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StarTopic Future Nintendo Hardware & Technology Speculation & Discussion |ST| (Read the staff posts before commenting!)

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Ghostsonplanets said:
Relevant links:
Post in thread 'Future Nintendo Hardware & Technology Speculation & Discussion |ST| (Read the staff posts before commenting!)' https://famiboards.com/threads/futu...-staff-posts-before-commenting.55/post-616260

Post in thread 'Future Nintendo Hardware & Technology Speculation & Discussion |ST| (Read the staff posts before commenting!)' https://famiboards.com/threads/futu...-staff-posts-before-commenting.55/post-683773
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Thank you very much. @Thraktor, your post was fascinating and now I am further hyped.

One thing - I assume your number of 1.1GHz docked is assuming they keep the current (heh) 15 watts. Do you have any notion what the clocks might be if they choose to crank the docked power draw to 25 watts? I know that would be getting much more inefficient, but that matters less when battery life isn't a concern.
 
YolkFolk said:
Guys, I genuinely think this could be my dream console.

Nintendo games with at least PS4 graphics and offering better resolutions and frame rates along with the all important (to me) handheld play when needed.

I’m even wondering if I will even need to buy a PS5 since I think there’s a big chance games like Street Fighter 6 and Resident Evil 9 will actually come to this thing.

I can even see EA Sports FC being very close to the Series/PS5 version in terms of gameplay and visuals. It’s not a highly demanding game so it will be very interesting to see how close they can get it.
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I wouldn't be sure on EA, their Nintendo support has been baffling for many years.
 
Jimkulus said:
I have a question that hopefully someone with more technical knowledge may be able to answer.

If Nintendo were to turn something like that BotW demo into a patch, how could the loading times be eliminated with physical copies? I would think that the old read speeds of the current cartridge format would limit how fast the game could load, but I'm not entirely sure. Would the game have to be installed onto internal memory for this to work?
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Like others in this thread have said, Read speed is limited by the "reader", not the cart. So in theory you could improve read speed by having a better reader.
 
Herb Alpert said:
It would just prove even more to the yakuza guy that this a day machine on which they obviously can't put their Night game
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Hmm ... then they would best add Dollar and Yen signs being shown, too. That way, the people in suits (suits > shades in company hierarchy) would tell the shades to get their stuff together.
 
YolkFolk said:
Guys, I genuinely think this could be my dream console.

Nintendo games with at least PS4 graphics and offering better resolutions and frame rates along with the all important (to me) handheld play when needed.

I’m even wondering if I will even need to buy a PS5 since I think there’s a big chance games like Street Fighter 6 and Resident Evil 9 will actually come to this thing.

I can even see EA Sports FC being very close to the Series/PS5 version in terms of gameplay and visuals. It’s not a highly demanding game so it will be very interesting to see how close they can get it.
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I agree, I have a PS5 and so far my two favourite games that I've played on it are Elden Ring and Baldur's Gate 3. Two games that don't push the console to it's potential visual limits. Last gen's visual fidelity (without the resolution or FPS problems) is good enough for most people.
 
oracion said:
@ILikeFeet @Thraktor
Why is TSMC 4N considered a strong candidate?
I think it was Samsung 8nm in data mining.
The SoC needs to be redesigned, but is it possible?
The unit cost of TSMC 4N wafers is considerably higher than Samsung 8nm.
Sorry if my knowledge is incorrect.
Click to expand...
I think it's just wishful thinking. Samsung 8nm will make the T239 perform less than expected judging by the gamescom leaks.
 
Jimkulus said:
I have a question that hopefully someone with more technical knowledge may be able to answer.

If Nintendo were to turn something like that BotW demo into a patch, how could the loading times be eliminated with physical copies? I would think that the old read speeds of the current cartridge format would limit how fast the game could load, but I'm not entirely sure. Would the game have to be installed onto internal memory for this to work?
Click to expand...
ertaboy356b said:
Like others in this thread have said, Read speed is limited by the "reader", not the cart. So in theory you could improve read speed by having a better reader.
Click to expand...

