StarTopic Future Nintendo Hardware & Technology Speculation & Discussion |ST| (Read the staff posts before commenting!)

[Giancarlo]

That's for the Devs to decide. If there's an input there that's a problem, don't make it react to a light touch. The "default" press would still be the current "press in", just with the option to detect a light touch. Say a racing game where you wanna just inch forward, the Xbox Series X has a controller with a super sensitive trigger, the slightest bit of pressure and it registers an input. This is a way to replicate that response, if Devs want to, in a smaller package.

maybe it would depend on the pressure done on the trigger, the developers could program the action of a game like pressing the left trigger like L/R, ZR/ZL with enough or low presure will make the character shoot the bow/action with more effectiness, kinda like the DualSense do with the bow weapons in Horizon Forbiben West

 

[TomNookYankees]

You could also lock the scrolling mechanism for certain games.

The touchpad shoulder buttons @Concernt suggested would work much better because an actual scroll wheel would have to take up a lot of space inside the controller to fit an entire wheel instead of just shoulder buttons.

 

[Dakhil]

 

[Ghostsonplanets]

This is actually very interesting affirmation from Intel. In the past, industry pundits said that Intel Foundry cost structure wasn't comparable to TSMC. IFS saying that they're pricing it comparable to TSMC is a very big claim and shows that they're very bullish about their node competitiveness with TSMC N2. If Intel truly delivers, we might see the emergence of another TSMC competitor and one that is much more competitive compared with Samsung Foundry (SFS) current position.

 

[ReddDreadtheLead]

This is actually very interesting affirmation from Intel. In the past, industry pundits said that Intel Foundry cost structure wasn't comparable to TSMC. IFS saying that they're pricing it comparable to TSMC is a very big claim and shows that they're very bullish about their node competitiveness with TSMC N2. If Intel truly delivers, we might see the emergence of another TSMC competitor and one that is much more competitive compared with Samsung Foundry (SFS) current position.

And is also fairly competent most of the time.


As for the discussion of Scroll Wheels, I don’t think those would end up being actual wheels. But, I do think it’ll be a touch sensitive shoulder button that you just rub it from one direction to the other (so left or right) and feel the feedback from the haptics that exist in the controller. Each item produces a haptic response in the “wheel”





It’s going to be hard for some but I’ll try for others:
If anyone here has an iPhone, go to your home screen. At the bottom of the screen there’s a little “search”.

If you have multiple screens so to speak, as in enough apps to have more than one home screen, you can do this thing I’m going to describe.

Ok, back to the home screen, go the the page to the right, notice the “search” now becomes “•••••”, slide your thumb on it from left to right and you basically scroll across all your screens but that feeling from the haptics is what I’d expect from scroll wheels. Do it like you’re scratching the screen.

A digital scroll wheel in a sense.


Not actual mechanical wheels.


(This seems complicated but trust me it’s not that complicated)

 

[kvetcha]

And is also fairly competent most of the time.


As for the discussion of Scroll Wheels, I don’t think those would end up being actual wheels. But, I do think it’ll be a touch sensitive shoulder button that you just rub it from one direction to the other (so left or right) and feel the feedback from the haptics that exist in the controller. Each item produces a haptic response in the “wheel”





It’s going to be hard for some but I’ll try for others:
If anyone here has an iPhone, go to your home screen. At the bottom of the screen there’s a little “search”.

If you have multiple screens so to speak, as in enough apps to have more than one home screen, you can do this thing I’m going to describe.

Ok, back to the home screen, go the the page to the right, notice the “search” now becomes “•••••”, slide your thumb on it from left to right and you basically scroll across all your screens but that feeling from the haptics is what I’d expect from scroll wheels. Do it like you’re scratching the screen.

A digital scroll wheel in a sense.


Not actual mechanical wheels.


(This seems complicated but trust me it’s not that complicated)

The Taptic Engine Apple uses to accomplish this and their solid state trackpads is fairly sizable and complex, though, and is custom-designed and manufactured by Apple for each product based on the structure and materials at play. It’s a major design investment.

 

[Deleted member 887]

Me too, the Dualsense rumble is miles ahead and what HD Rumble was supposed to be.

