That was a mistake, the Nvidia leak confirms no DLA.
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StarTopic Future Nintendo Hardware & Technology Speculation & Discussion |ST| (Read the staff posts before commenting!)
- Thread starter Dakhil
- Start date
My Tulpa
Bob-omb
Maybe. But by the time that next big revolutionary 3D Zelda game comes out, the next upgrade hardware AFTER this Drake hardware will be coming out.
I think the Switch ecosystem and Nintendo will feel perfectly fine with ToTk type gaming (in terms of grandness and scale and gameplay) for another 5 years or so at least. This new hardware will just make these game look and run fantastic as if they were released on modern hardware from this decade.
Onilink97
Octorok
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Absolutely sure about that? Could that bit just not have leaked? Where in the nvidia leak did it confirm no DLA? Never realised that was the case.
D36
#WOHOYHASAWAKENED
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I get that, but that's something that'll just happen on it's own. Enforcing the thread rules can help, but I just think it's getting excessive.
darthdiablo
+5 Death Stare
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That's not my understanding.
Oldpuck said it was a misstep of his, DLA is NOT eliminated.
Edit: Or does that mean DLA won't be included on Drake? I've been known to misinterpret
It's confirmed, but hope is not lost.
Nvidias own documentation on DLSs seems to paint a very different picture of runtime speed, compared to Riches test. It's possible he ran into some kind of significant bottleneck.
My Tulpa
Bob-omb
As long as the output looks like it’s a 4k render, who cares what a DLSS device is actually rendering it at?
Onilink97
Octorok
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Fair enough. I wasn't losing hope, was just curious as to how and when it was deconfirmed.
Well those are indicative specs as well, hard to judge without CPU, customisations, total ram etc. I imagine there will be some aspects that were better than what Rich came up with while others might not be as good.
OP
OP
Not necessarily from the Nvidia leaks, but when comparing T234's drivers register file to T239's drivers register file on GitHub, Nvidia's Deep Learning Accelerators (NVDLA) is nowhere to be found on T239 unlike T234.
Apenknul
CJ for Smash
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Sorry to bother, as all these terms you're all saying is something above my comprehension. I do believe I see many people being disappointed, but also people being relieved? Yeah, technical shizzle isn't my strengh. So, to summarize is a bit, with some simple explanation, is the situation a yay or a nay?
darthdiablo
+5 Death Stare
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If you haven't watched the DF video, go ahead and do it now. Don't worry about tech stuff if you're not sure what they mean, you should still get some ideas from looking at visuals alone.
Keep in mind that is the floor of what Switch 2 can do (meaning it's most likely going to be better than what you see in DF video).
If anyone were disappointed, it's probably because they set themselves up with unrealistic expectations. Switch 2 because of its docked/handheld form factor, isn't meant to be competitive with PS5 and XSX's raw power.
Ghostsonplanets
Ghost in the Sales
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Yes. LiC checked it and the DLA mentions were removed.
You misunderstood him. "I couldn't locate the DLA stuff (Differences between T239 and T234 to see if DLA was removed from T239), and told Rich that (The DLA) it wasn't eliminated (from T239)".
However LiC showed that the DLA were indeed removed from T239.
I suggest that you watch both DF videos. The one in the main channel and one in the DF Clips. But if you want a TLDR, without delving into tech, Switch 2 will be a proper generational leap and will be able to run current-gen (PS5/XSeries) games with much ease and less effort from developers compared to all the cuts devs had to do with Switch downports. This level of jump in performance is basically as if Nintendo went from Wii to Wii U and Nintendo games on the new hardware will look downright fantastic.
darthdiablo
+5 Death Stare
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Ah okay. Not as tech savvy on this as some of you but this would mean DLSS usage would be pretty costly based on Rich's DF mention right? (like 18ms for a certain scenario). But some of that can be mitigated away from having better clock speeds (better than the ones Rich/DF was able to use for the video) right?
I don't understand why they couldn't just be normal and call it like a RTX 3040 or something. RTX 2050 is just a pointlessly confusing name.
I believe dlss in particular, will likely run very close to optimal speed on Drake, and it might not have on Riches setup.
Considering Nintendo and Nvidia had DLSS in mind since the conceptual stage of NG.
D
Deleted member 887
Guest
Probably! I brought up 720p only because the benchmark has the native 720p performance, and that doesn't quite hit 60 on that rig, and 720p is the internal resolution for 1440p Performance mode.
