Tentacle-tropes
Kremling
They can sell it like it is a gimmick that comes with Redacted
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StarTopic Future Nintendo Hardware & Technology Speculation & Discussion |ST| (Read the staff posts before commenting!)
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ShadowFox08
Paratroopa
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You didn't think 8533 speed was possible?
Don't they have more Series S consoles sold vs Series X?
With the current gen vs Switch 2 RAM comparison, it's proportionally much better than PS4/Xbone 5.5 vs 3GB of RAM on switch.
I'd be shocked if it ends up being that much on switch 2, tbqh. CPU clockspeeds, UFS 3.1 storage speeds (or gamecard), and hopefully that decompression hardware should really help balloon games from being an absurd amount. PS4/Xbone had a lot of duplicated files to make up for its slow speeds on CD and HDD. Nothing was compressed. If you compare PS5/X series ports to last gen ports, the former is usually lower due to free things I mentioned, despite having much higher quality textures, and other stuff.
I do expect some 100GB games from third parties... But in theory, file sizes should be a lot smaller than PS4 games. And textures won't need to be as high as PS5/x series ports. But we'll see... I don't expect any more cod ports on last gen.
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It has 8 not 8.5, 8 is with features disabled otherwise its 7.5
LoneRanger
Chain Chomp
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If SO is still very lightweight as Switch 1 (0.5GB, let’s say Switch 2 has like 1GB) that means the total RAM for games is like 11GB, thats more than 3 times Switch 1 RAM and like ~85% of PS5/XBSeries RAM
256GB of storage is OK, its more in equivalent than Switch 1 in its time, comparing to PS5/XBSeries is like half or 1/3. Its like modern budget phones.
This is going to be a very powerful machine. Considering the massive success of Switch 1 and the rising costs of current big budget games, wouldn’t strange me developers will stick with current gen hardware until 2030 or more, that gives Switch 2 at least 6 years of full support.
256GB of storage is OK, its more in equivalent than Switch 1 in its time, comparing to PS5/XBSeries is like half or 1/3. Its like modern budget phones.
This is going to be a very powerful machine. Considering the massive success of Switch 1 and the rising costs of current big budget games, wouldn’t strange me developers will stick with current gen hardware until 2030 or more, that gives Switch 2 at least 6 years of full support.
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True but a larger chip is easier to cool, 8N lives!
OP
OP
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darthdiablo
+5 Death Stare
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NateDrake
Chain Chomp
That was exploring potential avenues they could consider & wasn't based on any info. Similar to how MS/Sony offer digital-only options to increase revenues via digital purchases.
Steve
Koopa
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Thanks for the answering and I’m guessing your quite intrigued with the recent information.
Might it be part of your next podcast with MVG?
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I think that, based on the timing of everything, 8533 would require delaying the console a year and I don’t think that’s worth it.
Serif
𝕽𝖊𝖓𝖊𝖌𝖆𝖉𝖊 𝕬𝖓𝖌𝖊𝖑
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oldpuck
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No worries. It's a common question, with a complex answer!
RAM speed is separate from RAM amount, for lots of reasons. Series S uses GDDR6, which is a class of RAM that is heavily optimized for speed, over everything else.
Drake - the chip in the new system - uses LPDDR5X, which is a class of RAM optimized for power consumption.
This makes it look like Drake is lacking in the bandwidth department, but that's not entirely true. How much bandwidth a system uses is heavily influenced by the hardware. It's a complex interaction between 1) how the GPU draws to the screen and 2) how much cache the GPU has.
This amount of bandwidth is totally in line for Nvidia GPUs. There are Nvidia GPUs with unusually high bandwidth, but they don't actually perform better than the GPUs with lower bandwidth. So this is a good number.
Lancelot
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lattjeful
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Just wanna note that if you're using DLSS, you should be using higher quality assets anyway as Nvidia's DLSS documentation states that you should be scaling things like assets, LODs, and such for the output resolution, not the input resolution.
But yeah, you're spot on.
darthdiablo
+5 Death Stare
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Concernt
Optimism is non-negotiable
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I feel this is unlikely given the likely generational cross compatibility and the current physical digital split.
It also hasn't done the PS5 much good, given the numbers the DE actually does.
Concernt
Optimism is non-negotiable
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Proportionally? It's ABOVE one of the main bits of competition. But yes, 10-11GB of game available RAM is REALLY close to PS5, compared to the Switch - PS4 comparison of 3.2 to 5.5, it could be 11.1 to 12.5.
Salah Kalajo
Cappy
while it is Exciting to know that there will be an Upgrade to the Speed of the Ram as i see everyone talks about 120GB/s LPDDR5X for Switch 2
but i would like to know were we got this number from and how reliable is the source ?
i mean what is the percentage the Switch 2 will use LPDD5X over LPDDR5 Now ?
but i would like to know were we got this number from and how reliable is the source ?
i mean what is the percentage the Switch 2 will use LPDD5X over LPDDR5 Now ?
casualreader
Octorok
Would be a cool leak to have the name in there and say "look at all these, the actual name is in there but i am not telling which one"
MuddySeal
BREAKING: Chocolate Seal!
