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StarTopic Future Nintendo Hardware & Technology Speculation & Discussion |ST| (Read the staff posts before commenting!)
- Thread starter Dakhil
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lemonfresh
#Team2024
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I think zippo stuff is banned from this siteGrain of salt and all that.
We know 3D Mario on Switch 2 is a near-certainty (duh). Talks about "open world" approach for the next 3D Mario game.
Report: 2024 Is The Year Of Nintendo EPD Tokyo.
Hello again! I've been working on this report for a good while now, getting things sourced, making sure everything lined up and all. Given...zippospeaks.blogspot.com
Here we go. I know only a few things at this moment in time.
-Firstly, it's going to be our very first open world 3D Mario game. Given Zelda and Pokemon have taken the plunge, it was only a matter of time before the portly plumber did as well.
-This game will NOT be a sequel to Odyssey, so if you were expecting that, don't. This is going in an entirely different direction.
-I've been told the game looks "Absolutely jaw dropping." If you thought Mario Vs. Donkey Kong looked good, then you haven't seen anything yet. EPD Tokyo are about to blow people's fuckin' minds yet again.
-Lastly, this will be THE GAME for Nintendo next year. Mario will be a day one Switch 2 game, and I would bet serious amounts of money that this will be the very first game that we will see running on their shiny new system. This will be the first 3D Mario game to be a launch title since 1996's Super Mario 64, which means this is a big freaking deal. Expect a very strong launch lineup from Nintendo and third parties alike.
darthdiablo
+5 Death Stare
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I did not realize that. What's the backstory?
JR436
Probably looks better in a dress.
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- He
They're a proven charlatan.
You can read them for a laugh but their track record is near non-existent.
I don't know about banned, but zippo is a know liar. think he only had one good leak, but everything since was made up
eye0h
"aggressively persue a multiplatform strategy"
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For fun.
Concernt
Optimism is non-negotiable
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Peach's castle changes so, so often, it's kind of surprising they're going with that design and could be evidence of team crossover. But it's a stretch.
Thraktor
"[✄]. [✄]. [✄]. [✄]." -Microsoft
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Job Openings - Careers at Nintendo of America
CONTRACT - Senior Data Scientist (NTD), Software Developmentcareers.nintendo.com
I want to come back to this, because I think there are a few things worth going into further detail on.
Firstly, I can't come up with any plausible explanation for why Nintendo would be working on machine learning approaches to computer vision that doesn't involve their new console, which is the first with dedicated ML acceleration hardware, having some kind of camera, whether built in or as an accessory. Conceivably they could have decided to restart their mobile efforts with a focus on ML-assisted augmented reality, but ML acceleration in mobile chipsets is spotty, so they'd be exclusively targeting recent high-end phones, and it would be an astonishing coincidence for them to do so at the same time as they're launching a console with dedicated ML hardware.
It could be an accessory, but with how cheap basic camera modules are now, I suspect that adding the necessary hardware to connect a camera accessory would be almost as expensive as just adding the camera itself.
One point brought up regarding the inclusion of a camera is the fact that the T239 has removed hardware that T234 (Orin) uses to interface with cameras, specifically the NVCSI, VI & ISP blocks. However, reading up on the specifications of these blocks, it seems more likely they were removed due to being complete overkill for any possible camera application on the new Switch, rather than saying anything about the likelihood of the new Switch actually having a camera.
To explain, CSI is a standard interface for cameras, used in things like smartphones and cars. It's part of the MIPI set of standards, and supports two different physical interfaces, D-PHY, which allows long cable lengths but relatively low speeds, and C-PHY, which offers higher speeds but shorter cable lengths. Nvidia supports CSI 2.1 on Orin, and because it's designed for self-driving cars, it needs to handle a lot of data from a lot of cameras (and also needs to support many different types of camera). The NVCSI, VI and ISP blocks work together to get the image data from those cameras and make them available to software.
