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StarTopic Future Nintendo Hardware & Technology Speculation & Discussion |ST| (Read the staff posts before commenting!)
- Thread starter Dakhil
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ItWasMeantToBe19
Manakete
Hypothetically yes, but the actual existing implementation of mesh shaders has often lead to performance drops unless you have just a huge amount of detail on screen. The Avatar devs said it took them forever to have mesh shaders run faster than traditional while many UE5 devs have complained on forums about how wildly expensive Nanite's upfront costs are performance wise and that it only makes up for that upfront cost when you have a ton of detail.
Nintendo's games often intentionally don't have that much detail in them to avoid visual noise (and a 3 teraflop machine may not be able to generate enough detail for it to be helpful) so it may or may not be useful for a minute. There probably will be innovations that allow mesh shaders to be used with good performance in lower detail environments, but this could take a while to do.
Steve
Koopa
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Personally I don’t think they’ll stumble that much with NG development.
If Nintendo continues making smaller scale project then i won’t mind. Like 2D Metroid and some obscure titles.
NineTailSage
Bob-omb
Yeah I don't really expect the Switch 2 OS to take up such a large footprint.
Maybe at most 1.5-2GB, but I think Nintendo likes how focused the Switch platform was on be gaming first.
Now of course things like system level voice chat and customizations such as themes would be more than enough upgrades over the current Switch.
I find Furukawa's statement about how we will receive Switch 2 details most interesting.
Him saying that between now and the end of this fiscal year we will receive updated information in stages, means it won't be one massive info dump by a specific date.
Also about the MUJI name, I was searching the origin and found this description.
What Does The Name Muji Mean?
The name Muji Means Created and has an Arabic origin. It is a relatively short name with 4 letters, and it holds significant appeal due to its powerful meaning. In terms of popularity, Muji ranks 26945 in the US, indicating that it is a unique name. Additionally, the lucky number associated with this name is 8, which in numerology signifies new beginnings and opportunities.
What is the origin of Muji name?
The name Muji originates from Arabic (Muslim) culture. It’s a name that parents may choose with the hope that their child will embody these characteristics and lead a life filled with courage and divine blessings. The name is deeply rooted in Arabic culture and is often chosen to inspire strength and bravery in the child.
What is the name length of Muji?
The Name Muji consists of 4 alphabets.
What is the lucky number of Muji?
The lucky number associated with the name Muji is "8".
I find this interesting because wouldn't the Switch 2 technically be (and this could be a reach) the 8th home console they've made?
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I was thinking on Notion + a Google Form so people could submit changes. Github's PR makes more sense for collaboration, but it's not as flexible and easy to use as Notion -- I know a lot of non-dev people who are afraid of even opening github links, lol (btw, Notion it's a low/no-code platform that uses markdown and other resources to build pages/wikis, nice productivity tool I've been using a lot recently)
Lugia667
Inkling
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this is why their partners are and will continue to be important
also whose slowing the site down this time?
Concernt
Optimism is non-negotiable
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I think these are all salient points, but I'll note that the current Dock IS actively cooled! It may not need it, but the rear right intake on the Nintendo Switch Dock and Dock with LAN Port is designed such that when the internal fan pulls air in, it runs over the components of the Dock, providing some cooling. This isn't all too absurd, it is the power intake for the console and can handle nearly forty watts across the console and all USB ports. While that heat will of course be dispersed, some of that is going to be in the dock and needs dissipating.
I think this is a REALLY smart design. Even though the existing dock shouldn't need cooling for its components, they took a take-no-risks approach and devised a way for the system to actively cool it.
As for the Switch next fan configuration, I'm not sure we know what the fans look like. Do we have part numbers confirming both fans in question are blower style? The one in the system surely has to be.
Personally I think it's fairly likely to be the one fan, inside the system, like we have now. But if we have shipping records to indicate firmly that the dock has its own fan part number, then that does raise questions. In my mind, I think it COULD be possible that the system has two air channels, one for the internal fan, and a second for the fan of the dock, but that doesn't seem like it would save space or reduce noise, so I question the how and why.
It's a confusing situation, I think. Maybe you're right, this time they don't want to rely on the system fan for everything and will have the Dock cool itself and keep air moving around for the intakes of the system.
