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StarTopic Future Nintendo Hardware & Technology Speculation & Discussion |ST| (Read the staff posts before commenting!)

Press won't be shown anything even before Nintendo teases the system, if the choose to just tease it months before a full reveal. They won't be shown anything before the full reveal either, just like they weren't with the Switch, they'll learn about it the same day we do and THEN they'll have access to more info about it from Nintendo.
 
How could such a short tweet that claims like, a single thing happened be loaded with misinformation?
Maybe the actual hardware itself wasn't shown off by nintendo at gamescom to the degree that the tweet claims and that the reason for switch 2 chatter after gamescom is mainly from the fact that devs can more easily and privately compare/share/verify with one another and journalists what nintendo has already given them before gamescom?
 
I'm strictly referring to what the tweet was making mention to, which was Switch 2 hardware. I'm aware of the software shown to press at Gamescom via Nintendo.
Are you hearing anything hardware related? I’d assumed your birdsong posts earlier were about hardware, but devs were the ones getting the detail - not press.
 
Very stupid tweet & loaded with misinformation.

So to be clear, are you telling us that hardware was not shown behind closed doors? I think we all agree that the press would not have been part of this, but I do think its rather plausible that Nintendo did brief developers on the new hardware behind closed doors at Gamescom.
 
Wonder if they showed anything to indie developers or just big developers don't think aby big dev would leak anything if it was only them. We might have to wait longer for more info
I think the implication is that unfortunately Nintendo didn't show any hardware stuff at gamescom privately and most all of the switch 2 chatter came from third party devs which is why its difficult for any journalists to confidently verify things, especially after what happened with Bloomberg's Switch Pro mess-up.
 
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So to be clear, are you telling us that hardware was not shown behind closed doors? I think we all agree that the press would not have been part of this, but I do think its rather plausible that Nintendo did brief developers on the new hardware behind closed doors at Gamescom.
There have been other rumors that they've shown or discussed hardware behind closed doors, yes. Probably with devs and not press, I guess.
 
Are you hearing anything hardware related? I’d assumed your birdsong posts earlier were about hardware, but devs were the ones getting the detail - not press.
I have heard things from Gamescom.

So to be clear, are you telling us that hardware was not shown behind closed doors? I think we all agree that the press would not have been part of this, but I do think its rather plausible that Nintendo did brief developers on the new hardware behind closed doors at Gamescom.
I'm saying that Nintendo did not show press anything in regards to Switch 2, as the original tweet had mentioned.
 
I'm saying that Nintendo did not show press anything in regards to Switch 2, as the original tweet had mentioned.

Ok, well the press not being shown no big deal. I think most of us would have been very surprised to hear that Nintendo was showing the press Switch 2. At that point, the full reveal to the public would be imminent, and there is currently no reason to believe that is the case.
 
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I just decoded it , nothing was shown to the press but the Super Switch was shown to devs who were blown away by the T349 chipset which has the power of the sun while remaining ice cold. Nintendo fans will explode with happiness.
 
Has Nintendo ever shown journalist new hardware without revealing it before hand? Developers/publisher I get, but not journalist.
 
would they also handout devkits to Euro devs here perhaps? Not the big major ones as they likely already have them but maybe second tier 3rd parties?
 
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I feel like if that were to happen, it would be very imminent, like two days before E3 imminent.
Exactly, and we have a prime example of that with the Mario Wonder stuff. Rumors of press seeing something in NY, Andy Robinson teasing it's Wonder, Nintendo announces A Mario Wonder direct.

Lets be real, if Nintendo was showing Switch 2 content to press, shit would have already started to leak.
 
Publishers and developers makes sense. Tod Howard said he was shown a demo of the Switch at E3 2016, which he was impressed by. Now with E3 gone, Gamescom and TGS are what’s left to pick up the slack.
 
One question, it seems like many of you are talking about 4N TSMC for the node. Did we got new information? That last rumor I'm aware of was Samsung at 5NM.
That turned out to be unreliable. 4nm (really 5, but that's another discussion) because Nvidia tend to group their products on as few nodes as possible, and it fits very well from how we know 12 sm ampere performs at the expected power envelope.

But nothing should be taken as confirmed at this point.
 
