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StarTopic Future Nintendo Hardware & Technology Speculation & Discussion |ST| (Read the staff posts before commenting!)

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TomNookYankees said:
8N meaning a big console wasn't just form DF. It's also from people in this thread who argued that there was no way it wouldn't be 5nm because of how absurdly large the battery would need to be (and/or how inefficiently the SoC would have to be underclocked) for 8N to work.


Easier to fit stuff when you don't have to also fit in the systems for having the controller attach/detach.
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No I mean to say that DF are the ones dying on the “it’s 8NM” hill, and likewise are putting out the idea (multiple times now) that it’s probably the reason that they chose an 8” screen. I edited my original post because the emphasis was meant to be on the screen choice not the console size.

My point was Nate did not make this same statement. He made no comments on the process.
 
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darthdiablo said:
But that would mean Switch 2 is no longer a handheld.

I think this is pretty much a non-starter, not a scenario that's realistic.
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it's easier to fit the necessary parts in when you don't have to also fit in some type of joycon rail. Basically that it's easier to fit things in the Steam Deck form than in the Lenovo Legion form.

karmitt said:
No I mean to say that DF are the ones dying on the “it’s 8NM” hill, and likewise are putting out the idea (multiple times now) that it’s probably the reason that they chose an 8” screen. I edited my original post because the emphases was meant to be on the screen choice not the console size.

My point was Nate did not make this same statement. He made no comments on the process.
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Nate suggests in the video that people shouldn't expect performance that is as good as the Gamescom demo privately shown last year because nintendo is going to be concerned about battery life.
 
I think another possible benefit for having Joy-Cons(at least on Nintendo’s side), is that Nintendo has made a good profit off of selling different Joy-Con models, and they could continue to do that with the Switch 2, since a good amount of people love to customize their Switch(to some degree at least).
 
Wow. 8 pages in a day, there must be some bombshells, right? Right?

Well...

TomNookYankees said:
Nate suggests in the video that people shouldn't expect performance that is as good as the Gamescom demo privately shown last year because nintendo is going to be concerned about battery life.
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This makes little sense to me. If they weren't targeting that level of hardware, why would they show off to developers that level of hardware?!?
 
I have 2 sets of joy-cons that each have the left one having drift, so I wouldn’t mind it if they were ditched for Switch 2. Besides, I play my Switch docked pretty much all the time with a pro controller.
 
TomNookYankees said:
Nate suggests in the video that people shouldn't expect performance that is as good as the Gamescom demo privately shown last year because nintendo is going to be concerned about battery life.
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This doesn’t even make sense. Obviously the full power will be unlocked in docked mode. That whole podcast was weird.

No one was expecting 4K 60 in handheld mode…
 
TomNookYankees said:
Nate suggests in the video that people shouldn't expect performance that is as good as the Gamescom demo privately shown last year because nintendo is going to be concerned about battery life.
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Uh, no, John said that. And it's one the stupidest things anyone has ever said in Nintendo hardware speculation.
 
TomNookYankees said:
Nate suggests in the video that people shouldn't expect performance that is as good as the Gamescom demo privately shown last year because nintendo is going to be concerned about battery life.
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Also John’s suggestion. Not Nate’s.

John implied the demo from Gamescom may not be representative of final hardware and may be “throttled way down” due to battery life concerns. I believe Imran Khan implied the same thing when the initial Gamescom leaks hit, and it still doesn’t make sense to me.

Nate just suggested separately, before that statement was made, that they may be able to fit a much bigger battery with the 8” screen informing the overall internal space.
 
ExoticSpice said:
It almost feels like DF doesn’t want a powerful switch….
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I think a powerful switch would be extremely interesting in the market. If any multi-platform game could include Switch 2, it would be fantastic.

EDIT: Frankly, the Steam Deck shows that it's probably possible for Nintendo to put together a machine that would have the CPU and GPU to be a reasonable target for any multiplatform game at a reasonable price.
 
The thing about 8nm isn't just that it would be very inefficient and require a bigger battery, it would also require heavier cooling and also be more expensive than 4N. It does not make sense on any real level, especially since T239 was taped out at the same time as other 4N chips. "But it's Ampere and Ampere was 8nm!" Yeah, and Maxwell was 28nm. I don't remember a 28nm Switch.
 
