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StarTopic Future Nintendo Hardware & Technology Speculation & Discussion |ST| (Read the staff posts before commenting!)

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NineTailSage said:
My thoughts are that only one side of the system needs to be electro magnetically charged (which would be on the tablet where the joycons connect). Them mentioning in that article of the SL and SR buttons now being metal, would make for the perfect conduit to connect to the magnetized section on the tablet.

Similar to how this magnetic lock below is only receiving current on one side to connect to the metal base plate that would attach to a door.
If any of you have used a ID badge at work on a secure door, those use electro magnetic locks to seal the door shut.
Not saying what Nintendo are using are remotely close to this strength, but the lock below can withstand 600lbs of force when active.
I would think if Nintendo came up with a solution it can withstand up to 10-20lbs of force before falling off...

Rosslare%20LK-M12%20magnetic%20lock%20UL_2.jpg


Rosslare Security, LK-M06L Magnetic lock with Lock Status and Indicator, 600 LBS

Check out the deal on Rosslare Security, LK-M06L Magnetic lock with Lock Status and Indicator, 600 LBS at maglocks
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It's not the strength that's the problem, but the power consumption to keep it up.
Elektromagnets are only magnetic while there is a current flowing through them. A) it uses up power to keep the connection, the stronger the more power it uses.
B) what happens when the power is done, does the connection just...stop? Joy cons falling of, or the switch falling out of your hand?
 
seyfeselassie said:
Two things:

What are the odds that Ninspider is affiliated with Mobapad?

If Nintendo doesn't make any moves towards Mobapad's post, which is more likely:

1. Nintendo doesn't consider it to be particularly threatening to their console reveal

2. They know the information is false and will just stay silent on it until someone at the next investors' meeting asks them about that information so they can deny it.
Click to expand...

Maybe its 3.

They don't want to make any public moves, in fear of validating the information.
 
oldpuck said:
The Switch doesn't have the space limitations of an iPhone, nor the concerns about being dropped in water. Getting rid of it will require Nintendo beef up support for BT headphones which I imagine will cost more than the jack does.
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Also, game audio is way more sensitive to latency than other audio.
 
Ephram said:
Nintendo should include some sort of "use Docked HQ settings for handheld mode" setting, which would make every Switch 1 game look better instantly when played in HH. This should be optional because you lose touch screen functionality in some games.
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... And battery life (not just during use, but also long term since you're pushing the battery stronger and have more recharge cycles), and temp (-> uncomfortable to problematic), and ...

I am for the option. But there are a handful of downsides they took into account for deciding that they won't.
 
0
Can you believe it guys? [Switch 2] just a week away. [Switch 2] is in a week! Woohoo! I am so happy about this information. [Switch 2]! Just a week away, oh wow.

NateDrake said:
Tuesday morning.
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Thanks for the timing boss man. I honestly wouldn't mind some rational, informed speculation at this point given how hectic the last few days have been, but new information sprinkled in would be cool too. I honestly don't mind either way. I am happy enough to wait a week until the financial briefing though.
 
omniryu said:
well, it woukd have to be the same on the original switch, per game basis. You know mario kart 9 has random voice chat in it? Through the app of course but still.

It seems kinda useless now if no other separate party can debunk or support this claim. Also, the question I asked several days ago still stand (not to you aufhebung, but to everyone):

What was the purpose of coming here? Ninspider threw out a one word post and just bounced. Like why couldn't Ninspider just say it? Is this the place that discover magnet being used in the Switch?

It is also isn't hard to know that the Switch 1 was about to use magnets but it failed. I am not a magnet guy but don't some magnets get worn out after years? How is that more reliable?

This is a real question, I have external hard drives for My other consoles. Should I worry about the magnet interfering with them? Can the hall effect joystick interfere with the magnets "rail"?
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If this information is true, electro magnets won't wear out over time.
Unless something in the wiring goes bad (which at that point I hope it's easily replaceable) but should last the life of the console.

We also don't know if Nintendo are using hall effect sticks or have they found something else entirely.
I'm sure whatever it is though Nintendo have thought about any side effects a magnetic rail may or may not cause.

