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StarTopic Future Nintendo Hardware & Technology Speculation & Discussion |ST| (Read the staff posts before commenting!)

Your missing what I am saying, poor yields means a higher cost per functioning SOC's, the failed units cost will be added to the cost of the functional chips. So maybe it takes three wafers from Samsung to get a certain amount of chips compared to only two wafers from TSMC, but if Samsungs deal still results in significantly cheaper price to get X amount of chips, because the wafers and manufacturing cost are so much cheaper, then that's what they will do.
Therein lies the problem, you need more than 3 to match 2 of TSMC :p

Probably 4-5.

Let’s assume you get 90-95% yield from a wafer at TSMC, you’d get like 40-60% at SEC.

More expensive? Yes, but if you are just spending the same amount and it results in worse performance in SEc than TSMC for what would be shorter lived, you’re spending more in the long run.

Those defective chips have to go somewhere of course, the less you have going out the better too.
 
Given the number of LRG releases and now a(/at least one) major game releas from Nintendo using 32GB cards, I think we could well see it be the dominant format of the next generation. Especially since there is likely to be a continued elevated price at 70$. 64GB cards are probably very possible at this point, too. Given that most next gen games only come on 50GB disks, I don't think there'll be much problem with physical storage capacity on the next system, and they have the advantage of running straight from the Game Card. Internal and expanded storage remains a bit of a mystery, but my expectation would be 128GB of eMMC and MicroSD card. If games have to run off Game Card, MicroSD card won't be much of a hurdle.
i hadn't been paying attention to LRG, but which games coming out from them are on 32 GB?
 
Data is data. If it can be compressed to that with no difference, so would the download version. If there was some actual difference (lossy compression somewhere), they'd have to maintain two versions going forward.
That's what they did for Breath of the Wild on Wii U.

Personally my expectation is currently a 16GB Game Card with a totally playable version of the game with a chunky Day 1 Patch. Digital Versions on the eShop have this patch factored into their size already.

I HOPE they go with a 32GB Game Card, personally, but I don't think it's a guarantee. Nintendo isn't a stranger to multiple SKUs of the same product, like Splatoon 2's regional variants, any Pokémon game, Ring Fit Adventure's digital vs. physical version, etc.
 
I’m gonna be honest with you, my good friend, but we need to know how much the current farts cost at varying sizes, extrapolate from other flash storage and normal trends and try to apply a similar method using the power of assumption and also weigh the cost of the technology at a mass scale in order to do that.


Otherwise there’s no answer to this. From us anyway.
The current... farts?
 
Alright, Intel stated during an earnings report about 1 year ago that Meteor Lake was powered on for testing. And in today's earnings report, Intel re-iterated that Meteor Lake is ramping up for launch in the second half of the year.
(not that it excludes the scenario of a paper launch :p)
Can Nintendo get Drake from sample to out the door in a shorter-or-equal timeframe as Intel with Meteor Lake? :unsure:
(on the one hand, a game system launch is further complicated by the need for accompanying software, on the other hand, Intel is wrestling with their first major attempt at packaging chiplets)
Intel? Switch 2 on Lunar Lake then? 🤣

Sorry, have no idea about your question, just didn’t want to miss the joke
 
The judicial hell Nintendo would raise if Microsoft dared leak their successor console. This is even assuming Microsoft knows what it is. For all we know, maybe the redacted is a new type of subscription model
I don’t think a sub model makes sense in the context of this, REDACTED came from the same one and it was referred as being a sub model and that didn’t quite fit either.
 
The judicial hell Nintendo would raise if Microsoft dared leak their successor console. This is even assuming Microsoft knows what it is. For all we know, maybe the redacted is a new type of subscription model
I mean yeah but they'd go down as absolute legends 🤣
 
I don't think MS will 'leak' this. Lawyers were involved and likely have anticipated the possibility Nintendo would be required to reveal it's next hardware to prove the CoD deal was made in good faith and not to bamboozle regulators, and Nintendo may simply announce Switch 2 exists in a press release.
 
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i hadn't been paying attention to LRG, but which games coming out from them are on 32 GB?
Doom Eternal ($60, expected to ship in Q2 2023), Knights of the Old Republic 2 ($35, reaching customers since a few weeks), and the just announced Alien: Isolation ($40, Q1 2024).
 