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IS to Nintendo: "We got ya back friends! Leave it to us to bolster up your lineups."
Nintendo to IS: "What's with that FE 4 remake we've been asking about for 2 years now?"
IS to Nintendo: "What remake?"
Danny
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I think the hardcore AAA gaming community for a pretty long time have been bitter about Nintendo finding success with stuff like Wii and Switch, because they want the industry to be all about AAA specs and high performance. They were happy when Nintendo seemed to be on the way out with the Wii U and then the Switch hyper success left them a bit bitter.
These are the same people who usually say stuff like ''Nintendo refuses to compete on power!''.
I've yet to see any evidence of vitualized geometry having a significant enough performance hit. I mainly found one dude losing his shit over an additional 0.0x ms frame time increase
Noleth
xenoblade brainrot
Honestly, I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s been finished for years now and they’re just waiting for the right time to release it. June direct I feel is the strongest chance it has to be shown.
darthdiablo
+5 Death Stare
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AceBandage
WUST Member
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Doug Bowser has come for you all.
Make your piece, no one can save you.
Make your piece, no one can save you.
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Not even you?
Ecliptor
#TeamJanuary
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About 71 hours, to be fair.
darthdiablo
+5 Death Stare
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True. That comment flied under the radar mostly though at the time haha. Took someone posting a screenshot for the codename to be propagated.
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BreakAtmo
Moblin
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I'm talking more about how Nintendo will need to make it clear whether or not microSD Express cards can run Switch 2 games, and they would need to make it simple. I can absolutely see UHS-1 microSD cards usable for cold storage and playing BC Switch 1 games, while microSD Express can play everything directly. But I don't think they can realistically have a situation where most games play on microSD Express, but certain games that need faster speeds can only run on faster classes of microSD Express. It would have to be a hard line - all Switch 2 games must work on the slowest microSD Express cards, no exceptions.
not necessarily. NIntendo can specify that a certain speed class is required, otherwise they can't guarantee performance
I haven't seen these before - are these actually the same as "microSD Express", the new card format that's coming out in Q3, or are they just "express speed classes" for regular, non-"Express" microSD cards? This could get confusing, I hope Nintendo doesn't end up doing branded expandable storage or something.
rick_C
Piranha Plant
redmutineer75
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The microSD Express format is just a different version of the already existing SD Express format. These are speeds for SD Express cards which also apply to microSD Express, not for regular microSD.
CalmMind
Unconventional wisdom
You worry too much.
Steve
Koopa
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Doug bowser is probably upset and vending over arguing with someone over airplane etiquette on Twitter.
ItWasMeantToBe19
Manakete
Nanite performance is not better than LODS [TEST RESULTS]. Fix your documentation Epic. You're dangering optimization.
I’ll play devils advocate for a bit Here’s the same shot from the city sample on 5.1, first one uses Nanite, second one has Nanite disabled on the project. Same resolution, on a 2080 It’s first really important to note, this comparison is super dis-ingenuous to the non-nanite shot. It is...
forums.unrealengine.com
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But it’s not really the specific fps that I’m trying to highlight. Obviously GPU times are better on Nanite cause the non-nanite content isn’t optimized. But polycounts aren’t the only feature of Nanite. It’s doing per-cluster occlusion culling, eliminating mesh draw calls by finalizing them in the Nanite pass, etc. You can see the render thread is way less utilized in the Nanite scene.
When you enable Nanite, you are taking a significant up-front cost on the GPU for it. Buuuut… it scales a lot better with polycounts on objects, instances in scene, and mesh memory with not a lot of extra developer work. When you enable Nanite and populate a scene with the same mesh thousands of time you are taking the cost of Nanite but missing out on a most of the benefits (essentially no culling, draw calls were not an issue since they are probably instanced anyways).
This is probably true in simple games like Lyra as well (I dunno, I haven’t opened it so take it with a grain of salt). The benefits of Nanite start paying off when you have more complicated static environments, where you have a lot of instances and a lot of models that you want looking good from any distance. Think like big open world games. The cost of nanite is more tied to the screen resolution rather than scene complexity. So when you are testing performance of nanite in a simple scene, it looks really bad lol.
