• Hey everyone, staff have documented a list of banned content and subject matter that we feel are not consistent with site values, and don't make sense to host discussion of on Famiboards. This list (and the relevant reasoning per item) is viewable here.

StarTopic Future Nintendo Hardware & Technology Speculation & Discussion |ST| (Read the staff posts before commenting!)

Are there any good examples of how the end result would look if you go from very low resolution to 4K? Like tests on YouTube or such.
There are several tests of Control from when DLSS 2 launched a few years ago, which get posted here a lot. Maybe others can link something more recent or with a higher output res?

For a non-serious example, though, my favorite is this one: 72p to 1440p.

 
Re: the 18ms debate

My take is not that Rich is saying that it will have the exactly the same cost on T239, instead to indicate to the audience that DLSS upscaling is not, as he put it, a free lunch. Even at 8ms that is 1/2 of the render budget at 60fps, necessitating to do every other calculation in 8ms, which is quite the ask for most modern games considering the CPU and GPU.
 
The Digital Foundry video is really good, and a nice thought experiment. But as it's been said many times, there's likely things we don't know, and straight PC hardware comparisons should be taken sparingly.

DLSS isn't magic by any means, even if it does feel close sometimes. If Nvidia is even half as invested in Nintendo as they should be at this point, they've most certainly done specialty work to make sure the hardware has the special sauce to perform well even with the limitations in play.

If the weight many exclusive Switch games punch at is any indication, Switch 2 games are going to look way better than anyone would expect them to.
 
Eh, we got some Holidays next week. That should keep us occupied. I doubt they would preclude an announcement, since these are US Holidays.
The holiday is on Saturday. It's not really a factor since they already don't really announce things Friday US time due to timezones.
 
Re: the 18ms debate

My take is not that Rich is saying that it will have the exactly the same cost on T239, instead to indicate to the audience that DLSS upscaling is not, as he put it, a free lunch. Even at 8ms that is 1/2 of the render budget at 60fps, necessitating to do every other calculation in 8ms, which is quite the ask for most modern games considering the CPU and GPU.
Most console games do not do CPU and GPU work in the same shared frame time. They do CPU work for the current frame while GPU work is being done for the previous frame.
 
There are several tests of Control from when DLSS 2 launched a few years ago, which get posted here a lot. Maybe others can link something more recent or with a higher output res?

For a non-serious example, though, my favorite is this one: 72p to 1440p.


The way the noise just takes over rendering completely always gets me. Ends up looking pretty cool sometimes, could almost warrant "It's not a bug, it's a feature".
 
No need to feel hurt over a simple joke.
More important, I think, is not to make hurtful jokes. Or any jokes at the expense of other users.

And no, 2.2TF is not an unrealistic number for handheld, in fact it's in line with others' predictions on here.

Just because you disagree with something, of course, doesn't give you free licence to mock it. 🙂
 
Re: the 18ms debate

My take is not that Rich is saying that it will have the exactly the same cost on T239, instead to indicate to the audience that DLSS upscaling is not, as he put it, a free lunch. Even at 8ms that is 1/2 of the render budget at 60fps, necessitating to do every other calculation in 8ms, which is quite the ask for most modern games considering the CPU and GPU.
DLSS can run in parallel with the next frame being rendered, adding at most a frame of latency.

If Nvidia is even half as invested in Nintendo as they should be at this point, they've most certainly done specialty work to make sure the hardware has the special sauce to perform well even with the limitations in play.
This!
I can't imagine Nvidia or Nintendo developing a custom chip, with RT core, Tensor cores, FDE etc just for the sake of it.
They wouldn't pay for silicon they don't intend to use, and I'm sure they did their homework on how to effectively use it.
 
I have a question have Nintendo ever done a reveal close to a investors meeting before? It would be interesting to see the history of the investor meetings and what they announced at them
They typically don't reveal things at investor briefings, though they do rarely announce Directs during them.
 
I have a question have Nintendo ever done a reveal close to a investors meeting before? It would be interesting to see the history of the investor meetings and what they announced at them
Yes, the original Switch was revealed just under a week from their October 26th Earnings Report. In 2020, that was our main way of knowing when some things would be announced, like Pikmin 3 DX, and the July Partner Showcase. They also had an Indie World just a day or so before/after their Earnings Release last year.
 
I have a question have Nintendo ever done a reveal close to a investors meeting before? It would be interesting to see the history of the investor meetings and what they announced at them
Close to, yes. During is less common, but that is how they announced NX and its release window.
 
I have a question have Nintendo ever done a reveal close to a investors meeting before? It would be interesting to see the history of the investor meetings and what they announced at them
To be fair, I think most of us aren't expecting it to be announced DURING the investor meeting. Close to it yes, and yes we have past examples.
 