Aether said:
It's not the strength that's the problem, but the power consumption to keep it up.
Elektromagnets are only magnetic while there is a current flowing through them. A) it uses up power to keep the connection, the stronger the more power it uses.
B) what happens when the power is done, does the connection just...stop? Joy cons falling of, or the switch falling out of your hand?
Click to expand...

We just don't know enough about what solutions they are using to get this deep into the rabbit hole.
For all we know it has multiple connections that attach the new joycons to the body, but magnets are the initial function that align up the charging pins correctly...

I also believe if they were considering some kind of magnetic connector since the original Switch, they must of found something that was feasible enough after all of this time to finally implement it in the next Switch.
 
Aether said:
It's not the strength that's the problem, but the power consumption to keep it up.
Elektromagnets are only magnetic while there is a current flowing through them. A) it uses up power to keep the connection, the stronger the more power it uses.
B) what happens when the power is done, does the connection just...stop? Joy cons falling of, or the switch falling out of your hand?
Click to expand...
I think it was already discussed somewhere in the past pages that they could simply use an electropermanent magnet. When introduced to a current, the magnetic field of the magnet can simply be switched on or off. So the power consumption with connected joycons would be the same as without: 0. Think of it as like an e-ink display. It only uses power to change the state of the magnet. I think that really is the only way they could do this but a brilliant one indeed. Amazing what fidgety technology is out there. I see no problem with them using magnets to attach/detach. They could even turn the magnets on/off with the push of the release button like on the first gen joycons as well to keep the continuitiy and muscle memory.
 
TheBlueBerryJelly said:
could simply use an electropermanent magnet
Click to expand...
One does not simply use an electropermanent magnet. Every option comes with its own engineering challenges. For instance, if the system and/or controllers run out of battery, should the magnets fail open, closed, or remain in the last state they were? How does that affect portability? If they fail open, the device falls apart in carrying cases, or can't be put together with the system dead.

There's bumps in this road no matter what. 😅
 
Concernt said:
One does not simply use an electropermanent magnet. Every option comes with its own engineering challenges. For instance, if the system and/or controllers run out of battery, should the magnets fail open, closed, or remain in the last state they were? How does that affect portability? If they fail open, the device falls apart in carrying cases, or can't be put together with the system dead.

There's bumps in this road no matter what. 😅
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Okay maybe "simply" was a bit overzealous but you get what I mean by that, don't you? There IS a way to make it work. I'm not an engineer so I don't know how to overcome your mentioned hurdles but nothing strucks me as big of a problem as continous power drain with permanent electromagnets.
Could they reserve a portion of the battery that wouldn't be drained actively to have a safety for when the system runs out of power? And even when the electropermanent magnet should stay on when juice runs out, the joycons wouldn't be glued to the system and could be taken of with enough force, no?
 
TheBlueBerryJelly said:
Okay maybe "simply" was a bit overzealous but you get what I mean by that, don't you? There IS a way to make it work. I'm not an engineer so I don't know how to overcome your mentioned hurdles but nothing strucks me as big of a problem as continous power drain with permanent electromagnets.
Could they reserve a portion of the battery that wouldn't be drained actively to have a safety for when the system runs out of power? And even when the electropermanent magnet should stay on when juice runs out, the joycons wouldn't be glued to the system and could be taken of with enough force, no?
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They could use adjustable magnets that don't require electricity, even! Switchable magnets are technically a possibility, no electricity required. Then there's the question of where "electromagnetic suction" could have come from. If anything, I think it could just mean... Magnetic attraction.
 
I understand there are engineering challenges but there's been a significant amount of smoke with the magnetic connection so it seems pretty likely Nintendo has some kind of solution there. It would be a weird detail for someone to make up.

I don't think it's surprising they would want to implement it either, the rail system on Switch does have a number of annoyances and reliability issues (especially with the wrist straps).
 
Branduil said:
I understand there are engineering challenges but there's been a significant amount of smoke with the magnetic connection so it seems pretty likely Nintendo has some kind of solution there. It would be a weird detail for someone to make up.

I don't think it's surprising they would want to implement it either, the rail system on Switch does have a number of annoyances and reliability issues (especially with the wrist straps).
Click to expand...
I also have a good feeling about magnets. It would make sense for Nintendo to put a lot of R&D intro this, Not only because of reliability issues, but would also be great for product differentiation.
 
