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StarTopic Future Nintendo Hardware & Technology Speculation & Discussion |ST| (Read the staff posts before commenting!)

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CypressFX said:



Damn, 8,6 TFLOPS APU is insane for handhelds.

Really hoping Nintendo will push its chip to the maximum 🤔
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There needs to be an asterisk next to 8.6 TFLOPs.


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Despite being fabricated using TSMC's 4 nm** process node, RDNA 3 doesn't seem to be a great GPU architecture.

** → a marketing nomenclature used by all foundry companies
Thraktor said:
At least the Z1 Extreme is, I'm not 100% sure about the Z1, but I'm guessing it's just a binned variant of it.
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Based on a Geekbench 5 benchmark released by Asus, since the Geekbench 5 benchmark mentioned that the GPU on the AMD Z1 has 2 WGPs (I believe Geekbench 5 mistakens CUs with WGPs), the AMD Z1 seems to closely align with the unannounced AMD Ryzen 5 7540U.
 
Teal'c said:
I still believe that this period is unlikely, or that getting there is the consequence of some serious problem with the development of the next Nintendo console.

Third party support of big (and graphically intensive) titles has been less in the last while, Ubisoft comes to mind whose only major title has been Mario + Rabbids Kingdom Battle, I know there's also Just Dance but that counts for little... of course I'm referring to Assassin's Creed.

All this is to say that 2 years of waiting (for third parties) to bring new titles is a long time. There might be a few impossible ports here and there, but those are still titles whose development has been going on for at least a year.

How many first-party titles would Nintendo have to produce to cover 2 years, so that the lack of these third-party titles would not be a burden? Even with remasters it's a long shot... at least the way I see it.
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Thanks for your input. And yeah, I’ve been asking myself: what about 3rd parties? When did they receive dev kits? Was it a year ago? If so, then 2025 would be an ideal time to release with a strong software lineup.

Maybe Nintendo hasn’t given us their latter half of 2023 because they are still playing around with the software calendar

I’m #Team2023, but I think Nintendo would rather splash with a dying Switch than ruin the successor’s launch

Gotdatmoneyy said:
Naw. Though I've been on 2024 for a while now. We'll just have to wait and see. The investor meeting in may should shed some light.
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Assuming they say anything
 
ziggyrivers said:
Thanks for your input. And yeah, I’ve been asking myself: what about 3rd parties? When did they receive dev kits? Was it a year ago? If so, then 2025 would be an ideal time to release with a strong software lineup.

Maybe Nintendo hasn’t given us their latter half of 2023 because they are still playing around with the software calendar

I’m #Team2023, but I think Nintendo would rather splash with a dying Switch than ruin the successor’s launch


Assuming they say anything
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I'm a little confused. Where's all this stuff about third-parties coming from? Is it actually likely that third-parties won't have Drake games during launch? I can only assume you were referring to the article that TSR3 shared, but no one else seems to be talking about it.
 
ziggyrivers said:
Thanks for your input. And yeah, I’ve been asking myself: what about 3rd parties? When did they receive dev kits? Was it a year ago? If so, then 2025 would be an ideal time to release with a strong software lineup.

Maybe Nintendo hasn’t given us their latter half of 2023 because they are still playing around with the software calendar

I’m #Team2023, but I think Nintendo would rather splash with a dying Switch than ruin the successor’s launch
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The most plausible situation of dev-kits, in my opinion, is what some have already speculated.
Developers just need something that simulates the (more or less final) specifications so that they can put the finishing touches as soon as they receive dev-kits.
As far as we know, some titles are ready and we know that the early ones do not take full advantage of the console.

For the release I agree, Switch will stay on the market until everything is perfect to launch the successor, so maybe this H2 2023 yet to be defined, is attributable to the need to still have to get things organised.

