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StarTopic Future Nintendo Hardware & Technology Speculation & Discussion |ST| (New Staff Post, Please read)

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Lancelot said:
It is truly a mindblowing piece of hardware, even when lacking the final specs. Small and powerful enough to offer near-prerendered visuals on the go, outpacing the previous generation of consoles and holding up against the current somewhat... All while drawing <15w of power, does it get any more impressive?
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From spec sheets, the AMD Ryzen Z1 Extreme has a die size of around 178mm². And it's assumed that Drake will be just over half that? Dang.
 
GrandDemand said:
Yep, TX1 (Erista) is 116mm2 (TSMC 20nm) and TX1+ (Mariko) is essentially exactly 100mm2 (TSMC 16nm FF)
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For the sake of argument, say Nintendo/Nvidia were to have Drake at a similar die size of either Erista, or Mariko, what node process would be the most likely?

So say Nintendo/Nvidia opt to not use TSMC’s 4N like what Ada Lovelace uses, are there other potential alternatives that would fit the bill?

I’m not asking about 8N btw. I understand that is too large for the form factor of the Switch as we understand it.
 
Sol said:
Lenovo Go packing an 8.8", 1440p LCD with a 144 Hz refresh rate and VRR. Fully detachable Switch style controllers.

I really do think Nintendo needs to take the handheld PC segement seriously. It's growing incredibly quickly, and unlike past handled gaming efforts from Sony or mobile phones, these devices pose a much more serious threat to Nintendo in the handheld gaming space. People have access to all their PC games/Steam library. The hardware quality of these devices is really solid, and the Go looks to be the best yet. And the device power that is rapidly increasing thanks to new chips and new nodes, etc.

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TheRealWario said:
Unfortunately none of these companies seem to realize that we don't want exponentially larger and higher resolution displays. I might just be speaking for myself here, but I think people want more power in a smaller form factor, not a glorified iPad.
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I do not think Switch owners are the target audience here. None of these devices will have the ease of use the Switch has nor will it have the appeal or the draw of dedicated ports or Nintendo games. It will play nothing but PC games. I think this is where people make a mistake when they believe Nintendo should look at devices like this as a big threat to their market.

Handheld gaming PCs will remain a niche market and that's not a bad thing. It's a cool device for people who want super high-end AAA gaming in a handheld but it will not be sold the same way a Switch is as mass market-affordable console-priced device. It reminds me of how people thought the PS4 (or late-life PS3 I can't remember) were under threat by machines like the Steam Box or PC's that were supposed to be console-like in form factor in order to take up or replace dedicated home consoles on your shelf.

It's just not gonna happen. There are various reasons why things like the Steam Deck or Ally did not flop like those boxes but I think it's a bit misguided to look at those devices as legitimate competitors or replacements for the Switch experience.
 
sorry Lenovo go is barely generating any discussion on twitter. I haven't even seen a youtube video on it break 200k views. I can't see it being a threat in the slightest

this feels kinda like concern trolling. Didn't we go through this with the Steam Deck?

Also is it really "growing incredibly quickly"? Do we have any actual numbers on this?
 
Lugia667 said:
sorry Lenovo go is barely generating any discussion on twitter. I haven't even seen a youtube video on it break 100k views. I can't see it being a threat in the slightest

this feels kinda like concern trolling. Didn't we go through this with the Steam Deck?

Also is it really "growing incredibly quickly"? Do we have any actual numbers on this?
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The Switch sells more units in a month than any of these units will sell in a lifetime, except the Steam Deck, for which the bar is two months.
 
GrandDemand said:
Yep, TX1 (Erista) is 116mm2 (TSMC 20nm) and TX1+ (Mariko) is essentially exactly 100mm2 (TSMC 16nm FF)
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Just a small correction, Erista is actually 117.66 mm².
Shoulder said:
For the sake of argument, say Nintendo/Nvidia were to have Drake at a similar die size of either Erista, or Mariko, what node process would be the most likely?

So say Nintendo/Nvidia opt to not use TSMC’s 4N like what Ada Lovelace uses, are there other potential alternatives that would fit the bill?

I’m not asking about 8N btw. I understand that is too large for the form factor of the Switch as we understand it.
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One possible alternative is TSMC's 7N process node since Nvidia's currently using TSMC's 7N process node to fabricate BlueField-3, Quantum-2, and ConnectX-7. Nvidia also announced during GTC 2023 that BlueField-3 was in production.
And Trendforce's forecast for 2025 mentions that the minimum amount of computing resources required globally for artificial intelligence generated content (AIGC) products are ~145k to ~233k A100 GPUs, which are fabricated using TSMC's 7N process node.
 