Which is a roundabout way of saying "DLSS overhead isn't the reason 1440p can't hit 60fps, it's just the game itself"
Apenknul
CJ for Smash
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I saw the video, yeah, but wasn't really sure due to the fact I didn't understand the terms that were said. But it looked allright to me. I wasn't bothered by the 30fps whatsoever. But if this could be the lowest setting, so to speak, of what the Switch 2 could do, and it could actually be better than what the DF video showed, I'm not one complaining. Thanks
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DLSS is magic, but it's not infinite magic. 360->1080 looks noticeably rougher than 540->1080. So, not free. And no, being on an 8" screen doesn't make the differences unnoticeable, any more than it's unnoticeable when a Switch portable game uses subnative resolution.
FSR2 being unusable seems especially unlikely, considering it's started showing up in Switch games.
I don't know, man, if the question is "Doesn't that make X impossible?", "Do not do X" isn't much of a counterpoint, it's just agreeing.
You can go from any resolution to any resolution. Just, the greater the difference between input and output resolution, the worse job the final result will be at fooling you into thinking it's a proper version of the output resolution. 480->720, you'll accept it as 720 easy. 480->1080, you might accept it as 1080 most of the time. 480->4K, you will think that is one messed up 4K.
Here's the fuller version, which also includes 144p and 288p. 288->1440 would proportionally be similar to 432->4K.
Well, that's the way it SHOULD be done if you want to produce an image that looks proper 4K, rather than just... 1080p with benefits, or whatever.
Because it's the first one to have hardware that specifically allows decently reaching such high resolutions from lower resolution input.
Ghostsonplanets
Ghost in the Sales
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I think instead of fixating into the 18ms frametime cost of DLSS 4K that Rich showed, it's better to just think that DLSS isn't a free resource. But to answer you properly, yes. DLSS 4K would be pretty costly from what Rich gathered. That being said, there are ways to mitigate the costs, like DLSS working on a already buffered frame while the engine works in the next frame, in exchange for increased latency. But that's up to the devs.
As I said, for now, just think that DLSS 4K is expensive and isn't a "free lunch". For some games, it will be unfeasible to target DLSS 4K and they might go with DLSS 1440p, 1800p, etc.
Agreed. I guess their thinking was that RTX was a too premium of a brand to be used on a xx40 class. But they just made things very confusing in the process. IMO they should have simply called it MX 570 and cancelled the real MX570 (Which makes zero sense and was barely picked up by laptop OEMs).
D
Deleted member 887
Guest
It is confusing, but it's not entirely pointless. The 2050M wasn't launched with the rest of the 20 series (obviously, it's 30 series silicon). RTX 20 cards were given a second launch during pandemic for capacity reasons, using bins of dies that might ordinarily be scrapped, or just warehoused dies that would have been cut in price radically when the 30 series came out. The 2050M was part of the same move, taking a GA107 that likely would have been completely scrapped in ordinary times.
I don't think Nvidia wanted to call attention to a product that had previous gen performance, and that they intended to retire the moment the chip shortage ended.
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Yay.
Switch 2 will be able to run pretty much any next generation game at 30fps and a DLSS 4K. Especially with the specific optimization that goes into consoles vs. PC, the fact that the real life docked clock speeds will be higher, and the continued optimization of DLSS. Which will get even better considering more developers will be using it in a closed console environment.
BreakAtmo
Moblin
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And via DLSS Concurrency. Add an extra frame of latency, but then get more responsiveness back due to the higher framerates.
SoldierDelta
Designated Xenoblade Loremaster
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Sense doesn't make sense in the video game industry. Shame on you for thinking otherwise.
Honestly, your comment made me realise something else. There is a lot of people in this world that don't particularly care about 60fps on everything, and a lot of Switch games don't even hit that marker consistently. I think the Switch would be fine with 30fps as a bare minimum, and that's all cool and stuff. Besides, not every game has 60fps as a standard on "high power" systems anyway. No point losing sleep over that. 60fps is nice, but thinking it's a requirement is a bit goofy.I saw the video, yeah, but wasn't really sure due to the fact I didn't understand the terms that were said. But it looked allright to me. I wasn't bothered by the 30fps whatsoever. But if this could be the lowest setting, so to speak, of what the Switch 2 could do, and it could actually be better than what the DF video showed, I'm not one complaining. Thanks
Also, resolution wise, as long as the game goes as high as it can after DLSS, I'm happy with some games going a bit lower to sacrifice resolution for a 60fps boost.