Are any of those upcoming games on LTD confirmed to be using 32 GB carts? It is it just speculation...?
With Totk, I can see it go either way now.
If they really went with the 16GB cart route, they'd put up to 14GB on the cert and +4 GB as a separate download. We"ll see on release day. Though opening up the cart would confirm it.

But, opting to go with a 32 GB cart only benefits Nintendo and everyone else in the among run. Mas producing 32 GB carts will bring down the price of the carts. While 16GB would just help them in the short run and feels sbirt sided.
 
The judicial hell Nintendo would raise if Microsoft dared leak their successor console. This is even assuming Microsoft knows what it is. For all we know, maybe the redacted is a new type of subscription model
Not necessarily leak, but maybe for MS to prove their point they'll have to reveal some specific info, which they obviously would have to tell Nintendo about, or ask them for, which might then lead to force Nintendo's hand sooner.

🤷‍♂️
 
Not necessarily leak, but maybe for MS to prove their point they'll have to reveal some specific info, which they obviously would have to tell Nintendo about, or ask them for, which might then lead to force Nintendo's hand sooner.

🤷‍♂️
At the earliest, it will be right around the earnings release, everyone in Japan will be off next week for Golden Week.
 
Are any of those upcoming games on LTD confirmed to be using 32 GB carts? It is it just speculation...?
With Totk, I can see it go either way now.
If they really went with the 16GB cart route, they'd put up to 14GB on the cert and +4 GB as a separate download. We"ll see on release day. Though opening up the cart would confirm it.

But, opting to go with a 32 GB cart only benefits Nintendo and everyone else in the among run. Mas producing 32 GB carts will bring down the price of the carts. While 16GB would just help them in the short run and feels sbirt sided.
The Switch has been out for 6 years ish, and Nintendo has yet to release a game on a 32 gb card. I don't know how much water your second point holds.
 
Are any of those upcoming games on LTD confirmed to be using 32 GB carts? It is it just speculation...?
With Totk, I can see it go either way now.
If they really went with the 16GB cart route, they'd put up to 14GB on the cert and +4 GB as a separate download. We"ll see on release day. Though opening up the cart would confirm it.

But, opting to go with a 32 GB cart only benefits Nintendo and everyone else in the among run. Mas producing 32 GB carts will bring down the price of the carts. While 16GB would just help them in the short run and feels sbirt sided.
No speculation for those three.

For Doom Eternal and Alien: Isolation, you have the word from LRG's CEO.

And for Knights Of The Old Republic 2, while there's no specific info or confirmation coming from LRG or Aspyr, you can say that it's empiric observation. The effective space in a 16 GB cart is ~14.7 GB, but the game weights 15.9 GB. People that has already received the game has confirmed that it includes a patch to download (146 MB), but that patch size is not big enough to be considered what wasn't fitting in the cart.
 
That's what they did for Breath of the Wild on Wii U.

Personally my expectation is currently a 16GB Game Card with a totally playable version of the game with a chunky Day 1 Patch. Digital Versions on the eShop have this patch factored into their size already.

I HOPE they go with a 32GB Game Card, personally, but I don't think it's a guarantee. Nintendo isn't a stranger to multiple SKUs of the same product, like Splatoon 2's regional variants, any Pokémon game, Ring Fit Adventure's digital vs. physical version, etc.
zelda BotW on WiiU doesn't do that.

What it does is duplicate and install certain data on the hard disk to improve reading speed, just like it happened with Xenoblade X, since the disks used by WiiU their reading speed was not fast enough. But the version is the same as the digital one.
 
The Switch has been out for 6 years ish, and Nintendo has yet to release a game on a 32 gb card. I don't know how much water your second point holds.
Games are only gonna get much larger with Switch 2. By starting with botw 2, which will sell millions of copies, I think it will help drive the price down

Carts aren't going to reduce much in price by themselves if hardly anyone is making them, due to lack of demand. half dozen known games that only a few hundred thousand copies in circulation at most isn't going to help a lot.

This could be why Nintendo is charging $70 in the U.S. as well. To make up for a loss. We'll know next month if Totk is using a 32 GB cart.
 