Aufhebung RPG said:
So the idea I put forward yesterday was that the leak doesn't directly create any extra "risk" for the third-party accessory company, and again, I emphasize that the third-party accessory maker really has no way of verifying whether or not it's completely credible, But the few Nintendo KOLs I follow in China, even the stricter ones, consider the information to be credible, but only consider some of it to be inaccurate or "false".

Unlike the thread, the KOLs on the Chinese side are not questioning the information on specific hardware implementations, but rather don't think 3rd party accessory vendors will be clear on whether the switch2 is backward compatible on game card at this early date, as that involves software level details.
Click to expand...

This sounds pretty sensible, honestly.

As of right now, after a few days of fully digesting the latest rush of rumours, I'm going to put what Rubén Mercado shared at the top of the credibility scale due to the amount of correct infos for the Switch OLED using a similar method, and, despite the fact it was technically published earlier, the Mobapad report will be lower on the same scale but not by much; more specifically, I'm referring to the part about the magnetic attachment system for the Joycons and the three new buttons. The part of their report about the backcompatibility goes further down the credibility scale.
 
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So has there been anything new since friday last week, or can i save me the time to go through 15+ pages since then?
 
So, in case the magetic stuff is legit, has anyone done some deep dive into how much of a battery drain those electromagnets are?

It won't be an issue if the system is docked and the new Joy-Cons are connected and won't be a big thing for tabletop mode, but in portable play we're talking about an additional constant drain to the battery.
Meaning not only does the system keep the Joy-Cons charged-up, but it would now also the additional drain of the magnets.

I do think Nintendo would at least want to have a similar portable battery time like OG Switch had, and with the rumored dimensions in mind, it doesn't appear that they've much room for a much bigger battery.

E: Another thought that just crossed my mind ...

What about if you completely power the system off? I can see the magnets being powered if the console is in standby, but i can't see the same when you fully power it down.

Plus, wouldn't standby power consumption also increase, potentially limit the portability further?

BloodMoon said:
Nope, you’re good
Click to expand...

Thanks, appreciated.
 
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Bonejack said:
So, in case the magetic stuff is legit, has anyone did some deep dive into how much of a battery drain those electromagnets are?
Click to expand...
My very surface level understanding is that it's similar to an e-ink display, where the only power spent is the power used to actively change the state, so no passive power is necessary. A current would be used to control a lock similar to the physical latch that holds current Joycon in, and if this is in "locked" state it would remain there even at low power/power off state, as it'd only be needed to actually change state to "unlocked".
 
TheBlueBerryJelly said:
I think it was already discussed somewhere in the past pages that they could simply use an electropermanent magnet. When introduced to a current, the magnetic field of the magnet can simply be switched on or off.
Click to expand...
Yeah...that was partially me, and I also stated that a) it's not cheap such a mechanism, and especially b) still needs power to switch, meaning if the power if off, you can't detach/attach joy cons.
TheBlueBerryJelly said:
So the power consumption with connected joycons would be the same as without: 0. Think of it as like an e-ink display. It only uses power to change the state of the magnet. I think that really is the only way they could do this but a brilliant one indeed. Amazing what fidgety technology is out there. I see no problem with them using magnets to attach/detach. They could even turn the magnets on/off with the push of the release button like on the first gen joycons as well to keep the continuitiy and muscle memory.
Click to expand...
Push of the button: it's either an intricate mechanism (with moving parts), meaning expensive, or the push can produce enough electricity that it can switch it, and that I honestly don't think is possible with a button press. (Except if it's like REALLY hard to press, but then it's unusable).
 
NineTailSage said:
We just don't know enough about what solutions they are using to get this deep into the rabbit hole.
For all we know it has multiple connections that attach the new joycons to the body, but magnets are the initial function that align up the charging pins correctly...

I also believe if they were considering some kind of magnetic connector since the original Switch, they must of found something that was feasible enough after all of this time to finally implement it in the next Switch.
Click to expand...
I do hope we get it in some form, but if I need to click something in place, then I don't care for an initial alignment. It also opens up for "ups I forgot to lock it and now the switch fell" scenarios. Then it's no better then the rails. We'll see.
 
kojimaposting said:
My very surface level understanding is that it's similar to an e-ink display, where the only power spent is the power used to actively change the state, so no passive power is necessary. A current would be used to control a lock similar to the physical latch that holds current Joycon in, and if this is in "locked" state it would remain there even at low power/power off state, as it'd only be needed to actually change state to "unlocked".
Click to expand...
Na, electromagnets need konstant Power.