They would have to remake all textures to 4K-ready, so the patch would be be pretty big in size.

I'd love physical BC but I don't expect to use my carts as-is and have any benefit.
Switch 1 carts could only serve as a DRM check for downloaded games.
 
ertaboy356b said:
I think it's just wishful thinking. Samsung 8nm will make the T239 perform less than expected judging by the gamescom leaks.
Click to expand...
What exactly, based on gamescom leaks, make you think that T239 will perform less than expected?

And what are those expectations?
 
Nintendo said that they will only release the Switch 2 once this thread reaches 2160 pages

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oracion said:
@ILikeFeet @Thraktor
Why is TSMC 4N considered a strong candidate?
I think it was Samsung 8nm in data mining. The SoC needs to be redesigned, but is it possible?
The unit cost of TSMC 4N wafer is considerably higher than Samsung 8nm.
Sorry if my knowledge is incorrect.
Click to expand...
4N or N5 seem to be the leading candidates just based on the known die size and power consumption curves.

Samsung 8nm was in the leak (I thought? Maybe not )but it may have been a holdover from the T234 documentation, like a few other tidbits from the leak, and may not be accurate. It would be really difficult to achieve the performance we're hearing about on 8nm. It may still be possible though, we really don't know for sure.
 
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ghostboltz said:
Sorry, i was busy yesterday with family and friends on my birthday.. What happened for the sudden jump in pages XD?

Can anyone catch me up? 🤭
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The Switch 2 released on September 10th 2023, the amount of excitement generated on Fami board far exceeded anyone's wildest dreams, but from this burst of energy it tore a hole in space time, sending every single user in Famiboards into an alternate timeline where the Switch 2 won't release until next year.

We entered this Garden of Eden and ate the forbidden fruit, seeking knowledge of hardware specs and power to say "i knew that this was going to happen months in advance B)" in petty internet arguments, forbidden knowledge of unreleased consoles and leaks of unannounced games. Upon the decision to enter this sanctiy, our longing for this forbidden fruit had entered us into a fate which there would be no turning back from, recieve hype in one hand, and nintendo dooming in the other.
 
Armoured_Bear said:
I wouldn't be sure on EA, their Nintendo support has been baffling for many years.
Click to expand...

True, although looking at the latest version of EA Sports FC for Switch, they’ve taken big steps this year to make sure it is level with the other versions in terms of features and presentation. Maybe this was the first step to making sure the Switch 2 version is of a high standard.
 
Bigdog said:
All of that being said, I am surprised to see the likes of Steam Deck, ROG Ally, and Legion GO, working with AMD instead of Nvidia. For the very same reasons as above I believe Nintendo also has the edge on them. Are there contractual reasons? Someone more knowledgeable than me probably knows the answer.
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Because PC Gaming is x86 land and Nvidia doesn't has the rights to create an x86 processor and thus can't create an power-efficient x86 CPU + Nvidia GPU with access to DLSS, RTX, etc.
Nintendo, by virtue of being a console manufacturer and not being burdened by legacy applications, is able to pick whatever ISA they want for their console and thus, for Nintendo, it's viable to choose Nvidia Arm + Nvidia GPU SoC. But for others PC handheld, they need to use x86 processors because that's what is supported on Windows PC Land and that means they're locked to AMD or Intel.
Godhound said:


um, guys... was this discussed?
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pelusilla6 said:
This surprises me, they are usually good leakers and on point in tech stuff. In terms of t239, Fami is waaaay far ahead!
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Revegnus is not a leaker. He's a bullshitter and pickback from others leaks to create the illusion that they know something.
T234 is the Orin die and is being employed currently in automotive and others industries/applications. You can even buy one right now. So it wasn't cancelled and he doesn't even know what he's talking.
As for T239, we don't know the node it's fabbed, but Samsung 8N makes no sense with what we currently know.
oracion said:
@ILikeFeet @Thraktor
Why is TSMC 4N considered a strong candidate?
I think it was Samsung 8nm in data mining. The SoC needs to be redesigned, but is it possible?
The unit cost of TSMC 4N wafer is considerably higher than Samsung 8nm.
Sorry if my knowledge is incorrect.
Click to expand...
First, no node was mentioned in the datamining regarding T239. There's are flags which would indicate it is fabbed on Samsung foundries, but that's stuff vestigial from T234 development.