How many games are there that even took advantage of HD Rumble?

They're (almost) identical technologies - both are linear actuators, and IIRC it's an identical part. The primary difference is likely just that - games actually using it.

The DualSense also has a speaker, which I imagine can be used to supplement some of the frequency ranges.

Edited to update: Quick google says I misremember, it's the Oculus Touch that uses an identical LRA to the one in the Joy-Cons

 

[LitKai]

4K Rumble

 

[ILikeFeet]

how much of dualsense's rumble motors feel better because of the size of the motors?

 

[Dakhil]

Me too, the Dualsense rumble is miles ahead and what HD Rumble was supposed to be.

Well, part of the reason is that the DualSense vibration motor is physically larger than the HD Rumble.

So although I do expect improvements to the HD Rumble, I don't expect the improvements to the HD Rumble is going to amount to being on par with the DualSense vibration motors.

 

[Deleted member 4629]

How many games are there that even took advantage of HD Rumble? Because the only one I can think of is that one Senran Kagura game. Iykyk

I remember that Super Mario Odyssey used it for some moons. 1-2 Switch used it too, remember the ice cubes?

 

[ADR91]

How many games are there that even took advantage of HD Rumble? Because the only one I can think of is that one Senran Kagura game. Iykyk

I own WRC 9 and WRC 10 on my Switch. Visually those games don't look very good, but I have to say their implementation of HD rumble is truly remarkable, providing a good feel for the kind of surface you're driving on, for when you're about to loose grip and so on. Much more so than the rumble of my Xbox controller in WRC Generations.

I think I might have come across another game whose implementation of HD Rumble equally impressed me, but I can't remember which game it was right now.

 

[ReddDreadtheLead]

The Taptic Engine Apple uses to accomplish this and their solid state trackpads is fairly sizable and complex, though, and is custom-designed and manufactured by Apple for each product based on the structure and materials at play. It’s a major design investment.

I know, it also takes into account the design of the device and the material used for the device.

But i wasn’t describing a haptic engine in an apple device like for them to make one comparable to that, I was describing what a scroll wheel would likely be as a digital wheel rather than a mechanical wheel to make use of the Haptic Engine.

Think… ice cubes from 1-2 Switch but applied to be used by a touch sensitive shoulder button.

As I don’t see a mechanical system being used here and in all honesty, that might be limiting to game design. A set amount of scrolls for example as it can’t go all the way. But only partly. Unless it’s a literally wheel. Then how do you measure the distance? You’d need more for accommodating the scroll wheel if mechanical over a digital wheel.

I’d also question it getting debris inside it…

 

[Giancarlo]

Well, part of the reason is that the DualSense vibration motor is physically larger than the HD Rumble.

So although I do expect improvements to the HD Rumble, I don't expect the improvements to the HD Rumble is going to amount to being on par with the DualSense vibration motors.

fun fact, the same company that suplied the tecnology for HD Rumble, also suplied the tecnology for the tactic feedback on DualSense, so based on that is very likely Nintendo is gonna partner again for this company to supply a more advance version of HD Rumble in the controller of it next hardware

 

[Giancarlo]

I remember that Super Mario Odyssey used it for some moons. 1-2 Switch used it too, remember the ice cubes?

Metroid Dread has some pretty good use of HD Rumble

 

[Deleted member 4629]

Metroid Dread has some pretty good use of HD Rumble

Ah, i can't testify that. Haven't played that one. But i believe you.

 

[LukasManak22]

I am pretty sure every single EPD game is using HD Rumble, even ports. Tears of the Kingdom is latest example and works well.

 

[ReddDreadtheLead]

Does Scarlet and Violet use it

 

[Pokemaniac]

Does Scarlet and Violet use it

Probably in the raids? At this point I often don't notice HD rumble super consciously.

 

[goldrogerii]

Does Scarlet and Violet use it

Yeah for the rideable Pokémon

 

[Kingpin Rogers]

I literally never notice the rumble whether it's on PS5 or on Switch. It's just not something that registers with me at all.

 

[goldrogerii]

Best use of HD rumble for me is probably Mario Odyssey.

 

[D36]

Metroid Dread has some pretty good use of HD Rumble

I don't remember any instances of HD Rumble in that game. Then again, I always play with the Pro Controller.

