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StarTopic Future Nintendo Hardware & Technology Speculation & Discussion |ST| (Read the staff posts before commenting!)

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pelusilla6 said:
I guess stacking everything is the future to avoid costs and Moores law.

Also:

Click to expand...

Makes sense, yeah. There will be a ton of new design challenges for vertical designs but cost will always scale much more with area than height so I guess that's the way to go.
 
Hermii said:
Doesnt make sense to me. If they can make back that R&D investment quite quickly by selling a few million game cards, you would want to make the investment as early as possible. Would make zero difference to the end user, Switch woudnt be able to utilize the higher speed anyway,
Click to expand...
The bolded is obviously a huge exaggeration, as was my "100 times cheaper." Between the memory technology itself, the interface to let a Switch read it, and the manufacturing-to-sale pipeline, everything is already humming along in a way that takes years to develop and get up and running. The memory alone being cheaper doesn't make that economy of scale go away in the couple years of Switch lifecycle Nintendo would have left if they did spend the time and money to switch mid-gen.
 
Skittzo said:
Also here is the paper I was thinking of, it's actually from 2017- (courtesy of @Thraktor )

ieeexplore.ieee.org

A 128Gb (MLC)/192Gb (TLC) single-gate vertical channel (SGVC) architecture 3D NAND using only 16 layers with robust read disturb, long-retention and excellent scaling capability

We have successfully developed a 128Gb MLC (or 192Gb TLC) 3D NAND Flash using 16-layer SGVC architecture. The produced memory density is 1.6 Gb/mm <sup xmlns:mml="http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML" xmlns:xlink="http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink">2</sup> for MLC or 2.4 Gb/mm <sup...
ieeexplore.ieee.org ieeexplore.ieee.org

Requires a subscription though. This is a relatively exciting excerpt (if true):

image.png

Basically the idea is, the more layers you have the more storage you have and the less the storage costs per GB, since cost scales much more with area than volume. Not sure if the exact costs will be the same as in 2017 ($0.04 per GB which would be ~$5 for 128GB) but the concept is the same- more layers equals larger yet cheaper storage.
Click to expand...
I have access to the full thing, but I'm guessing sharing that would not be kosher.

What concerns me is that this is just 3D NAND, there is nothing in here about ROM applications. Now, I'll confess, I'm not clear on what Macronix is doing to bog-standard NAND memory to make it suitable for use as very long-lasting ROM. Totally unclear on that.
The paper says:
Using simplified Arrehenius model with Ea=1.1eV, the retention already surpass 40 years at room-temperature storage, and more than 5 years at 40 degree. The RBER increase slowly at 85C baking, and it is expected to be only ~1E-3 at 85C 10 year, which is correctable by BCH method. We believe that this retention performance is much better than ordinary TLC 3D NAND Flash.
Click to expand...
Which sounds promising? Unless the current carts have greater longevity at 40c...

Edit: it goes on to say that it's ideal for game grade memory. Well there we go!
 
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LiC said:
The bolded is obviously a huge exaggeration, as was my "100 times cheaper." Between the memory technology itself, the interface to let a Switch read it, and the manufacturing-to-sale pipeline, everything is already humming along in a way that takes years to develop and get up and running. The memory alone being cheaper doesn't make that economy of scale go away in the couple years of Switch lifecycle Nintendo would have left if they did spend the time and money to switch mid-gen.
Click to expand...

But it's a change they eventually need to make. They can incur the huge setup cost mid gen and benefit from decreased cart costs earlier, or they can wait until the generational shift, when they're dealing with a million other costs and unknowns and potential hurdles.
 
InfinityWarrior88 said:
Sony talked about PS5 a year before release despite PS4 still selling very well. Same with Xbox. Switch is in it's 7th year, acknowledging next gen isn't going to cause a healthy, declining platform to drop like a rock. There's no strong evidence to suggest this.
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Microsoft revealed the Series X at The Game Awards, an event that Nintendo doesn’t participate in with any notable capacity anymore. For Sony, the intention to release PS5 in 2020 was relayed to investors in April 2019, but we didn’t even get a logo until CES 2020.

I do think Nintendo will announce the intention to release the Switch 2 next year to investors this November, but I don’t think we’ll get a tangible reveal of the hardware until at least February (probably March).
 