Thraktor already did a very informed speculation on why 8N makes no sense and 4N is the most likely. TLDR: T239 on 8N would be too big and use too much energy.

Relevant links for Thraktor reasoning:
famiboards.com

Future Nintendo Hardware & Technology Speculation & Discussion |ST| (Read the staff posts before commenting!)

Yeah, it puts Samsung's 5nm processes at around the same place as TSMC's 7nm family, which is generally in line with expectations. Regarding the use of original Switch clocks on the new model, although I don't think that specific rumour about using Samsung 5LPP has any weight to it, it's...
famiboards.com famiboards.com

famiboards.com

Future Nintendo Hardware & Technology Speculation & Discussion |ST| (Read the staff posts before commenting!)

Oldpuck's leaving #teamleapday? Guess I'll have to continue flying the flag solo. On the time of 18 to 24 months from sampling to release, I assume you're talking about the TX1 and the original Switch? If so, I don't think it's really comparable, as TX1 was already entering production...
famiboards.com famiboards.com
 
YolkFolk said:
True, although looking at the latest version of EA Sports FC for Switch, they’ve taken big steps this year to make sure it is level with the other versions in terms of features and presentation. Maybe this was the first step to making sure the Switch 2 version is of a high standard.
Click to expand...

I mean ... if i was a shareholder of EA, i would tear them a third nostril if they would continue to ignore a very viable sales platform in times where everything gets more expensive for no other reason but "just because".

Same for the many japanese 3rds that sometimes act so goddamn confusing.

Market analysis. It's good for you.
 
Godhound said:
What exactly, based on gamescom leaks, make you think that T239 will perform less than expected?

And what are those expectations?
Click to expand...
To my understanding, a bigger die especially from Samsung Foundry would yield less performance due to poor thermal conditions. Nintendo would have to downclock the chip further in order to achieve the thermals they require. There are tons of discussions about this in this thread but alas it's too difficult to find them one by one. I could be wrong though but the generally 4N will yield a better and faster chip than the one from Samsung.
 
pelusilla6 said:
I was more refering to harukaze or Kepler but Yeah
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Oh! I'm sorry then. Thought you were referring to Revegnus. Harukaze is a reliable person, but it does seems he thinks the T239 is for a Pro variant rather than Switch 2. Not the biggest mistake to make given the rampant speculation the Pro model had.
 
didn’t TLoU2 and GoT release AFTER the ps5 was announced? those games also sold like crazy despite everyone knowing that the ps5 would be revealed soon. personally i don’t think software release would have an impact on hardware reveal, but ya never know.
 
Hmm, i feel like it's way too quiet today.

I hope some people out there feel like this, too.

Me? Trying to will another leak into existence? Pfff hahaha, how silly.
 
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ertaboy356b said:
I think it's just wishful thinking. Samsung 8nm will make the T239 perform less than expected judging by the gamescom leaks.

To my understanding, a bigger die especially from Samsung Foundry would yield less performance due to poor thermal conditions. Nintendo would have to downclock the chip further in order to achieve the thermals they require. There are tons of discussions about this in this thread but alas it's too difficult to find them one by one. I could be wrong though but the generally 4N will yield a better and faster chip than the one from Samsung.
Click to expand...
I think the question being made is how you came to that conclusion based by "gamecom leaks". Gamecom leaks appear to be describing a pretty powerful machine judging by the demos mentioned.
 