No need to rush things
 
Stefan51278 said:
Nintendo DS was also the famous third pillar. BigN was not sure about the success and even launched the Gameboy Micro parallel to what would become their most sold device ever😅
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the funny part is they weren't even lying at the point
the Gameboy IRIS was still planned then iirc
in fact if it wasn't for the iPhone, it probably would have been announced at a minimum
 
eye0h said:
Doubt this means anything but 0.0
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Check the comments. There's also a Vita on the page as well. 🤣

And the exact image of the Switch that's there was found to be a stock image titled "Portable game." So whoever put the graphics for that page together probably just googled "portable video game systems" and used whatever images they thought looked good, whether they're relevant to that chip or not. 😅
 
chocolate_supra said:
Check the comments. There's also a Vita on the page as well. 🤣

And the exact image of the Switch that's there was found to be a stock image titled "Portable game." So whoever put the graphics for that page together probably just googled "portable video game systems" and used whatever images they thought looked good, whether they're relevant to that chip or not. 😅
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Yeah that makes sense LOL
 
Even before these new AMD chips were ever even in discussion, I have been wondering what the hell is the constant hold up with Nintendo and Switch 2 and it has made me consistently wonder if Nintendo could have abandoned Nvidia for AMD a few years back and that's why the Switch 2 is refusing the materialize after so long. Would explain so much. I also know there is ZERO evidence of this. Nvidia is notoriously greedy in which why Microsoft and Sony don't use Nvidia chips in their consoles and Nintendo is notoriously cheap. Definitely not a very good match. Was surprised when they went with Nvidia with the original Switch but also AMD didn't have a good mobile product on the market at that time and now they have a killer product. It wouldn't surprise me if Nintendo at least considered ditching Nvidia in favor of AMD. I'm betting they could get a better deal with AMD. Again none of this is likely and I'm still assuming the Switch 2 will feature an Nvidia chip. This is more of a what if scenario.

I also wonder if Nintendo will release the Switch 2 (again late 2024/early 2025 going off of Nate's prediction) and enter the market with a handheld that is just really outdated upon release. Nintendo doesn't chase graphics anymore but it would be a huge shame if the Switch 2 is basically just a Steam Deck when the Steam Deck will be very outdated and expired by then lol.
 
Stefan51278 said:
If I was the producer of the SwitchTwo-Hardware I would increase the ratio of the difference in clock frequencies for handheld and docked modes. Go for 720p in handheld-mode and get away with a smaller battery, lower memory-clock and have more space in the tablet for cooling the chip in docked mode. 20-25W TDP and higher resolutions in docked mode should be possible with these changes. This would also make a SwitchTwo Lite easier without a die shrink and when you do the shrink in 2026 you can make the heatsink small again to save money.

The battery was really big in the original Switch and the cooler very small. Adding a second heatpipe and doubling the heatsink could increase the possible TDP.

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I agree. They can source a physically smaller battery with as much capacity or more, freeing up a little space for better heat management, and clock it low for similar power draw in portable mode to the Mariko X1. I still believe screen resolution will be 720p, probably OLED, and 4K output targeted for docked, we very well could see docked clock speeds being 3x that of portable.
 
Kevin said:
I also wonder if Nintendo will release the Switch 2 (again late 2024/early 2025 going off of Nate's prediction) and enter the market with a handheld that is just really outdated upon release. Nintendo doesn't chase graphics anymore but it would be a huge shame if the Switch 2 is basically just a Steam Deck when the Steam Deck will be very outdated and expired by then lol.
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people keep saying this, but there isn't going to be a better option. all the "better" options also blow out the TDP because that's how you get tangible improvements
 
Kevin said:
Even before these new AMD chips were ever even in discussion, I have been wondering what the hell is the constant hold up with Nintendo and Switch 2 and it has made me consistently wonder if Nintendo could have abandoned Nvidia for AMD a few years back and that's why the Switch 2 is refusing the materialize after so long. Would explain so much. I also know there is ZERO evidence of this. Nvidia is notoriously greedy in which why Microsoft and Sony don't use Nvidia chips in their consoles and Nintendo is notoriously cheap. Definitely not a very good match. Was surprised when they went with Nvidia with the original Switch but also AMD didn't have a good mobile product on the market at that time and now they have a killer product. It wouldn't surprise me if Nintendo at least considered ditching Nvidia in favor of AMD. I'm betting they could get a better deal with AMD. Again none of this is likely and I'm still assuming the Switch 2 will feature an Nvidia chip. This is more of a what if scenario.
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Does AMD have a custom Arm based SoC that AMD can offer to Nintendo that's comparable to what Nvidia can offer? And can AMD develop a custom API comparable to NVN?