 

[ReddDreadtheLead]

I don't remember any instances of HD Rumble in that game. Then again, I always play with the Pro Controller.

Pro Controller has the engine that’s in the Joycons, and you barely feel the rumble in that relative to the joycons.

Size does matter in this case, and they can’t just slot in a bigger one I think, or it causes more dev issues since they operate differently.

 

[Dakhil]

Linus Sebastian from Linus Tech Tips takes a closer look at Frore Systems' AirJet cooling systems during Computex 2023.

 

[Cuzizkool]

Linus Sebastian from Linus Tech Tips takes a closer look at Frore Systems' AirJet cooling systems during Computex 2023.

Neat! Too late for Drake, but possible for a Drake Pro? Sounds like a Drake Pro could be thinner and still clocked higher without even a die shrink if it used this, though they would probably still do a shrink for battery life.

 

[sandgomez]

Hello guys, it's my first post here, and my English is bad (Sorry about that), I am a software developer in real world but not game developer / hardware specialist, I would like to share some thoughts with you and would love to know your opinion about this hypothetical scenary for the REDACTED:

6 A78C Cores
1 Reserved for the OS

5 available to developers with lots of profiles / combinations

1 - using 5 cores at 1.8GHZ
2 - using 4 cores at 2.0 GHZ
3 - using 3 cores at 2.2 GHZ

GPU - 1024 Cuda cores

600ghz portable/ 1200ghz docked

128 Tensor flow Cores
64 Ray trace cores

So here we sacrifice Cuda cores in benefit of having more tensor flow / ray tracing and having more GHZ even handheld mode


The ideia of this version of REDACTED would be 1080p display and 4k up to 60fps docked

Another main point would be give developers flexibility choosing Better use of CPU Usage, choosing even how much cores to use in benefit of having more clock power

Thinking about a game like tears of the kingdom in which even overlocked OLD switches are able to run the game in 60fps, I thing that a patch for this version of the REDACTED would be very possible to hit 1080p 60fps with improved textures and upscaled to 4K docked using DLSS

Another cool feature would be allowing developers to choose the base resolution of the game and choosing how the game would scale, for example:

• run base game at 1080p 60fps and using DLSS to push only resolution to 4K
• run base game at 1080p at 30fps and using DLSS to push both resolution to 4K and generate frames
• run base game at 720p 60fps and using DLSS to push resolution to 1080p in portable mode and push 2k / 4k in docked

What do you guys think about that?

 

[ILikeFeet]

Hello guys, it's my first post here, and my English is bad (Sorry about that), I am a software developer in real world but not game developer / hardware specialist, I would like to share some thoughts with you and would love to know your opinion about this hypothetical scenary for the REDACTED:

6 A78C Cores
1 Reserved for the OS

5 available to developers with lots of profiles / combinations

1 - using 5 cores at 1.8GHZ
2 - using 4 cores at 2.0 GHZ
3 - using 3 cores at 2.2 GHZ

GPU - 1024 Cuda cores

600ghz portable/ 1200ghz docked

128 Tensor flow Cores
64 Ray trace cores

So here we sacrifice Cuda cores in benefit of having more tensor flow / ray tracing and having more GHZ even handheld mode


The ideia of this version of REDACTED would be 1080p display and 4k up to 60fps docked

Another main point would be give developers flexibility choosing Better use of CPU Usage, choosing even how much cores to use in benefit of having more clock power

Thinking about a game like tears of the kingdom in which even overlocked OLD switches are able to run the game in 60fps, I thing that a patch for this version of the REDACTED would be very possible to hit 1080p 60fps with improved textures and upscaled to 4K docked using DLSS

Another cool feature would be allowing developers to choose the base resolution of the game and choosing how the game would scale, for example:

• run base game at 1080p 60fps and using DLSS to push only resolution to 4K
• run base game at 1080p at 30fps and using DLSS to push both resolution to 4K and generate frames
• run base game at 720p 60fps and using DLSS to push resolution to 1080p in portable mode and push 2k / 4k in docked

What do you guys think about that?