I think they are using a 8 inch screen so they can put in a better cooling and a 5500-6200 mah battery, because high end gaming phones are fitting in a similar battery size, and they might want it be able to boost to 1.8-2tf and/or higher cpu and ram clocks in handheld for PS5 era games, and have the extra cooling for pushing docked mode all the way to 3.7-4tf with high cpu clocks speeds. Maybe it’s one or the other, or maybe it’s both? I still think it’s 4n for all the reasons listed before.
 
Here is the actual quote from John Linneman:

Yeah, I think battery life is a big concern of Nintendo's. And that's another thing with all those, uh, Gamescom sort of rumors and stuff, the leaks about the performance capabilities. Uh, I think that's something to keep in mind is that even if you're seeing really high-end demo hardware from a partner, doesn't mean Nintendo's gonna go for that level of performance. They can throttle that way back in favor of battery life. So, we'll see what happens there. Even the Tegra in the Switch is, I'd say, more capable than what the Switch itself offers. Some of that was done obviously for battery life.
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I don't fully understand what "high-end demo hardware from a partner" means, but what I'm forced to take away from this quote is: John believes Nintendo may have shown a demo (in private, to selected developers) which is not actually representative of the power of the hardware it was supposed to be demonstrating the target specs for. His reason for believing this is "battery life," which -- if we're generous and extrapolate for him to include heat dissipation and the like so it actually applies to docked mode, which is the target spec that would have been shown at Gamescom during a 4K BotW demo and such -- suggests that Nintendo put together a demo for a higher target spec than the one they will ultimately clock the hardware for.

But... they're the ones who made the demo. To show off their own hardware. With the comparison to the TX1 not maxing its rated clock on the Switch, it almost sounds like he thinks the demo was made by Nvidia based on T239 running at its max rated clocks, with no consideration given to the Nintendo hardware it was actually going to be used in, but that's obviously not true. This isn't Nvidia demoing T239. It's Nintendo demoing their hardware.

I find this bafflingly dumb. The correct thing to say regarding the demos -- which has been said here many times already -- is that we don't actually know firsthand how they ran, or how it would stack up in practice to other consoles, or really anything beyond the fact that it sounded encouraging and certain technologies (ray tracing, fast loading) were present. No one reacted to the news of those demos by thinking we're getting a portable PS5. Going all the way overboard in the opposite direction, and saying that the demos don't necessarily have any relation to the hardware's performance, comes across as woefully uninformed contrarianism. It's not like this is a cleaned up promotional screenshot on Twitter! It was a target spec briefing for developers that Nintendo wants to make games for their hardware! I can't wrap my head around this take at all.
 
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Since the Joy-Con has become a hot topic again, allow me to bring up the previous comments by factory uncle #2 before they went into seemingly self-imposed exile. (The last post from them intimated that they were planning to change jobs. Shortly after all their posts were deleted.)
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Judging from these rumors, and the latest Furukawa comment on the importance of multiplayer experience (quote below), it’s hard to believe that Nintendo would abandon the Joy-Con concept.
Super Mario Bros. Wonder is selling at a faster pace than past titles in the Mario series. In addition to the fact that the game itself has been well received by customers, we believe this is due to the fact that the title can be played by two or more players. About half of our customers play this title in a multiplayer mode, which we believe matches the need for people to play together at the end of the year, when many people gather.
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The “speculations” of the Joy-Con’s demise is probably stemmed from the tunnel vision of core gamers, and/or the dev kit’s exclusion of Joy-Cons (an early dev kit rumor from Spain indicating that only a Pro Controller was provided).
 
Look, if we’re lucky, we’re only a month away from many of these odd or bad takes being shut down.

Or we’ll be baffled at Nintendo’s decision making.
 
A larger chassis would allow for more optimal cooling and a larger battery, yes. But I also think it's just possible they picked an 8 inch screen as the most ergonomic choice for showcasing full 1080p content. And subsequently, larger joy con can fit bigger, more comfortable buttons. There seems to be this framing of a larger device being inherently undesirable and a last resort. We've already left the realm of pocketability, might as well go for a reasonable level of comfort.
 