Samsung's GPU IP licencing agreement with AMD doesn't allow Samsung to use AMD's GPU IP in areas where Samsung competes with AMD. So Nintendo can't work with Samsung.
 
I bet Nintendo never thought they would ever have someone who makes it their life mission to sleuth job listings lol hats off to Doctre to finding actually legitimate info on the hard to track next Switch.
 
NintenDuvo said:
I bet Nintendo never thought they would ever have someone who makes it their life mission to sleuth job listings lol hats off to Doctre to finding actually legitimate info on the hard to track next Switch.
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Those from yore remember when Nirolak used to do the same before retiring. It's a very effective way to get insights.
 
NintenDuvo said:
I do recall that name Nirolak, was he on Neogaf?
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He was a mod on GAF and was also a mod for a very brief sting on Era iirc. Last thing he did before retiring was reveal, through Linkedin profiles (Same as Doctre), that Avengers would be a Online GaaS/Co-Op before the game was even announced (He was also the one who discovered that an Avengers and GoTG games were being developed by CD and Eidos).
 
Stefan51278 said:
If I was the producer of the SwitchTwo-Hardware I would increase the ratio of the difference in clock frequencies for handheld and docked modes. Go for 720p in handheld-mode and get away with a smaller battery, lower memory-clock and have more space in the tablet for cooling the chip in docked mode.
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The base Switch already had the GPU clock as low as it could go before you stopped actually saving any power, and the memory clock in handheld mode was pathetic. You couldn't use the same chip and save more power, it just wasn't possible.

Nintendo quite smartly went with a GPU clock ratio that was very close to the pixel ratio between 720p and 1080p. This is ideal for development. However, the memory clock in handheld mode made the bandwidth problem so bad, that Nintendo increased the handheld GPU clocks to compensate (because it was cheaper, battery wise, than bringing the memory clock up).

Unlike Series S|X, every (non-Lite) Switch owner has both performance profiles available to them, and they run from a single game binary without a restart. Nintendo has to do much more than just maximize battery life in one mode and power in the other. The knock against Xbox isn't that it's not possible to squeeze Series X games down to S, the complaint is that the power gap is large enough that it is effectively a second port. Nintendo will want to avoid that, both for 3rd parties, but also for themselves.

Nintendo is co-designing the SOC this time, they're not stuck just setting clocks on an existing chip. They'll start with a performance target and a battery life target, design the chip to get its power curve "sweet spot" as close to that as possible, within budget. They'll set the docked power to maximize ease of development, and then they'll tweak clocks afterward as actual production samples and actual games get made.

It seems likely that Nintendo will be as conservative as possible with handheld clocks, because more power can be added later, but with no die shrink or major battery tech on the horizon, battery life can't be extended as easily after launch And with heatsinks and fans contributing considerably to shipping weight - and to noise, which Nintendo seems nicely aware of - once Nintendo hits their docked power target, I doubt they'll move very far either, being conservative to keep costs down, and system reliability high.

In short - I think Nintendo will do basically what you say, but I don't think it will have the results you expect.
 
ILikeFeet said:
people keep saying this, but there isn't going to be a better option. all the "better" options also blow out the TDP because that's how you get tangible improvements
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Depends on the process node. On a comparable node, Nvidias tech is going to get as good or better performance per watt.
 
Dakhil said:
Does AMD have a custom Arm based SoC that AMD can offer to Nintendo that's comparable to what Nvidia can offer? And can AMD develop a custom API comparable to NVN?

Samsung's GPU IP licencing agreement with AMD doesn't allow Samsung to use AMD's GPU IP in areas where Samsung competes with AMD. So Nintendo can't work with Samsung.
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I really don't have the answers here. Not a tech guy. At any rate it was just a thought. A what if of sorts. Something is keeping the Switch 2 from happening but it could be as simple as Nintendo wants to milk the Switch for many many years.
 