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Sol said:
Lenovo Go packing an 8.8", 1440p LCD with a 144 Hz refresh rate and VRR. Fully detachable Switch style controllers.

I really do think Nintendo needs to take the handheld PC segement seriously. It's growing incredibly quickly, and unlike past handled gaming efforts from Sony or mobile phones, these devices pose a much more serious threat to Nintendo in the handheld gaming space. People have access to all their PC games/Steam library. The hardware quality of these devices is really solid, and the Go looks to be the best yet. And the device power that is rapidly increasing thanks to new chips and new nodes, etc.

LpalUMd.png

RurDJyU.png

cTLyGDk.png


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you can pack a RTX 4090 in a Lenovo PC handheld and its sales after a year would still be lower than what the switch sells in a week.

Games matter, then brand and then specs. Switch 2 will be on par with a PS4 GPU wise and CPU wise be much better. Switch 2 will be tailor made something no PC handheld can do. Heck, I would say Switch 2 would sell more in its release month with little to no Switch 2 games than this Lenovo, simpy cause of brand.
 
ReddDreadtheLead said:
It’s not really fake, it’s that the PS4 and XB1 don’t support it for rendering, so it couldn’t be used for those consoles. PS4 Pro used it solely for checkerboard rendering.

XB1X while it had it, it had 1:1 rate.


But it was useless for the device when the XB1 doesn’t even support it like other systems that have FP16 MP potential like the switch, the PS5 or even the XBox Series.

You could say they’re… focused

Thank you thank you, I’ll be here all week

Hey! You’re back! Welcome back, I hope all is well with you.

Link?


Keep in mind as well, that the features that allow for Orin to function perfectly for the automotive scene is that it has cameras to track moving objects. It specifically has support for multiple cameras where it can track moving cars and moving humans. It’s not impossible that, if Nintendo had any desire for VR, they would keep those and use it for eye tracking as they are meant for tracking movement and objects period.


This doesn’t make sense.


Aren’t those ARM v9 specific?

Anyway I agree, or if they can’t have a 12 or 16MB L3, they could go for an SLC that’s shared between all elements of the system. 4-8MB SLC would help it I think.

For now though, for sake of simplicity, assume they are 1MB rather than 4MB of L2 :p.

Oh, and you’d also need to factor the media engines on the chip.


Interesting, would you be able to go this for 8N? I’m curious on something.

SEC nodes of the 5nm variety would be difficult since we don’t have that much to go on.
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think of how good everyone immideately will jump to Switch sucessor, knowing it predecessor become the highest selling hardware of all time.
 
zumaddy said:
Kinda funny that Good Vibes Gaming puts up a video asking if Pokemon XY were good right as I replay them for the first time in like 5 years.
I feel they're underrated. Great varied dex for teams (I remember people were amazed at the Pokemon selection, in every other game not called BW2 you would have the same 4-5 mons pop-up for a while). Lumiose City is great and getting further in based on how much you've accomplished is a nice touch. Pokedex is solid. Music is really underrated. Team Flare are lame but Lysandre is pretty great, the game reinforces that Kalos is kinda snobby - buildings not letting you inside because you aren't fashionable enough, the wealth of Parfum Palace and its awful owner etc.

The main problem is the levelling and how easy it is, Diantha was the most forgettable champion until Geeta. Even with EXP Share turned off (which I've been using for this playthrough), most trainers pose 0 threat. It also has a few gimmicks that go nowhere (Sky Battles, Skiddo Riding).
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gen 6 felt underdevolped, because we didnt have a game focusing on Zygarde the third Legendary of it gen.
 
Giancarlo said:
think of how good everyone immideately will jump to Switch sucessor, knowing it predecessor become the highest selling hardware of all time.
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That will never happen. Companies don't think like fanboys.

Also, let's say Switch sold 140m this financial year, then sold another 10m the next financial year and reached 150m. What if the Switch doesn't surpass PS2 til 2026-27? And in those 2 years sales were crawling to 5-6m? You think that's sustainable? Even 5m a year isn't. That is why they release earlier. Those low sales will happen regardless, with or without Switch 2.

And let's not imagine how bad it'll all look if Switch sales crawl to a halt and never reach PS2 sales. Total waste of time.
 
