To quickly add to Thraktor's (excellent) point - investors talking to investors won't use "next-gen hardware" to mean what we in the thread might mean it to mean. "Next-gen" to us means "4-6x performance improvement," to a stock analyst it means "the end of the Switch life-cycle." Citi is telling investors that they expect the 110 million Switch install base to be a critical driver of first party software sales into 2024, a statement which I doubt many of us would find off-base.We shouldn't disregard it, as it's this person's job to stay informed about these things, but it's still a prediction, not a statement of fact.
There's always someone in this thread who thinks it's open mic-night, isn't there?Drake is this gens SNES CD
Depends entirely on process node though. Not even the worlds best 8nm soc can compete with Apple.What if NVidia uses the Switch Pro as marketing? putting an "nvidia inside" on the box, on the back of the console or even in the boot animation, in exchange for giving a discount on each chip produced.
With the world becoming more and more ARM, I think the Tegras today are the only ones that have the ability to go head-to-head with Apple's M chips.
Starting a line of Tegras for smartphones and laptops, with the marketing of being the company that made Nintendo invest in high-end hardware again, would be a great starting point.
What if NVidia uses the Switch Pro as marketing? putting an "nvidia inside" on the box, on the back of the console or even in the boot animation, in exchange for giving a discount on each chip produced.
With the world becoming more and more ARM, I think the Tegras today are the only ones that have the ability to go head-to-head with Apple's M chips.
Starting a line of Tegras for smartphones and laptops, with the marketing of being the company that made Nintendo invest in high-end hardware again, would be a great starting point.
What if NVidia uses the Switch Pro as marketing? putting an "nvidia inside" on the box, on the back of the console or even in the boot animation, in exchange for giving a discount on each chip produced.
With the world becoming more and more ARM, I think the Tegras today are the only ones that have the ability to go head-to-head with Apple's M chips.
Starting a line of Tegras for smartphones and laptops, with the marketing of being the company that made Nintendo invest in high-end hardware again, would be a great starting point.
I brought this up awhile back in wondering would Nintendo ever do another licensing agreement like they did with ATI on the GameCube with Nvidia in future hardware. Looking back on that situation ATi being AMD now, Nintendo were the only company using anything AMD related in their console and now AMD are in everything but Nintendo hardware today...What if NVidia uses the Switch Pro as marketing? putting an "nvidia inside" on the box, on the back of the console or even in the boot animation, in exchange for giving a discount on each chip produced.
With the world becoming more and more ARM, I think the Tegras today are the only ones that have the ability to go head-to-head with Apple's M chips.
Starting a line of Tegras for smartphones and laptops, with the marketing of being the company that made Nintendo invest in high-end hardware again, would be a great starting point.
If nVidia is willing to cut some sort of deal for the logo, sure why not, but from an engineering standpoint, anyone sourcing hardware for mobile devices knows what options Qualcom has vs what nVidia has available.I brought this up awhile back in wondering would Nintendo ever do another licensing agreement like they did with ATI on the GameCube with Nvidia in future hardware. Looking back on that situation ATi being AMD now, Nintendo were the only company using anything AMD related in their console and now AMD are in everything but Nintendo hardware today...
The Switch selling over 100 million units around the world might do more for Nvidia in the mobile space if their logo is placed on both the box and console. We don't have a lot of great examples of how Nvidia's architecture performs in low powered devices other than Switch and what's been accomplished with the dated hardware is pretty astounding.
Yes, that's what I believe. Nvidia must have bigger plans for the Tegra than just a line of chips for Nintendo or self-driving cars, they have the potential to enter the market for socs for smartphones and laptops. And in that case, being recognized worldwide, as the company that produced a tablet for Nintendo that runs current-gen games in 4K would be an advantage.I brought this up awhile back in wondering would Nintendo ever do another licensing agreement like they did with ATI on the GameCube with Nvidia in future hardware. Looking back on that situation ATi being AMD now, Nintendo were the only company using anything AMD related in their console and now AMD are in everything but Nintendo hardware today...
The Switch selling over 100 million units around the world might do more for Nvidia in the mobile space if their logo is placed on both the box and console. We don't have a lot of great examples of how Nvidia's architecture performs in low powered devices other than Switch and what's been accomplished with the dated hardware is pretty astounding.
CorrectAnd it’s not saying 2025, it’s saying anytime within the fiscal year that ends in 2025, which is March 31st 2025.
If there ever was a pro model imo, it was probably just better clock profiles on Mariko.@NateDrake, just wondering: have you ever heard of a Pro model that ended up being scraped?