I know we’re in the midst of the Switch 2 reveal, but all this tech talk is making me question just how powerful the Switch 3 will be. I know it’s early, but it’s impressive just how much they’re doing with such a small form factor
 
ziggyrivers said:
I know we’re in the midst of the Switch 2 reveal, but all this tech talk is making me question just how powerful the Switch 3 will be. I know it’s early, but it’s impressive just how much they’re doing with such a small form factor
Click to expand...
It would probably sit between a PS5 and a PS6, with downports from the latter. That's how it's been for powerful handhelds for gens now, with the Switch kinda sitting where the PSP and Vita did in their day relative to home consoles. With diminishing returns, the gap will possibly seem even smaller, and that along with the success of the Switch (and Deck, to a lesser degree) often makes me wonder if Sony/MS won't just say fuck it and try to switch (heh) to some kind of hybrid approach eventually (whether it'd be one product like Nintendo or two with a unified library like PC gamers with a Deck) when moving to a new gen.
 
My Tulpa said:
Much of the current Switch userbase really doesn’t care about spending $500 to play Nintendo games that sort of look and run better in their eyes. I know it’s hard to believe that in an enthusiasts forum, but it’s true! And you better believe Nintendo thinks this is true too.
Click to expand...
Why bother spending millions designing a new console if the market doesn’t exist? This is a weird take.
 
Chaotic Neutral said:
What do people ITT think about concerns about a possible lack of backwards compatibility for the upcoming hardware? Is it likely the new system will lack the feature?
Click to expand...

I'm not personally concerned. I expect it will have BC. If not, it's not a big deal. The Switch is small enough that I can keep it where it is on my TV stand so I can use it if there are any games I want to play on it.
 
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Chaotic Neutral said:
What do people ITT think about concerns about a possible lack of backwards compatibility for the upcoming hardware? Is it likely the new system will lack the feature?
Click to expand...
it's possible it won't be backwards compatible but extremely unlikely considering for Nintendo themselves it'll be important to make customers feel like they can invest early in a new system if their current library follows.

And I don't even think there'll be any weirdness regarding only digital games being BC because Nintendo could easily have a slot that'd accept the current game cards and whatever new format they might/will use.

You also just have to look at how Nintendo treated backwards compatibility historically speaking to see they always saw it as a feature worth pursuing if it's feasible.
 
ziggyrivers said:
I know we’re in the midst of the Switch 2 reveal, but all this tech talk is making me question just how powerful the Switch 3 will be. I know it’s early, but it’s impressive just how much they’re doing with such a small form factor
Click to expand...
Lio said:
It would probably sit between a PS5 and a PS6, with downports from the latter. That's how it's been for powerful handhelds for gens now, with the Switch kinda sitting where the PSP and Vita did in their day relative to home consoles. With diminishing returns, the gap will possibly seem even smaller, and that along with the success of the Switch (and Deck, to a lesser degree) often makes me wonder if Sony/MS won't just say fuck it and try to switch (heh) to some kind of hybrid approach eventually (whether it'd be one product like Nintendo or two with a unified library like PC gamers with a Deck) when moving to a new gen.
Click to expand...

The cool thing about the Switch 3 is that it probably wouldn't really need to increase resolutions much if at all. 1080p DLSS Quality Mode is still all you'd need in handheld, and docked mode could absolutely stick with variations on 4K DLSS. So all the extra power could go to visuals.

That said, I am concerned that it could interfere with my hopes for the future of game lighting. Since Cyberpunk RT Overdrive came out I've been hoping that the tenth generation might be able to truly shift to full path-tracing for all games, with consoles on-par with a modern 7800X3D/4090 PC but with even better RT and ML acceleration. I don't know how realistic it would be for the Switch 3 to join that without some pretty awful compromises to resolution and framerate.
 
Maxrunner said:
I think the question being made is how you came to that conclusion based by "gamecom leaks". Gamecom leaks appear to be describing a pretty powerful machine judging by the demos mentioned.
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Just the impression on how several sources says it. The matrix demo alone pushes the Series S to run in a sub 1080p resolution. If they say that it run similar to those big box consoles, then I have this impression that 8N would not push enough teraflops to even render the demo in a "PS5" like visuals. Like others have said, current T239 in 8N would give you PS4 + dlss. I don't think a PS4 can run that demo at that level to be honest given the thermal constraint of the system.
 