Ghostsonplanets
Ghost in the Sales
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Well, if that's the case, then they failed. Because it's being picked up by OEMs for CUDA compatible office laptops and cheap gaming laptops. I think OEMs fully intend to replace the RTX 3050 4GB with RTX 2050 and upsell the RTX 3050 6GB.
Kise Ryota
Moblin
Not as tech savvy here too, but when Rich tried the higher clocks, it was already beyond what we could see on Switch 2 based on what we know about it (because the 2050 already has 33% more CUDA cores and tensor cores).
So, at 750MHz I would say you would need drake at 1GHz to equal the raw performance. Anything we get past that is profit lol
Of course, I'm talking theoretically here, nothing more. How switch 2 will work (in comparison with this tested setup) is something we can't know.
- Pronouns
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Very unpopular opinion but post DF video I'm... significantly less excited now. Not really shaping up to be any better than the Steam Deck it seems.
BreakAtmo
Moblin
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I wonder what the 2050 would be like with the kind of RAM we're expecting from T239. My understanding is that LPDDR5 would be better in every way (latency, speed and quantity)?
D
Deleted member 3433
Guest
It's not comparable to the Steam Deck. This is dedicated hardware with a custom chipset, not a sized-down PC that has to be compatible with "everything".
SuperFakerBros
Anti-Artistic Integrity
Definitely a big one but I'd imagine it'd also be one to show the results of DLSS for a lower resolution title
Lancelot
Like Like
Yep, since the demoed 2050 had less bandwidth than what the T239 already has in its LPDDR5 configuration. Not by much, but it essentially gets all of the benefits in comparison.
Lancelot
Like Like
What, not better? But if it literally doubled its frames on most situations, not to say the higher settings all of the games had in comparison.
Kise Ryota
Moblin
It seems the advantage for switch 2 is gonna be more RAM for the GPU, but less bandwidth (because it has to share the bandwidth with the CPU, but on PC the GPU and CPU have their own memory)
But I don't have enough knowledge here, and I imagine it's too hard trying to compare a closed system with PC when you have specs that aren't that far from each other.
BreakAtmo
Moblin
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Don't be too pessimistic. I'm repeating myself here, but Switch 2 will have several advantages:
- dedicated console (good for optimisation) with lighter OS
- better GPU RAM across the board
- the ability to offload the DLSS rendering to the next frame, making it essentially "free" at the cost of an extra frame of latency, which could then be countered by the higher framerate
AnimalCrosser
Rattata
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- He
Arguably the better chip design as well. ARM seems to be the future.for real. the switch 2's t239 system-on-a-chip having RT cores and tensor (for AI processing) cores means after multiple generations nintendo is using hardware features that are more advanced than the ps5 and xbox series x hardware features
BreakAtmo
Moblin
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Thanks, that's what I thought.
Are you sure that's how it works? I thought that each unit would have full bandwidth within the amount of RAM they were using, they just have to share the RAM.
lemonfresh
#Team2024
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Well you could always get a Steam Deck, better third party support too probably
kvetcha
hoopy frood
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My understanding is the interface supports a maximum total bandwidth regardless of what is doing the accessing. It's one big pipe with two mouths to feed.
Kise Ryota
Moblin
I have always read (elsewhere) that when you have one single pool of memory, the bandwidth is shared through CPU and GPU. But if the way it works is that only one of them is having access to the RAM at a time, then I think it shouldn't matter and both should use the full bandwidth all the time?
But then all I have read so far in other places was I lie and there was never a problem to begin with lol which would be weird if this is the case.
EDIT: thinking about it. If we have a system where cpu and gpu have their own memory, they should access these memories at the same time. But if you have a system with only one pool, then the cpu needs to wait the gpu to finish its work before it can use the RAM too, and vice versa (if both aren't accessing it at the same time), so when we talk about bandwidth here we're talking about time. If the GPU has to wait for the CPU to use the RAM, then the GPU will have less time to use it, which mean less bandwidth in practice. And if both access it at the same time (if that's how it could also work), them bandwidth is still shared anyway. Someone correct me if I'm wrong here
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D36
#WOHOYHASAWAKENED
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You have a point. The constant warnings just seem tantamount to nagging to me, especially when I don't consider going off topic all that detrimental to the thread.
darthdiablo
+5 Death Stare
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Yeah. Wherever Nintendo games are going, that's where I'm going too.