And if yes, could you maybe tentatively say what was the main reason?
Exactly, and the logo on the box doesn't target those folks anyway. It targets PC consumers who might want to buy the same hardware elsewhere. NVidia already dominates that market, and as cool as Drake is, it won't be slapping around Series X or PS5. I'm not sure it's a brand synergy that NVidia wants or needsIf nVidia is willing to cut some sort of deal for the logo, sure why not, but from an engineering standpoint, anyone sourcing hardware for mobile devices knows what options Qualcom has vs what nVidia has available.
it hasn't.Sorry to add to the doom and gloom, but has inflation gotten so bad that maybe Nintendo scrapped Drake to go with cheaper hardware? I know everyone says it would cost a lot for Drake to be scrapped this late in the game, but if Nintendo was going to sell Drake at a profit, maybe they wouldn’t see the benefit if they had to charge ~$500 or more just to break even?
Or Nintendo's new hardware uses a fork of Horizon for the OS.IIRC traces of both the switch lite and the switch OLED were discovered in the firmware code many months before their respective releases, if nothing has been found about drake it could only mean two things: either drake is far from releasing or it will have a completely different firmware (which also means that it is a successor and not a pro version)
Ah optimism.. but deep inside, we all know that we'll play TotK in 720p/25fpsOr Nintendo's new hardware uses a fork of Horizon for the OS.
HorizonOS, the firmware in Switch, is descended from HorizonOS, the firmware in the 3DS. 3DS firmware updates did not contain references to the Switch.IIRC traces of both the switch lite and the switch OLED were discovered in the firmware code many months before their respective releases, if nothing has been found about drake it could only mean two things: either drake is far from releasing or it will have a completely different firmware (which also means that it is a successor and not a pro version)
It doesn't have to be completely different to not show up directly. There's a lot of space between "it's just another hardware config Nintendo didn't bother to hide" and "the firmware will be completely different".IIRC traces of both the switch lite and the switch OLED were discovered in the firmware code many months before their respective releases, if nothing has been found about drake it could only mean two things: either drake is far from releasing or it will have a completely different firmware (which also means that it is a successor and not a pro version)
Out of curiosity, since you have your ear to the ground there better than me - anything of note since the new DataPatch patchtype?It doesn't have to be completely different to not show up directly. There's a lot of space between "it's just another hardware config Nintendo didn't bother to hide" and "the firmware will be completely different".
Besides there certainly have been some odd findings in the firmware lately that would most straightforwardly be explained by new hardware coming soon.
Is there some place that explain all the "models" present in HOS firmware? Like Calcio and Copper that you mentioned?HorizonOS, the firmware in Switch, is descended from HorizonOS, the firmware in the 3DS. 3DS firmware updates did not contain references to the Switch.
Successor doesn't necessarily mean completely different firmware, firmware doesn't necessarily leak hardware.
The OLED and the Lite models are the same hardware architecture, and use the same firmware. It is unsurprising that Nintendo kept their development in sync, and because the firmware was full of references to multiple unreleased models (Calcio and Copper) Nintendo had plausible deniability.
Drake will have a new SOC architecture, and Horizon is not a general purpose OS. Every component knows a lot about the hardware it runs on, so it will need a huge overhaul. It makes sense, from a development point of view, to keep those branches separate, which eliminates leaks.
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
I haven't noticed any movement around that, at least. Not that I've been looking super proactively.Out of curiosity, since you have your ear to the ground there better than me - anything of note since the new DataPatch patchtype?
There's information spread out across Switchbrew, like these pages for example:Is there some place that explain all the "models" present in HOS firmware? Like Calcio and Copper that you mentioned?
Is there some place that explain all the "models" present in HOS firmware? Like Calcio and Copper that you mentioned?
IIRC traces of both the switch lite and the switch OLED were discovered in the firmware code many months before their respective releases, if nothing has been found about drake it could only mean two things: either drake is far from releasing or it will have a completely different firmware (which also means that it is a successor and not a pro version)
If you read this portion, it explicitly mentions HOS which is HorizonOS in the NVN2 API. If it doesn’t show up in current firmware, it’s intentional.Q1: Is NVN2 being created for Nintendo?
A1: Yes.
- NVN is a custom graphics API available only in the Nintendo Switch SDK. It has never been shown to exist in any other form.
- NVN can run on Windows, but only to aid in the development of Switch games.
