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StarTopic Future Nintendo Hardware & Technology Speculation & Discussion |ST| (Read the staff posts before commenting!)

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Serif said:
I don't expect the Matrix demo to have a similar level of downgrade to DOOM Eternal or Witcher 3 on Switch, otherwise impressions would have noted it. It probably looked good enough at a large viewing distance for developers to consider it comparable. At such a viewing distance you could still see Witcher 3, DOOM, Apex, etc. have significant cutbacks. I think this bodes well.
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Yeah, IMHO assuming Thraktor is right about the node/clock, T239 when optimized for would be around 5-5.5TFLOPs Mixed precision and with room for DLSS on the Tensor Cores still.

Add in how much better NVRT is versus AMDRT (and how UE has advanced since UE5.0 which is what the OG Matrix Demos were built on), and I do think the Demo could feasibly be Series S graphical settings/internal resolution with better RT Settings/RTXDI added.etc but upscaled to a higher resolution via DLSS. Ergo better-quality resolve to the standard eye viewing distance, therefore comparable to PS5 rather than Series S on first mention.


ShadowFox08 said:
Oh man.. if DLSS was used to upscale 4k, that's disappointing. I would think 4x the bandwidth would be enough (I know, switch is 900p). Maybe this could sort of confirm it's no more than 102 GB/as.

But if it's an emulation, then maybe that's understandable too.
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Eh, DLSS in use is likely just to help smooth over dips/test them implimenting it in a game that didn't have any AA much less TAA Pipeline.

The Demo was allegedly to show off loading, DLSS @ 60fps was a bonus.

So it could just be a Dynamic 4K Output with DLAA, switching to DLSS when DRS would make it dip below 60.
 
ShadowFox08 said:
Oh man.. if DLSS was used to upscale 4k, that's disappointing. I would think 4x the bandwidth would be enough (I know, switch is 900p). Maybe this could sort of confirm it's no more than 102 GB/as.

But if it's an emulation, then maybe that's understandable too.
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Serif said:
It's just a demo, maybe DLSS integration with NVN / last-gen games was part of the demo alongside loading times. Maybe rendering natively had a noticeable impact on the instant loading and DLSS reduced the load (not sure about this one).
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Zelda is 900p, with an unstable frame rate. That 1.4 million pixels. 4k is 8.3 million pixels. Double it for 60fps, and add a little on top to smooth out the frame rate, plus the cost of any AA, and that's 12x minimum performance improvement over the Switch. That's just not viable.

But we don't know the DLSS settings used - a 1440p 60fps render and DLSS quality mode actually sits nicely inside the 6x leap expected, and would look fantastic.

All that said - I can't get up in arms about the resolution of a private tech demo (apparently) designed to showcase loading times. Nintendo isn't optimizing a tech demo, and Breath of the Wild is a hardware pushing game. Tech demos represent a weird mix of "bare minimum" and "draw dropping but optimized and controlled within an inch of it's life."

I wouldn't over analysis the performance implications here - I honestly believe that the best speculation here will give you better insight into the system's performance. What these leaks say to me is that Nintendo is building the system it looked like they were building - namely a continuity product, designed for longevity.
 
ShadowFox08 said:
Because modded switches are able to reach 60fps on Botw and TOTK with higher clockspeeds.. Likely at 720p, because it's only been tested on handheld mode as far as I'm aware actually. But I don't know if the internal resolution would still be close to 900p. Not sure how much of a factor CPU plays in framerate vs GPU in reaching 60fps. 🤔

I guess I was a bit ahead of myself and expecting too much. if I'm being conservative and revaluating, then 9x the pixels required if we start from 720p. I guess that's air enough on the GPU side then, though I forgot how much more efficient Ampere is in architecture vs Maxwell per flop 🤔. Perhaps 60fps to start with and DLSS makes up for the resolution or a combination. Obviously we don't know know the GPU clocks for T239, but I was thinking 3 tflops as a fair expectation.
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I've only seen it done in handheld mode, with the clock speeds cranked to ~2-3x the base undocked clock speed. With the resolution staying at 720p, it makes sense that would be enough for 60fps.
 