Publishers and developers makes sense. Tod Howard said he was shown a demo of the Switch at E3 2016, which he was impressed by. Now with E3 gone, Gamescom and TGS are what’s left to pick up the slack.
So Todd Howard and Phil Spencer were just at Gamescom to see Switch 2? That's much more neat as pleasing "World Premiere" Keighley.

Watched yesterday the DF Weekly and for me it sounded like they were also hinting that Switch 2 was No 1 rumor on Gamescom and the updates are imminent. Could be of course also just my Nintendo-tinted glasses, but what else would be a candidate for big rumors with a potential imminent reveal?
 
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One question, it seems like many of you are talking about 4N TSMC for the node. Did we got new information? That last rumor I'm aware of was Samsung at 5NM.

@Thraktor made an excellent post regarding power consumption for GA10F on Samsung 5LPP.

Yeah, it puts Samsung's 5nm processes at around the same place as TSMC's 7nm family, which is generally in line with expectations.

Regarding the use of original Switch clocks on the new model, although I don't think that specific rumour about using Samsung 5LPP has any weight to it, it's helpful in highlighting one of the reasons why I think the size of T239's GPU is indicative of a more advanced process, and actually higher clocks than the original Switch.

By poking around at the Jetson Power Tool, we can find that the power curve used for the Orin GPU fits very closely to the following equation:

P = N x 0.4132e^2.01C

Where N is the number of TPCs (or 2x the number of SMs), C is the clock speed measured in GHz, and P is the power consumption measured in Watts. If we take the 27% reduction for 5LPP as a flat value, we can just multiply the equation by 0.73, giving us a hypothetical 5LPP power curve of:

P = N x 0.3016e^2.01C

So, for a 6 TPC design like T239, we would get 3.92W for the GPU at 384MHz and 8.47W for it at 768MHz. Both of these are within the ballpark of what we'd expect for a new Switch, but still don't really explain why they would use such a large GPU. If we invert the equation, we can calculate the clock speed that can be achieved at a given power consumption for a given number of TPCs:

8nm: C = ln( P / (N x 0.4132) ) / 2.01
5nm: C = ln( P / (N x 0.3016) ) / 2.01

Let's assume that Nintendo were choosing between an 8 SM design and a 12 SM design, both on 5LPP with this hypothetical power curve. If their goal was 8.75W for the GPU in docked mode, then they could either have an 8 SM design clocked at 970MHz, providing 1,986 Gflops, or a 12 SM design clocked at 768MHz, providing 2,359 Gflops. Effectively, they're increasing their GPU size by 50%, but only achieving a 19% performance increase out of it. It's not zero return on investment, but it's not great.

Portable mode makes less sense, though. An 8 SM GPU within a 3.92W limit could clock to 586MHz, which would give 1,201 Gflops. A 12 SM design clocked at 384MHz consumes the same amount of power, and hits 1,178 Gflops. That is, they're actually getting slightly less performance with 12 SMs than they would have with 8.

Of course this analysis is inherently limited by assuming that 5LPP provides a simple, scalar reduction in power over 8mm. However, I'd still expect roughly similar behaviour. Effectively what we're looking at here is the marginal return on an increased number of TPCs for a given power draw, or equivalently for given clocks. This is related to the power efficiency curve, and we should see that it's 0 at the clock speed which provides peak power efficiency, tending up towards 1 at peak clocks, and it's negative below the peak power efficiency. Hence why the 12 SM GPU at 3.92W performs worse than an 8 SM one does, because it's dealing with clock speeds below the point of peak efficiency.

As a point of reference, if we take the 8nm Orin power curve from above, we can calculate the clock speed which achieves maximum efficiency: 477MHz. This explains why they don't clock below 420MHz on Orin Jetson products and instead disable TPCs at lower power settings, because it actually provides more performance given they're below peak efficiency. If we do the same for the hypothetical 5LPP curve, we get 644MHz as the peak efficiency. This probably doesn't bear much relationship to the actual point of peak efficiency on 5LPP, given the crude nature of applying a scalar shift to the curve, but we should definitely see this peak efficiency point increase as we move onto more efficient manufacturing processes.