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catonkatonk said:
But it's a change they eventually need to make. They can incur the huge setup cost mid gen and benefit from decreased cart costs earlier, or they can wait until the generational shift, when they're dealing with a million other costs and unknowns and potential hurdles.
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Using new console R&D to justify the expense, as well as waiting longer for the tech to mature (they're putting out more layers now?), and being able to use the tech to its fullest extent (the increased bandwidth) are all reasons to hold off on doing it until you've got a new console. Additionally as LiC said, presenting the new format as part of the reason to upgrade to the new gen product.

I'm sure they've been working closely with Macronix for years on how best to initiate the changeover, but doing it at a hard transitional period makes much more sense for all parties involved.
 
catonkatonk said:
I have access to the full thing, but I'm guessing sharing that would not be kosher.

What concerns me is that this is just 3D NAND, there is nothing in here about ROM applications. Now, I'll confess, I'm not clear on what Macronix is doing to bog-standard NAND memory to make it suitable for use as very long-lasting ROM. Totally unclear on that.
The paper says:

Which sounds promising? Unless the current carts have greater longevity at 40c...

Edit: it goes on to say that it's ideal for game grade memory. Well there we go!
Click to expand...
isn't Nintendo already using NAND for larger capacities?
 
ILikeFeet said:
isn't Nintendo already using NAND for larger capacities?
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Yeah, but it's rated for longer life somehow. But so is this, so my concern was founded on nothing. This tech seems perfectly designed for Nintendo's purposes, and it's the longevity which separates it from other tlc or 3d solutions.
 
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Neoxon said:
March is most likely for the announcement as opposed to the release, it’s just too soon.
Click to expand...
i’m gonna ask a silly question, but why would third-party know about the announcements of Nintendo console, and not simply the release window of the Nintendo’s console? To my understanding, and this is simply an understanding, something like an announcement is very much a secret thing and not meant to be known.

If there’s an announcement in say, March, why would they (third parties) know when Nintendo is planning to announce for when they will release a new system? That seems odd.


If thirds are to know about the release, then whatever game will be there day one and the target window of the system, those should be ready way beforehand and also the follow up for the first year of the system. Which can be 9 months, a year or maybe more depending on what it is (new game or newly added to the system pile eg Xbox and PlayStation along with this system).


And I suppose the caveat that will be focused on is that Nintendo wants the games ready by March, so they can announce it in March. But my one concern is that it seems like a really short window to have games ready to present while also announcing it, unless the actual showcase of the device is later And the March thing is simply akin to the 3DS reveal which was a PDF released to the press.


But why would a third party know that Nintendo is doing that? The report is that thirds were talking about a timing of March. But I find it odd that they’d know when Nintendo is going to announce it.
 
Ojoloco said:
It has already been explained here that the elimination of a game in a rating does not mean that that rating was an error, since it frequently happens with games that are leaked via rating.
Click to expand...
It's also worth mentioning that, even if it was a mistake, it doesn't really eliminate the possibility of RDR2 on Switch 2 in the near future. It just means they messed up a rating, that doesn't mean that the port doesn't exist.

As for if it's worth thinking about right now? Idk, it's probably worth keeping this info on the backburner. Shit happens, it's not really worth stewing over. Though who am I kidding, for as long as we're in this stage of the console cycle, we're probably going to be thinking of the same things again and again and again and again for the rest of this thread's existence.
 
Skittzo said:
Using new console R&D to justify the expense, as well as waiting longer for the tech to mature (they're putting out more layers now?), and being able to use the tech to its fullest extent (the increased bandwidth) are all reasons to hold off on doing it until you've got a new console. Additionally as LiC said, presenting the new format as part of the reason to upgrade to the new gen product.

I'm sure they've been working closely with Macronix for years on how best to initiate the changeover, but doing it at a hard transitional period makes much more sense for all parties involved.
Click to expand...
Nobody would upgrade to a new gen for higher capacity and cheaper (for devs and publishers) cards. If the current Switch had that, it woudnt make next gen a less appealing product.
 
ReddDreadtheLead said:
i’m gonna ask a silly question, but why would third-party know about the announcements of Nintendo console, and not simply the release window of the Nintendo’s console? To my understanding, and this is simply an understanding, something like an announcement is very much a secret thing and not meant to be known.