Just imagining a machine with 1.41TF/2.82TF, 12GB, RT (with A.I. reconstruction), DLSS pushing 4 or even 9 times more pixels), fast loads, at least 7 times more CPU power VS current Switch... all this in the hands of Nintendo devs.
I will just melt watching the first trailers for the next 3D Mario, Mario Kart, Luigi's Mansion, Retro Studios' next project, etc.


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oldpuck said:
Zelda is 900p, with an unstable frame rate. That 1.4 million pixels. 4k is 8.3 million pixels. Double it for 60fps, and add a little on top to smooth out the frame rate, plus the cost of any AA, and that's 12x minimum performance improvement over the Switch. That's just not viable.
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Fair but his initial comment was addressing 'upscaling to 4K' and didn't mention framerate (I also temporarily forgot the demo was 60 FPS). I assumed there would be enough to get native 4K 30. Yes, it makes sense to use DLSS to reliably get a stable 4K 60 instead of an unreliable aliased 4K almost 60.
 
A question.
With the rumoured specs of the next switch plus dlss etc. could we see improvements on the input delay in comparison to the switch? Or it's not something dependent on the console specs?
 
Serif said:
Fair but his initial comment was addressing 'upscaling to 4K' and didn't mention framerate (I also temporarily forgot the demo was 60 FPS). I assumed there would be enough to get native 4K 30. Yes, it makes sense to use DLSS to reliably get a stable 4K 60 instead of an unreliable aliased 4K almost 60.
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I think you're right, 1440p60 (then DLSS'd up) and 4k30, native are in the same ballpark GPU wise.
 
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Kartina said:
A question.
With the rumoured specs of the next switch plus dlss etc. could we see improvements on the input delay in comparison to the switch? Or it's not something dependent on the console specs?
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not really dependent on specs. there's probably a bottleneck in the pipeline, but it's not something that should be brute forced to fixed

Foltzie said:
I think I've read in this thread speculation that Ultra Performance has been built with Switch 2 in mind.
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it was made to squeeze 8K marketing at teh time, so I doubt it
 
There seem to still be a lot of comments about the DLSS version. I would say the main takeaway is that it's completely expected for Nintendo to be using the latest version Nvidia has made available to them, and if you want to think of that as 3.5, that's fine. From that, all we know for sure is that they have the latest version of the DLSS upscaler ready to go.

Whether Nintendo can, or is, using the other features under the "DLSS" banner -- frame generation and ray reconstruction -- doesn't have anything to do with the version number at this point. It's entirely to do with what Nintendo asked Nvidia to deliver in NVN2.

I and others think that frame generation is not likely to be offered as a feature. Ray reconstruction could be, since unlike frame gen it's definitely supported by Nintendo's hardware, but we don't know how long Nintendo has had access to it and if they've chosen to prioritize it as a launch feature of NVN2. If they haven't, it could be added in a later version, but either way, we have no evidence whether it was part of the tech demos (and whether the SDK version was 3.0, 3.5, or an in-dev 3.6 doesn't have any bearing on that).
 
Skittzo said:
Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I think frame generation is primarily (or solely) a tool used to help boost framerates (like get a 30fps game up to 60fps). Given we were not told what the framerate of the Matrix demo was I don't really see how there was really any reason to suspect they were using frame generation.
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More or less, but I want to type more about this.
So, my interpretation of Frame Generation as a concept is the question:
What if you have a significant amount of excessive GPU capability?