Dakhil said:
I don't think Nintendo's going to have Drake run at up to 30 W at the very least in handheld mode. I think Nintendo still cares about battery life.

I think Drake's going to be identical to the Tegra X1 in the sense that the max TDP is probably going to be 15 W.
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I think we can safely assume that 2h30 is the absolute minimum Nintendo will accept for battery life. Would say an average of 3 hours+ is the target. In the end they are still selling a gaming console targeted for kids. Educational experts recommend to 2 hours of gaming to be OK per day, so the console should hold at least enough battery for one whole session.
ROG Ally and Steamdeck are targeting working people, so you can assume that 1 hour is the target as it should cover the normal commute time. After the commute the person can charge the unit anyway. Beside a grown up person can also easily carry the weight of an additional battery.
 
We're probably gonna end up with 1080p textures for cod.


If I was the producer of the SwitchTwo-Hardware I would increase the ratio of the difference in clock frequencies for handheld and docked modes. Go for 720p in handheld-mode and get away with a smaller battery, lower memory-clock and have more space in the tablet for cooling the chip in docked mode. 20-25W TDP and higher resolutions in docked mode should be possible with these changes. This would also make a SwitchTwo Lite easier without a die shrink and when you do the shrink in 2026 you can make the heatsink small again to save money.

The battery was really big in the original Switch and the cooler very small. Adding a second heatpipe and doubling the heatsink could increase the possible TDP.

What you're saying makes more sense for a switch lite 2. Smaller battery, smaller memory clocks and 720p resolution. But for the base hybrid model, Nintendo is better off with the full speed RAM memory clocks (lpddr5 or lpddr5x) and at least the same size battery as current hybrid models. I don't mind a 720p OLED screen personally. 88GB/s handheld would be ideal for handheld, and 102 to 133 GB/s for docked. Perhaps 68GB /s is fine for handheld if we are using 720p.



bandwidth will be a bottleneck again again this generation.
oldpuck said:
The base Switch already had the GPU clock as low as it could go before you stopped actually saving any power, and the memory clock in handheld mode was pathetic. You couldn't use the same chip and save more power, it just wasn't possible.
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Was the memory speed in handheld really pathetic, or was it so much the memory in docked mode (only a 20% increase)?

Going back to your second paragraph, genuinely curious how increasing handheld clock GPU speeds makes up for low bandwidth in handheld mode.
ILikeFeet said:
they exist, but you'll get just over an hour with them

z1_extreme_z1_ryzen_1080p.jpg


these numbers were with the 30W mode. so reducing the resolution to 720p and capping the frame rate will help with battery life a lot
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We don't know the CPU speeds.. hmm.

They also admitted that lpddr5 RAM is the bottleneck too, and not the CPU (or at least for the base Z1).
 
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ziggyrivers said:
Thanks for your input. And yeah, I’ve been asking myself: what about 3rd parties? When did they receive dev kits? Was it a year ago? If so, then 2025 would be an ideal time to release with a strong software lineup.

Maybe Nintendo hasn’t given us their latter half of 2023 because they are still playing around with the software calendar

I’m #Team2023, but I think Nintendo would rather splash with a dying Switch than ruin the successor’s launch


Assuming they say anything
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Nintendo could have send final devkit for Switch sucessor for it closer third party partner like Square Enix, Ubisoft, Capcom, the rest she could sent later, Nintendo internal studios and it subsidiaries like Retro Studios, Monolith Soft must already have the final devkit for Switch sucessor, i recall before Switch release, Capcom sugestões Nintendo to increase Switch RAM memory to 4GB.
 