I don't care too much what third parties do, but I really hope Nintendo focuses on 60fps this gen (another reason why I want that system to get as close to Series S as possible in raw flops before DLSS), or offer performance modes.
30fps may be fine for some, but the age of LCD is dying off fast and QD-OLED/OLED and whatever technologies come later have near instant response times, making 30fps look an absolute slideshow to people like me without some kind of motion blur setting.
D
Deleted member 887
Guest
The video shows every game tested exceed Steam Deck in performance, image quality and resolution.
I’m not sure what it would take to make you excited?
It’s a bit apples and oranges. More RAM, better latency, but the bandwidth pool is only slightly larger but has to feed the CPU as well, which the laptop doesn’t.
Ultimately, the only way to get closer is to wait for the thing itself to come out.
ItWasMeantToBe19
Manakete
So would it be possible to do something like
0-16.6 ms: CPU works on first frame
16.6-33.3 ms: CPU works on second frame, GPU works on first frame
33.3-50 ms: CPU works on third frame, GPU works on second frame, tensor cores do DLSS step on first frame
etc
But with the latency of a game running at 60 Hz by separating game logic from the rendering?
Or am I missing something and saying something stupid here.
I would very much like this to be the case so that Smash is forced to separate game logic from rendering so that rollback is easy to introduce.
0-16.6 ms: CPU works on first frame
16.6-33.3 ms: CPU works on second frame, GPU works on first frame
33.3-50 ms: CPU works on third frame, GPU works on second frame, tensor cores do DLSS step on first frame
etc
But with the latency of a game running at 60 Hz by separating game logic from the rendering?
Or am I missing something and saying something stupid here.
I would very much like this to be the case so that Smash is forced to separate game logic from rendering so that rollback is easy to introduce.
SoldierDelta
Designated Xenoblade Loremaster
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Nintendo seems to go for 60fps or 30fps depending on the developer and what they want to do for their game. Monolith Soft and Zelda team are fine with trading in performance, while 3D Mario and Smash Bros teams understand why their games need 60fps. It's something i can live with, especially since they usually make sense as to why their games are 30fps depending on the game.
Usually they don't have much of a choice either, since Nintendo hardware is often very limited since the Wii. This time, there needn't be that kind of constraint. Zelda and XB are big games with bigger worlds vs 3D Mario and Smash.
Or they could just throw in a 60fps mode if and get with the program!
Ghostsonplanets
Ghost in the Sales
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I'm not saying that you're wrong (Everyone has their own perception) but what was showed in DF video is significantly ahead of what SteamDeck produces? Cyberpunk 2077 at 1080p30 with PS5 equivalent settings or Control at 1080p30 with PS5 equivalent settings but with full Ray-Tracing reflections are well beyond what SteamDeck can imagine to do. I'm guessing what you're trying to convey is that what DF video showed isn't a leap over what SteamDeck already can do, which is to run last-gen and current-gen games at decent image quality and graphical fidelity?
That's how UMA (Unified Memory Architecture) works, yes. Both CPU and GPU can fetch data at the same time, without the need of copy transfer between CPU and GPU. The disavantage of said model is that, by the fact CPU and GPU share memory, they compete with each other for bandwidth, which can lead to contention issues. But that's something that the OS (On PCs) and developers (On fixed hardware. i.e: consoles) need to work around.
SoldierDelta
Designated Xenoblade Loremaster
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Oh I dream that there's a performance and quality mode. That'd be ideal, but I understand if some games just outright don't.
I should probably point out that Nintendo is a... unique beast when it comes to the games they make. The reason why a lot of their games probably won't get a quality/performance modes is because games like Zelda are very gameplay focused, to the point that changing the graphics might not change the performance. If we get to that point, then performance modes might not be a thing. It's a shame, but I'll flail my arms in the air and shout "it is what it is" and give up.
darthdiablo
+5 Death Stare
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Do you own a Steam Deck? (I don't)
Was wondering what made you say that considering the other replies are saying what's shown in DF video shows the setup, which we clearly know cannot dupe T239 exactly but is at lower end of spectrum of what T239 can do, is outperforming Steam Deck easily. Maybe you saw something others didn't, what was it?
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