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StarTopic Future Nintendo Hardware & Technology Speculation & Discussion |ST| (Read the staff posts before commenting!)

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Concernt said:
Better assets take more time to make, this distends development times. They may elect to take advantage of the hardware in other ways, like maintaining their current level of fidelity in order to reach exceptionally high resolutions and steady framerates.
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Nintendo isn’t going to release a next gen system and not push it to its limits. As with any jump in power from one Nintendo system to the next Nintendo will be at the forefront in terms of pushing visuals for the hardware.
My Tulpa said:
How dare you, sir.



Why would Nintendo want to position this as a successor? Rather than an upgrade model meant to lengthen the lifecycle of the Switch?

If by "soft successor with a long cross gen" you mean in practice it's going to be like iterative iphones type relationships, i suppose you could look at it that way.

But im pretty sure all big Nintendo games being revealed in 2025 are still going to run on the OLED and Lite. No good reason they shouldnt/wouldnt.



In terms of hardware power differentials, sure. But hardware differentials dont dictate how a console is positioned/marketed.

I just dont think Nintendo will use it more than taking current Switch Tx1+ profile games and having them output with much better graphics/performance with the new model. No reason not continue to still target, and release, the variable 540p-1080p, variable 30fps profiles in their game/services development.

The next console after this Drake one can be the one to break away their game development focus like that, im sure. No reason to do that now with how insanely high Switch gaming engagement still is now. Got a lot of life left in it, longer than a usual lifecycle (as Nintendo has said many times). Drake will certainly help keep that engagement high.
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Bookmark this, it‘s going to be a full next gen system and while some games will be cross gen, Nintendo will make exclusives built for the hardware.
 
Skittzo said:
Ah then I (thankfully) missed that nonsense.

You're conflating rumor with speculation. There is a rumor that it is made on the Samsung 5nm node, the speculation based on that rumor (and on extremely dubious clock speeds found in a mostly unrelated file of the NVN leak) suggests it might get somewhere close to XSS GPU.

That is not a rumor, that is someone using a few rumors to try and come up with a possible outcome scenario. There is a difference.
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Doesn't matter. The "rumor" has become the narrative of numerous videos now. Instead of being treated as a possibility, it's now an expectation.
 
Cuzizkool said:
With these new power estimates based on 5LPP, put me in the “1080p LCD” camp. 7”, no frills, LCD. It would definitely reduce the delta between handheld mode (now 1080p, was 720p), and the new docked mode (now 4K, was 1080p). Keeping the differences between handheld and docked smaller is pretty beneficial.

Now, when “Nintendo is gonna Nintendo”, comes in 2026 when they release Drake “OLED/HDR/VRR/QRSTUV“, I’m guessing.
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I don't know why a 1080p OLED display couldn't be used when most 1080p displays on smartphones are OLED displays. I don't think the price difference between LCD and OLED for a 1080p display is very drastic.

Concernt said:
Thus "tend" 😆

Plus, hey, DSi XL existed, technically.
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I did say "generally true" as well. :p
 
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NateDrake said:
Mike Odyssey is using the thread, as well.

A week's worth of content based on whatever is posted here.

Thought... didn't they claim it was in mass production? This information conflicts with that.
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It isn't even like they're doing anything interesting with the info. Nintendo Prime is literally just reading out posts it's insane. A week ago he was asking for people to write his videos for him.
 
Bosintang said:
I agree it's bizarre, but I'm thinking that 2D Mario or fucking Donkey Kong will be announced around June.
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I think that's possible.

But that they'll launch with or after the T239 REDACTED DRAKE DLSS MODEL PLUS DELUXE.
 
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Skittzo said:
You're conflating rumor with speculation. There is a rumor that it is made on the Samsung 5nm node, the speculation based on that rumor (and on extremely dubious clock speeds found in a mostly unrelated file of the NVN leak) suggests it might get somewhere close to XSS GPU.

That is not a rumor, that is someone using a few rumors to try and come up with a possible outcome scenario. There is a difference.
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I think that Tweet is speculation.
 
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MusicProposition said:
what excites me about this (if it’s true) is that this means a 2023 launch right? I don’t think they’d start producing the chips now if they’re planning to release it next year
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It would suggest that a release later this year is possible. What is curious is the guy that "leaked" this info is not a gaming guy. If you scroll through his Twitter feed, it centers around the mobile market predominately. If this was a gaming YouTuber, I would be very skeptical that he is just speculating looking for clicks, but being that his focus is on the mobile market seems like this leak could very well be plausible. This wasn't a vague statement, like saying Samsung is the manufacture or that it will be manufactured on something better than 8nm but giving not further info.