If there’s an announcement in say, March, why would they (third parties) know when Nintendo is planning to announce for when they will release a new system? That seems odd.
Click to expand...
Just an educated guess, but if Nintendo's marketing third party games with their console, there's a better than awful chance that third-parties would know. They'd be given a deadline to submit a port to Nintendo and be asked permission if they can include the game in the device's marketing materials. Not saying that they would, just that it's plausible.
 
ReddDreadtheLead said:
i’m gonna ask a silly question, but why would third-party know about the announcements of Nintendo console, and not simply the release window of the Nintendo’s console? To my understanding, and this is simply an understanding, something like an announcement is very much a secret thing and not meant to be known.

If there’s an announcement in say, March, why would they (third parties) know when Nintendo is planning to announce for when they will release a new system? That seems odd.


If thirds are to know about the release, then whatever game will be there day one and the target window of the system, those should be ready way beforehand and also the follow up for the first year of the system. Which can be 9 months, a year or maybe more depending on what it is (new game or newly added to the system pile eg Xbox and PlayStation along with this system).


And I suppose the caveat that will be focused on is that Nintendo wants the games ready by March, so they can announce it in March. But my one concern is that it seems like a really short window to have games ready to present while also announcing it, unless the actual showcase of the device is later And the March thing is simply akin to the 3DS reveal which was a PDF released to the press.


But why would a third party know that Nintendo is doing that? The report is that thirds were talking about a timing of March. But I find it odd that they’d know when Nintendo is going to announce it.
Click to expand...
Probably because said third-party publishers would need to know when it’ll be ok to announce their Switch 2 games. That plus if they want their game(s) to be featured in the Switch 2 reveal.
 
LiC said:
Just for the record, the estimates for DLSS in this thread have always been done with this understanding. And it's wasn't just guessing; people have tested it on other hardware, or referenced the big table of execution time estimates Nvidia publishes where you can see it going up to several milliseconds.
Click to expand...
Oh sure, it's just fun to see it presented in such a visual and accessible way. For Entertainment Purposes Only ☺️ .
 
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The more time passes the more i'm starting to think we might see a repeat of what Nintendo did with the Switch 1. So a short reveal video showcasing the features and possibilities of the system with some game footage in October followed by a proper presentation in January, and March being the release. (October really can't come soon enough!)

I don't know how or what kinds of features they could show this time, since the Switch 2 is literally just the same thing with more power, but maybe it will have much more new features or gimmicks that justify one such October reveal video again.

Although like ReddDreadtheLead said, it might as well just be a deadline for devs & publishers to get their game presentations ready for a Direct or a reveal of some kind.
 
Neoxon said:
Probably because said third-party publishers would need to know when it’ll be ok to announce their Switch 2 games. That plus if they want their game(s) to be featured in the Switch 2 reveal.
Click to expand...

So what is it? March announcement or March reveal?

'Cause if it's the latter, it's extremely likely it releases in H1. ^^
 
Hermii said:
Nobody would upgrade to a new gen for higher capacity and cheaper (for devs and publishers) cards. If the current Switch had that, it woudnt make next gen a less appealing product.
Click to expand...
I meant for devs to upgrade games to the new product. The cost savings in terms of optimization/compression work plus generally lower cost for game media would be enticing to get them to jump on board early.
 
Bonejack said:
So what is it? March announcement or March reveal?

'Cause if it's the latter, it's extremely likely it releases in H1. ^^
Click to expand...
Announcement & reveal are the same thing, so I don’t get the separation. A March reveal & a September release would give Nintendo 6 months to market the Switch 2 ahead of launch. It’d be 1 months more than what the Switch 1 had, but not too far off from that marketing cycle. Plus Nintendo can use the February Direct to tie up any loose ends for the Switch 1 (FE Echoes Genealogy, F-Zero GX, Metroid Prime 2 & 3, etc.) ahead of the Switch 2 reveal.
 
Neoxon said:
Announcement & reveal are the same thing, so I don’t get the separation. A March reveal & a September release would give Nintendo 6 months to market the Switch 2 ahead of launch. It’d be 1 months more than what the Switch 1 had, but not too far off from that marketing cycle. Plus Nintendo can use the February Direct to tie up any loose ends for the Switch 1 (FE Echoes Genealogy, F-Zero GX, Metroid Prime 2 & 3, etc.) ahead of the Switch 2 reveal.
Click to expand...