more rt cores don't improve rt performance by much. RT isn't bound much by RT task, but pixel shading. more tensor cores might improve dlss performance, though

with the way games are threaded, fewer faster cores might not allow for good experiences on the dev side. having the most amount of cores available at all times and as fast as you can get them is the better trade off

 

[Dakhil]

Once Mighty Intel Struggles to Escape ‘Mud Hole’

Rivals such as Nvidia have left the chip company far behind. CEO Pat Gelsinger aims to reverse firm’s fortunes by vastly expanding its factories.

www.wsj.com

⋮
Mobile-phone chip giant Qualcomm and carmaker Tesla have explored having Intel produce chips for them, then backed off, according to executives involved in the discussions. Elon Musk's Tesla passed because Intel couldn't provide extensive chip-design services that other major foundries offer, one of those people said. Qualcomm dialed back after technical missteps by Intel, according to some of those involved in the interaction. Gelsinger declined to comment on Intel's relationships with Qualcomm and Tesla.
⋮

⋮
Qualcomm, which designs chips and outsources manufacturing, wanted to work with Intel, and assigned a team of engineers to work toward making mobile-phone chips at Intel's factories. It was particularly interested in a cutting-edge chip-making technology that Intel hopes will be the most advanced in the world by late next year.

In early 2022, Intel's foundry arm sent a delegation to Qualcomm's San Diego headquarters, where they met with CEO Cristiano Amon. Then Intel missed a June performance milestone toward producing those chips commercially. It missed another in December.

Qualcomm executives concluded Intel would struggle making the kind of cellphone chips they wanted, even if it succeeded in making high-performance processors. Qualcomm told Intel it was pausing work while it waits for Intel to show progress, according to people involved in the discussions.

He said Intel has been more focused on chip-making technology that works in high-performance processors like those used in PCs. Making chips for mobile phones with limited battery lives requires new skills and new circuit designs. Intel said recently it is collaborating with Arm, a chip-design company that specializes in cellphone circuits.

Tesla in late 2021 began considering Intel for making chips to process data and images that help cars drive autonomously. Tesla has long been a customer of Samsung's foundry business, and also has begun using TSMC. Tesla designs the chips, but needs foundries to help get them ready for production—something Intel wasn't able to offer.

Gelsinger declined to discuss talks with Tesla. He said handling such work is a new area for Intel, which isn't "naive about the challenges."
⋮

 

[Ghostsonplanets]

This will be a bit verbose and long, so I'm sorry in advance.

So, I was looking at Andrei testing of the Exynos 7420, an SoC manufactured on Samsung 14LPE that uses 4x A57(!), and stumbled upon this:

This is a graph that shows the Freq x Power of the Exynos A57. The most interesting thing about this is that Andrei actually showed us the power consumption for when 1,2,3 and 4 cores are loaded. We can see that 4 A57@1GHz (Same frequency of Switch TX1 A57 CCX) uses 1.16W. Disregarding some small amount of power which isn't being actually used by the A57 block (As Andrei points out in the article, he wasn't able to fully separate the A57 power consumption from others IP blocks or components like screen, so a small amount of energy is representative of those), we can round up these results to +- ~1W. Thanks to Apple A9 dual sourcing manufacturing from both Samsung 14LPP and TSMC 16FF, we know that Samsung node is denser while TSMC one is slightly more efficient(!).

Now take a look at this:

That's Mariko Switch Docked, per DF testing. They found that Mariko Switch draws from 5 - 7W while docked. And while I don't have portable results here, I can guess Switch portable should draw from 3 - 5W.

So, @Thraktor (And others), considering Mariko TX1 has a budget of 1W( Per Andrei findings) for the A57 block, and the Maxwell GPU IP should draw frow 1 - 5W (Portable lowest < - > Docked Max and I'm also assuming 1 - 2W should be for the uncore), do you think Drake being manufactured on TSMC 4N would be able to hit the same power consumption figures TX1 Mariko does? And what power budget and possible clocks a 8x A78 on 4N you think it would require? I know you did a power curve of the 8nm Orin GPU a while back, but are you able to do something similar for the Orin A78?