LiC and others already looked at Nvidia data and Linux commits. T239 does not feature DLA and I'm puzzled as why he added that to his video (As, iirc, Oldpuck asked the same question here ages ago based on his conversation with Rich and we were able to see that T239 lacked DLA). Guess it's just something he didn't could cut from his video.

I mean, BoTW is a Wii U game. It shouldn't be difficult for Nintendo to run it at 4K60 DLSS on the new hardware. Although the reports of BoTW 4K60 goes against Rich finding of 18ms 4K DLSS frametime cost, so that's something to keep in mind.

With a very rough calculation, a Drake that's 8x as potent as the Switch's TX1 should be able to achieve native 1800p60 (more with further engine fixes) in BotW with no DLSS involved whatsoever. If anything that demo could've very well been 4K60 dynares, no DLSS.
 
Please do not be inflammatory. Jokes are not “harmless” if users are explicitly saying they got hurt by them. - big lantern ghost, meatbag, Dragoncaine
And no, 2.2TF is not an unrealistic number for handheld, in fact it's in line with others' predictions on here.

You can believe in whatever you want, but this is not present in that file LiC found with 3 clock profiles

Hidden content is only available for registered users. Sharing it outside of Famiboards is subject to moderation.

And, once again, I must say LiC himself (and Thraktor too) were against using this as anything meaningful. Again, you can believe whatever you want, but 2.2TF isn't in line with the leak, period.

Really, no need to act like this. You mistyped both "clocks", but I just thought it was your well-known optimism in action and increasing even further the clocks. Even the TF's you gave have the [almost] doubled performance in docked (which is what many here expect for drake), which really made it seems you were real with those clocks. I'm guilty of thinking that.

Anyway, simple and harmless jokes about other people's posts are not allowed. All right. I'll remember that.

Edit: yeah, I'm definitely going to remember that. Thanks, mods. Let's see if my reports are going to work too or if you're all just hypocrites.
 
Last edited:
With a very rough calculation, a Drake that's 8x as potent as the Switch's TX1 should be able to achieve native 1800p60 (more with further engine fixes) in BotW with no DLSS involved whatsoever. If anything that demo could've very well been 4K60 dynares, no DLSS.
Wasn't it specified to be 4k60 with dlss?
 
You can prune CNNs by removing filters instead of just setting parameters to 0.

Sure, that’s true. Based on the various similar papers we’ve seen, the deepest hidden layer in DLSS likely only has around 256-1024 filters. It seems unlikely to me that there would be sufficient redundancy among those filters that you could remove, say, 10-20% of them just for the Switch without a significant impact to the output quality, even with retraining. But I’ll admit, it’s possible.

One other point is that the most computationally intensive layers in a convolutional autoencoder tend to be the ones with the fewest channels at the start of the encoder and the end of the decoder because of the downsampling/upsampling nature. From the perspective of pruning entire filters, fewer channels means that redundancy is unlikely.
 
Sure, that’s true. Based on the various similar papers we’ve seen, the deepest hidden layer in DLSS likely only has around 256-1024 filters. It seems unlikely to me that there would be sufficient redundancy among those filters that you could remove, say, 10-20% of them just for the Switch without a significant impact to the output quality, even with retraining. But I’ll admit, it’s possible.

One other point is that the most computationally intensive layers in a convolutional autoencoder tend to be the ones with the fewest channels at the start of the encoder and the end of the decoder because of the downsampling/upsampling nature. From the perspective of pruning entire filters, fewer channels means that redundancy is unlikely.

Oh, there would absolutely be a significant impact to output quality if you heavily pruned this, of course.

Basically, NVIDIA would be making a very shitty version of DLSS (maybe shittier than FSR2) to run on a mobile hardware with very aggressive pruning.

It may end up being so bad as to be unusable with aggressive pruning though.
 
The big problem with the DLSS testing in the vid is that it ignores PC games often scale stuff like LOD depending on OUTPUT resolution.
Obviously 4K DLSS looks unfeasable : because they're running the 4K LODs and/or post-process and/or textures.

Using DF's methodology on Techpowerup's data we can say a 3060 needs 2.9 ms for 4K dlss.
Considering Nvidia's number for the 3060 TI is 1.52ms...

I doubt the 3060 is twice slower than a TI.

And DF's numbers are made using depth of field, which would cripple performance if it's running at output resolution. Techpowerup's numbers are without depth of field, and yet still seem to indicate an unrealistic runtime.
 
Last edited:
I haven't watched the full video yet (I'll do so at work today), but having some sort of solid visual evidence of "what we can expect based on leaks" is incredibly nice, even if Rich himself does admit it's on the lower end of the spectrum due to the lack of any special Nintendo / Nvidia optimizations.