That is, let's say for a given game and settings, you are 'CPU-bound'. CPU side is able to prepare X amount of frames per second. Let's also assume that your GPU can easily generate X frames; plenty of juice leftover.
So why not.... Do Something with the leftover capability? Thus enters the idea of using 2 existing 'real' frames A & B to produce a new third frame C, without the involvement of the CPU.
Of course, this is strictly visual. The CPU is necessary for updating game logic and handling player input, so if you're doing frame generating to do X->Y fps, logic and responsiveness is still operating at X fps.
And aside from that, you also want your frames A & B to be closer to each other to help produce a more accurate frame C.
(and thus two different reasons why both vendors recommend a minimum of so and so for X before turning on frame generaiton)
 
Honestly, Nintendo using hall effect would be a net benefit for the rest of the industry because sony and microsoft would be forced to follow suit. That would make them standard and we'd look back at this potentiometer era in disgust forever.
 
LiC said:
There seem to still be a lot of comments about the DLSS version. I would say the main takeaway is that it's completely expected for Nintendo to be using the latest version Nvidia has made available to them, and if you want to think of that as 3.5, that's fine. From that, all we know for sure is that they have the latest version of the DLSS upscaler ready to go.

Whether Nintendo can, or is, using the other features under the "DLSS" banner -- frame generation and ray reconstruction -- doesn't have anything to do with the version number at this point. It's entirely to do with what Nintendo asked Nvidia to deliver in NVN2.

I and others think that frame generation is not likely to be offered as a feature. Ray reconstruction could be, since unlike frame gen it's definitely supported by Nintendo's hardware, but we don't know how long Nintendo has had access to it and if they've chosen to prioritize it as a launch feature of NVN2. If they haven't, it could be added in a later version, but either way, we have no evidence whether it was part of the tech demos (and whether the SDK version was 3.0, 3.5, or an in-dev 3.6 doesn't have any bearing on that).
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Yeah I think the discussion about the consumer facing "version" is a bit silly. They're working directly with Nvidia for this, and presumably Nvidia has made this project a top priority since it will be an extremely effective trojan horse for getting support for their technologies.

So Nvidia will be offering Nintendo the newest features and updates possible for use on the system, regardless of how they position it to the consumer. If ray reconstruction is possible on the hardware and offers any benefits you can bet it will be used, at least at some point. And whatever new features they add in over time.
 
oldpuck said:
Nintendo isn't optimizing a tech demo, and Breath of the Wild is a hardware pushing game. Tech demos represent a weird mix of "bare minimum" and "draw dropping but optimized and controlled within an inch of it's life."
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Given the history of the “Switch games in 4K” reporting, I’d be willing to bet that Breath of the Wild has been handled and adapted quite a bit. I actually assumed it would be fairly optimized as the guinea pig for DLSS and work with Nvidia. Maybe not sufficient for release, but definitely work put in.

Regardless, I agree we can’t assume anything about internal resolution, and frankly 40K/60fps and fast load times is already my dream scenario for that title. I can’t fathom how anybody could be less than optimistic about what we’re hearing.
 
glossonema said:
will the switch 2 have its own little satisfying click noise? I need my little serotonin hit with every trailer/presentation
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I'd expect an evolution of the existing one. I mean in real life, the device used to make the click often clicks more than once. They could have it so:

Joy-Con slams down to form the logo, click one plays, the whole logo bounces down, then back up, the 2 rising up beside it as it does so, then a second, softer click when the logo settles into place.
 
Concernt said:
I'd expect an evolution of the existing one. I mean in real life, the device used to make the click often clicks more than once. They could have it so:

Joy-Con slams down to form the logo, click one plays, the whole logo bounces down, then back up, the 2 rising up beside it as it does so, then a second, softer click when the logo settles into place.
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How about a big, deep, echoey click.
 
dingbat said:
Between frame generation and DLSS upscaling, is input latency gonna be an issue?
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I mean if it's using both DLSS (which reduces latency) and Reflex, then I could see that it would be possible for games to run at 35fps to 45fps and then use DLSS FG to lock it to 60. The original framerate doesn't have to be 30.
 