I would be very surprised to see Nintendo using clock speeds lower than the peak efficiency point for the process they're using. If they were, then they'd effectively be paying extra for a less powerful GPU. If money weren't an issue, then the hypothetical ideal design for a power-limited chip should be to identify the peak efficiency clock speed and then choose however many TPCs fit in your power budget at that clock speed. Removing TPCs would reduce performance slightly while lowering your costs, while adding TPCs would also reduce performance but raise your costs.

If you're more constrained by cost than power consumption, then the optimal design is simply as many TPCs as you can afford, clocked as high as you can. In a more realistic scenario where you're balancing cost and power draw of various components, the design will sit somewhere between these two extremes, sitting at a sweet spot in the power/clock/cost space where the marginal benefit of adding more TPCs isn't worth the additional cost.

Of course Nintendo actually have two power profiles to be concerned about, portable and docked, but power efficiency is far more important in portable mode, whereas docked mode is going to be more balanced against cost. Running at below peak efficiency clocks in portable mode would effectively mean they've chosen a design which trades away power efficiency in portable mode in favour of improved power efficiency in docked mode, and increased their costs in doing so, which doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

I would expect Nintendo to have chosen a GPU such that they're clocking somewhere above peak efficiency clocks in portable mode, and around 2x that in docked mode. This gives them a good balance of performance, power draw and cost, and it's exactly what they did with TX1. At 8nm we can easily see that T239 doesn't have such a GPU, as clocking at peak efficiency clocks of 477MHz would draw 6.47W for the GPU alone in portable mode. Assuming about 3W for the GPU, the optimal number of TPCs on 8nm would be 2.78, or 5.57 SMs.

On our hypothetical 5LPP power curve, with a peak efficiency point at 644MHz, we would get 6.6W for T239's GPU. As I said, this is a very crude, and to be honest is probably a good illustration of why we shouldn't just treat the differences in power consumption between manufacturing processes as a flat percentage. The peak efficiency point is likely to be lower than this, and the 27% power improvement is unlikely to be representative of the lower end of the power curve. Still, I would be surprised if 5LPP were so much more efficient than 8N that 12 SMs would be a sensible design choice. You'd need around a 50% reduction in power draw compared to 8N at the low end of the curve for 12 SMs to make sense. Judging by Ampere/Ada comparisons, 4N does seem to offer around a 50% reduction in power draw over 8N.

Anyway, my point is that using original Switch clocks on any process of 8nm or better would mean that they've chosen a GPU that's too big for their requirements, and are paying more for something that's giving them less performance in portable mode and only marginal improvements docked. As I see it, increases in the minimum viable clock speed (ie peak efficiency clock) with improved manufacturing processes make a clock speed of 500MHz+ in portable mode more likely, and a similar increase to the docked clock. That being the case, it's impossible to justify 12 SMs on 8nm, and honestly hard to justify them on either Samsung 5nm or TSMC 7nm. Only on TSMC's 5nm/4nm processes does 12 SMs seem sensible to me.
 
Yes, but it was the General direct first - the Animal Crossing Direct in 2021 was announced at the General Direct 3 weeks earlier.

There are no first party games dated past November. Nintendo is unlikely to put a big announcement in the same month as Wonder's launch, and November and December are "bury the story" months. January is post-holiday fatigue.

If I had to bet money (and I don't) - the Wonder Direct will include a special addition announcement, and the combined two will be the last Switch hurrah, and now Nintendo ekes out over the 15 million number for the fiscal. Nintendo sticks a Partner Showcase in September to meet their obligations to partners. Maybe a Pikmin 1+2 style release is shadow dropped on Twitter to fill out September. Nintendo rides out through January doldrums with nothing, February is the big drop of whatever comes next.

In terms of new hardware specifically, I'm beginning to lean towards Nintendo saying something this year, but revealing nothing. A press release saying something to the effect of "The Switch is very successful. Thank you so much. Announcements on the future of Nintendo's hardware and software platforms will be forthcoming."
So you think we might have a Partner Direct sometimes in September , thats sounds reasonable .

i think if we Nintendo don't Announce more 1st Party Titles before early October that will raise the chance to hear something about the new System this year ..
 