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Thanks for the extra context.
I assumed that wasn’t common practice at firstPokéPersona
Cappy
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It should be fine. What helps is that Switch 2 mainly needs to hit a lower level of graphics natively than Series S for it to be able to upscale the graphics with DLSS.
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BreakAtmo
Moblin
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So after all the debating between 102 and 134 we get an exact midpoint, amazing. I'm good with this.
This was made by @mjayer based on last time we found dimensions. Curious if anything has changed (should be 206mm wide for tablet part alone, IDK if anything would change here)
Could this allow for a larger, quieter fan that cools better? I hope so.
I think I might have asked you this before but how much do you expect the better latency of LPDDR5X to help the Switch 2, vs if the chip was using GDDR6?
the source is shipping manifests from companies that build the console. it's a first hand source
oldpuck
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I'm not sure, just because there isn't a lot of data on the situation.
Honestly, the low latency bandwidth probably helps the CPU more than the GPU. Low latency memory helps most in cases where you make lots of small reads, which is a pretty classic CPU situation.
Shoulder
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The Next-Gen Switch Lite will be the size of a Switch OLED. lol
Aufhebung RPG
History is tragedy becoming comedy
out and out
Gerald
Bob-omb
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Actually Switch 2 will have better CPU, is really powerful A78C eight cores, it have apparently same IPC like Zen2
People are just comparing the number but as far as performance is concerned, having enough ram to store everything you need is better than faster ram. Even at half the speed, reading from ram is still 100 times faster than reading from storage to swap in the data you need. At least that was the case before SSD.
The thing with expansion storage is that we don’t know what it will be. SD cards are too slow compared to UFS and only good for cold storage. The other options are either too expensive, too big, too energy consuming, and/or too dead. The rumored SDexpress on the expensive side. Hopefully economy of scale will bring the price down but probably never at the same level as M2 SSD.
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NateDrake
Chain Chomp
I need to navigate topics with extreme delicacy due to his position as a developer. Makes many things untouchable.
Giancarlo
Nintendo connoiseur
no folders/themes on Switch sucessor? that disapointing
eye0h
"aggressively persue a multiplatform strategy"
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Need to see a brand risk RGT 85 guest episode where you just scroll famiboards and get his takes
Raccoon
Fox Brigade
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still won't fit in my pocket like the OLED does
ironically the larger size will be a bigger issue for men since we have big luxurious pockets for our big dumb switch 1s that will be outmoded by the even bigger dumber switch 2
casualreader
Octorok
Gerald
Bob-omb
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Switch 2 will have AAA Games mostly as same time as Gen9 reports are saying of reliable people
JetstreamRorschach
Holy Cruz
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Problem is heat and power consumption, afaik. Makes SD Express more desirable (in addition to its mass market appeal and easier manipulation by children and untrained people).
Gerald
Bob-omb
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PS6 is Late 2028 based on reports, he just mean enter second half of life cycle
darthdiablo
+5 Death Stare
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Future Boy Nemo
Daydream Believer
TL;DR: Unlike Switch 2, the Xbox Series S doesn't have to worry about its power consumption and can use a type of RAM that clocks much faster on the same width memory bus, at the cost of higher power usage and more heat. It's not nothing, but it's also not something that's going to be make-or-break for 99.5% of ports that have a Series S version.
I'm putting the long answer in a spoiler because it's way longer than I thought it would be and the TL;DR makes it mostly extraneous, but I spent too much time writing it to hit delete.
Processors have a tiny amount of memory inside their chips and so can only hold the data they need at the moment, but storage (game carts, SD cards, and internal storage) are too slow to constantly be sending data like audio or textures and animations to the processor, so RAM acts as a staging ground between them. The storage bottleneck is alleviated, because reading 1GB/s is plenty fast if you only need to load most things once per level, and the RAM is fast enough for the processor to do its juggling act of data in -> computation -> data in -> repeat, without dropping any balls.
The amount of RAM determines how much data it can hold at once without having to do its own juggling act between RAM and storage, swapping files in and out. On that front, Switch 2 will be very comfortable. The other side of the coin is bandwidth, which is what you're asking about (sorry it took so long to get to the main point, I want to explain from basics for the benefit of any curious lurkers). Instead of being about how much data the RAM holds, bandwidth is how much data it can move to the processor each second. Since the processor has such a short-term memory, it needs the same data many times a second, which is why the bandwidth is so much higher than the size of the RAM.
To calculate the bandwidth of memory, you take the clock speed it's running at, multiply that by the number of physical circuits connecting it to the processor, double it (because modern memory is Double Data Rate, or DDR, which means it's effectively twice as good as the clock speed), and divide by eight to go from bits to bytes, and divide by one billion to go from bytes to gigabytes. For what our crack detectives have uncovered today we'll skip the step of doubling it because rather than clock speed we received the specification 'Mega Transfers per Second', which here means 'clock speed * one million * 2'. Oh, and we only need to divide by 1,000 to go from megabytes to gigabytes.