NateDrake said:
The headline was, "Nintendo Switch 2 in Mass Production" and claimed the chip was in full production.



That doesn't make it a rumor. It makes it a possibility based on rumored specs and speculation.
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Its just another day in the life of a YouTuber. They need headlines that get people to click. If you watch the video he declares that much of this is speculation on his part. To be fair though, if this "leaker" is legit and has learned of a new Tegra 5LPP chip for Nintendo, this is most likely Drake and his sources likely come from the manufacturing side of the things, seeing as how his focus is not on gaming but in the mobile space.
 
Dakhil said:
I don't know why a 1080p OLED display couldn't be used when most 1080 displays on smartphones are OLED displays. I don't think the price difference between LCD and OLED for a 1080p display is very drastic.


I did say "generally true" as well. :p
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Ah, it does tend to be generally true. 😂

Re: displays.

Yeah. Especially since it would be a rigid OLED panel, 1080p seems reasonable.
 
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My take, if Nintendo can get 80% of their games (including 3rd parties) to appear to run native 720p portable and 1080p docked with solid 60 fps frame rate it will be a great thing for the platform
 
Concernt said:
If battery life is a concern and they are sourcing other components from Samsung, an OLED display would make a lot of sense.
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Dakhil said:
I don't know why a 1080p OLED display couldn't be used when most 1080 displays on smartphones are OLED displays. I don't think the price difference between LCD and OLED for a 1080p display is very drastic.


I did say "generally true" as well. :p
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I look forward to being wrong. 😛

NateDrake said:
Doesn't matter. The "rumor" has become the narrative of numerous videos now. Instead of being treated as a possibility, it's now an expectation.
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Already? I subscribe to a lot of Nintendo YouTubers and I haven’t seen one yet. I must be missing some. Time for a YouTube dive!
 
Shish said:
maybe i overdone to use drama. anyway now I'll stop considering that maybe I don't know this topic very well and say other nonsense, so I won't bother anyone anymore.
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Feel free to keep posting. This thread is usually pretty good about bringing folks up to speed, but sometime when there is a flurry of new speculation, newcomers to the thread can get caught in the crossfire. No drama, feel free to hang, stay as long as you like.
 
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My Tulpa said:
In terms of hardware power differentials, sure. But hardware differentials dont dictate how a console is positioned/marketed.

I just dont think Nintendo will use it more than taking current Switch Tx1+ profile games and having them output with much better graphics/performance with the new model. No reason not continue to still target, and release, the variable 540p-1080p, variable 30fps profiles in their game/services development.

The next console after this Drake one can be the one to break away their game development focus like that, im sure. No reason to do that now with how insanely high Switch gaming engagement still is now. Got a lot of life left in it, longer than a usual lifecycle (as Nintendo has said many times). Drake will certainly help keep that engagement high.
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Of course there's reasons not to keep supporting Switch for the lifetime of Drake. It would significantly hamper their ability to leverage the new hardware features.

Switch releases will continue into Drake's cycle, as is warranted by the continued success of that system, but the design of Drake clearly signals that that's not all Nintendo will release. If all Nintendo aspired to was to continue making Switch games with a higher performance tier available, that would have been reflected in a chip that was much closer in capabilities to what they're already using, without the need for a next gen version of NVN.
 
Dekuman said:
My take, if Nintendo can get 80% of their games (including 3rd parties) to appear to run native 720p portable and 1080p docked with solid 60 fps frame rate it will be a great thing for the platform
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My take is that is horribly pessimistic.
 
Concernt said:
1: HDR, but only if the display on the system supports it.

2: Themes.

3: Improved home menu (not a major redesign, just move some icons around like All Software being to the far left, filled-in icons for coloured applets to match the NSO icon.)

4: Two game resume, pretty please.

5: Improved Quick Home with Bluetooth, controller pairing, friends list and recording options. Oh, and invites.

6: Improved applets, like feature parity between the NSO Applet and the mobile phone NSO App. Including system voice chat, as an option.

7: Games can update and download even when a game is using communication features.


