BlueManifest
Bob-omb
Haven’t seen this any where when did this come up
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StarTopic Future Nintendo Hardware & Technology Speculation & Discussion |ST| (Read the staff posts before commenting!)
- Thread starter Dakhil
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BlueManifest
Bob-omb
Sony Has Purchased A Stake In From Software Owner Kadokawa Corporation
The parent company of Bloodborne and Dark Souls studio From Software has formed a capital alliance with Sony.
www.gamespot.com
This did happen 1 year ago, it could have been the first steps
Nintendo also holds shares in KadokawaSony Has Purchased A Stake In From Software Owner Kadokawa Corporation
The parent company of Bloodborne and Dark Souls studio From Software has formed a capital alliance with Sony.
This did happen 1 year ago, it could have been the first steps
But Tencent holds the largest amount of shares at under 7%. If anyone buys Kadokawa, it'd be Tencent first
Alovon11
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Honestly, I'd say it would be Bandai first tbh, considering how they have the licensing deals with From Soft for Dark Souls and now Elden Ring.
Tentacle-tropes
Kremling
If we are talking Sony in general then I could see it but I doubt it. Sony seems to want access to streaming platforms for anime rather then the individual studios who make up that service. In the future perhaps but currently they don’t plus Kadokawa seemingly has no want to sell & enjoying growth. However, this would be buying Kadokawa for the anime and not because of FromSoftware that’s all bonus assuming they stay. And, while From has made a popular genre in no way does it replace or even fill the vacuum from losing Bethesda and potential ABK.
The quote I was responding to was for SIE which looking at their acquisitions wouldn’t be in their wheelhouse. And, SIE hasn’t struck me as a company who cares about acquiring JP devs.
Tencent (6.8%) is now #2 behind Kakao Corp. (8.3%)
https://asia.nikkei.com/Companies/Kadokawa-Corp
Celine
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Sony severely dwindled PS4 production around the time the pandemic broke out, which was a few quarters before the PS5 launch.
Hardware sales-wise Switch is in a much stronger position.
Celine
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Celine
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By the time 3DS was released, DS software already began a sharp decline.Why did Nintendo release the 3DS when the DS was at 120M units sold?
Another important factor was Nintendo willingness to annihilate the PlayStation handheld line by offering a hardware capable to run the kind of games that propelled the PSP like Monster Hunter and that DS couldn't, now that Nintendo was in a position of strength unlike in 2004 (when every third-party believed Sony would inflict the same damage to Nintendo handheld console business that a decade earlier they did to Nintendo stationary console business).
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That is true, by the time the console released the DS had a sharp software decline, but if I’m not mistaken the 3DS was announced a year ahead of the release already.By the time 3DS was released, DS software already began a sharp decline.
Another important factor was Nintendo willingness to annihilate the PlayStation handheld line by offering a hardware capable to run the kind of games that propelled the PSP like Monster Hunter and that DS couldn't, now that Nintendo was in a position of strength unlike in 2004 (when every third-party believed Sony would inflict the same damage to Nintendo handheld console business that a decade earlier they did to Nintendo stationary console business).
My point of bringing it up though is that, even during the highs nintendo wasn’t afraid to launch or announce a new platform.
Celine
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3DS was announced via press release in late March 2010 and publicly unveiled at E3 of that year.
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When is it?
As optimistic as I like to be around this - I'm getting really tired of the current hardware - I'm still bracing myself for something like this.
Despite reasonable evidence that developers had the hardware in 2020/2021, Nintendo could have changed plans. It's not like we've had a substantive update on things in quite a while - the NVN2 leak only showed us that something's being worked on, not necessarily when it's coming.
Tentacle-tropes
Kremling
According to Nintendo’s website their earning release is May 10. At this point I’m just tired of hearing about it & just waiting for it to be released. So we, can then go through all of this when the new hardware gets long in the tooth within 6mo, and going through this talk for another 4+yrs.
As it currently stands no one is going believe a word that Nintendo says. Even in the event they are being truthful and/or completely blunt like they were in 2020. We’ll know from their forecast if they are expecting hardware by the end of 2022.
Also it wouldn’t be Nintendo changing plans so much as the hardware not being scheduled to release in 2022.
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Snarky.
Certainly not where I’ll be. If they nail 4K/30 or 1440/60 I’ll be happily detached from this discussion for another 5 years.