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Yes, corner to corner the OLED Model is greater than the rumoured 7.81". I believe that the new system could, if it minimised bezels, fit into the same footprint (at least, the console body itself.)

In fact I think this is likely. It's the correct size.
I really don't think this is possible without a major redesign
 
Wonder if they showed anything to indie developers or just big developers don't think aby big dev would leak anything if it was only them. We might have to wait longer for more info
If anything I think bigger devs are more likely to leak stuff out than small devs, but this is just pure speculation on my part.

If you think about it, if you're one person in a studio of 100 people you probably feel safer to speak, it's harder to find out who in the studio spoke. Plus I imagine people working at big publishers would generally care a little less about their employer's commitment to secrecy than an indi dev would.

I imagine working at an indi company has far more of a family culture than working at a big company. The company depends on you more, and you depend on it more, and its future is inherently less stable and secure. If you're indi dev and privileged to have a great relationship with Nintendo, you probably want to do anything you can to preserve that partnership, and not start risking such a valuable partnership by saying things you shouldn't say.

I think Nintendo agrees with this line of thinking. Didn't we hear that some of the first devs in the world to get the NX were indis? I can't remember exact details, but I think the steam world team and/or shin'en were super early to get kits? Earlier than some big publishers I think even, if I remember correctly.
 
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So Todd Howard and Phil Spencer were just at Gamescom to see Switch 2? That's much more neat as pleasing "World Premiere" Keighley.

Watched yesterday the DF Weekly and for me it sounded like they were also hinting that Switch 2 was No 1 rumor on Gamescom and the updates are imminent. Could be of course also just my Nintendo-tinted glasses, but what else would be a candidate for big rumors with a potential imminent reveal?
I assume they had other reasons to be there.

But Imagine the internet if the Switch 2 showcase happens and suddenly Phil Spenser comes up on screen

"We're pleased to announce an unprecedented collaberation with Nintendo. Gamepass will be coming to the Nintendo Switch 2"
 
I really don't think this is possible without a major redesign
I expect a major redesign with the sole exception of size. They want to keep it portable and increase the screen size. Something has to give. I'd say extremely squared off design with a metal finish, and round, grippy Joy-Con. Visually distinct but clearly the same "family".

Wii to Wii U went from angular to rounded, not unreasonable to think Switch to NG Switch goes from rounded to angular.


Maybe a little wider than OLED Model to make room for Joy-Con Rail.
 
Tom Henderson joins the fray…

https://insider-gaming.com/nintendo-switch-2-details/

tl;dr - it’s about Jez’s tweet, which he cannot necessarily corroborate, but he is hearing that stuff went down at Gamescom.

Whilst at face value this could be another run-of-the-mill rumor, Insider Gaming has also heard similar rumors behind the scenes when speaking to its sources. Although we cannot pinpoint exactly what was shown and revealed, we know that Nintendo was at the event in a big way

I do hope we don’t have to wait too long to hear a bit of it.
 
I mean.

August 31st IS in two days.
It may be "imminent".

When the press is shown something "imminent", it's a matter of days.
When publishers/developers are shown something "imminent", they need months to make anything of it.

And it seems that when "funcles" say "imminent", it could be up to a couple of years.
 
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It may be "imminent".

When the press is shown something "imminent", it's a matter of days.
When publishers/developers are shown something "imminent", they need months to make anything of it.

And it seems that when "funcles" say "imminent", it could up to a couple of years.
Devs being shown dev kits? Months to years away.

Devs being shown FINAL UNITS?

Genuinely imminent.

Thing is devs have had dev kits for a whiiiiile now. And the SDK, possibly, for even longer than the hardware.

So it probably wasn't dev kits. Which means it was retail units. Which means...

Imminent.

WHAT WERE THOSE INFLUENCERS DOING AT NINTENDO NYC ANYWAY?!

🚨!!!
 
Let's say Nintendo DID show some stuff to Devs behind the wall.