I have fairly few complaints when it comes to Nintendo Switch OS, at least the consumer facing UI.
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I like your list. I would add the ability to twitch/youtube stream what you're playing (but I doubt Nintendo does this) or at least the ability to quick share gameplay highlights via twitter/youtube/etc. I want the same capabilities for sharing that Xbox/PS have.
 
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NateDrake said:
That doesn't make it a rumor. It makes it a possibility based on rumored specs and speculation.
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Eh, its just quibbling on semantics.

Rumor is just speculation that's spread around as if its based on verified evidence, but still unverifiable.

Which is exactly what "The new Switch seems to be close to a Series S tier type GPU performance system + DLSS, when docked" is doing, acting like.
 
My Tulpa said:
Eh, its just quibbling on semantics.

Rumor is just speculation that's spread around as if its based on verified evidence, but still unverifiable.

Which is exactly what "The new Switch seems to be close to a Series S tier type GPU performance system + DLSS, when docked" is doing, acting like.
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A rumour doesn't even need verified evidence.

Rumour-
a currently circulating story or report of uncertain or doubtful truth.

All it needs is one person saying it more than once to be "circulated".

Pure semantics. 😜
 
a 1080 OLED can't be that expensive vs a 720p or LCD variant, especially if they are fucking with Samsung with the majority of the components. unless it's a newer screen tech it has to be OLED, they've seen the positive feedback on the SWOLED and surely won't be taking a step back here.
 
Bosintang said:
I personally expect it to yield visuals close but clearly inferior to what the series S does, even factoring DLSS.
Image quality could sometimes be better, but there's more to visuals than just resolution.
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Sounds a bit more realistic.
Skittzo said:
There is no such rumor.

People are getting ahead of themselves with regard to speculation based on bits and pieces of verified info and unverified info. As per usual.
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Thanks. Yeah all of this sounded a bit too good to be true. I guess I'm expecting something more in line with a PS4 + DLSS. Being more comparable to a Series S + DLSS just seems kind of hopeful thinking. Would like to be pleasantly surprised though. :)
 
HankyPanky said:
a 1080 OLED can't be that expensive vs a 720p or LCD variant, especially if they are fucking with Samsung with the majority of the components. unless it's a newer screen tech it has to be OLED, they've seen the positive feedback on the SWOLED and surely won't be taking a step back here.
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It's not about expense in this case and more about what makes more sense, both for pixel to resolution ratio and battery life. There's still a lot of QHD (720p~) monitors in use to this day (and even the Steam Deck uses a variant of this), so I don't expect the Switch 2/Drake/etc. to change this.
 
ArchedThunder said:
Nintendo isn’t going to release a next gen system and not push it to its limits. As with any jump in power from one Nintendo system to the next Nintendo will be at the forefront in terms of pushing visuals for the hardware.

Bookmark this, it‘s going to be a full next gen system and while some games will be cross gen, Nintendo will make exclusives built for the hardware.
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Bookmark this, for the entire lifespan of this Drake model...that is until a more powerful and/or more different Nintendo console is released...over 90% of its Nintendo gaming library will also be the same gaming library found on the OLED/Lite models.
 
My Tulpa said:
Bookmark this, for the entire lifespan of this Drake model...that is until a more powerful and/or more different Nintendo console is released...over 90% of its Nintendo gaming library will also be the same gaming library found on the OLED/Lite models.
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Lmao, that’s not happening.
 
Mendinso said:
It's not about expense in this case and more about what makes more sense, both for pixel to resolution ratio and battery life. There's still a lot of QHD (720p~) monitors in use to this day (and even the Steam Deck uses a variant of this), so I don't expect the Switch 2/Drake/etc. to change this.
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720p isn't QHD.

1440p is QHD.

Meanwhile the segment Switch is in as regards technology, is mobile phones and tablets, where 1080p and higher is the norm.

-Sent from my 1440p 6" OLED HDR smartphone from 2020.
 
Shish said:
damn I have to be careful using certain comparisons considering that I have triggered certain users.
anyway I'll stop here before it becomes a drama and wait for the official announcement of Nintendo on switch 2 and on the price
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Is the drama in the room with us?
 