LiC said:
Here is the actual quote from John Linneman:



I don't fully understand what "high-end demo hardware from a partner" means, but what I'm forced to take away from this quote is: John believes Nintendo may have shown a demo (in private, to selected developers) which is not actually representative of the power of the hardware it was supposed to be demonstrating the target specs for. His reason for believing this is "battery life," which -- if we're generous and extrapolate for him to include heat dissipation and the like so it actually applies to docked mode, which is the target spec that would have been shown at Gamescom during a 4K BotW demo and the like -- suggests that Nintendo put together a demo for a higher target spec than the one they will ultimately clock the hardware for.

But... they're the ones who made the demo. To show off their own hardware. With the comparison to the TX1 not maxing its rated clock on the Switch, it almost sounds like he thinks the demo was made by Nvidia based on T239 running at its max rated clocks, with no consideration given to the Nintendo hardware it was actually going to be used in, but that's obviously not true. This isn't Nvidia demoing T239. It's Nintendo demoing their hardware.

I find this bafflingly dumb. The correct thing to say regarding the demos -- which has been said here many times already -- is that we don't actually know firsthand how they ran, or how it would stack up in practice to other consoles, or really anything beyond the fact that it sounded encouraging and certain technologies (ray tracing, fast loading) were present. No one reacted to the news of those demos by thinking we're getting a portable PS5. Going all the way overboard in the opposite direction, and saying that the demos don't necessarily have any relation to the hardware's performance, comes across as woefully uninformed contrarianism. It's not like this is a cleaned up promotional screenshot on Twitter! It was a target spec briefing for developers that Nintendo wants to make games for their hardware! I can't wrap my head around this take at all.
Click to expand...

What would even be the point of that hypothetical demo (staged at Nintendo’s booth)?

Here’s the new chip powering Nintendo’s hardware. It’s pretty slick isn’t it? Oh by the way it can’t run these things were showing you in practice, but it sure is pretty right?
Click to expand...

I want to give odd takes the benefit of the doubt but I can’t grok John’s.
 
fwd-bwd said:
Judging from these rumors, and the latest Furukawa comment on the importance of multiplayer experience (quote below), it’s hard to believe that Nintendo would abandon the Joy-Con concept.
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Btw when I was at Nintendo NY after they updated the gaming screen, the demo of Mario Wonder was set up with two individual joy con set up in 2 player mode 😉
 
Serif said:
We've already left the realm of pocketability, might as well go for a reasonable level of comfort.
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I quite like this. I also have no idea what the cost delta is for a 6.2-inch screen vs a 7.91-inch screen of similar properties otherwise.
 
Dizzle said:
Do the joycon haters not play in handheld mode? That's the main way I use the switch.
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My sight is deteriorating and my hands hurt. I prefer to play on a TV with a pro controller. I'd say I play handheld about 1% of the time. Basically only if I'm into a game instead of a book and I'm on an airplane or a boat.
 
Serif said:
Btw when I was at Nintendo NY after they updated the gaming screen, the demo of Mario Wonder was set up with two individual joy con set up in 2 player mode 😉
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So what about the screen resolution? Is it in 1080p or am I putting to much thought into it?
 
Tentacle-tropes said:
Joy-Cons are about the best free marketing Nintendo can get. Not sure why Nintendo would give that up for essentially nothing.
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Somebody else here humored the idea that devkits in circulation don’t have joycons, and this is leaking into speculation.

One could just as well assume that Nintendo is keeping them close to the chest for most third party developers because they include some key new (additive) feature.

Hard to know how we got here …
 
I feel that with so much of the Switch's original essence being based on the dynamicity that the joy-cons produced to the console they wouldn't be too keen on removing it. From games to external hardware that connects with the joy-cons to just the entire ideia of the Switch itself having that as an idea... I don't see them taking it away. There are different ways to implement detachable controllers on a 8-inch tablet. Mind you, we have no idea if they intend to keep the same design they've done the Switch.

They could absolutely pull a Playstation Portal like device. They could do controllers that are smaller than the tablet itself, or bigger. They could do gigantic joy-cons (the Legion Go exists!), but i think they wouldn't backtrack on what originally worked so well for them.
 