I would still expect them to only show tech demos of features. For example:

Picture this- Room with some chairs... maybe seats 20 people. Screen up front.
Nintendo representative or developer or both up front... they have a regular old switch pro controller or regular old joy con in their hand. Maybe there's a podium box thing with a unit inside that no one can see and it's locked. Perhaps some cables coming out of it.
They have some dev menu up and click a button... Some kind of raytracing demo of that pikmin 4 title screen plays or something. they toggle some features on and off, do some comparisons. Maybe they show a couple more things... A DLSS test or something. People nod and chatter to eachother... the end. They aren't going to be showing controllers and systems and letting people touch it or play it. Not yet.

I expect a major redesign with the sole exception of size. They want to keep it portable and increase the screen size. Something has to give. I'd say extremely squared off design with a metal finish, and round, grippy Joy-Con. Visually distinct but clearly the same "family".

Wii to Wii U went from angular to rounded, not unreasonable to think Switch to NG Switch goes from rounded to angular.


Maybe a little wider than OLED Model to make room for Joy-Con Rail.
Then yeah, It would be awesome if it had a flat design at least on the front... then I could see it staying (basically) the same size for sure.
 
Sorry for those sick about the camera discussion, but where exactly would the camera sit?

With the console screen reportedly being around 8”, I can’t see how they can include a camera above/below without pushing the bezel into ugly territory again. The console isn’t going to have a screen “notch” or “island”, that’s for sure.
 
Sorry for those sick about the camera discussion, but where exactly would the camera sit?

With the console screen reportedly being around 8”, I can’t see how they can include a camera above/below without pushing the bezel into ugly territory again. The console isn’t going to have a screen “notch” or “island”, that’s for sure.
I think people think it'll be on the rear, with the screen acting like a window for AR. A bit like how the Purah Pad has its camera on the back in the middle.

Personally I think the camera(s) will be exactly where they are now and have been for generations. On the controller(s).
 
I assume they had other reasons to be there.

But Imagine the internet if the Switch 2 showcase happens and suddenly Phil Spenser comes up on screen

"We're pleased to announce an unprecedented collaberation with Nintendo. Gamepass will be coming to the Nintendo Switch 2"
Or Starfield :D

No, the only thing we can expect happening from MS will be COD official announcement (was there any?) and that NIntendo will partner with Azure Cloud for Game Streaming. Does anyone know how current game streams are handled? Are these all independent implementations or does Nintendo has there some kind of platform already?
 
I might be dumb and all that? If Nintendo did show Switch 2 dev kits to press at Gamescom... Wouldn't that shit leak fast?
Not necessarily. Leaks are volatile by nature, buuuut, leaks of this kind tend to happen super close to a reveal, anyway. (Or at least, last I checked).
 
Clearly Nintendo just showed off the most visually stunning vertical slice of Metroid Prime 4. It looked so good that everyone in the room just assumed it was for a next generation system.
I got exclusive material from a friend of mine from the reaction to that showcase
 
I think people think it'll be on the rear, with the screen acting like a window for AR. A bit like how the Purah Pad has its camera on the back in the middle.

Personally I think the camera(s) will be exactly where they are now and have been for generations. On the controller(s).
On the controller would be very welcome. Would this do much to kill or harm the third party controller market tho? I suppose it would depend on how many games use it.
 
Let's say Nintendo DID show some stuff to Devs behind the wall.

I would still expect them to only show tech demos of features. For example:

Picture this- Room with some chairs... maybe seats 20 people. Screen up front.
Nintendo representative or developer or both up front... they have a regular old switch pro controller or regular old joy con in their hand. Maybe there's a podium box thing with a unit inside that no one can see and it's locked. Perhaps some cables coming out of it.
They have some dev menu up and click a button... Some kind of raytracing demo of that pikmin 4 title screen plays or something. they toggle some features on and off, do some comparisons. Maybe they show a couple more things... A DLSS test or something. People nod and chatter to eachother... the end. They aren't going to be showing controllers and systems and letting people touch it or play it. Not yet.
unironically, this is the kind of shit that would give me life. then again, I watch GDC/GTC/Siggraph talks
 
Clearly Nintendo just showed off the most visually stunning vertical slice of Metroid Prime 4. It looked so good that everyone in the room just assumed it was for a next generation system.
I assume you meant this as a joke but the "looks too good to be running on Switch" comments have been around for so many games that I actually wouldn't be surprised if the same happens to Prime 4. 😅
 
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