Alovon11
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Yeah, although the discussion likely will shift to software features and figuring out the true potential of the hardware when it's actually figured out for the specs (not in that order, but you get what I mean)
Tentacle-tropes
Kremling
What can I say I’m cynical about this. It’ll probably take a moderate badly done port for discussion to rate up again.
Alovon11
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Well that's the fun thing about Drake, it's potential highly resides in software optimization due to DLSS and the Tensor cores.
it is sort of like CELL in that regard (but better in every way), but that is still a factor that devs need to optimize around Drake if they want to break far past PS4 Pro When docked level GPU performance (With far better RT Acceleration than Series S still as that is sort of constant)
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It'll sure be interesting if Nintendo really sticks with Mariko Switch as the target spec, while exclusive 3rd Party titles lean into the new hardware more.
Kenka
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This slide is scary because if the Switch userbase keeps expanding (and therefore if money keeps being made on the platform), then it might make Nintendo rethink what resources it should put now in a direct successor.
This whole 'Switch is in the middle of its lifetime' meme can have more truth in it than we might think, at least from a pure financial point of view. And Nintendo boss being an accountant makes me nervous.
edit: maybe Nintendo is so confident in the Switch's current mindshare that they will come up with a 'third pillar' (or second pillar), and that is what Drake is? It's a suggestion, I have no evidence of anything.
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kvetcha
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Wrong…thread?
Paper Cheese
Piranha Plant
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He's playing the Switch Pro port of it, obviously
kvetcha
hoopy frood
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I feel like the successor will be positioned as a brand extension. It will still be considered part of the Switch family by Nintendo.
a brand extension, like the mustang Mach e to the mustang family.
just with less bitching
Ozeiyo
Paratroopa
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I thought I was in the nintendo general direct, of course. Either that or the drake port is really worth it.
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Doesn’t Nintendo consider the GameBoy, GameBoy Color and GameBoy advance the same family of systems but the GBA is also considered the successor of the GBC/GB which of the latter two they consider the same system?
Think it would be the same here for that.
Think it would be the same here for that.
OP
OP
Nvidia to Use TSMC's 4-nm Process to Produce H100 GPUs
Nvidia, the global No. 1 graphic processing unit (GPU) company, has reportedly decided to outsource the production of its next-generation GPUs to Taiwan’s TSMC
www.businesskorea.co.kr
Serif
𝕽𝖊𝖓𝖊𝖌𝖆𝖉𝖊 𝕬𝖓𝖌𝖊𝖑
Switch Advance would be a cool name.
"The Nintendo ________ Advance, a member of the _______ family of handheld gaming consoles, was released as a successor to the original _______ line . It is a generational leap over the original ______, with exclusive titles, and played ______ games with enhancements via backwards compatibility. It continued the popular _______ brand, even after discontinuation of the original _______"
Works for both Game Boy and Switch imo, and reconciles the successor being in the same "family" (ultimately just a semantics argument... But I prefer the Advance moniker to 'New", "Pro", or "2" so let me live
)with Nvidia seemingly not happy with Samsung, Drake on TSMC 5nm seems more likely. but all of their problems seem to be with products that hit the limits of the chips rather than products that intentionally held back. there's just not enough A2000-esque examples out there.Nvidia to Use TSMC's 4-nm Process to Produce H100 GPUs
Nvidia, the global No. 1 graphic processing unit (GPU) company, has reportedly decided to outsource the production of its next-generation GPUs to Taiwan’s TSMC
there probably doesn't need to be, though. with them ordering such a large volume, it might just be better use that volume since it's already by other products
kvetcha
hoopy frood
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Yeah, this is how I imagine it going. It fits so well.Switch Advance would be a cool name.
"The Nintendo ________ Advance, a member of the _______ family of handheld gaming consoles, was released as a successor to the original _______ line . It is a generational leap over the original ______, with exclusive titles, and played ______ games with enhancements via backwards compatibility. It continued the popular _______ brand, even after discontinuation of the original _______"
Works for both Game Boy and Switch imo, and reconciles the successor being in the same "family" (ultimately just a semantics argument... But I prefer the Advance moniker to 'New", "Pro", or "2" so let me live
OP
OP
I agree. But I don't think TSMC's N6 process node can be dismissed as an option as well.