The NVCSI block specifically handles the actual interface with the cameras, and it takes the data in packets through either a D-PHY or C-PHY interface, decodes them, and sends the pixel data along to the two VI blocks. VI here stands for Video Input, and each of these takes the pixel data from the NVCSI block, converts the format into one which is useable by software, and puts it memory. The ISP, which stands for Image Signal Processor, isn't well documented, but it appears to work alongside the VI blocks performing things like format conversion.
All together, these blocks support a lot of functionality, and an enormous amount of bandwidth. The figures depend a lot on the formats used and so forth, but at a peak, the NVCSI, VI and ISP blocks can process over 160 Gb/s of camera data. As a point of comparison, the highest camera bandwidth I could reasonably see a new Switch requiring would be from a pair of 1080p/60Hz cameras at 12bpp. That comes to around 1.5 Gb/s of data. At the lower end of expectations, a single 720p/30Hz camera at 8bpp would come to around 0.2 Gb/s. The camera hardware on Orin isn't just overkill for a new Switch, it's absurd overkill. Even if Nintendo really go to town on AR, they'd struggle to use 1% of the capabilities of the hardware.
Now, I would have said that perhaps Nintendo could use a customised, scaled down version of the NVCSI, VI and ISP blocks, but I don't know how viable that would be given the difference in performance and functionality requirements. After all, Nintendo wouldn't need the flexibility of Orin's hardware, which needs to support almost every camera module available. Nintendo would only need to support the specific feature set of whatever camera module they use, which could lead to a much simpler interface. If Nintendo did require camera connectivity as part of T239, then my guess is that they would go with a completely separate, small fixed function interface, perhaps just licensing the IP for it, rather than having Nvidia design something in-house.
This doesn't necessarily mean that T239 does have camera interface hardware on it, but I'm not convinced that the lack of blocks like NVCSI is evidence that it doesn't, as they would never have been suitable for a device like the Switch in any case.
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qwerp
Moblin
EPD is probably the one on Peach, but "the castle looks the same" as proof is so ridiculous!
He's full of shit., through and through.
D
Deleted member 5146
Guest
The day a Zippo leak turns out to be legitimate is the day it stops raining in Ireland
darthdiablo
+5 Death Stare
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Consider myself educated. I'll go back and edit the other comment to say he's not trustworthy (or something to that effect)
Danny
Like Like
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Also suspect that according to Zippo EPD Tokyo was making Peach Showtime, Mario open world 3D game for Switch 2, Donkey Kong game for the Switch 2 and helping out on Mario vs Donkey kong development at the same time according to Zippo. Seems very unlikely, EPD Tokyo isn't that big.
AiXeno
Rattata
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- He/Him
I really want to believe this as I believe that launching with a 3D Mario tile will a great game plan for Nintendo however it's coming from zippo so I give it a 50/50 chance of it happening.Grain of salt and all that.
We know 3D Mario on Switch 2 is a near-certainty (duh). Talks about "open world" approach for the next 3D Mario game.
Report: 2024 Is The Year Of Nintendo EPD Tokyo.
Hello again! I've been working on this report for a good while now, getting things sourced, making sure everything lined up and all. Given...
Here we go. I know only a few things at this moment in time.
-Firstly, it's going to be our very first open world 3D Mario game. Given Zelda and Pokemon have taken the plunge, it was only a matter of time before the portly plumber did as well.
-This game will NOT be a sequel to Odyssey, so if you were expecting that, don't. This is going in an entirely different direction.
-I've been told the game looks "Absolutely jaw dropping." If you thought Mario Vs. Donkey Kong looked good, then you haven't seen anything yet. EPD Tokyo are about to blow people's fuckin' minds yet again.
-Lastly, this will be THE GAME for Nintendo next year. Mario will be a day one Switch 2 game, and I would bet serious amounts of money that this will be the very first game that we will see running on their shiny new system. This will be the first 3D Mario game to be a launch title since 1996's Super Mario 64, which means this is a big freaking deal. Expect a very strong launch lineup from Nintendo and third parties alike.