Slash said:
Nate has been told there has been a lot of talk regarding MARCH 2024 for Switch 2. Could be a full reveal window, or a release date.
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Im listening to this on the way to work and as soon as he said that, i bloody yelled " YEAH BOI"

then his co host is like, wait what? lmfao loved it
 
A question about CFexpress type a.
If Nintendo were to use this memory card, could this lead to the same situation as the PSP Memory Stick, or will it be different?
 
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Dude_lookinatleak said:
I mean if it's using both DLSS (which reduces latency) and Reflex, then I could see that it would be possible for games to run at 35fps to 45fps and then use DLSS FG to lock it to 60. The original framerate doesn't have to be 30.
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Reflex is largely a PC-oriented solution. part of console optimizations would be keeping your gpu and cpu in sync anyway
 
Serif said:
The second mistake is actually trying to participate in that discussion. (Someone save me.)

Anyways I'm curious about what the internal resolution for that Matrix demo must be, as I assume it would be an Ultra Performance DLSS showcase.
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Very likely yes, Ultra Performance mode DLSS looks much better than FSR 2.x in motion and it also keeps looking better with updates, so I can see the detail being squeezed out with DLSS making developers go "Wow! Keanu Reeves is real!"
 
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Scrawnton said:
I'm worried people are overhyping themselves in regards to just how graphically capable this new system will be. I think things need to be dialed way back...
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Nah

I mean what exactly do you think expectations are? We're told it can run the Matrix demo looking comparable to current gen, with identical or better ray tracing. Assuming this is true or close to true, what do you think expectations should be?
 
Giancarlo said:
Matrix demo with Ray-Tracing equal or better then current gen consoles? this seen too farfect to be true, Nintendo doing a powerful console, i have doubt, Nintendo has stopped doing powerful console(GC was the last), no way a console such as this exist, without a horrible battery and a prohibitive price
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Definitely possible, Nvidia has faster RT as well as DLSS 3.5 upscaling the rays. So it definitely could look better.
 
Scrawnton said:
I'm worried people are overhyping themselves in regards to just how graphically capable this new system will be. I think things need to be dialed way back...
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I mean it all comes down to DLSS implementation. If the new system really can use DLSS the way they've talked about it the games will really look awesome. And it will be a fact that Nintendo has not been as graphically close to PS/Xbox since the gamecube era with the Switch 2, even if by no means will match those systems in a lot of the specs departments. So keep expectations very high but also be realistic, no it is not a Ps5/series X console. Not even a series S console even if it is comparable in a some areas with a series S level console. But DLSS will be better on Switch 2 and that somewhat levels the playing field though of course not competely.
 
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Concernt said:
I'd expect an evolution of the existing one. I mean in real life, the device used to make the click often clicks more than once. They could have it so:

Joy-Con slams down to form the logo, click one plays, the whole logo bounces down, then back up, the 2 rising up beside it as it does so, then a second, softer click when the logo settles into place.
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Or both sides could click instead of just the right lol
 
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Skittzo said:
Nah

I mean what exactly do you think expectations are? We're told it can run the Matrix demo looking comparable to current gen, with identical or better ray tracing. Assuming this is true or close to true, what do you think expectations should be?
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I see people starting to throw around 4k 60 and even some 120fps comments. I've just seen this song and dance plenty of times before a Nintendo system is revealed and eventually things come crashing down when it's all revealed.
 
If expectations are high, it's Nintendo's fault. No one forced them to show the Matrix demo to developers (half serious here). Most of us expected a demo of BotW at higher res. It's perfectly valid to expect a high-powered mobile device with a modern featureset and tricks up its sleeve to have comparable visual parity with current-gen consoles. Sometimes good news is just good news. Even the levelheaded folks over at DF, who caution about the specifics of the demos, acknowledge that it's exciting that these were what they chose to show.