ShadowFox08 said:
Was the memory speed in handheld really pathetic, or was it so much the memory in docked mode (only a 20% increase)?
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I mean, it was both. Switch is very bandwidth constrained, any reduction in the memory clock just makes it worse. Thought Nintendo may have made some perf profiles where it kept the MC at full clock in handheld? I should double check
ShadowFox08 said:
Going back to your second paragraph, genuinely curious how increasing handheld clock GPU speeds makes up for low bandwidth in handheld mode.
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Push GPU further, you reduce time spent rendering, you can afford more latency. There is a limit of course, because if you can't keep the GPU fed, latency/idle periods increase.
 
invwar said:
I think we can safely assume that 2h30 is the absolute minimum Nintendo will accept for battery life. Would say an average of 3 hours+ is the target. In the end they are still selling a gaming console targeted for kids. Educational experts recommend to 2 hours of gaming to be OK per day, so the console should hold at least enough battery for one whole session.
ROG Ally and Steamdeck are targeting working people, so you can assume that 1 hour is the target as it should cover the normal commute time. After the commute the person can charge the unit anyway. Beside a grown up person can also easily carry the weight of an additional battery.
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I think Nintendo's going to continue targeting working adults who grew up playing Nintendo games as well with Nintendo's new hardware, especially if how Nintendo marketed the Nintendo Switch is any indication.

But anyway, I don't know if Nintendo can maintain the bare minimum of 2 hours and 30 minutes of battery life in handheld mode for Nintendo's new hardware if Nintendo allows Drake to run at up to 30 W.
 
Giancarlo said:
Nintendo always aim to release they consoles at afordable prices, they cant price they next hardware at a price that make it impossible for families to buy they consoles and sell at lost
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If they used it, it would be out of price for most gamers too lol.

It wouldn’t retail for less than 700 unless sold at like a loss.


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Dakhil said:
I think Nintendo's going to continue targeting working adults who grew up playing Nintendo games as well with Nintendo's new hardware, especially if how Nintendo marketed the Nintendo Switch is any indication.

But anyway, I don't know if Nintendo can maintain the bare minimum of 2 hours and 30 minutes of battery life in handheld mode for Nintendo's new hardware if Nintendo allows Drake to run at up to 30 W.
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Of course they also target this group, but Nintendo will be at least evenly targeted to kids. So it has to fulfil the needs of a family. Parents wont be happy, if the kid is already complaining after 1 hour, but 2 hours can be marketing wise as educational recommended marketed and is also still a good enough game time for parents.
So the battery has to cover that, so there won't be a 30W mode, if the battery is not huge enough to bring over 2 hours of gameplay.
 
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Concernt said:
It's unlikely for the UI or gimmicks to change much, if at all.

It's mostly to have games that look better.
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Gimmick not sure what was gimmick in the past, so I don't think it will be something gimmick anyway. But I'm all in for innovation. This drives the industry, better graphics not so much anymore. Just a little.
 
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Stefan51278 said:
The battery doesn't have to double if you go for low clocks and low power in handheld-mode. Switch doesn't need the battery in docked mode.
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The way the Switch works and why it is seamless to dock and un-dock is because of it always running off battery power.

Kevin said:
I really don't have the answers here. Not a tech guy. At any rate it was just a thought. A what if of sorts. Something is keeping the Switch 2 from happening but it could be as simple as Nintendo wants to milk the Switch for many many years.
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Nintendo are that company to sit on finished games for awhile, so the reason we haven't gotten Switch 2 info directly from them is more to do with their roll out plans than the hardware not being finished or less likely (a switch to a different chip manufacturer altogether)...
 
Tbh I'm hoping they are not artificially limiting the TDP just to fit some battery life target that no one really cares about. Particularly for a device that can be docked at any time and continue gaming. Feels like such an edge concern these days with how people have been conditioned by smart phones and how quickly you can charge devices on a tiny usb-c plug.
 
Giancarlo said:
8.6 TeraFlops? that nearly the techinal/graphical performance of PS5 that is 10 Teraflops, i dont see Nintendo using a high profile/end chip such as this,
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that number also assumes the gpu is running at full tilt. what is the cpu even doing at that gpu clock? probably very little, i.e, not actually running a game

Instro said:
Tbh I'm hoping they are not artificially limiting the TDP just to fit some battery life target that no one really cares about. Particularly for a device that can be docked at any time and continue gaming. Feels like such an edge concern these days with how people have been conditioned by smart phones and how quickly you can charge devices on a tiny usb-c plug.
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they absolutely are. Nintendo doesn't cater to power users, they cater to the widest possible audience
 
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