The other option is permanent magnets that you either with an elektromagnet or with a mechanical solution "block". Mechanical: expensive. Other variant: again, power dependant for switching.
 
Aether said:
Na, electromagnets need konstant Power.

The other option is permanent magnets that you either with an elektromagnet or with a mechanical solution "block". Mechanical: expensive. Other variant: again, power dependant for switching.
Click to expand...
Oh, right! Thanks for correcting me. That's... interesting. Very curious to see how they pull that off then, if true 👀
 
Aether said:
Push of the button: it's either an intricate mechanism (with moving parts), meaning expensive, or the push can produce enough electricity that it can switch it, and that I honestly don't think is possible with a button press. (Except if it's like REALLY hard to press, but then it's unusable).
Click to expand...
Sorry for the misunaderstanding, I didn't mean that the press of the release button would power the electropermanent magnet off on its own. It's true that it would require a certain jolt of electricity to switch the magnets off, my idea was that maybe a small portion of battery could always be held back to insure the possibility of detaching/attaching the joycons.

Also, I don't have any knowledge about the cost of mentioned electropermanent magnets and would love someone to edjucate me on that. I'm hear to learn from and speculate with everyone because it's fun. So, thank you for your reply on that matter!

Another thought: Would it be so desastrous to not be able to detach the joycons when the system ran out of power? I mean, the solution would be to dock the system or charge via a power cable, no? Is there any benefit to being able to detach the joycons when out of power? That would also imply that the magnets would have to be in the unit itself, not the controllers.
 
Aether said:
Na, electromagnets need konstant Power.

The other option is permanent magnets that you either with an elektromagnet or with a mechanical solution "block". Mechanical: expensive. Other variant: again, power dependant for switching.
Click to expand...
Maybe there's just a "lock" that activates with the press of a button and deactivate when you press it again.
I wonder what Ganon is up too this new button near HOME / CAPTURE is for.
 
Bonejack said:
So, in case the magetic stuff is legit, has anyone done some deep dive into how much of a battery drain those electromagnets are?

It won't be an issue if the system is docked and the new Joy-Cons are connected and won't be a big thing for tabletop mode, but in portable play we're talking about an additional constant drain to the battery.
Meaning not only does the system keep the Joy-Cons charged-up, but it would now also the additional drain of the magnets.

I do think Nintendo would at least want to have a similar portable battery time like OG Switch had, and with the rumored dimensions in mind, it doesn't appear that they've much room for a much bigger battery.

E: Another thought that just crossed my mind ...

What about if you completely power the system off? I can see the magnets being powered if the console is in standby, but i can't see the same when you fully power it down.

Plus, wouldn't standby power consumption also increase, potentially limit the portability further?



Thanks, appreciated.
Click to expand...
Checking that 1,5cm diagonal takes 5V400mA for 1kg of strength. Sounds about right and don't expect much improvement with non linear behaviour, and better materials. (Also: price as a factor...)

Bigger problem: behaviour when power is of. It has to keep the connection with a dead battery (so elektromagnet is not an option), and it needs to be able to detach without power .

Only solution I could see is permanent magnet + electrical "detach" mechanism for easy detaching, and when battery is dead you need a lot of force to detach it.
 
Koren Lesthe said:
Maybe there's just a "lock" that activates with the press of a button and deactivate when you press it again.
I wonder what Ganon is up too this new button near HOME / CAPTURE is for.
Click to expand...
I don't agree, however this is a point that someone smarter than me might disprove. In theory, any button that will affect the rail should be the joycon's back button beneath ZR. Why have a separate button for a specific locking mechanism. Furthermore, why only have it be on the right joycon, theoretically it should be mirrored on both sides.

It's more likely to be that other pair of buttons beneath the ZR button that was shown, because at least they're mirrored... but they're more likely to be back buttons for additional inputs, so i have no clue what it could be.
 