Dizzle said:
Do the joycon haters not play in handheld mode? That's the main way I use the switch.
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I almost always play in handheld mode, the joycons are shit:
  • Analog Sticks are fucking garbage, not just the drift issues I mean the actual quality of these analog sticks. They provide no good thumb traction and feel extremely inaccurate (likely the result of them being so damn small)
  • The shoulder buttons and Z buttons are too close to the point where the switch joycons are not comfortable when trying to have a finger on each shoulder button and z button
  • the only reason I can even tolerate playing in handheld mode is because I use a satisfye switch grip. Without that grip, the switch in handheld mode is extremely uncomfortable to hold due to lacking any grip area
EDIT: Should also add that for whatever reason so many switch games seem to have a significant amount of input lag which might not be just due to the joycons but sure does make the problems even worse.
 
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darthdiablo said:
Same, I hope they have the drifting issue adequately addressed this round (no touching parts which will wear out over time). I was just using drifting as a well known example orig Switch went through but the same nightmare scenario will occur if there happens to be a non-rare issue with Switch 2 non-detachable joycons in general. Or just about any support issue requiring user to send in the whole unit.
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Why do you paint these situations as nightmares when getting just about any other Nintendo device repaired before Switch required sending in the whole console? Nintendo has been known for decades as the company that puts out indestructible hardware. Frankly, the joy-cons are the sole reason this image of Nintendo has changed in recent memory.

If they can get the failure rate of the new system's joysticks back to what they were before the existence of the joy-con, that alone would likely be enough to mitigate some sort of hypothetical RMA disaster. Now imagine they can get it even lower than that and I really don't see an issue. All they have to do is keep plenty of devices on hand to ship replacements if folks get a defect. Apple does this. Nintendo has done this. It's really not a big deal.

Sure, it was great that you could send in a joy-con to get it fixed while still keeping your system at home, but the joy-cons were the problem that needed solving in that situation. Eliminate them and we're back to square one.
 
darthdiablo said:
But that would mean Switch 2 is no longer a handheld.

I think this is pretty much a non-starter, not a scenario that's realistic.
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That's not what they're saying.

They're saying that a form factor similar to the Steam Deck would allow for bigger controls, bigger screen, and more battery without all of the mechanical tolerances needed for functional joy-cons.

You can have your handheld and eat it too.
 
I'm a Joycon hater because of drift and how they sometimes get super wobbly while in handheld mode, I tried playing in handheld mode on my OG switch and just couldn't due to the left Joycon drifting and disconnecting. The best thing that came out of it was me using my Switch Lite which made me hate the current Joycons even more because the controls on the lite just work better.
I would probably loosen up on the joy-cons themselves if Nintendo actually fixed the build quality of them, or made better versions of them for the next switch.
 
BingBong43 said:
Nintendo has been known for decades as the company that puts out indestructible hardware. Frankly, the joy-cons are the sole reason this image of Nintendo has changed in recent memory.
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The DS Lite had notoriously poor hinges.

omniryu said:
So what about the screen resolution? Is it in 1080p or am I putting to much thought into it?
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Mario Wonder seemed to have blurry interpolation, it's a native 1080p game so it should look better on a 1080p screen. It's possible the screen is higher res, like 1440p or 4K, and there's basic upscaling done by the display. There was a Tweet earlier in the thread about the screen possibly being higher res. But I didn't get a great look.
 
7.91 inches 1080p would be 278 DPI. OG Switch was 237. OLED was like 207. 7.91 inches 720p would be about 187. Switch Lite was 267.

6.2 inches at 1080p would have been 355 DPI.
 
My favorite way to play the Switch is with separated joycons one in each hand lying around bed or the sofa, so if the Switch 2 does not feature Joycons then that is just an instantly weaker product in my book.
 
So here's the thing, right. The Joycons ARE shit. But would the hope not be for them to be improved this time around? I put in some hal effect sticks to mine, and instantly it was hundred times better. Increase button size, fix the stick quality, and you have a controller. It's kind of just been my baseline assumption that they will fix what doesn't work with them for the next system, if not, they fully deserve to be laughed off stage next gen. Basically, all I'm saying is I personally don't believe the controllers are bad because of the form factor, they're bad because of terrible quality.
 
Raccoon said:
wait, why would such a dramatic departure use the same dock??
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In the end the dock is just a fancy USB attachment. As long as it fits and can handle the video out and power in, reusing it wouldn't be much different than how they reused the Wii U GameCube controller adapter for Switch.
 