Shish said:
$400 is too much, look what happened to the 3ds when it cost $100 more than the ds at launch, the launch was a disaster and they had to drop the price to $169, if they had listened to Reggie the 3ds would have sold better
www.nintendolife.com

Reggie Fils-Aimé Wanted The 3DS To Launch At $199, But Was Rebuffed

"With 3DS, we did not let the poor sales performance linger"
www.nintendolife.com www.nintendolife.com
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*150 to 250 was an increase of 66%. 300 to 400 is an increase of 33%.
*From DS to 3DS, inflation was about 17%. Since Switch's launch it's over 23% and growing.
*You're linking to an article where Reggie suggests a 33% price increase from the previous gen, just like Switch going to 400 would be.
Bosintang said:
I clearly see the difference between 720p and 1080p even on a small screen. But I do not find the difference significant enough to be anything else than a second order issue, and I'd take 720p/60fps any day over 1080p/30fps.
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It's not like the screen will make this difference, since the goal has been to match frame rate in docked and undocked. A 60fps docked game that has to make the choice would still be 720p60 if need be, though DLSS makes that necessity less likely.
My Tulpa said:
Why would Nintendo want to position this as a successor? Rather than an upgrade model meant to lengthen the lifecycle of the Switch?
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Why ever? Why is PS5 a PS5 and not PS4 Pro Pro, or Xbox Series not Xbox One Plus? If it walks like a successor and quacks like a successor, they'd probably be doing more harm than good by trying to insist it's still just a fancy version of the 2017 device.
 
Kevin said:
Sounds a bit more realistic.


Thanks. Yeah all of this sounded a bit too good to be true. I guess I'm expecting something more in line with a PS4 + DLSS. Being more comparable to a Series S + DLSS just seems kind of hopeful thinking. Would like to be pleasantly surprised though. :)
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For what it's worth, I think it's fair to expect something along the lines of "practically a Series S", in terms of the end result you get after all the tricks in Drake's book. In raw grunt? Sure, the GPU is up to speed, and maybe even RT performance is comparable (given that Nvidia's RT performance far exceeds AMD's), but for other things such as CPU and memory bandwidth, a portable device is (obviously) much more restrained.

I think PS4 + DLSS level (I'm assuming you mean Docked?) is way too pessimistic, unrealistically so, even. With what we know, our baseline (using Switch clocks) already is something akin to a PS4 Pro, but mesh that up with a much more modern architecture + DLSS... and then you get what is "practically" a Series S-tier console.

Now, if you mean Handheld, than yep, I think it's fair to expect a highly optimized end-of-life PS4-tier (aka GoW of HZD) on the handheld - maybe even running at higher / more stable framerates, if we can be a bit more optimistic.
 
My expectations for Drake in comparison to Series S is kinda like how the One X and Series S compare for cross-gen; One X (Drake, in this case) typically runs at a higher resolution, but the Series S typically has more advanced visual features/higher framerate.
 
lattjeful said:
My expectations for Drake in comparison to Series S is kinda like how the One X and Series S compare for cross-gen; One X (Drake, in this case) typically runs at a higher resolution, but the Series S typically has more advanced visual features/higher framerate.
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Drake is much more of a portable Gen 9 console than a beefy Gen 8 console. Like how Switch can run games Xbox 360 couldn't, because it's more akin to Xbox One than Xbox 360.
 
Concernt said:
My take is that is horribly pessimistic.
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Sorry if I'm a downer but in a pessimist 😞

my feeling is 80% would still be much higher than their current ratio on Switch.

My thinking is games.3rd parties can lock down at 60fps 1440p or 4k on current gen consoles Switch 2 should be able to handle at 30fps or match 60fps with visual cuts and leaning in on dlss. I think frame rate is a much bigger deal this gen.for multi Plat games.
 
Concernt said:
720p isn't QHD.

1440p is QHD.
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Oops, I got my terminology mixed up. I was intending to use Quarter HD (which is HD just not quite Full 1080p), not Quad HD.

Also...

Concernt said:
Meanwhile the segment Switch is in as regards technology, is mobile phones and tablets, where 1080p and higher is the norm.

-Sent from my 1440p 6" OLED HDR smartphone from 2020.
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I'm going to be blunt, but I could do without the snippiness and passive aggressiveness in this reply?
 
Dekuman said:
Sorry if I'm a downer but in a pessimist 😞

my feeling is 80% would still be much higher than their current ratio on Switch.