The idea of “everything that can be nanite should be nanite” I think is more regarding if you are already using Nanite, you should try to enable it for everything possible. The more that is rendered into the Nanite VizBuffer, the more it use it from occlusion and strip away traditional draw calls. Again, if only half of your scene is using Nanite, you are still basically taking the same cost but only utilizing half of the benefits (in a simplified way of thinking about it).
The performance of Nanite is a different beast than traditional LODs, and I find polycounts are one of the most irrelevant metrics to guage whether or not Nanite works for you (despite it being one of the biggest selling points of the feature, I don’t think people should be using Zsculpts in a game production anyways lmao). I’ve had scenes that actually perform better when models are higher density in triangles since the nanite clusters become smaller and the occlusion culling can be more precise to reduce Nanite overdraw.
Anyways, in all, I actually do agree with your main sentiment in the post. I feel like there has been a miscommunication in UE5 suggesting all projects should use Nanite. Obviously not true since it doesn’t even officially support PS4 / Xbone. But whether or not Nanite makes sense for a project is a harder question. I’m not even really advocating to use Nanite or anything, I believe a lot of projects don’t need it, but I do think it warrants a more thorough investigation."
Nanite performance is not better than LODS [TEST RESULTS]. Fix your documentation Epic. You're dangering optimization.
I feel like this is a misunderstanding of what Nanite is supposed to be. Epic has as far as I know never implied Nanite is a system that performs better than traditional LOD’s, and I don’t think they ever intend for it to be that either. LOD’s are great, they perform well, that’s the whole...
forums.unrealengine.com
"
I feel like this is a misunderstanding of what Nanite is supposed to be.
Epic has as far as I know never implied Nanite is a system that performs better than traditional LOD’s, and I don’t think they ever intend for it to be that either. LOD’s are great, they perform well, that’s the whole point about them.
The point of Nanite is to have large amounts of high-detail models rendered at real-time. That’s it. If you want to maximize performance, Nanite is not the answer, and likely never will be. If you want to reduce asset creation workload while increasing visual fidelity and still have the game run at an acceptable FPS on consoles and high-end PC’s, that’s when you turn to Nanite.
Nanite is not about having good performance, Nanite is about having acceptable performance with a poly count orders of magnitude higher than what was previously possible to render real-time. The minimum hardware requirement for using Nanite with good fps is really high, but the trade-off is that the performance hit of Nanite isn’t going to grow that much regardless of how many polygons your scene has.
The other benefit is that as hardware gets more powerful over the coming years, Nanite isn’t going to get more expensive, and so essentially it will be cheaper and cheaper instead. I’m sure there’s ways they can optimize Nanite to require even less power than it currently does, but the the primary driver of reduction in Nanite’s performance draw is going to be improved hardware.
That said, I do agree they should update the documentation. While they don’t claim Nanite performs better than LOD’s, they should make it clear that it doesn’t. The part of the documentation you’ve quoted seems to me to clearly be answering the question of what meshes Nanite should be used for if you’re already using Nanite anyway, not the question of whether you should be using Nanite or not. But they way they’ve written the documentation, it’s a perfectly valid interpretation to read it as them claiming everyone should always use Nanite for every mesh. Which just isn’t true, and I know Epic knows that isn’t true."
darthdiablo
+5 Death Stare
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There isn't hype anymore currently, we have since moved on.
Give us clock speeds for the next discovery!
Skies
Bob-omb
Let's hope this information doesn't spread to Linkdeln, otherwise Fami really we see the wrath of Doug Bowser.
BDGAME
Shriekbat
So the codename is really Nintendo TBA (Muji) ? Think in a lazy codename.
BreakAtmo
Moblin
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Interesting. I was under the impression that the name referred very specifically to these:
Probably. I would just like to have a situation where the Switch has an easily-understandable third-party storage expansion option, with a decent storage speed for games to be designed around.
SirShorse
Shorserer Supreme
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This is addressed in the article, but it basically says (or at least that's how I understand it) is that Nintendo is well aware of this and has been organically growing their teams, resources etc to prepare for situations like this and to be able to constantly provide new experiences for players.