 

[ziggyrivers]

Once Mighty Intel Struggles to Escape ‘Mud Hole’

Rivals such as Nvidia have left the chip company far behind. CEO Pat Gelsinger aims to reverse firm’s fortunes by vastly expanding its factories.

www.wsj.com

What is wrong with Intel? They had promised Apple 10mm chips years ago, never did it and Apple had to start the Silicon project (even though I believe they were gonna do it anyways).

 

[MuddySeal]

Ok, back to the home screen, go the the page to the right, notice the “search” now becomes “•••••”, slide your thumb on it from left to right and you basically scroll across all your screens but that feeling from the haptics is what I’d expect from scroll wheels. Do it like you’re scratching the screen.

Ooooooh I absolutely love haptics.

 

[Ghostsonplanets]

What is wrong with Intel? They had promised Apple 10mm chips years ago, never did it and Apple had to start the Silicon project (even though I believe they were gonna do it anyways).

They actually did. Macbook Air 2019 used Intel Ice Lake 10nm chips. But what you said is true: Apple was expecting Intel 10nm in 2016 and refreshed their designs based on this. Intel couldn't deliver and Apple had to offer power hungry and hot Mac devices. When Intel finally delivered, it was barely better than 14nm and so limited that it only clocked up to ~4.2 GHz and was only offered in 4C max configuration.

 

[Dakhil]

Qualcomm says it's open to working with PlayStation and Nintendo about future portables

Could Qualcomm be open to the idea of working with PlayStation or Nintendo on their next gaming portable? Here's what it had to say.

www.trustedreviews.com

During a media roundtable event at Computex 2023, Qualcomm revealed that it has spoken to both PlayStation and Nintendo regarding future portable gaming devices.

"Those are companies [PlayStation and Nintendo] that are interested in having handheld gaming capabilities. So obviously they would reach out and talk to us," Alex Katouzian (Qualcomm’s Senior Vice President and General Manager of the Mobile, Compute and XR) said. "I think they, in general, will reach out to someone like Qualcomm because they know how big we are in Android gaming."
⋮

Can Qualcomm provide the complete hardware and software package comparable to what's currently offered by Nvidia? And does Nintendo really care about Android gaming?

The only benefit I could see by going with Qualcomm is having access to Nuvia's CPUs.

 

[D36]

Thoughts?

 

[ILikeFeet]

Qualcomm says it's open to working with PlayStation and Nintendo about future portables

Could Qualcomm be open to the idea of working with PlayStation or Nintendo on their next gaming portable? Here's what it had to say.

www.trustedreviews.com

Can Qualcomm provide the complete hardware and software package comparable to what's currently offered by Nvidia? And does Nintendo really care about Android gaming?

The only benefit I could see by going with Qualcomm is having access to Nuvia's CPUs.

Android wouldn't be in the equation. Qualcomm has the hardware, but the software support will be lacking, leading Nintendo to have to make everything themselves

the Q Lite can definitely use a qualcomm chip at least

 

[TomNookYankees]

Thoughts?

Certainly more correct than that Bometic weirdo who insists that nintendo's next hardware will be a completely different design/functionality than the switch.

 

[ReddDreadtheLead]

Certainly more correct than that Bometic weirdo who insists that nintendo's next hardware will be a completely different design/functionality than the switch.

Is this a SuperMetalDave reference

Still waiting on the AMD Polaris-based multi TFLOP Home Console

 

[D36]

Certainly more correct than that Bometic weirdo who insists that nintendo's next hardware will be a completely different design/functionality than the switch.

I was curious and I found this....



I already couldn't go through his last video, but to come to this conclusion from the Q&A is just baffling.

Also, Nintendo Soup? Really???? How are you using a third-party source as confirmation?????

 

[ReddDreadtheLead]

Nintendo Switch 2 will be a portable device who is limited in design due to being portable, because Nintendo will never abandon a portable system.


Ever.

So I’m sitting comfortably. It’ll be a Switch or a Switch-like or a Switch-lite.

There’s… not much else they can do with it anyway. Maybe a clamshell of sort, not dual screen in this case, but a unique one. Would still be a portable device of course.



Let’s not forget, the switch has a switching focus but it is still a portable console in the end. A small little thing.

 

[John Omaha]

The touchpad shoulder buttons @Concernt suggested would work much better because an actual scroll wheel would have to take up a lot of space inside the controller to fit an entire wheel instead of just shoulder buttons.