For a portable device, the energy consumption of each part becomes critical to the design. Processors, RAM, storage, everything is sandbagged by the fact we can't draw too much power, else the battery life will be horrible and the heat will prematurely wear down the components. The power consumption of RAM is primarily determined (aside from how advanced the manufacturing process is) by speed, the same GB/s we're wondering about. Xbox Series S uses GDDR, that's Graphics DDR. Real-time 3D graphics like video games use are quite bandwidth hungry, so much so that a special type of very fast memory was developed with graphics in the name, but the speed comes at the cost of power consumption and waste heat. Conversely, Switch 2 will be using LPDDR, which is Low Power DDR. In exchange for being easier on the battery, LPDDR has a lower peak speed than GDDR. Switch 2 and the main memory pool on XSS have the same number of pins connecting the RAM to the processor, a 128-bit bus. The big difference is from the type of memory they use; one appropriate for a home console, and one appropriate for a portable device.
If you're worried about the difference in bandwidth hobbling the Switch 2 vs home consoles, don't worry. In my amateur opinion, it's well-matched with what we know and suspect of the processing capabilities of the system, so memory bandwidth shouldn't be any more of a bottleneck than the CPU being clocked much slower than XSS. For reference, Switch has the same memory bandwidth as PS3, but thanks to its other components you would never guess it. Could you imagine something like Witcher 3 or Nier Automata running on PS3? Bandwidth is just one number among many, and when it's a part of a balancedbreakfast system things hum along nicely. Xbox One had 68GB/s for comparison, so we're well above that even if Nintendo downclocks the RAM to save on power. A final comparison, for if you're a PC gamer: I'd much rather have an RTX 4080S than an RTX 3080. 3080 has more memory bandwidth, but 4080S is 50%+ faster in real world frames per second at the same settings. Memory bandwidth presents a ceiling, but if games hit another ceiling before hitting this one then we can look at the bandwidth spec number in isolation and just shrug. It will be good enough.
The amount of RAM determines how much data it can hold at once without having to do its own juggling act between RAM and storage, swapping files in and out. On that front, Switch 2 will be very comfortable. The other side of the coin is bandwidth, which is what you're asking about (sorry it took so long to get to the main point, I want to explain from basics for the benefit of any curious lurkers). Instead of being about how much data the RAM holds, bandwidth is how much data it can move to the processor each second. Since the processor has such a short-term memory, it needs the same data many times a second, which is why the bandwidth is so much higher than the size of the RAM.
To calculate the bandwidth of memory, you take the clock speed it's running at, multiply that by the number of physical circuits connecting it to the processor, double it (because modern memory is Double Data Rate, or DDR, which means it's effectively twice as good as the clock speed), and divide by eight to go from bits to bytes, and divide by one billion to go from bytes to gigabytes. For what our crack detectives have uncovered today we'll skip the step of doubling it because rather than clock speed we received the specification 'Mega Transfers per Second', which here means 'clock speed * one million * 2'. Oh, and we only need to divide by 1,000 to go from megabytes to gigabytes.
For a portable device, the energy consumption of each part becomes critical to the design. Processors, RAM, storage, everything is sandbagged by the fact we can't draw too much power, else the battery life will be horrible and the heat will prematurely wear down the components. The power consumption of RAM is primarily determined (aside from how advanced the manufacturing process is) by speed, the same GB/s we're wondering about. Xbox Series S uses GDDR, that's Graphics DDR. Real-time 3D graphics like video games use are quite bandwidth hungry, so much so that a special type of very fast memory was developed with graphics in the name, but the speed comes at the cost of power consumption and waste heat. Conversely, Switch 2 will be using LPDDR, which is Low Power DDR. In exchange for being easier on the battery, LPDDR has a lower peak speed than GDDR. Switch 2 and the main memory pool on XSS have the same number of pins connecting the RAM to the processor, a 128-bit bus. The big difference is from the type of memory they use; one appropriate for a home console, and one appropriate for a portable device.
If you're worried about the difference in bandwidth hobbling the Switch 2 vs home consoles, don't worry. In my amateur opinion, it's well-matched with what we know and suspect of the processing capabilities of the system, so memory bandwidth shouldn't be any more of a bottleneck than the CPU being clocked much slower than XSS. For reference, Switch has the same memory bandwidth as PS3, but thanks to its other components you would never guess it. Could you imagine something like Witcher 3 or Nier Automata running on PS3? Bandwidth is just one number among many, and when it's a part of a balanced
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Considering we're just barely starting to get many games that aren't on PS4, the not-PS5 games will start showing up in big numbers... 2032 maybe? If PS6 numbers are big enough and developers have the manpower to take advantage?
I built Switch-sized pockets into my jacket. But now the bottoms are coming apart and the jacket is faded, so time to start again.
TLZ
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Thank you too mister.
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