While I don't doubt the leaks saying that 4k60 BotW and the Matrix Unreal demo were possible on the Switch 2, I do think that any kind of 4k60 games are going to be exclusively on Nintendo's end. Granted, I don't think many people here expected otherwise, but Nintendo tends to always have the best looking games on their consoles thanks to knowing all the ins-and-outs of their hardware. It makes me really excited to see what studios like Monolith Soft are going to be able to do, but I do think this video has helped bring down my expectations some, even if they weren't relatively high to begin with.

Regardless, I think even something like Death Stranding being able to almost just about hit 4k30 is pretty impressive, especially considering the aforementioned complete lack of optimizations. While I definitely think the Switch 2 is going to have a fair share of pretty shoddy ports (even the PS5 and XSX struggle to get 4k60 on a lot of stuff so I can only imagine what a low-budget port of a current gen title could look like, especially considering how unoptimized some titles are these days), it makes "miracle ports" seem like they'll be a whole lot more feasible, even if they aren't hitting the 4k60 numbers a lot of new outlets seem to be suggesting. Of course, that's probably not news for anyone in this thread though.
I have a question have Nintendo ever done a reveal close to a investors meeting before? It would be interesting to see the history of the investor meetings and what they announced at them
The 3DS was first announced a week before the end of the 2010 fiscal year via press release, the Wii U was first announced alongside Nintendo's April 2011 financial report, and the Switch was first announced as the NX alongside Nintendo's the announcement of their DeNA partnership in March 2015. While they used to be more commonly announced at events like E3, as Nintendo has since moved further away from live expos and more to their own Direct showcases, all three of their most recent major hardware releases have been first brought up around significant times in Nintendo's fiscal year.
 
but I do think this video has helped bring down my expectations some, even if they weren't relatively high to begin with.
Excuse me but, what were your expectations at the first place? This is a close approximation to the chip in the console lacking memory, console optimization and using Windows... DF himself stated this is all on the lower end of the spectrum, since T239 is a customized chip for a reason, the very fact it's already performing this incredibly well does all but lower expectations. And keep in mind this is under handheld clocks, docked should perform very similar to the stock 2050 out there (if not better).
 
Simultaneously running other stuff on the CUDA cores while the tensor cores are working on DLSS seems like the most obvious possible optimization here unless you can overclock the tensor cores by idling the CUDA cores during the DLSS step.

The most interesting optimization is whether Nintendo can build a neural network that can utilize the tensor cores outside of the DLSS step as the tensor cores are not utilized at all by modern games outside of the DLSS step.
 
Excuse me but, what were your expectations at the first place? This is a close approximation to the chip in the console lacking memory, console optimization and using Windows... DF himself stated this is all on the lower end of the spectrum, since T239 is a customized chip for a reason, the very fact it's already performing this incredibly well does all but lower expectations.
Ngl, with the expectations that I had from the Steam Deck, my hopes actually raised a bit. This is a lower-end expectation, and it's already kicking the Steam Deck's ass. Comparing Control on the Steam Deck to Control on the underclocked 2050 made me cry tears of joy.

And this is the stuff that Nintendo is going to be using for their system. A company that has several studios that maximises the use of the hardware and creates amazing games.

Frankly, I can live with the hardware if this is what we're getting. We're not getting this however, we're probably getting something better. I can die happy.
 
There are several tests of Control from when DLSS 2 launched a few years ago, which get posted here a lot. Maybe others can link something more recent or with a higher output res?

For a non-serious example, though, my favorite is this one: 72p to 1440p.


That could be a super cool effect for a psychological horror game where the world is literally breaking apart around you. Come on, Nintendo, make Eternal Darkness 2 with this.
 
Simultaneously running other stuff on the CUDA cores while the tensor cores are working on DLSS seems like the most obvious possible optimization here unless you can overclock the tensor cores by idling the CUDA cores during the DLSS step.

The most interesting optimization is whether Nintendo can build a neural network that can utilize the tensor cores outside of the DLSS step as the tensor cores are not utilized at all by modern games outside of the DLSS step.

It would be interesting to see some voices or music generated by ML.

I don't know much about AI, but what about procedural generation of assets, textures, or maybe even meshes.
 
That could be a super cool effect for a psychological horror game where the world is literally breaking apart around you. Come on, Nintendo, make Eternal Darkness 2 with this.
If Nintendo made a remake or sequel to Eternal Darkness, they would make the most legitimately unnerving game ever made. Imagine the game just slowly dissolving as the sanity meter goes down. I'm thinking something like a merger between The Void from the Binding of Isaac and The Clockwork Mansion from Dishonored 2. That shit would be insanely cool.
 