I’m cool with whatever gets us faster and more intuitive menu and target selection controls.

 

[Mobius]

I was curious and I found this....



I already couldn't go through his last video, but to come to this conclusion from the Q&A is just baffling.

Also, Nintendo Soup? Really???? How are you using a third-party source as confirmation?????

Least delusional Drake denier

 

[robertman2]

Gonna be real, I don't remember the last time I noticed HD Rumble in a game, and I'm like 95% it only exists so they can charge more for Joy-Cons

 

[MuddySeal]

There was so much room for improvement in splatoon for HD Rumble...

 

[Hermii]

Neat! Too late for Drake, but possible for a Drake Pro? Sounds like a Drake Pro could be thinner and still clocked higher without even a die shrink if it used this, though they would probably still do a shrink for battery life.

I'm just going to assume there won't be Drake pro. I spent to many hours of my life speculating about a Switch pro that never came lol.

 

[pelusilla6]

For next next-gen switch
https://www.techpowerup.com/309414/kioxia-sampling-new-ufs-ver-4-0

 

[eye0h]

Thoughts?

I mean yeah they're worried. Thats just how change as a concept in business works. Worried does not mean they aren't prepared.

 

[Stefan51278]

Thoughts?

I think worried is a strong word and too much here, but they are careful. They analyzed their past failures. I think they have a list of things they want to do/avoid with Switch Two and these things are most likely on the list:

Having a gimmick, which stops people from having a classic gaming experience
The Switch does motion controls, it does HD Rumble, it does an IR-Sensor, it does even have a touchscreen, but you can play Metroid Prime without all those things if you want, the gimmicks don't get in the way of a classic console experience.

No good launch lineup for the first year
They learned the hard way in the WiiU/3DS-generation what no games do to a platform. When they pushed the WiiU the 3DS got slower and vice versa, but the Wii U lacked behind anyway. Not only on launchday, you need a strong lineup for the first year to get a console up and running. A new 3D-Mario is a must in the first year when Zelda is already out of the picture.

Casual games are good, but in the first year you should sell to the core audience
On Switch more casual games got launched some years after the launch when most coregamers already had their console. The hard-core-gamer and Nintendofans are always buying first and they are multipliers, because they recommend the purchase of the console to other people, show them the device and the available games. I don't think Nintendo would start with Wii Sports in the package of a new console after they learned this lesson with the Wii.

Transition period shouldn't be too long, but don't forget your existing customers
The transition periods from Gamecube to Wii, from Wii to Wii U and from Wii U to Switch were too long. WiiU to Switch was disaster-mode and doesn't count that much for me, but Gamecube and Wii were established consoles and in the last year before the new device became available not many big games were released. I think this should be a smaller problem this time as they don't have a second platform in the market which also needs games, but they should use CrossGen for some games. Another solution would be buying some exclusive small and medium-sized games from outside studios. Make these games CrossGen and develop to suit old and new hardware, market these games in your Nintendo Directs. Don't give owners of a original Switch the feeling you forgot about them in 2024 when you sell them the hardware in 2023 for a really high price compared to the production price. Should also be a no-brainer when you don't have another platform in the market to pay the bills through the transition period until the new platform is established.

 

[Mirev]

I was curious and I found this....



I already couldn't go through his last video, but to come to this conclusion from the Q&A is just baffling.

Also, Nintendo Soup? Really???? How are you using a third-party source as confirmation?????

wtf did I watch?

 

[ziggyrivers]

They actually did. Macbook Air 2019 used Intel Ice Lake 10nm chips. But what you said is true: Apple was expecting Intel 10nm in 2016 and refreshed their designs based on this. Intel couldn't deliver and Apple had to offer power hungry and hot Mac devices. When Intel finally delivered, it was barely better than 14nm and so limited that it only clocked up to ~4.2 GHz and was only offered in 4C max configuration.

Thanks for the clarification. I was under the impression they never delivered xD

Transition period shouldn't be too long, but don't forget your existing customers

I feel like consoles could last longer because transition periods seem to be longer (PS4 to 5). I’m a bit worried that FFXVI will underperform, but we’ll see.