Concernt
Optimism is non-negotiable
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- She/Her
boomersooner2000
Cappy
What are the capabilities of the A78C ARM Cortex CPU that is rumored to be on Drake? As a RISC processor, can it be competitive with a Zen2 processor. Just curious as I find it fascinating to review opinions regarding the capabilities of Drake.
GPKs3
Koopa
I think MK1 has a great shot as well, especially with the reception of the current Switch version.
ItWasMeantToBe19
Manakete
RE Computer Vision: If Foveated Rendering could ever be achieved on a handheld, that would be super game changing.
Let's assume that the display resolution for the future for consoles is 4K and for handhelds it's 1080p and consoles target an internal rendering resolution of 1080p moving forward while handhelds target an internal rendering resolution of 540p. 540p from 1080p is still a 4x savings.
But let's say that Foveated Rendering got good enough on handhelds to not have to display 75% of the information in a game.
Then we're looking at a 16x GPU savings for handhelds!
Obviously CPU issues here still (and A LOT of docked issues for the Switch in particular), but it's so intriguing as a potential future.
Let's assume that the display resolution for the future for consoles is 4K and for handhelds it's 1080p and consoles target an internal rendering resolution of 1080p moving forward while handhelds target an internal rendering resolution of 540p. 540p from 1080p is still a 4x savings.
But let's say that Foveated Rendering got good enough on handhelds to not have to display 75% of the information in a game.
Then we're looking at a 16x GPU savings for handhelds!
Obviously CPU issues here still (and A LOT of docked issues for the Switch in particular), but it's so intriguing as a potential future.
Concernt
Optimism is non-negotiable
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Clock for clock, it could be comparable, but in reality, given power constraints and design, and all that, it's likely to be not quite next gen.
If say, Xbox One X's CPU is 1%, and Xbox Series S is 100%, NG Switch sits at around 60-80%.
Enough for most games not to worry too much, but not in quite the same ballpark as next gen home consoles.
ZaSpai
#TheProcess is now in process
There was the whole situation about a Tribonian account and then a NotZippo account in the most recent Direct thread. Can't remember if staff felt or knew that the NotZippo account was definitely an alt (the manner in which Tribonian posted implied it was Zippo or at the very least a rather... passionate Zippo sympathiser) but regardless the NotZippo account was permabanned for being completely off on their 'leaks'.
Sadly I'm not super tech inclined to dive into the conversation about chip sizes / CPU and GPU etc (happy to just browse to keep up) but I continue to await the Succ™ with optimism.
goudsoup
Rattata
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- Any
I'm not a tech/industry person by any means so please excuse me if I'm asking something totally out of pocket; but would this job listing be representative of any ongoing efforts related to Switch NG? If the system is really 6~12 months away, I imagine they would've gotten Data Scientists much earlier for this role. Is it possible that they've been relying on Nvidia's specialists up until this point and are now in need of an 'in-house' expert to handle developer inquiries and stuff?
ItWasMeantToBe19
Manakete
It could be for the Switch 3 or for a specific game or games.
RingFit 2 is the most obvious game where computer vision would come into play, but utilizing computer vision to execute Kinect like gameplay with either much lower camera costs or much greater accuracy makes a lot of sense in general.
darthdiablo
+5 Death Stare
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- he/him
So.. this person actually made an account using "NotZippo"?
Lmao... Thanks for providing links to the backstory. Yikes.
OP
OP
One topic for our spare time, please take it with a grain of salt.
Another Korean source also said that T239 is produced at 7LPH (8LPH+). Also it seems to think that the TSMC 5nm rumor is a leftover from Atlan.