I see people mentioning electromagnets as requiring a constant current, but what about electropermanent magnets? Those only require a single pulse to activate. Is there a cost/material barrier to mass producing these for Joy-Cons?
 
Aether said:
Checking that 1,5cm diagonal takes 5V400mA for 1kg of strength. Sounds about right and don't expect much improvement with non linear behaviour, and better materials. (Also: price as a factor...)

Bigger problem: behaviour when power is of. It has to keep the connection with a dead battery (so elektromagnet is not an option), and it needs to be able to detach without power .

Only solution I could see is permanent magnet + electrical "detach" mechanism for easy detaching, and when battery is dead you need a lot of force to detach it.
Click to expand...

I wonder, would those electromagnets, or heck even regular ones, interfere with the control sticks should Nintendo decide to go with Hall-effect ones?

Something in me thinks that's one of the likely changes on Joy-Cons, as anything that has them prevent another Drift situation would favorable for use.
 
seyfeselassie said:
I see people mentioning electromagnets as requiring a constant current, but what about electropermanent magnets? Those only require a single pulse to activate. Is there a cost/material barrier to mass producing these for Joy-Cons?
Click to expand...
Interestingly, I found a project that could be linked to this sort of R&D. Back in 2013, Google was experimenting with something called "Project Ara" which was apparently a smartphone that consisted of modules that provided features (processors, batteries, cameras, you name it) that could be swapped out and upgraded over time. Initially, the idea was to use Electropermanent Magnets but Google moved onto other potential solutions before cancelling it outright in 2016 for unknown reasons, but it could theoretically work in a similar for a single component... like... say... the Joycon. Not a bad idea all things considered.
 
0
why tf don't they just use standard ahh magnets though? from what i'm reading here the use of electromagnets just seems like a needless power drain as well as a miriad of other logistical issues.
 
TheBlueBerryJelly said:
Sorry for the misunaderstanding, I didn't mean that the press of the release button would power the electropermanent magnet off on its own. It's true that it would require a certain jolt of electricity to switch the magnets off, my idea was that maybe a small portion of battery could always be held back to insure the possibility of detaching/attaching the joycons.

Also, I don't have any knowledge about the cost of mentioned electropermanent magnets and would love someone to edjucate me on that. I'm hear to learn from and speculate with everyone because it's fun. So, thank you for your reply on that matter!

Another thought: Would it be so desastrous to not be able to detach the joycons when the system ran out of power? I mean, the solution would be to dock the system or charge via a power cable, no? Is there any benefit to being able to detach the joycons when out of power? That would also imply that the magnets would have to be in the unit itself, not the controllers.
Click to expand...
It's mostly mechanical solutions that cost more. Permanent magnets are fine I think, not cheap but passable, still a cost factor. I think Linus tech tips talked about it when they where discussing their custom cable ties and needed to order magnets. I just think it is needed. Think your switch is dead, and you can't remove even the joy cons anymore.
Koren Lesthe said:
Maybe there's just a "lock" that activates with the press of a button and deactivate when you press it again.
I wonder what Ganon is up too this new button near HOME / CAPTURE is for.
Click to expand...
Effectively that's what the surface pro does. (Will need to find the link), but the button needs 10% of both batteries (in keyboard and screen) to work. Otherwise mechanic force is needed, there is seemingly a hidden leaver in the cooling grills. That would be the closest solution I could see.
Bonejack said:
I wonder, would those electromagnets, or heck even regular ones, interfere with the control sticks should Nintendo decide to go with Hall-effect ones?

Something in me thinks that's one of the likely changes on Joy-Cons, as anything that has them prevent another Drift situation would favorable for use.
Click to expand...
Probably. Technically possible to isolate , but pretty expensive ..
 
fluttersusagi said:
why tf don't they just use standard ahh magnets though? from what i'm reading here the use of electromagnets just seems like a needless power drain as well as a miriad of other logistical issues.
Click to expand...
The general problem with using standard aahh magnets is that there's a large risk of clamping fingers between the joycon and dock/other controller by doing so. Furthermore, a joycon that's using a rail and a standard AHHHH- magnet means that sliding the joycon off can be really annoying and present an issue in of itself. The only way to reduce that would be to weaken the magnet but at that point... what's the point in using a magnet in the first place?
 