Games are only gonna get much larger with Switch 2. By starting with botw 2, which will sell millions of copies, I think it will help drive the price down

Carts aren't going to reduce much in price by themselves if hardly anyone is making them, due to lack of demand. half dozen known games that only a few hundred thousand copies in circulation at most isn't going to help a lot.

This could be why Nintendo is charging $70 in the U.S. as well. To make up for a loss. We'll know next month if Totk is using a 32 GB cart.
Personally I think the reason they're charging 70 is because they know they will get away with it. It won't lose them a lot of sales.
 
Not necessarily leak, but maybe for MS to prove their point they'll have to reveal some specific info, which they obviously would have to tell Nintendo about, or ask them for, which might then lead to force Nintendo's hand sooner.

🤷‍♂️
If anything, they could say that the next Switch is more powerful. But even that is risky
 
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I am pretty certain Drake will not be announced (I mean officially, I don't count the NERD job offer) until after Pikmin 4 launched.
State of the art mobile graphics would outshine it too much and it would be ultimately detrimental to its success.

So, keep you fingers crossed for the moment we learn about its launch date.
 
I think this is taken somewhat out of context (or simply poor wording on the part of the author of this section of the report). They're not saying that CoD couldn't be ported to Switch, they're just saying that Switch wouldn't be able to run a version which is comparable to the PS5/XBSX versions, which should hardly be a surprise. Here's another quote where they acknowledge games like Doom Eternal and Apex Legends:

As to why there's such a focus on CoD running on the current Switch, when MS's agreement seems to just refer to Nintendo hardware in general, it's because Microsoft claimed that the agreements they signed, such as the Nintendo one, will extend the market of CoD games to an additional 150 million players. Over 80% of this (120+ million) is from counting the Switch install base, so if Microsoft don't plan on releasing any CoD games for the current Switch, they can't realistically claim to be expanding the market by 150 million.

Anyway, I'm more interested in over-analysing all those juicy [redacted] parts of the report which probably aren't references to Nintendo's next hardware but are fun to speculate on. Here are a few fun ones:





Personally I think [✄], but maybe [✄]. Also, [✄]. [✄].

Edit: Bonus content. Here's a quote from Microsoft's response to the provisional findings. It's a bullet point in section 4.6 relating to the contract with Nintendo:

Lots of interesting things here, thanks for sharing! Like you said, most of these probably aren’t relevant - but this one is definitely of interest imho:

11.202 As noted above, Microsoft’s obligations under the Nintendo agreement with Nintendo only arise from [✄]. As such, Microsoft would not be obliged to start work on development of CoD titles for Nintendo platforms until [✄].
 
The judicial hell Nintendo would raise if Microsoft dared leak their successor console. This is even assuming Microsoft knows what it is. For all we know, maybe the redacted is a new type of subscription model
Here's a fun theory. If Nintendo reveals the Switch 2 in June or July or something, that'll actually be in time for whatever legislative hell the CMA are going to put MS through. If that's the case, then that'll mean they'll have to remove that funny comment about Nintendo systems being unable to run CoD.

However I very much doubt this. I am in the "2023 release" camp, but I'm not 100% convinced it'll happen as early as 2 months away.
 
Here's a fun theory. If Nintendo reveals the Switch 2 in June or July or something, that'll actually be in time for whatever legislative hell the CMA are going to put MS through. If that's the case, then that'll mean they'll have to remove that funny comment about Nintendo systems being unable to run CoD.

However I very much doubt this. I am in the "2023 release" camp, but I'm not 100% convinced it'll happen as early as 2 months away.

If ReDraketed is a 2023 holiday launch, they would want to have some 5-6 months between announcement and launch, so June/July kinda fits that timeline.

Unless they really try to have a reaaaaally short timeframe between announcement and release, i feel that if no announcement happens during those two months, we're looking at an early 2024 release (within current FY) and an announcement sometime around the end of November (when most people did their holiday shopping already).
 
Gamescom to showcase games being 2-4 months old? Something is going on behind the courtains (like always ofc). Even if REDACTED isnt coming in 2023, some big games are being cooked for this year (still odd when insiders are talking about an, lets say, "empty" 2H).

Edit: And the september event, but this one is relatively smaller.
 