NVN2 -
- NVN's leaked source code is full of references to NX (Switch), HOS (the Switch's Horizon OS), and Hovi (a codename for Nintendo). Sections that were newly added to NVN2 still have such references.
unlikely. binned marikos didn't make it into the lite modelI don’t know how this works, but could/would binned Drake chips possibly be used for a Drake lite?
What @ILikeFeet said. The lite switches perform exactly the same as v2 and OLED models. The only differences are form factor, display, video output (or lack thereof) and battery life.I don’t know how this works, but could/would binned Drake chips possibly be used for a Drake lite?
This has been discussed before and no they don't.I don’t know how this works, but could/would binned Drake chips possibly be used for a Drake lite?
The likelihood is highly not likely. You'd most likely be looking at Nvidia creating another Jetson Nano SKU to absorb binned chips, as well as a new Shield (which would be marketed for its AV1 codec support, meaning lightning-fast low-bandwidth 4K Netflix, among other things, and would be one of the only set-top boxes to offer it). Or, if Microsoft has ironed more of the kinks out, they could opt instead to use binned T239 chips for a Windows micro-PC. Or perhaps all of the above.I don’t know how this works, but could/would binned Drake chips possibly be used for a Drake lite?
I'd be surprised if resolution and performance isn't similar to botw port on switch. The game was built for the switch first and will work around it's hardware. Just seems like the Nintendo thing to do to have baseline handled performance to be solid. But who knows.. maybe not.Ah optimism.. but deep inside, we all know that we'll play TotK in 720p/25fps
Well BotW was a port, I imagine the sequel will be more modern in engine features, things like mixed precision will likely be used, it's suppose to be a much more vertical game, and they will have to find a way to not lose performance there.I'd be surprised if resolution and performance isn't similar to botw port on switch. The game was built for the switch first and will work around it's hardware. Just seems like the Nintendo thing to do to have baseline handled performance to be solid. But who knows.. maybe not.
Sorry to add to the doom and gloom, but has inflation gotten so bad that maybe Nintendo scrapped Drake to go with cheaper hardware? I know everyone says it would cost a lot for Drake to be scrapped this late in the game, but if Nintendo was going to sell Drake at a profit, maybe they wouldn’t see the benefit if they had to charge ~$500 or more just to break even?
Honestly, a bit of the corporate planning, manufacturing and finance side would likely help keep things more grounded. A new hardware launch is a 3-4 year ordeal and, at some point in that process, it becomes incredibly hazardous to delay or take it back.I don't know anything about hardware (and have a hard time keeping up to the technical discussion ITT even though I try to stay informed!), but from the financial side of things, it would be way too late into the product development with the sunk costs too high to start from scratch for a product that is supposedly meant to be on the market for maybe half a decade plus and takes a similar timeframe to get out to the market.
The losses involved in ceasing development and planned production, terminating deals (likely incurring compensation claims for damages), and starting development anew when the post-Covid economy hit would definitely be higher than just taking partial losses if the produced units eventually sell at discounted prices. At least they recuperate some of the sunk cost that way. The alternative is equivalent to burning money, given that the product is in a marketable state (which it by all accounts is).
There's information spread out across Switchbrew, like these pages for example:
Secure Monitor - Nintendo Switch Brew
switchbrew.orgSystem Settings - Nintendo Switch Brew
switchbrew.org
Bascially:
Icosa = Erista (launch) Hybrid
Iowa = Mariko (red box/v2) Hybrid
Hoag = Lite
Aula = OLED
Copper = unreleased Erista TV-only device
Calcio = unreleased Mariko TV-only device
It's widely speculated that Copper and Calcio are just test boards that Nintendo uses internally.
Thanks guys!!Secure Monitor - Nintendo Switch Brew
switchbrew.org
Icosa is the original Switch, and Copper is labeled some places as a "simulator", but it could be physical hardware used for development. It has no cartridge slot, or screen of its own.
Iowa is the Mariko model with better battery life. It also removes the TSEC - the Tegra Security module - which was found to have an exploit. Hoag is the Lite.
Aula is the OLED model. For a long time, this was thought to be the Switch 4k, because it contains references to a 4k capable chip which turned out to be in the OLED dock. This is a case where dataminers - who are smart, knowledgeable people! - and the community around them were loudly touting something that turned out to be wrong. They made the mistake that lots of the press did, that the OLED and the 4k model were the same. They (rightly!) saw that OLED was running the same SOC as the other models, and many of them assumed that Nintendo was going to launch an upscaling 4k dock. Obviously that didn't come to pass.