루머] T239(Switch2 SoC) 스펙 - 미코
T239 Swich 2 SoC 8x A78 1 클러스터 그래서 A78C(8cx gen3와 유사)를 사용했습니다. 1536SP Ampere 8LPP는 항상 저렴했습니다 이미지 출처 : https://patchwork.ozlabs.org/project/linux-tegra/patch/2022090515575...meeco.kr
스위치2 soc 루머는 대환장 파티네요 - 미코
https://www.reddit.com/r/GamingLeaksAndRumours/comments/16jzupb/rumored_switch_2_t239_chip_is_rumored_to_be_in/ 링크드인 정보 들고와서 5NM 노드, TSMC, 2.653GHZ 주장하지 않나(이건 취소된 NVIDIA DRIVE At...
Except Nvidia explicitly said Orin was fabricated using Samsung's 8 nm* process node during Hot Chips 34.
(I mention this, because there's a false rumour that Orin's fabricated using Samsung's 7LPH process node as shown below. And by the way, Samsung's 7LPH process node doesn't officially exist.)
* → a marketing nomenclature used by all foundry companies
Also, the same person that said T239's fabricated using Samsung's 7LPH (8LPH+) process node also said that the RTX 30 GPUs were fabricated using Samsung's 8LPH process node. (And by the way, Samsung's 8LPH process node doesn't officially exist.)
Thraktor
"[✄]. [✄]. [✄]. [✄]." -Microsoft
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A job listing doesn't necessarily mean that they're only just starting work on this. They likely have an existing team that has been working on this kind of thing for a while, and are either increasing the size of the team or someone left and needs to be replaced. A contract position like this could be because they feel the need for extra staff to get everything done in time for launch, or it could just be covering for someone on maternity leave or something like that.
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Spoilering this to not derail with a wall of text:
I've posted this a few times before, sorry if it seems like I'm being a broken record but for the sake of newer people being filled in:
In addition to what others pointed out, he developed a tendency to use his blog to trash talk this community back when it was a part of ResetERA, and continued trashing us once Famiboards was created. He tends to take arrogant victory laps around those who doubt his claims when stuff happens that could be seen as lining up with his guesses, and he tends to piggyback off of other people like Nate or Emily and then will write up blog posts insisting that actually he got that info waaaaay before they did, etc.
And one of the most surprising things I saw him do was when a DK thread was started here on Fami and people in the thread were discussing stuff about potential new DK games, he went on an angry tirade on his blog, even naming specific Fami users from that thread and cussing them out for stuff they were saying about upcoming or cancelled DK games simply because what they were saying didn't line up with the DK stuff he had already "leaked," acting like by talking about what they heard they were somehow usurping his authority or something.
So regardless of what he may or may not have known in the past, or what he may or may not have gotten "right" with his guesses and piggybacks, the dude has it out for this community and actively attacks us when he sees a chance. He is not a good source for leaks and just generally not a good internet personality, full stop.
That's why I tend to dish whenever he's brought up. I hate coming across like I'm dogpiling or something, but I feel like a lot of people only know about him because his "leaks" get picked up by the gaming press, and have no idea the kind of trash he's thrown around, including at us.
In addition to what others pointed out, he developed a tendency to use his blog to trash talk this community back when it was a part of ResetERA, and continued trashing us once Famiboards was created. He tends to take arrogant victory laps around those who doubt his claims when stuff happens that could be seen as lining up with his guesses, and he tends to piggyback off of other people like Nate or Emily and then will write up blog posts insisting that actually he got that info waaaaay before they did, etc.
And one of the most surprising things I saw him do was when a DK thread was started here on Fami and people in the thread were discussing stuff about potential new DK games, he went on an angry tirade on his blog, even naming specific Fami users from that thread and cussing them out for stuff they were saying about upcoming or cancelled DK games simply because what they were saying didn't line up with the DK stuff he had already "leaked," acting like by talking about what they heard they were somehow usurping his authority or something.
So regardless of what he may or may not have known in the past, or what he may or may not have gotten "right" with his guesses and piggybacks, the dude has it out for this community and actively attacks us when he sees a chance. He is not a good source for leaks and just generally not a good internet personality, full stop.