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For the guys more familiar with the inner workings of RT than I, how likely are we to expect better/more ray-tracing in Switch 2 Vs the other systems? Are the RT cores it does have sufficient for decent RT in most games? Or is it still something we’ll see rarely, like in the other systems?

I understand that the CUDA cores are still utilised in the RT process and so is the CPU, so might they be the limiting factors?
 
kvetcha said:
Why bother spending millions designing a new console if the market doesn’t exist? This is a weird take.
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Induced demand can be done though. Even Apple singlehandedly created the Smartphone market we know today. Now we have apps created by anyone, not just a few dozen companies.
 
kvetcha said:
I'm more pushing back against the idea that Nintendo's entire take on Drake will be 'the same games but with higher resolution.'
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I'm sure there will be some gimmick one way or another, it's Nintendo after all.
Some possibilities:

1. A new controller (standard) -- as quoted from Miyamoto
2. AR VR -- from "fake" leaks
3. Scrolling shoulder buttons -- from patents
4. Camera -- from "fake" leaks and funcle

Or some tech may come back like Streetpass / Spotpass, Miiverse, 3D screen (unlikely), Dual Screen (unlikely), Download Play, etc.
What else is there in gaming though? The next big thing is AI.
 
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My Tulpa said:
ToTK proves Switch hardware isn’t holding back gameplay or grand designs or huge worlds. What the new hardware will do, is fix what they can’t do with current Switches. Get optimal performance and modern graphical features and IQ.
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I'm always going to push back against this idea.

When you chop down a tree, walk twenty metres in one direction and then come back to find the log has disappeared, that's the Switch holding the game back.
When you build a vehicle that reaches 90 miles an hour and the game ejects Link from it, that's the Switch holding the game back.
When you engage in the near infinite possibilities of physics in shrines, but then enter a cave and do binary, scripted puzzles regarding the water level that are limited and do not feel "real" within the world? Switch. Holding the game back.
All the light puzzles involving straight, unbreakable, infinitely extending shafts of light? Well, you know...

Let me further ask this: Do you think, if they had the power, these devs wouldn't consider destructible terrain or collapsible structures, given the interaction possibilities with the mechanics they've already created? That they wouldn't want to write the physics large on the landscape, to allow you to destroy dams in the sky to create rivers and lakes in the ground a kilometre below? That they wouldn't create a weather system in which oncoming storms can be seen from a distance?
All of these things would impact gameplay. The limit placed on open world Zelda is absolutely technical.


And that is focusing just on a very narrow definition of gameplay. The Zelda team care about how things look, about the atmosphere the game has.
Imagine you go to the Depths and you throw a light seed and walk away to explore. And those little beetle things come out to eat the seed, and as they get closer to it, you see their skittery shadows projected across the entire landscape. That's not nothing. The interplay between light and shadow seems to be a major idea behind a major component of the game.
And frankly, I think the game not diving to like 15fps at times when you use Ultrahand would count as a gameplay improvement in itself. It feels bad. And this is coming from a Switch-only player who rarely cares about these things. I don't even have a 4K tv.
 
oracion said:
@ILikeFeet @Thraktor
Why is TSMC 4N considered a strong candidate?
I think it was Samsung 8nm in data mining. The SoC needs to be redesigned, but is it possible?
The unit cost of TSMC 4N wafer is considerably higher than Samsung 8nm.
Sorry if my knowledge is incorrect.
Click to expand...
Probably answer already but
  • 8nm would need to consume more power and clock lower. It's been speculated, based on ampere gpus, that the ground floor is too high a power consumption. Clock any lower and you gain literally nothing
  • Data mining seems to imply that t239 content was copied from t234. For all intents and purposes, they're similar enough, same cpu, same gpu, just different core counts. You'd use the same code on a 4core ryzen/4cu rdna as you would a 16core ryzen/40cu rdna after all
  • They wouldn't need a redesign if it was made for 4N from the start. These are things that are decided on when they plan the chip, with simulations to back up their theories. They know what an 8N chip would do and would know I it was feasible or not before committing to prototyping
  • 5nm wafers are expensive, yes, but when you get more chips per wafer at a higher yield, you save money all the same
 
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