State of the art mobile graphics would outshine it too much and it would be ultimately detrimental to its success.
We could make this argument for any AAA 1st Party title Nintendo were to release after Pikmin as well. “Drake will not be announced because state of the art mobile graphics would outshine X title too much”. There’s a high possibility recent, AAA Nintendo games will receive a next gen patch. A game like Pikmin would benefit, and I’m sure Miyamoto would be more than willing to push that. Assuming he yet hasn’t told the Switch 2 team, seeing as how he’s a Nintendo higher-up and is the series’ creator and producer.

Here's a fun theory. If Nintendo reveals the Switch 2 in June or July or something, that'll actually be in time for whatever legislative hell the CMA are going to put MS through. If that's the case, then that'll mean they'll have to remove that funny comment about Nintendo systems being unable to run CoD.

However I very much doubt this. I am in the "2023 release" camp, but I'm not 100% convinced it'll happen as early as 2 months away.
Microsoft appealed the CMA’s decision. We’ll have to see. If anything, they could get approved in the US, which seems to be a comfortable environment for the Microsoft-ABK acquisition.

they would want to have some 5-6 months between announcement and launch, so June/July kinda fits that timeline.
Technically, it HAS to be June. Holiday launches are usually before mid November. If we don’t June if a late reveal happens, that’s July, August, September, October and November. Five months.

Unless they really try to have a reaaaaally short timeframe between announcement and release,
It’s been almost seven years since the Switch’s reveal trailer dropped. A lot has changed since then. Nintendo has a solid Marketing strategy and social media is a part of many people’s daily activities. Moreso than seven years ago. I can see Nintendo going for a shorter timeframe, BUT, only a a single month less. I can see them promoting the successor with a four month timeframe between reveal and release. But no less than that.

i feel that if no announcement happens during those two months, we're looking at an early 2024 release (within current FY) and an announcement sometime around the end of November (when most people did their holiday shopping already).
I’m with you. If we don’t get anything in Summer, this is gonna be another March launch Switch.

Buuut… Holiday season is a bit tricky. You have Black Friday and Christmas shopping. If you’d unveil anything, maybe it’d be after those month’s. January. That would then put the successor releasing in April-June.

IF the Drake doesn’t get a Holiday release, it would be a March release then. With a reveal in September (as originally intended for the OG Switch) or October (like the OG Switch).

Gamescom to showcase games being 2-4 months old? Something is going on behind the courtains (like always ofc). Even if REDACTED isnt coming in 2023, some big games are being cooked for this year (still odd when insiders are talking about an, lets say, "empty" 2H).

Edit: And the september event, but this one is relatively smaller.
The only new software the event could get is maybe demo for the rumored FE remake, new Mario, Prime 4

But that’s the problem: whatever heavy hitter they could have for 2H is rumored. Nothing concrete
 
We could make this argument for any AAA 1st Party title Nintendo were to release after Pikmin as well. “Drake will not be announced because state of the art mobile graphics would outshine X title too much”. There’s a high possibility recent, AAA Nintendo games will receive a next gen patch. A game like Pikmin would benefit, and I’m sure Miyamoto would be more than willing to push that. Assuming he yet hasn’t told the Switch 2 team, seeing as how he’s a Nintendo higher-up and is the series’ creator and producer.


Microsoft appealed the CMA’s decision. We’ll have to see. If anything, they could get approved in the US, which seems to be a comfortable environment for the Microsoft-ABK acquisition.


Technically, it HAS to be June. Holiday launches are usually before mid November. If we don’t June if a late reveal happens, that’s July, August, September, October and November. Five months.


It’s been almost seven years since the Switch’s reveal trailer dropped. A lot has changed since then. Nintendo has a solid Marketing strategy and social media is a part of many people’s daily activities. Moreso than seven years ago. I can see Nintendo going for a shorter timeframe, BUT, only a a single month less. I can see them promoting the successor with a four month timeframe between reveal and release. But no less than that.


I’m with you. If we don’t get anything in Summer, this is gonna be another March launch Switch.

Buuut… Holiday season is a bit tricky. You have Black Friday and Christmas shopping. If you’d unveil anything, maybe it’d be after those month’s. January. That would then put the successor releasing in April-June.