Ephram said:
Nintendo should include some sort of "use Docked HQ settings for handheld mode" setting, which would make every Switch 1 game look better instantly when played in HH. This should be optional because you lose touch screen functionality in some games.
Click to expand...
On that emulator that Nintendo killed, you can use the touch screen in dock mode in most games.
 
AshenMortality said:
I ve read that the Chinese leaker mentions that the upgrade to switch 2 will be a rather conservative one akin to a switch Pro….Do all the tech kids here share the same sentiment or it is just the leaker’s view?
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The leaker just said it'd be a similar concept but they also said they don't doubt nintendo will find new and innovative ways to play. I think everyone here for the most part thinks it will be iterative.
 
eye0h said:
The leaker just said it'd be a similar concept but they also said they don't doubt nintendo will find new and innovative ways to play. I think everyone here for the most part thinks it will be iterative.
Click to expand...
I think most people would prefer it to be iterative, instead of changing the formula plus the Switch 2 will be using better tech and a custom chip, compare to the Switch Pro.

Heck Reddit were going insane over the thought of it conservative, despite it clearly saying the Dock and the concept will stay the same.
 
eye0h said:
The leaker just said it'd be a similar concept but they also said they don't doubt nintendo will find new and innovative ways to play. I think everyone here for the most part thinks it will be iterative.
Click to expand...

Precisely what I want as both a former shareholder and consumer. No switch ups (har har).

I'll take the scroll wheel though. Small little nugget that could provide some cool applications. Sniping? Menu scrolling? Map navigation? Perfection.
 
Permanent magnets can be disabled by pairing it with an opposite magnet. In theory, a neodymium magnet would work. To release, the user will have to press a button in the joycon to induce a magnetic field that disables the permanent magnet. Releasing the button should disable the induction and restores the permanent magnet magnetism. As for the induction, it can be done using another permanent magnet or electronically. If Nintendo does the permanent magnet route to disable the magnetism, Nintendo would have to include two permanent magnet (a pair) that is placed close to one another. To disable the magnetic field, the joycon would have to rotate the other magnet in order to induce a negative magnetic field effectively short circuiting the other magnet.

Some people point out that the magnet mights interfere with the hall effect stick, Nintendo can opt to include the magnet on the Switch's body instead of the joycon if that's the case.
 
Shareholder Chad said:
Precisely what I want as both a former shareholder and consumer. No switch ups (har har).

I'll take the scroll wheel though. Small little nugget that could provide some cool applications. Sniping? Menu scrolling? Map navigation? Perfection.
Click to expand...
Every time this is mentioned I must mention the improved practicality and applications of a haptic capacitive pressure sensitive shoulder button or pad.
 
Concernt said:
Every time this is mentioned I must mention the improved practicality and applications of a haptic capacitive pressure sensitive shoulder button or pad.
Click to expand...

Fair. I enjoyed the steam controller but Nintendo will most likely take the cheaper method. Joy-cons are already packed and expensive. That said, Im willing to shell out extra cash and will be happy if they go that route.
 
ertaboy356b said:
Permanent magnets can be disabled by pairing it with an opposite magnet. In theory, a neodymium magnet would work. To release, the user will have to press a button in the joycon to induce a magnetic field that disables the permanent magnet. Releasing the button should disable the induction and restores the permanent magnet magnetism. As for the induction, it can be done using another permanent magnet or electronically. If Nintendo does the permanent magnet route to disable the magnetism, Nintendo would have to include two permanent magnet (a pair) that is placed close to one another. To disable the magnetic field, the joycon would have to rotate the other magnet in order to induce a negative magnetic field effectively short circuiting the other magnet.
Click to expand...
The rotation mechanism is another mechanical part that is more complex then the current mechanical solution, having a mechanism that moves magnets on an axis length wise is also something that potentially needs service if it missaligns.


ertaboy356b said:
Some people point out that the magnet mights interfere with the hall effect stick, Nintendo can opt to include the magnet on the Switch's body instead of the joycon if that's the case.
Click to expand...
How does that change anything? By moving the magnetic field 5mm over?
And then you would need to have the buttons for disabling mechanically on the switch body...
 
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