That's why I tend to dish whenever he's brought up. I hate coming across like I'm dogpiling or something, but I feel like a lot of people only know about him because his "leaks" get picked up by the gaming press, and have no idea the kind of trash he's thrown around, including at us.
darthdiablo
+5 Death Stare
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Nice summary. A question for you - I'm not well versed with nvidia architectures in general (only passing knowledge).
Do we have any reason to believe those tweets by harukaze5719 and/or Tech_Reve was talking in context of Nintendo, Switch 2, T239, etc? Because from what I see it looks like they're simply talking about Orin GPU so I'm trying to figure out why people took this to be in context of Switch 2 or T239?
It seems an article (already linked to in this particular discussion thread earlier) used those tweets for the reasoning Switch 2 has 1280 CUDA cores (which we know that's not the case, it's 1536 according to NVN2 source code), but I'm struggling to figure out the connection between tweets seemingly talking about Orin GPU to lead to saying Switch 2 SoC has 1280 CUDA cores.
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Don't those wattages roughly line up (the first two especially) with the Switch 1's power consumption docked and undocked?
I noticed miamoto mentions how we need to use 64 FP cores per SM/CU because graphics rendering need integer cores too, so we can't use the full 128 cores each SM provides in Ampere. But what about CUs for GCN/RDNA/etc? They only have 64 stream processors each, right? Can they each do both a floating point and an integer operation at once in parallel?
Concernt
Optimism is non-negotiable
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Yes indeed!
Based on that, and the power consumption we'd expect from a 4N T239, I still expect power consumption to be similar or identical to the Nintendo Switch (launch model). This has a tonne of implications (that I also, admit my bias, happen to like), like using the same charger, dock compatibility, and the fact it could be really quite slim (no thicker than the existing Nintendo Switch).
I think the statements around a "larger" next gen Switch are misguided, in a way, because T239 at 4N would have a size closer to (and I believe smaller than) the die size of Tegra X1+ in the OLED Model. It could also be more integrated, as it's purpose built, and so a more integrated, smaller SOC likely means a more compact motherboard. Assuming the cooling system stays the same size in absolute volume, we could be looking at a device with a smaller motherboard and a smaller cooling system relative to the size of the system, since it also has to house a 7.91" display. Ergo, I propose that a larger battery is indeed very likely, because frankly there is going to be plenty of space, and targeting OLED Model battery life with the power consumption of the original Nintendo Switch could be possible with modern battery densities in a case that big.
justanotherperson
Octorok
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robertman2
Chain Chomp
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Concernt
Optimism is non-negotiable
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It'll have been 4 years since the last Animal Crossing, 6 since the last Smash, and 9 years since the last 2D Zelda.
Those are all pretty normal, if not quite long, gaps between games. I think people forget JUST HOW LONG the Switch generation has lasted.
For Smash and Splatoon, since their support cycles appear to be running up against NG Switch's launch, I expect them to get NG patches, though I could see smaller releases, like a "Melee 4K" or "Splatoon Classic" release in the first two years of NG Switch.
eye0h
"aggressively persue a multiplatform strategy"
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Concernt
Optimism is non-negotiable
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FE4RE has been on such a rollercoaster of development. I've heard it's been in development since Shadows of Valentia launched.
My key hopes for it are that it launches on NG, even if it's cross gen, and that it includes all of Thracia 776.
I'm going to make an educated guess then what was probably going on here ... they were testing a virtual hardware (probably a Ampere laptop chip) that was designed to basically mimic the Switch 2.
No duh, but what's the significance there.
I would say that "virtual hardware" is likely what was being sent to Nintendo from Nvidia so that Nintendo would begin and/or ramp up Switch 2 software development in the summer of 2021.
Because even if you're launching in 2024 ... games can't be made in just 18-24 months any more. You would need at least 3 years of hard development time probably with a year before that of conceptual game planning.
So if I had to guess I would say Nvidia created a virtual hardware base for Nintendo to use and were testing it on those power envelopes/clocks because that is around what the Switch 2 will be and need to know that stuff if you're developing a game (ie: what is my performance budget on hardware for this 3D Mario level? What resolution can I use? Frame rate? How many characters on screen? Is it going to handle the physics engine we need? Etc. etc. etc.).