Scrawnton said:
I see people starting to throw around 4k 60 and even some 120fps comments.
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Because we literally have impressions of the system running BotW at 4K/60.
 
Scrawnton said:
I'm worried people are overhyping themselves in regards to just how graphically capable this new system will be. I think things need to be dialed way back...
Click to expand...

People are expecting an improved PS4 with DLSS. Dial that way back and you might as well get a Switch.
 
Scrawnton said:
I see people starting to throw around 4k 60 and even some 120fps comments. I've just seen this song and dance plenty of times before a Nintendo system is revealed and eventually things come crashing down when it's all revealed.
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This situation it's certain to be different as it's the first time in decades Nintendo have effectively made a sequel (non-exclusively handheld) console, the impression many of us are getting here is they've settled on the Switch in the same way Sony have settled on PlayStation and Microsoft have settled on Xbox, so going forward it will be an iterative hardware series rather than the rollercoaster ride of cartridges to discs to cards to discs to cards, and power to feature-first to feature-first to feature-first etc.

From everything known about the NG, it sure does seem Nintendo are recognising the importance of prioritising capability above all else, and later building the features around that
 
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Scrawnton said:
Nintendo has shown off plenty of tech demos in the past that never ended up reflecting what the system could actually do. I'm just going to continue with the cautious approach. You can do you, though.
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These are tech demos to developers intended to communicate the capabilities and featureset of the system, the public wasn't even meant to see them. The BotW demo showcased fast loading. The Matrix demo showcased UE5 compatibility and features. Nintendo will not risk misrepresenting their system to the very people who are supposed to be developing games for it. The demos absolutely represent a ballpark of what to expect.

Also, we've known leaked potential specs for over a year. These have grounded a lot of our expectations. All of our estimates about 4K 60 and such take this into consideration. We literally just had a discussion on this page on why native 4K 60 for BotW is a tall order and DLSS is needed to guarantee a smooth experience. PS4+ with DLSS is what most of us believe. How cautious would you like us to be?
 
Scrawnton said:
I see people starting to throw around 4k 60 and even some 120fps comments. I've just seen this song and dance plenty of times before a Nintendo system is revealed and eventually things come crashing down when it's all revealed.
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I mean, you'd have to clarify what you find wrong with those comments because if they are touting those numbers like they will be the norm then they're wrong. 4k60fps will certainly be a possibility for some games. BoTW for example is cited as a game that can run at 4k60fps on the console.

I am willing to bet the next Smash runs at that fidelity with DLSS.

Smash Ultimate is already 1080p 60fps and that is a rarity on Switch. I do think some games will be capable of running at 120fps like Hi-Rez's Smite which runs at a smooth 60fps on Switch. It probably won't be the norm but it's something the Switch wouldn't have been capable of.

I do not remember a pre-announcement speculation cycle remotely similar to Switch 2's where we had the specs for over a year now due to a big hack/leak. Plus we have many more credible sources than in the past. I really don't see how they're comparable.

I am willing to be Mario Odyssey could easily run at 120fps on Switch 2 but I think that's overkill for a console platformer. Depending on how many more polygons they decide to push for the next 3D Mario, I don't think 4K 60fps is outside the realm of possibility when docked.
 
whether the system sounds more or less impressive than we previously thought.

given the leaks and what we know about T239 i'd say it sounds exactly like what we expected. also Nintendo prioritize 60fps so i don't believe there would be a focus on 4k output unless 60fps was going be well achievable (for first party titles at least).
 
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Scrawnton said:
Nintendo has shown off plenty of tech demos in the past that never ended up reflecting what the system could actually do. I'm just going to continue with the cautious approach. You can do you, though.
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Sure if you are counting demos shown to the press where there is some benefit to maybe juicing them up - there is very little point showing behind closed doors demos to potential dev partners and going overboard with what the system can actually do in a way that misleads them. That would just be stupid
 
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