Switch was announced in 2016. (And no, thirds definitely didn't need their games/promo done at that time, every good video editor slaps some random gameplay on a in-screen display ^^)

The big reveal with third party game announcement was in January 2017. That was the point where devs actually had to have promo / games ready for.

So if devs need to have their stuff ready by March 2024, it would be the reveal. And that would be close to launch given Switch was January to March 2017.
 
Neoxon said:
Probably because said third-party publishers would need to know when it’ll be ok to announce their Switch 2 games. That plus if they want their game(s) to be featured in the Switch 2 reveal.
Click to expand...
The types of devs at gamescom learning about the Switch 2 for the first time are probably not the types of devs who would have games features in a short video reveal.
 
oldpuck said:
The Nitro Deck

Have mixed feelings about the way they're marketing this, but the concept is sort of neat. It's a complete controller that attaches to a switch, but doesn't use the joycon rails at all, instead connecting via the USB-C port to reduce latency. The implication seems to also be that it effectively is a dock. You plug the HDMI cable in, and stick out the kickstand, and it's in TV mode.
Click to expand...
The reviews for this are looking preeeeeeeetty nice.
 
Bonejack said:
Switch was announced in 2016. (And no, thirds definitely didn't need their games/promo done at that time, every good video editor slaps some random gameplay on a in-screen display ^^)

The big reveal with third party game announcement was in January 2017. That was the point where devs actually had to have promo / games ready for.

So if devs need to have their stuff ready by March 2024, it would be the reveal. And that would be close to launch given Switch was January to March 2017.
Click to expand...
It’s not that they need to be done, but rather presentable. Kinda like Skyrim during the Switch 1 reveal.

robertman2 said:
The people who buy a Switch 2 year one are not the people who buy a Switch year seven
Click to expand...
Maybe not the majority, but there’s likely some overlap. And from Nintendo’s perspective, they may not want to take away from Mario Wonder’s spotlight.
 
SoldierDelta said:
Just an educated guess, but if Nintendo's marketing third party games with their console, there's a better than awful chance that third-parties would know. They'd be given a deadline to submit a port to Nintendo and be asked permission if they can include the game in the device's marketing materials. Not saying that they would, just that it's plausible.
Click to expand...

The developers of any third party games Nintendo would want to use in an announcement trailer would not have needed to be shown a demo at Gamescom last month.
 
Neoxon said:
It’s not that they need to be done, but rather presentable. Kinda like Skyrim during the Switch 1 reveal.


Maybe not the majority, but there’s likely some overlap. And from Nintendo’s perspective, they may not want to take away from Mario Wonder’s spotlight.
Click to expand...
Reveal it after Wonder has been out a few weeks, problem solved
 
Hermii said:
Nobody would upgrade to a new gen for higher capacity and cheaper (for devs and publishers) cards. If the current Switch had that, it woudnt make next gen a less appealing product.
Click to expand...
Current gen Switch using new card memory, but with the same package/body/connector, would be a franken-product only halfway between the current cards and what Nintendo will actually use on next-gen. That's it's own R&D expenditure on top of the proper one for the real new cards.

So there are pros to waiting (doing everything properly, with the right budget and focus, no questionable half measures). And it's questionable what the pros of implementing those half measures would be, because at this point everybody has gotten used to the way things are. It's all baked in to expectations. Suddenly having cheap (post-R&D) 64 GB cards available for the current Switch isn't going to really change things in year 6 or 7 when Nintendo is already actively trying to get people on board to their new hardware. Nobody is going to re-release physical versions of something that had a download banner before, and nobody's going to greenlight any new Switch 1 projects they weren't already planning just because the physical margin has improved.
 
Neoxon said:
Announcement & reveal are the same thing, so I don’t get the separation.
Click to expand...
In my mind, announcement would be a big standard press release or short statement like what they did for the 3DS or the Switch (when we only knew it as the NX). Basically "Nintendo Co. Ltd. will release [insert name here] in fiscal year ending March 202X. Details to follow on [insert date/event here]."

Reveal would be actually seeing the console, ala past E3 blowouts or the Switch reveal video.
 
Hermii said:
Calling it MK 10 or X or whatever won't cause any confusion or lose them a single sale. It's the tenth MK game.
Click to expand...
I have a feeling it will either just be called Mario Kart as in a soft reboot like the soon to be released Forza Motorsport or they’ll give it a sub title Mario Kart: DLSS etc. I don’t see them calling it Mario Kart 10 or X personally.
 