Kenka
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This is a huge blow for Samsung. The 'good' thing is that TSMC seems to have enough capacity to accept more orders.Nvidia to Use TSMC's 4-nm Process to Produce H100 GPUs
Nvidia, the global No. 1 graphic processing unit (GPU) company, has reportedly decided to outsource the production of its next-generation GPUs to Taiwan’s TSMC
It's bad for competition though.
Thraktor
"[✄]. [✄]. [✄]. [✄]." -Microsoft
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I wouldn't say it's about "hitting the limits of the chips" per se. Normally these days there are two categories of chips which you would want to manufacture on the latest and greatest manufacturing processes. The first are high performance mobile SoCs for phones/tablets/etc. where the chip is entirely limited by power consumption, and the main way to raise the performance cap is to rely on the increased efficiency of the latest manufacturing process. These are also typically very small dies, so yields are high and costs per chip are relatively low. The second category are giant HPC chips where you're hitting the reticle limit (ie the largest die you can physically make on a process) and the main way to raise the performance cap is to rely on the increased density of the latest process, allowing you to cram more transistors into your ~800mm2 die. Nvidia's A100 and H100 fit in this category. These very large dies necessarily have poor yields, but as they sell for extremely high prices they can still be economical.
Things like desktop GPUs fit in the middle of this, as they're neither strictly limited by power draw or die size. If you're on an older process, you can always go with a bigger die and/or higher power consumption to increase performance instead of using a better manufacturing process. This is effectively what Nvidia did when they chose Samsung's 8nm process over TSMC's 7nm process for Ampere. They sacrificed die size and power consumption for the apparent savings of using a cheaper process. The reported power draw of the 4000 series also points to them not being particularly concerned about power consumption for Ada either. The claim that they're moving their entire 4000 series lineup to TSMC's 5nm/4nm process, including low and mid-range chips, says to me that they're treating TSMC's 5nm as a mainstream process, not a bleeding edge one. They could have manufactured chips with the equivalent performance to AD106 on TSMC 6nm or Samsung 5nm, but they chose to stick with TSMC 5nm for the full line.
There are a few reasons they'd want to do this. Having the entire line on a single process lowers R&D costs. Increasing the volume of wafers they're ordering from TSMC likely gives them some cost reductions. Having multiple product lines on the same process also allows them flexibility with how they allocate wafers, as they can easily re-allocate between Hopper, high-end and low-end Ada chips, Grace, etc., depending on demand. It's also quite possible that, when die size and yields are taken into account, TSMC's 5nm process is simply cheaper than any of the alternatives. Samsung's 8nm process may have been a false economy for Ampere, if yields were low enough.
Regarding Drake, it sits much closer to the "high performance mobile SoC" end of the spectrum than the other end, as fundamentally any new device in the Switch form-factor is going to be inherently limited by the power consumption in handheld mode. If Nvidia were launching a new consumer-focussed mobile SoC later this year or early next year independently of Nintendo, then I'd fully expect it to be on TSMC's 5nm process. However they're not making it in isolation, and it is for Nintendo. The main argument for Drake being on 8nm is that it's closely related to Orin, and Orin's on 8nm. Orin itself doesn't have the strict power limitations of mobile SoCs, and an older process like 8nm works fine there. Using a larger die and higher power consumption isn't a big issue for Nvidia's automotive customers (the development timeline and longer validation process for an automotive chip also might have precluded a newer process). Drake is part of the same "family" as Orin, so using the same manufacturing process as it would make sense from an R&D perspective, but unlike Orin it would benefit massively from a more advanced process because of it's use-case. It's also releasing significantly later than Orin, and that changes the calculus of what process they might choose.
Personally, the reason I'm more open to Drake being manufactured on TSMC is basically a Bayesian approach stemming from just how large the GPU is. If you'd asked me a couple of months ago how likely a 12 SM GPU would have been given a Samsung 8nm process, I would have said it's extremely unlikely, bordering impossible. However, if you'd asked me how likely a 12 SM GPU is given a TSMC 5nm process, I would have said it's quite likely. I had a strong prior expectation that it would be manufactured on Samsung 8nm, but the news that it's a 12 SM GPU is much more likely to occur if they're using TSMC 5nm, so therefore I should take the possibility of it being manufactured on TSMC 5nm more seriously.
Look over there
Bob-omb
At least as far as public facing investor relations goes, GB and GBC are counted together, GBA is separate.
https://www.nintendo.co.jp/ir/en/finance/hard_soft/index.html
Kenka
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So Drake being a big chip is what would make you favor a 5nm process. It makes sense.