Quality/ergonomics of the current joycons aside, I can't imagine Nintendo ditching them, simply based on the amount of money they will be leaving on the table. Nearly everyone I know who owns a Switch either owns multiples sets of joycons or has owned more than one pair in the past. It's also a high ticket accessory. I don't see Nintendo cutting off that revenue stream.
 
Serif said:
The DS Lite had notoriously poor hinges.


Mario Wonder seemed to have blurry interpolation, it's a native 1080p game so it should look better on a 1080p screen. It's possible the screen is higher res, like 1440p or 4K, and there's basic upscaling done by the display. There was a Tweet earlier in the thread about the screen possibly being higher res. But I didn't get a great look.
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True, I remember the first time I discovered my launch day baby's hinge crack. We all started discovering them together after someone noticed theirs and posted on the Nsider forums. I ran to go check mine and found a hairline fracture. :(

Still though, all you've got to do is backup the device and mail it in and Nintendo can send a replacement quickly. It's an entertainment device, not something you need to always have with you. Nothing about having a unified form factor makes getting repairs any more nightmareish. If anything, the quality bump from all of the components actually having room to exist and be made with better materials would result is less need for repairs.

Nintendo could make a device as indestructible as the Wii U gamepad with the reliability of hall effect joysticks and I doubt there'd be any crisis.
 
JoshuaJSlone said:
In the end the dock is just a fancy USB attachment. As long as it fits and can handle the video out and power in, reusing it wouldn't be much different than how they reused the Wii U GameCube controller adapter for Switch.
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This is very true.

One of my wants for the Switch 2 ecosystem is for it to be a bit more modular maybe? I don't necessarily need a new Dock, and if I can knock $50 off the price by not buying another dock, I'd be fine with that. This goes double if it can just work in general with any USB-C Docking station that provides video out. I would like that very much. Would go with my Covert Dock 2.

EDIT: Another want I have is for there to be USB-C ports on both the top and bottom. It would be nifty if I could use the same dock for either a Steam Deck or a Switch 2.
 
Ahh how can they remove the joycons? They are integral to the brand's identity! I just can't make myself believe this would happen

pvb8zx7.gif
 
Some Anandtech Zen2 vs A78 PPC per Ghz

Geekbench 5.1 PPC chart 6/23/2020:

If the math checks out A78 @ 2.2Ghz should be pretty = to Zen 2 @ 3.5Ghz PPC

PosManCPUCoreYearISAGB5 ScoreGHzPPC (score/GHz)Relative to 9900KRelative to Zen3
1Nuvia(Est.)Phoenix (Est.)2021ARMv9.020013.00667.00241.0%194.1%
2AppleA15 (est.)(Est.)2021ARMv9.019253.00641.70231.8%186.8%
3AppleA14 (est.)Firestorm2020ARMv8.615622.80558.00201.6%162.4%
4AppleA13Lightning2019ARMv8.413322.65502.64181.6%146.3%
5AppleA12Vortex2018ARMv8.311162.53441.11159.4%128.4%
6ARM CortexV1 (est.)Zeus2020ARMv8.612873.00428.87154.9%124.8%
7ARM CortexN2 (est.)Perseus2021ARMv9.012013.00400.28144.6%116.5%
8AppleA11Monsoon2017ARMv8.29332.39390.38141.0%113.6%
9Intel(Est.)Golden Cove (Est.)2021x86-6417804.60386.98139.8%112.6%
10ARM CortexX1Hera2020ARMv8.211153.00371.69134.3%108.2%
11AMD5900X (Est.)Zen 3 (Est.)2020x86-6416834.90343.57124.1%100.0%
12AppleA10Hurricane2016ARMv8.17702.34329.06118.9%95.8%
13Intel1065G7Icelake2019x86-6412523.90321.03116.0%93.4%
14ARM CortexA78Hercules2020ARMv8.29183.00305.93110.5%89.0%
15AppleA9Twister2015ARMv8.05641.85304.86110.1%88.7%
16AMD3950XZen 22019x86-6413174.60286.30103.4%83.3%


Page 8 - Info - TOP 20 of the World's Most Powerful CPU Cores - IPC/PPC comparison

Page 8 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.
forums.anandtech.com forums.anandtech.com
 
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