ReddDreadtheLead said:
i’m gonna ask a silly question, but why would third-party know about the announcements of Nintendo console, and not simply the release window of the Nintendo’s console? To my understanding, and this is simply an understanding, something like an announcement is very much a secret thing and not meant to be known.

If there’s an announcement in say, March, why would they (third parties) know when Nintendo is planning to announce for when they will release a new system? That seems odd.


If thirds are to know about the release, then whatever game will be there day one and the target window of the system, those should be ready way beforehand and also the follow up for the first year of the system. Which can be 9 months, a year or maybe more depending on what it is (new game or newly added to the system pile eg Xbox and PlayStation along with this system).


And I suppose the caveat that will be focused on is that Nintendo wants the games ready by March, so they can announce it in March. But my one concern is that it seems like a really short window to have games ready to present while also announcing it, unless the actual showcase of the device is later And the March thing is simply akin to the 3DS reveal which was a PDF released to the press.


But why would a third party know that Nintendo is doing that? The report is that thirds were talking about a timing of March. But I find it odd that they’d know when Nintendo is going to announce it.
Click to expand...

Nintendo could brief a developer on SNG this month and then announce the system to the public next month. Developers do not need time to prepare the port in order to announce it. So knowing the "reveal" month isn't significant. A third party can have their marketing team put together a trailer using non SNG footage within a few days, they do not need to wait until the port is in a mature state in order to announce it.

If I were a developer that was just briefed on the new Nintendo hardware would the announcement timing being a hot topic of conversation? For reasons previously stated, its not important for them to have the ports done in time for announcement. However, if they were told the new hardware is targeting a launch possibly as soon at March 2024, that is much different, and the clock is now ticking for developers who want to have something ready for launch or near launch. It would also be a hot topic because this very short turnaround time would catch a lot of developers by surprise.

For all we know Nintendo has numerous SNG games in the final stages of development. The internal teams at Nintendo would have had target specs to work with for years now so they are in a much different situation compared to a third party just receiving the info this year.
 
Samuspet said:
I have a feeling it will either just be called Mario Kart as in a soft reboot like the soon to be released Forza Motorsport or they’ll give it a sub title Mario Kart: DLSS etc. I don’t see them calling it Mario Kart 10 or X personally.
Click to expand...
There's no way they'l name it after some rendering tech. You could argue Nintendo 64 did, but bit counts had a lot of marketing power back in the 90s.

But yea, I could see it having a subtitle.
 
eye0h said:
TRUE. that's the angle we needed. Jim Ryan is fucking TERRIFIED of DLSS technology. The ransomware attack leaked some of his emails where he used numerous expletives after being told a tablet could achieve visuals close to the PS5 and ray tracing that may even SURPASS the PS5. On multiple occasions he described it as "unfair horseshit software magic". Him stepping down is a clear sign of weakness that the company is worried about the future of gaming where the T239 reigns supreme. There are also reports that he tried downloading an SNES emulator on the Playstation Portal and it "exploded".
Click to expand...

The "T239 reigns supreme" is some terminator ish, a bit terrifying...for the competition
 
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Lugia667 said:
maybe the industry really does need new hardware soon, look at all these layoffs.....
Click to expand...
This was inevitable, and I hate it. The whole point of a merger and acquisition cycle is layoffs. The idea is that you convince a bank and/or investors to put forth a bunch of money based on the idea that the combined company will have the revenue of the original companies, but because of "redundancies" you'll have less overhead. Meaning you lay off one of the two HR teams, you combine the healthcare packages, you mandate a single game engine, and toss the other team out, etcetera.

But if it runs according to plan*, it happens a few years out. What happened this time is that there was a flush of money as the M&A battle heated up, lots of middle of the road studios fattened themselves up for acquisition, and lots of larger companies starting expending capital to acquire. Even companies that weren't participating saw their market cap change because of the bubble, creating an inflow of wealth.

The bubble bursts, some of the acquisitions turn out to be bad - or even good but not as good as some suit made it look on paper, and the bottom falls out. Companies that extended themselves need to retrench, and even companies that didn't - even companies who were making as much money before the bubble as they are making after it, who didn't act on the bubble at all - find the stock and assets they banked their game development on suddenly devalued, and facing nervous loan guarantors and tight fisted banks. They have to retrench, too.