Lelouch0612
Growing Install Base
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Did people listen to the DF podcast ?
I heard they noticed that the latest footage of Zelda had better IQ among other things and seem to think that it was running on better hardware.
I heard they noticed that the latest footage of Zelda had better IQ among other things and seem to think that it was running on better hardware.
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It’s not being ruled out, just that 5nm isn’t being ruled out like before and seriously being entertained as just as likely as 8nm.
6nm could also work.
It’s more than just size, but also power draw could seriously be an issue here for a portable console.
Currently waiting for more verification but from what we know of now, 4 cores @ 1GHz + gpu of unknown shader amount clocked to 420MHz consumes 15W, again waiting more verification on this information.
But if it’s a low SM active and nothing else is on, consuming 15W, then I have a hard time thinking 8nm is what they would go for.
Yes! But it should be noted that Nintendo had footage of games at a higher resolution before like Xenoblade DE which I think was like ~900p or so in promotional footage of cutscenes.
The comment about volumetric clouds wasn’t right though as it seems like Nintendo is using a method called “billboarding” since volumetric would be rather expensive for the switch.
So I wouldn’t assume much from it.
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BlueKing
Octorok
Haven’t people spent the last two years saying “X looks too good, it must be running on new hardware”?
It’s hardly a revelation.
Sagitario
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Are there any more [official] Nintendo numbers (or even estimates) for Latin America?Switch active userbase keep expanding:
This is such a meme at this point.
Botw 2 being an exceptionally well optimized game, should be taken for granted. If it was the Drake version, there wouldn’t have been any doubt.
Dekuman
Kremling
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Yeah and the OG BOTW was a port of a Wii U game made to run on more limited hardware, for starters, even knowing BOTW on Wii U was pushing the Wii U's memory allocation to its limit and exceeded the 1GB allocated to games on that platform, its highlylikely BOTW only uses 1.5 GB and Switch has 3.2GB available to games on Switch. High resolution textures may push it closer to 2GB but I doubt it was a huge change.
As far as I know, there's not even a LATAM Nintendo
. We are just part of the "Americas" number. I believe jvlat is the official distributor here in Latin America and they say nothing about numbers or anything at all.
OP
OP
Considering many of Qualcomm's entry-level to mid-range Snapdragon SoCs are fabricated using Samsung's 8LPP process (e.g. Snapdragon 480/Snapdragon 480+, Snapdragon 690, Snapdragon 720G, Snapdragon 730/Snapdragon 730G/Snapdragon 732G, Snapdragon 750G, Snapdragon 7c, Snapdragon 7c Gen 2), Samsung's 8LPP process node seems more than good enough.
I don't think the same can be said about Samsung's 7LPP process node since Qualcomm only used Samsung's 7LPP process node to fabricate the Snapdragon 765/Snapdragon 765G/Snapdragon 768G. And Nvidia was apparently supposed to use Samsung's 7LPP process node for the fabrication of consumer Ampere GPUs originally according to the Korea Herald.
Samsung's 5LPE process node seems pretty decent to the point where Qualcomm used Samsung's 5LPE process node to fabricate the Snapdragon 888/Snapdragon 888+ for the entire duration of the Snapdragon 888's/Snapdragon 888+'s lifecycle. And Qualcomm's apparently using Samsung's 5LPE process node for the fabrication of the Snapdragon 8cx Gen 3. Although Qualcomm also used Samsung's 5LPE process node for the fabrication of the Snapdragon 780G, which had respectable performance and power efficiency, the Snapdragon 780G was apparently cancelled not too long after due to insufficient capacity, which seems to corroborate the yield rates being below 50% according to Business Korea to a degree.
And the same can't be said about Samsung's 4LPX process node or Samsung's 4LPE process node since the Snapdragon 8 Gen 1 apparently has a yield rate of 35% and the Exynos 2200 apparently has a yield rate below 35% according to The Elec. And Qualcomm's rumoured to switch from Samsung to TSMC for at least 2H 2022 and 2023.
Redesigning the SoC with TSMC's IP and EUV lithography in mind probably also has to be taken into account as well. Considering Orin's probably fabricated using Samsung's 8N process node, and Drake's a custom variant of Orin, Orin's probably using Samsung's IP. And Samsung and TSMC started using EUV lithography instead of DUV lithography for Samsung's 7LPP process node and more advanced, and TSMC's N6 process node and more advanced, respectively.