My thinking is games.3rd parties can lock down at 60fps 1440p or 4k on current gen consoles Switch 2 should be able to handle at 30fps or match 60fps with visual cuts and leaning in on dlss. I think frame rate is a much bigger deal this gen.for multi Plat games.
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I think visual cutbacks are likely, and definitely a comparatively dire internal resolution, but personally I'm not worried about it. I'm confident DLSS can make it impress. Even if it has to pull out every trick in the book, if it can get a handful of games 4K on Xbox Series X to output in 4K, even with effects cut back and a 720p internal resolution using DLSS Ultra Performance Mode, it will still definitely be competitive both to third party developers that see that it can, with work, run Gen 9 games with passable image quality, and to the public that doesn't think that far and just goes "Wow, 4K Elden Ring and it's the size of a toaster waffle!".
 
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Mendinso said:
Oops, I got my terminology mixed up. I was intending to use Quarter HD (which is HD just not quite Full 1080p), not Quad HD.

Also...



I'm going to be blunt, but I could do without the snippiness in this reply?
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qHD, Quarter HD, is a quarter the pixels of FHD, Full HD, or 1080p. That's 560p, which is considerably less than 720p, and the resolution present on PlayStation Vita in 2011.

It's 2023, FHD is perfectly reasonable, and qHD is largely abandoned as a panel standard.
 
Concernt said:
qHD, Quarter HD, is a quarter the pixels of FHD, Full HD, or 1080p. That's 560p, which is considerably less than 720p, and the resolution present on PlayStation Vita in 2011.

It's 2023, FHD is perfectly reasonable, and qHD is largely abandoned as a panel standard.
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My understanding was that anything designated under 1080p was now put under the qHD. I apologize if I'm in the wrong there. That said, you're snippiness to my replies is still showing and I absolutely do NOT appreciate this.
 
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Zedark said:
Does anyone have a (link to a) map/explanation of the different process nodes and how they compare in terms of density and performance (in a quantitative sense)? Might be useful for perspective in case this person is legit (don't know of them, but I don't follow the mobile phone scene at all, so that means literally nothing).

Edit: Also, how does 5LPP compare to 5LPE? I can't find even a mention of 5LPP anywhere on Google, let alone solid numbers...

Edit 2: This might help:
wikichip-samsung-q2-2022-roadmap.png


I've found 5LPE roughly matches 7nm TSMC, as well.
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To tack on a couple more charts...
From July 2022:
samsung-density-14nm-3nm.png


From September 2022:
tsmc-5nm-3nm-density-q2-2022.png

Lelouch0612 said:
Does the 5LPP node offer an easy die-shrink path ?

I know Samsung 8nm did not and it was one of issue with that node (in terms of future revisions).
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So from news post back in 2018, Samsung did claim easy migration from 5LPE to 4LPE/4LPP:
"4LPE/LPP (4nm Low Power Early/Plus): The use of highly mature and verified FinFET technology will be extended to the 4nm process. As the last generation of FinFET, 4nm provides a smaller cell size, improved performance, and faster ramp-up to the stable level of yield by adopting proven 5LPE, supporting easy migration."

But as can be seen charts posted earlier, 4LPP doesn't offer huge power savings over 5LPE/LPP. The main draw's potential cost savings through the density improvements, I suppose.

...but we're talking about 4LPE/4LPP here, which has a reputation for garbage yields. And recent proclamations by Samsung of yields improving to 'perfect' tends to get met with eyerolls :p
Dakhil said:
Although not related to Nintendo, here are some interesting tidbits from the GTC 2023 (March 2023) keynote.
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The cuLitho thing sounds really neat for the backend side of things. I like Ian Cutress's writeup on the topic/news .
RennanNT said:
I will use an analogy to make it easier to understand the general idea of how it works:

Imagine someone who works reading and writing documents the whole day. These documents are stored in another room of the building.

Going back and forth to that storage room takes too much time, so the worker bring huge stacks of documents every time they go to the storage and put those docs in shelves on their office.

To not waste much time getting up and going to these shelves either, they get a stack of what they're likely working next on and put it in their desk's drawers.

The worker is the CPU/GPU.
The storage room is the HDD/SDD.
The shelves is the RAM.
The drawers is the Cache.
The amount of documents you can move to/from at once is the bandwidth.

In short, the RAM and cache systems are there to minimize the time spent waiting data, making the CPU and GPU more productive. OTOH, you don't want to go overkill, as you're spending money which would get you better results being spent elsewhere. So finding the right amount is a balancing act based on the rest of the system.

Oh, and there are multiple levels of cache, L2 being the second level and is slower but bigger in capacity when compared to the L1.
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Does that make the workspace on the desk itself the Registers? :unsure:
 
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