IF the Drake doesn’t get a Holiday release, it would be a March release then. With a reveal in September (as originally intended for the OG Switch) or October (like the OG Switch).


The only new software the event could get is maybe demo for the rumored FE remake, new Mario, Prime 4

But that’s the problem: whatever heavy hitter they could have for 2H is rumored. Nothing concrete
I chose Pikmin as an example simply because it's furthest in time of all the titles announced so far. I just wanted to propose a earliest date possible for the Drake announcement.
 
A few financial reports have been published recently which are tangentially related to this thread.

Firstly, Samsung's quarterly report (presentation). Not a good quarter for Samsung, with the lowest operating profit since 2009 (with profit down 95% YoY), which was mainly driven by losses in the memory division (which includes RAM and flash memory). Memory revenue is down by 56% YoY, and they've recently said they'll cut production due to the drop in demand.

Next, SK Hynix (solely a RAM/flash memory producer) reported a 58% YoY drop in quarterly revenue. A few weeks ago Micron (also solely a RAM/flash memory producer) reported a 53% YoY drop in revenue in their quarterly report.

Samsung, SK Hynix and Micron account for almost the entire global RAM production, and a large chunk of the global flash production, so with each of them reporting over 50% YoY drops in memory revenue, I think it's safe to say that the chip shortage is well and truly over, for the memory sector at least, and we're now well into the era of oversupply.

The upshot of this is a significant drop in memory prices. On the RAM side, prices have reportedly dropped by around 20% in the first quarter of the year, and are expected to drop by 10-15% in Q2. This is roughly in line with SK Hynix's presentation, where they reported a "High Teen%" QoQ drop in ASP for their RAM business (although there's likely a change in product mix in there).

Flash prices are also dropping, although by slightly less, with prices reportedly dropping by 10-15% in Q1 and expected to drop by a further 5-10% in Q2. SK Hynix reported an "Around 10%" QoQ drop in ASP for their flash business (again likely including a change in product mix).

While prices aren't expected to drop to the same extent in the second half of the year, I'd expect them to stay low. Samsung quoted price elasticity as a driver for increased demand in their memory outlook for both Q2 and H2, which basically means that they're expecting to rely on the drop in prices to encourage customers to purchase more, or higher capacity, memory products.

Coming back to Nintendo, RAM, and to a lesser extent flash memory, are significant costs in the Switch, and will be again in their new hardware. Looking just at mobile RAM/LPDDR, it's reported to have dropped in price by 13-18% in Q1 and projected to drop by a further 10-15% in Q2, so LPDDR4/5 will likely cost about 26% less in July than it did 6 months previously. On the flash memory side, eMMC/UFS is reported to have dropped by 10-15% in Q1 with a further 8-13% in Q2, which comes to around a 22% drop in price over the first half of the year.

For current Switch hardware, this should mean Nintendo's margins will increase a bit over the course of the year. For their new hardware, it may give Nintendo the option to use slightly higher capacity RAM or flash memory than they otherwise would have. Memory interfaces are locked in relatively early as part of the SoC design, so moving to faster memory is unlikely to be an option, but changes to memory capacity can be made at a relatively late stage, as it's just a matter of switching to a higher capacity part before manufacturing begins.
 
But not RAM right? Since its tied to the memory bus
RAM capacity can change at a relatively late stage, but not the speed or type of RAM (as those are limited by the memory interface on the SoC). The interface of a memory chip does't change with capacity, so they could easily change, say a pair of 4GB LPDDR5 modules to a pair of 6GB LPDDR5 modules right up to the moment manufacturing starts, it's just a matter of swapping in the higher capacity parts. There have been quite a few instances where memory capacity has changed at a relatively late stage in a console's development; the PS4 went from 4GB to 8GB of RAM quite late on, and the Switch reportedly changed from 3GB to 4GB of RAM.
 
But not RAM right? Since its tied to the memory bus
The bus width only determines the max bandwidth for the RAM. So outside of the type of RAM (and the max I/O rate based on the type of RAM), which is determined before the SoC is taped out, the amount of RAM can be adjusted until the last possible moment.
 