Calcio is the same as Copper but for Mariko. Some folks were fairly confident that Calcio was going to be an actual piece of consumer hardware, a digital only TV only switch (because it has no cartridge slot or screen). In fact, it was almost definitely just an internal devkit for Aula/Hoag/Iowa.
Edit: Didn't see @Pokemaniac said it faster and better
Drake is coming, but it’s on you to decide if a potential later 2023 or 2024 release is too long to wait or if you want an OLED model in the interim.The only reason I'm not buying the Pokémon SV OLED is Drake. And now I don't know what to do... May be wait for a TotK OLED?
Nintendo is such a conservative company when it comes to their hardware. I don't see them taking any of those delays. Excellent points and thanks for the insight.We shouldn't disregard it, as it's this person's job to stay informed about these things, but it's still a prediction, not a statement of fact. Honestly I'm not that concerned about secondary sources (ie analysts, leakers, insiders, etc.) these days, as we already have multiple primary sources to rely on now, directly from Nvidia.
The hack earlier this year showed that work was started on the new device sometime in late 2019 or early 2020, and that by early 2022 there was a largely full-featured SDK in place built around the T239 chip. That start date would be consistent with an initial plan of releasing sometime in late 2022 or early 2023. Of course this could have been delayed, and plans can always change, but we recently saw Nvidia start pushing upstream commits for T239 into the Linux kernel. This isn't something you see until manufacturing has started (or at least engineering samples are available), and indicates the chip has started, or is soon to start, full scale manufacturing.
Therein represents my issue with the prospect of a significant delay. If Nintendo had pushed back to, say 2024, earlier this year, Nvidia wouldn't have started manufacturing. If they had pushed back by a year or more then that's something you really want to do before tapeout, as a good design for 2023 is not the same as a good design for 2024. They could have taken the year to modify the chip, either back-porting some Ada features, or migrating to a different manufacturing process. Once tapeout is complete and manufacturing starts, you've pretty much passed the point of no return.
Hypothetically speaking let's say Nintendo has made the decision for a year-plus delay after the start of manufacturing, in the last couple of months or so. This is basically the worst possible time to do so, as Nintendo would effectively have three choices:
None of these make sense to me. Nintendo would have known that any changes to schedule after the chip moves to manufacturing would be extremely expensive, and they let manufacturing go ahead. That manufacturing timescale indicates a H1 2023 release, so that's still my assumption unless I see very significant evidence otherwise.
- Stockpile chips, as their contract with Nvidia almost certainly would have included a minimum order in the first year. These chips would then be sitting in a warehouse, depreciating in value for a year or more. They don't have a chance to adjust the chip for the revised release window.
- Stop manufacturing and restart later. Again, they likely have a minimum order in their contract with Nvidia, and would almost certainly have to pay a hefty penalty to get out of it, but may be cheaper than stockpiling. This also prevents them from adjusting the chip for the new release window.
- Cancel manufacturing and work on a new version of the chip. Allows them to adjust the chip to account for the new release window, but comes at signifiant cost. Not only would they likely have to pay hefty penalties for pulling out of their commitment to Nvidia on the original chip (after almost 100% of the R&D dollars have been spent), but they would also have to pay significant additional R&D costs to design this new version of the chip and go through the full tapeout, verification and manufacturing process all over again.
Yeah, it being semingly planned for this year but then being moved for reasons indicates to me that 2024 is to far off,Drake is coming, but it’s on you to decide if a potential later 2023 or 2024 release is too long to wait or if you want an OLED model in the interim.
I don’t think Drake will release that late for all of the practical reasons cited in this thread, but an exact date is still unknown.
Yeah it definitely should be. But I do think they will aim for a similar performance and resolution to botw on switch in the end 720p-900p ~30 fps)Well BotW was a port, I imagine the sequel will be more modern in engine features, things like mixed precision will likely be used, it's suppose to be a much more vertical game, and they will have to find a way to not lose performance there.
Do you have a v1 or v2 switch already? If so, yeah I'd wait at this point. At least until February. That's when we should hear about Drake, if it's releasing by May/mid year.The only reason I'm not buying the Pokémon SV OLED is Drake. And now I don't know what to do... May be wait for a TotK OLED?
it wont be a port...butat the same time, with more verticality and stuff they will consume the engine improvements they had pretty fast. botw is still one of the best performing open world games out there on switch, so i really dont think that there is that much to improve on the engine in regards to performance on switch.Well BotW was a port, I imagine the sequel will be more modern in engine features, things like mixed precision will likely be used, it's suppose to be a much more vertical game, and they will have to find a way to not lose performance there.