Goodtwin
Like Like
Concerning the potential for a cooling fan in the dock, if true, it could be handled a few different ways. Perhaps some extra cooling ducts on the bottom of the system, forcing air through those ducts. Or perhaps it's simply designed to move air around the exterior of the console. The back plate could also be made of aluminum to act as an additional heat sink and the air moving past it will wick away the heat.
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I'm surprised i haven't seen any reports about the findings on IGN or Eurogamer for example. You would think this has blown up big enough for them to notice, no?
Only those Muji enough understand.
Only those Muji enough understand.
ItWasMeantToBe19
Manakete
UE5 is kind of a bizarre engine as it feels like it's designed for a system with a 3080 level of power so it feels like it's way too demanding for the PS5, but Lumen and VSM are half measures that will be irrelevant by the PS6.
Path tracing with automatic optimization of virtualized geometry meshes in the BVH for simpler poly counts and then reconstructing the lighting seems like the obvious step for next gen game engines but that will have nothing to do with Lumen or VSMs so idk.
You can only get the super high detail UE5 thrives at on PS5 if you tank your internal rendering resolution below 1080p, but the PS5 does badly if your internal rendering resolution is low so I don't know what the theory of UE5 was.
Path tracing with automatic optimization of virtualized geometry meshes in the BVH for simpler poly counts and then reconstructing the lighting seems like the obvious step for next gen game engines but that will have nothing to do with Lumen or VSMs so idk.
You can only get the super high detail UE5 thrives at on PS5 if you tank your internal rendering resolution below 1080p, but the PS5 does badly if your internal rendering resolution is low so I don't know what the theory of UE5 was.
indospot
Process Truster
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I think this is the same underlying standard, just different sizes for it. All the SD card standards have been the same for different sizes. Much like how you see SDXC and microSDXC in those labels there.Interesting. I was under the impression that the name referred very specifically to these:
SirArthur
Kremling
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I dont think so. This answer is not something they are chasing, but rather a reality that happens with every generation. Which is why they also answer how they are growing organically by hiring new talent and fostering them in order to try and mitigate the long dev cycles.
CalmMind
Unconventional wisdom
How's this for easily understandable?Interesting. I was under the impression that the name referred very specifically to these:
Probably. I would just like to have a situation where the Switch has an easily-understandable third-party storage expansion option, with a decent storage speed for games to be designed around.
The current crop of iPCs are locked to UHS-I and UHS-II speeds as a 3rd party storage solution. The Switch 2 is/will not.
Aether
Tingle
Just checked, 320€. (Incl tax)
So 344$
Yeah that would be great, but from title screen or death to instant reload would be even better.
Man, botw without loading may bring me to another more risky play through...
rinku
Cappy
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Thank you, this has cleared up quite a lot haha.
JetstreamRorschach
Holy Cruz
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Muji Dojo Casa House
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They will be fine. Unlike Sony and MS, Nintendo hasn't conditioned their audience to expect every game from them to be a state of the art display of high end graphics. They can alternate between big AAA releases and have smaller, cheaper (but nonetheless fun) games to fill in the gaps.
Individualised
Bob-omb
There's also Carpa and Iwoh.
HGU is just an SKU thing that's also used for Switch 1.
The C in CKUI probably stands for CMB, just as it probably does for CJL (CMB Joycon Left) and CJR (CMB Joycon Right). I don't know what KUI would mean or how it relates to the pro controller. Is there shipping data for the Switch 1 pro controller available?
Aufhebung RPG
History is tragedy becoming comedy
Considering the 400 increase in hiring, I think it's likely to expand the new small and medium sized ip.
Noleth
xenoblade brainrot
wdym I thought buying 20 studios and shutting them down after they release a game is how one ideally grows
(joke btw)
Steve
Koopa
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Even Furukawa mention that Nintendo has been hiring more new graduates and mid career to be Nintendo employees, which is a huge positive, instead of buying studios.
Which makes me wonder of how Nintendo will handle upgraded backward compatibility, like I feel like those newer employees at the beginning will work on NG patches.
Like with all these confirmations I’m quite positive of the system specs, but I’m curious how they’ll handle Backward compatibility, if it’s part of NSO or given away free, or do the infamous directors cuts.
FXSoccer14
Rattata
I would like to see Nintendo have another subsidiary in Europe again. They haven't had one since Rare was sold to Microsoft.
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