Absolutely right, I was thinking about the 2Gb split that desktop graphics cards usually do (they cant just add more Gb ->4070)

Thanks for the insight guys
 
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For current Switch hardware, this should mean Nintendo's margins will increase a bit over the course of the year.
Guess we aren’t getting a price drop and the successor will likely sell at $399 or $449

no way Microsoft will risk facing the Nintendo ninjas, they are have a pretty good relationship, no way Microsoft will leak Switch sucessor just to apease market regulators
This would also shake up any other contractual relation Microsoft has with other companies. It’d be like a rippling effect
 
no, they will taste like chocolate
the whole point was to prevent people and animals from eating the carts, not encourage it!



on the topic of file sizes, I wonder how far AI texture upscaling can be pushed. on B3D, a user took a look at Naughty Dog's games through Nvidia Inspector and shown that a great many textures are actually 512x512 and 1024x1024, with some being 2048x2048. just how much can those 512 and 1024 textures be pushed to mimic a higher quality?


in addition, Sony Santa Monica has had a presentation on realtime upscaling that I haven't watched yet. don't even know if it went up

EDIT: the slides are up, going through them now
 
the whole point was to prevent people and animals from eating the carts, not encourage it!



on the topic of file sizes, I wonder how far AI texture upscaling can be pushed. on B3D, a user took a look at Naughty Dog's games through Nvidia Inspector and shown that a great many textures are actually 512x512 and 1024x1024, with some being 2048x2048. just how much can those 512 and 1024 textures be pushed to mimic a higher quality?


in addition, Sony Santa Monica has had a presentation on realtime upscaling that I haven't watched yet. don't even know if it went up

EDIT: the slides are up, going through them now

This seems extremely computationally expensive currently for something (file size) that isn't a serious concern for a lot of devs right now.

This only seems viable for God of War because it barely uses any of the PS5's power.

When you can run these algorithms with like 1% of the power of a console, then yeah, they'll probably be used, but that seems like a PS7 thing.
 

We are talking here about a 70 billion USD deal here. And MS knows that they would burn bridges with Nintendo if anything would be trackable back to MS as source of the leak. Nintendo likely would even cancel the COD deal. It would be much easier to convince them to reveal the REDACTED way too early and pay for any projected loss Nintendo has because of that. I am sure MS can cover the billions more.
 
Microsoft appealed the CMA’s decision. We’ll have to see. If anything, they could get approved in the US, which seems to be a comfortable environment for the Microsoft-ABK acquisition.
The FTC in the US is suing Microsoft to block the Activision Blizzard acquisition. If anything the FTC are probably celebrating the CMA's report. Anyway, from Microsoft's and Activision's highly political responses to the CMA report, you can guess they think their appeal will fail and are hoping the EU will give them a break next month (which I suspect will also disappoint them)
 
A few financial reports have been published recently which are tangentially related to this thread.

[snip]

To follow up on this, it's probably worth making it clear that this drop in memory demand and prices didn't start this year, and has been ongoing for around a year. We're just seeing the greatest impact on manufacturers' balance sheets in the first half of this year.

Back in September, it was reported that mobile RAM prices dropped by 10-15% in Q3 2022, and would drop by 13-18% in Q4. SK Hynix reported an "Around 20%" QoQ drop in DRAM ASP in Q3, but didn't comment on ASP at all in Q4.

If the reported price drops are accurate, then this implies that LPDDR prices will have dropped by around 45% in total from mid 2022 to mid 2023.

Guess we aren’t getting a price drop and the successor will likely sell at $399 or $449

Why would reduced component prices mean we wouldn't get a price drop or that the successor would be more expensive? In any case, I don't think this would have any impact on the pricing of either the Switch or any new hardware. Nintendo has been making healthy profits on Switch hardware for a long time now and Nintendo has told investors they have no intention of dropping the price. Meanwhile their new hardware will be built to a specific price, which as oldpuck pointed out has been very stable over time accounting for inflation. The question will be what components can they include to hit their target price, not what price they have to charge to include all the components they want.
 
Alright you Nintendo employees masquerading as ignorant forum users, tell me when this thing is releasing so I can decide on whether or not to keep my Zelda OLED order.
 
Please read this staff post before posting.

Furthermore, according to this follow-up post, all off-topic chat will be moderated.
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