This is part of way I have been so pissed of about the Actiblizzard deal with MS. I think acquiring ABK will be good for ABK, and having a strong competitor to Sony is a good thing as well, and MS's grip there is slipping. But the overall industry consolidation isn't healthy. There is a genuine argument about mergers and acquisitions strengthening both companies, but Giant MegaCorps are not models of efficiency, they're models of brute force domination, and ABK was already too goddamn big.

When it comes to Switch 2, this might mean a larger percentage of multiplats have to hit the console, because the money and ambition to target a vanishing subset of the top tier consoles and PCs won't be there, while companies will want to leverage even more of their existing development. But at the cost of there being few interesting games in the first place, and fewer studios making them.

What I hope is that the market rapidly corrects, and the laid off staff quickly find new work, and that major talent go indie and/or found their own studios. The initial consolidation wasn't good, but if contraction results in a sudden sprouting of smaller, more interesting studios, that will balm the wound a little bit. But having had some friends who didn't make it through the last wave of layoffs in the industry, I wouldn't wish this on anyone who doesn't wear a tie to work.

*it never does
 
eye0h said:
TRUE. that's the angle we needed. Jim Ryan is fucking TERRIFIED of DLSS technology. The ransomware attack leaked some of his emails where he used numerous expletives after being told a tablet could achieve visuals close to the PS5 and ray tracing that may even SURPASS the PS5. On multiple occasions he described it as "unfair horseshit software magic". Him stepping down is a clear sign of weakness that the company is worried about the future of gaming where the T239 reigns supreme. There are also reports that he tried downloading an SNES emulator on the Playstation Portal and it "exploded".
Click to expand...
Nah, he is just retiring before they start seriously working on the PS6 and beyond. I would say Sony (and maybe Microsoft) is looking into the hybrid tablet idea, no doubt.
 
oldpuck said:
What I hope is that the market rapidly corrects, and the laid off staff quickly find new work, and that major talent go indie and/or found their own studios. The initial consolidation wasn't good, but if contraction results in a sudden sprouting of smaller, more interesting studios, that will balm the wound a little bit. But having had some friends who didn't make it through the last wave of layoffs in the industry, I wouldn't wish this on anyone who doesn't wear a tie to work.
Click to expand...
well now that the bubble is popping, there shouldn't be any more Striking Distances and Ascendant Studios, right?


right?
 
can someone explain how games get rated by accident? i would presume there is a submission process and they don't just choose a random game to rate for a system it's not intended to release on.
 
YolkFolk said:
It doesn’t though. You decided it did before even seeing proper gameplay and refused to change your stance when it became clear you were wrong. It’s a massive improvement over what Switch had before.

Click to expand...

I disagree. I’ve spent the majority of the morning watching gameplay. Nothing about the graphics of that game looks good (to me). If it works for someone else good for them. I will wait for fc25 for a proper full feature version on switch 2.
 
oldpuck said:
The Nitro Deck

Have mixed feelings about the way they're marketing this, but the concept is sort of neat. It's a complete controller that attaches to a switch, but doesn't use the joycon rails at all, instead connecting via the USB-C port to reduce latency. The implication seems to also be that it effectively is a dock. You plug the HDMI cable in, and stick out the kickstand, and it's in TV mode.
Click to expand...
Missed this, but interesting the they're advertising low latency over USB-C; my understanding is that USB is actually the highest latency input method available, though I've seen some claims that it's better when not going through the dock.
 
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Tron1 said:
I disagree. I’ve spent the majority of the morning watching gameplay. Nothing about the graphics of that game looks good (to me). If it works for someone else good for them. I will wait for fc25 for a proper full feature version on switch 2.
Click to expand...

Like I say, you made that opinion very early on and refused to change it.

It’s a huge leap over the last FIFA game and although it isn’t at the level of the other versions, it gets the absolute most out of the current Switch hardware. The player models up close especially look light years over the Legacy Edition.

It’s comfortably the best ‘real’ sports game on Switch, although the competition isn’t great tbf! Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying this game is amazing either but it certainly doesn’t look ‘horrible’ and it’s a good effort from EA.

IMG-7985.jpg

IMG-7986.jpg
 
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