Ngl, with the expectations that I had from the Steam Deck, my hopes actually raised a bit. This is a lower-end expectation, and it's already kicking the Steam Deck's ass. Comparing Control on the Steam Deck to Control on the underclocked 2050 made me cry tears of joy.

And this is the stuff that Nintendo is going to be using for their system. A company that has several studios that maximises the use of the hardware and creates amazing games.

Frankly, I can live with the hardware if this is what we're getting. We're not getting this however, we're probably getting something better. I can die happy.
Yeah, that's insane. It's already kicking Steam Deck's ass on the expected handheld mode, even at native 720p... An off-the-shell chip we and the folks at DF are using to approximate the actual T239, I don't get how someone can look at this and somehow lower their expectations. Heck, it's already a few frames behind Rog Ally in some of these tests (while handheld!), and don't even get me started on the RT performance... I'm very excited man, Switch 2 will kick ass.
 
Excuse me but, what were your expectations at the first place? This is a close approximation to the chip in the console lacking memory, console optimization and using Windows... DF himself stated this is all on the lower end of the spectrum, since T239 is a customized chip for a reason, the very fact it's already performing this incredibly well does all but lower expectations. And keep in mind this is under handheld clocks, docked should perform very similar to the stock 2050 out there (if not better).
It was 750 mhz, also keep in mind it's 16sm
 
typically... but you have games like No Man's Sky that do procedural generation on the user side
Procedural generation isn't AI driven though. It's probably best explained by how Minecraft or the Binding of Isaac does it. Essentially, there's a mapped set of combinations that a game can have, and a "seed" can generate X amount of combinations for a world. The longer the seed, the more combinations that can generate.

No Man's Sky is a similar case, however the generation is already done. That's more "there's 63 variables that are either on or off, so that's 2 combinations to the power of 63 different variables". Hence why, when you punch "2^63" into a calculator, you get a number that's unreasonably huge. That number is the total amount of planets in NMS because that's the amount of combinations that were made. When you travel to a star system, that "combination" is loaded.

I think you could do something else with AI cores, but the amount of development costs would be... alot... and probably not worth it.
 
0
People are already aware of that, 4 more SM isn't enough of a difference to skew these results when using Windows and unoptimized ports are the samples.
My point was that clocks were higher than at least I expect in portable mode,+ more silicon.

But yea, its obviously not an apples to apples comparison.
 
My point was that clocks were higher than at least I expect in portable mode,+ more silicon.

But yea, its obviously not an apples to apples comparison.
That might be what you expect but 750mhz is very much on the table. It's a very small difference that can even be upped by specific games like with the Switch (assuming we're talking about Thraktor's 660mhz as the base).
 
Yeah, that's insane. It's already kicking Steam Deck's ass on the expected handheld mode, even at native 720p... An off-the-shell chip we and the folks at DF are using to approximate the actual T239, I don't get how someone can look at this and somehow lower their expectations. Heck, it's already a few frames behind Rog Ally in some of these tests (while handheld!), and don't even get me started on the RT performance... I'm very excited man, Switch 2 will kick ass.
I didn't do any comparisons to the ROG Ally due to inexperience, but the fact that's the case... and will likely cost much less? Goddamn we've got a cool as hell system on our hands. Genuinely can't wait.
 
There are several tests of Control from when DLSS 2 launched a few years ago, which get posted here a lot. Maybe others can link something more recent or with a higher output res?

For a non-serious example, though, my favorite is this one: 72p to 1440p.


I would play that game in a heartbeat, that looks wacky as hell
 
A big miss with the DF test was ignoring power draw. How many watts was the RTX2050 pulling when clocked at 750Mhz? If its over 20 watts, that should have been a red flag that T239 cannot be on 8nm. If its not on 8nm then it is very likely 4N and 750Mhz is closer to the portable profile rather than docked. If the docked profile does end up being 1.1Ghz, that would mean those tensor cores will be clocked 32% higher than in their test.
 
I didn't do any comparisons to the ROG Ally due to inexperience, but the fact that's the case... and will likely cost much less? Goddamn we've got a cool as hell system on our hands. Genuinely can't wait.
You can find benchmarks with the Ally running these games, the biggest difference shows on Cyberpunk by a long shot.
 
There are several tests of Control from when DLSS 2 launched a few years ago, which get posted here a lot. Maybe others can link something more recent or with a higher output res?

For a non-serious example, though, my favorite is this one: 72p to 1440p.


wow looks amazing, can’t wait to get my hands on this 😍😍
 
Please read this staff post before posting.

Furthermore, according to this follow-up post, all off-topic chat will be moderated.
Last edited:


Back
Top Bottom