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Kenka
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Thank you for giving more context to Samsung's foundry output. Has kopite reacted to the Drake leaks yet?
I have no insight into fabs economics but I assume that those switches must have happened in the past for big volumes, yes? If it is the case, do we have any report of how these translated in terms of R&D expensives for the fabless customer(s)? I know that the jump from DUV to EUV makes past comparisons moot but it would still give us a point of reference.
Regardless, I think that switching is worth it for a chip that will be equipping dozens of millions of machines at some point. Nvidia have made billions out of the Tegra X1 at this point and they will want to extract every penny out of Drake, their next golden hen. If the economics make sense, then they might be the ones pushing for the adoption of a newer node.
There are a lot of 'ifs' but the scenario is worth being mentioned.
edit: I was too optimistic to presume that the Tegra X1 is a golden hen since The Motley Fool estimated in 2018 that the Tegra was probably less profitable than Nvidia's line of gaming GPUs. Still, I think Nvidia will make it an objective to increase the margins it will make out of Drake. I hope this translates into them and Nintendo going for the cutting edge in terms of node.
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manfromthedam
Semi Undercover Game Music Guy
Disclaimer: I really enjoy DF coverage both because of their technical chops and the personal chemistry they've got going on.
However I'm puzzled by their comments on Zelda 2. It also wasn't the first time they commented on Nintendo stuff without really committing to it resulting in weirdness.
They were really enthusiastic, it seemed, despite 99% of this footage being 9 months old and it all being quick cut teaser footage. Either they forgot the E3 2021 teaser, they really really liked those 3 extra seconds of Master Sword: Gnarled Up Edition footage, they wanted to join the news cycle, or (and this is an assumption - and probably a foolish one - that I've had for a while, especially considering Rich's standing in the world of game journalism) they know more than they're letting on, and this is a cheeky way to talk about that.
So, questions.
? This can't be on Switch because of cloud volumetrics. Didn't @brainchild have the suspicion on Ye Olde Place that these clouds were likely billboarded?
? This can't be on Switch because of perfect AA on camera cuts. But this is trailer footage, so likely pre-rendered like many BotW cutscenes - and DF knows and mentions this, so why the effort? They even got Tom to pixel count essentially old trailer footage.
Although I like seeing DF being enthusiastic about Zelda, there wasn't really that much to be excited about. Just a big question mark from me
.Disclaimer: I really enjoy DF coverage both because of their technical chops and the personal chemistry they've got going on.
However I'm puzzled by their comments on Zelda 2. It also wasn't the first time they commented on Nintendo stuff without really committing to it resulting in weirdness.
They were really enthusiastic, it seemed, despite 99% of this footage being 9 months old and it all being quick cut teaser footage. Either they forgot the E3 2021 teaser, they really really liked those 3 extra seconds of Master Sword: Gnarled Up Edition footage, they wanted to join the news cycle, or (and this is an assumption - and probably a foolish one - that I've had for a while, especially considering Rich's standing in the world of game journalism) they know more than they're letting on, and this is a cheeky way to talk about that.
So, questions.
? This can't be on Switch because of cloud volumetrics. Didn't @brainchild have the suspicion on Ye Olde Place that these clouds were likely billboarded?
? This can't be on Switch because of perfect AA on camera cuts. But this is trailer footage, so likely pre-rendered like many BotW cutscenes - and DF knows and mentions this, so why the effort? They even got Tom to pixel count essentially old trailer footage.
Although I like seeing DF being enthusiastic about Zelda, there wasn't really that much to be excited about. Just a big question mark from me
? This can't be on Switch because of cloud volumetrics. Didn't @brainchild have the suspicion on Ye Olde Place that these clouds were likely billboarded?
Yep, he did. Its not volumetrics, its just really really well done billboarding.
? This can't be on Switch because of perfect AA on camera cuts. But this is trailer footage, so likely pre-rendered like many BotW cutscenes - and DF knows and mentions this, so why the effort? They even got Tom to pixel count essentially old trailer footage.
Yep.
Foltzie
Uncle Muji
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I suspect your assumption is correct. Even if BOTW2 is a Switch2 launch title I also assume it will run on both Switch’s.
I also expect that Nintendo would render trailers off the current Switch build until the next Switch is/if announced.
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