So I would be surprised if those test clocks correspond fairly closely to the final Switch 2 product.
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Always be wary of people saying they have leaks from Nintendo's EAD/EPD teams.
I've followed Nintendo for a long, long time, no one has ever really leaked any of their game projects with any accuracy.
You can maybe get a leak if it's a Nintendo 2nd party studio like perhaps a Mercury Steam ... but Nintendo internally ... good luck.
NintenDuvo
Bob-omb
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- He him
I see everyone is at that point we were all at July 2016 when the details about what the NX(Nintendo Switch) was leaked and wanted this thing to be revealed, because we tired of all the rumors lol but difference back then to now was at least we knew that the officially NX was already real and coming
ItWasMeantToBe19
Manakete
LiC
Member
I think that rumor is very obviously fake. We don't know what Activision discussed with Nintendo in December 2022, all we know is that Kotick had a conference call with Furukawa, ahead of which Activision internally prepared an executive summary of "Switch NG" information. That could be information they believed or expected to be the case. Or it could be not information about the hardware itself, but mostly their own talking points about what they planned and wanted to do with it as a publisher.
One thing I am certain of is that "Switch NG" is merely Activision's own terminology. Nintendo would never refer to future hardware as "Switch _______" when communicating with third parties, whether or not the new hardware was conceived as a Switch model. And we already know that "NG" is not the standalone codename for the new hardware, as the supposed leak post claims.
OP
OP
Probably not. But I do wonder if harukaze5719 and Tech_Reve are getting the process node rumour(s) from meeco.kr.
AiXeno
Rattata
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There could be a couple of possibilities of what could be at the switch successor first two years:
- Something from Monolith Soft (New IP/Xenoblade X remaster)
- Something from platinum(Astral chain 2/new IP)
- The rumored Fire Emblem 4 remake
- The Wind Waker and twilight Princess remasters
- Something from Pokémon(New Gen/ black and white remakes)
Blue Monty
Inkling
- Pronouns
- he/him
Games that have already been in development for Switch wont gain a lot by going exclusives and the ones that have been in development for Switch 2 and is worth making them exclusive probably only started development in recent years so in most cases they will take a while to release (at least 1-2 years) bar something like 3D Mario which probably was planned to release during launch year since day 0 allowing it to make it.
Giancarlo
Nintendo connoiseur
i dont need to be insider to state the obvious,is obvious the next 3D Mario will be semi/open world, just look at Bowser Fury(that a proof of(edit: learned Zippo is not to be trusted and is permabanned from here, so treat this accordingly)
Grain of salt and all that.
We know 3D Mario on Switch 2 is a near-certainty (duh). Talks about "open world" approach for the next 3D Mario game.
Report: 2024 Is The Year Of Nintendo EPD Tokyo.
Hello again! I've been working on this report for a good while now, getting things sourced, making sure everything lined up and all. Given...
Here we go. I know only a few things at this moment in time.
-Firstly, it's going to be our very first open world 3D Mario game. Given Zelda and Pokemon have taken the plunge, it was only a matter of time before the portly plumber did as well.
-This game will NOT be a sequel to Odyssey, so if you were expecting that, don't. This is going in an entirely different direction.
-I've been told the game looks "Absolutely jaw dropping." If you thought Mario Vs. Donkey Kong looked good, then you haven't seen anything yet. EPD Tokyo are about to blow people's fuckin' minds yet again.
-Lastly, this will be THE GAME for Nintendo next year. Mario will be a day one Switch 2 game, and I would bet serious amounts of money that this will be the very first game that we will see running on their shiny new system. This will be the first 3D Mario game to be a launch title since 1996's Super Mario 64, which means this is a big freaking deal. Expect a very strong launch lineup from Nintendo and third parties alike.
concept how the next 3D Mario could be)
Wouldn't say it's obvious just because of that imo. It could go any direction.
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