LiC said:
They didn't; they're the ones whose reporting has people repeating that the 460 MHz mode was added years after release. Various points in that 2019 article call the 460 MHz profile a "recent development", an "upclock," a "new option," etc. that BotW and Odyssey received at some then-recent time. I don't remember if that was the very first article to mention it or not (I think it may have been?) but either way you can see they didn't have the story straight at that point.
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i vaguely recall a eurogamer article talking about Nintendo unlocking a new portable profile. which i vaguely recall was related to BOTW. But i can't seem to find it. You're right, the article i linked to seems to imply it was a new clock profile. Maybe it wasn't Eurogamer and I just mixed up the whole thing.
 
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Giancarlo said:
think of how good everyone immideately will jump to Switch sucessor, knowing it predecessor become the highest selling hardware of all time.
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That would be a dangerous game for Nintendo to play for a number of reasons. There's a lot of factors that go into deciding when to transition, to say nothing of how to market and position what's coming down the pipeline. But at the end of the day, transition too late and/or get too cocky about the stability of your audience or the strength of brand loyalty? You end up with PS3s or, worse, Wii Us. Products that, even if the former made the comeback of the lifetime, never got into spitting distance of their older brothers. Waiting for the Switch to pass what is ultimately a bragging rights milestone falls into that category.
 
ReddDreadtheLead said:
Aren’t those ARM v9 specific?

Anyway I agree, or if they can’t have a 12 or 16MB L3, they could go for an SLC that’s shared between all elements of the system. 4-8MB SLC would help it I think.
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Yes, DSU-110 and -120 should be specific to the respective v9 architectures (I'm assuming -110 is for 2021/2022 and -120 is for 2023 and on till the next one).
But the greater point is that ARM sees the feasibility of such sizes for L3 cache on the nodes that such architectures would likely be implemented on. N5 family, probably N3E as well (and N3E has the same SRAM density as N5).

As for adding another level of cache, I'm not sold that 4-8 MB is worthwhile. A succeeding level of cache should be larger than the preceding one, since if you're going to spend the time to go further away, you'd at least like a presumably higher hit rate. Since the GPU should be able to access the L3 cache in a DSU, and assuming 8 MB of L3 in the first place, the next level after that being either the same size or smaller doesn't seem like it'd be beneficial for either CPU or GPU? My instinct is that for it to be worth it, gotta go big. But then the next question is, would it be more area efficient instead to see if you can further expand L3 a bit more instead...? :p

Yea yea, there's the example of the M1.
From here:
latency-m1.png

Alright, your 8 to ~16 MB still look to be in pretty good shape, but then you're ballooning and by 32 MB you're mainly going to RAM. I am not impressed :rolleyes:
 
MadMarvainy said:
I do not think Switch owners are the target audience here. None of these devices will have the ease of use the Switch has nor will it have the appeal or the draw of dedicated ports or Nintendo games. It will play nothing but PC games. I think this is where people make a mistake when they believe Nintendo should look at devices like this as a big threat to their market.

Handheld gaming PCs will remain a niche market and that's not a bad thing. It's a cool device for people who want super high-end AAA gaming in a handheld but it will not be sold the same way a Switch is as mass market-affordable console-priced device. It reminds me of how people thought the PS4 (or late-life PS3 I can't remember) were under threat by machines like the Steam Box or PC's that were supposed to be console-like in form factor in order to take up or replace dedicated home consoles on your shelf.

It's just not gonna happen. There are various reasons why things like the Steam Deck or Ally did not flop like those boxes but I think it's a bit misguided to look at those devices as legitimate competitors or replacements for the Switch experience.
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I completely agree, but I think there still might be a niche market for slim portable PCs. After all, my steam deck, although bulky, is awesome on the train and around the house. Nintendo absolutely shouldn't feel threatened by portable PCs, but the successor's rumored 8" screen is concerning for those who value portability if it ends up with a sizable bezel.
 
Discostew said:
From spec sheets, the AMD Ryzen Z1 Extreme has a die size of around 178mm². And it's assumed that Drake will be just over half that? Dang.
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Makes sense, the Z1 Extreme is decently better at the GPU side but the LPDDR5 bandwidth brings it down to Drake's level. It's also much less efficient, barely outperforming a Deck in any mode below 15w, draining the battery like crazy in the process... Nothing should beat this chip in real world gaming scenarios.
 
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KeijiKG said:
Nintendo's using ARM, not x86 APUs. The most you'll get out of handheld PC (within the confines of the law) is access to Steam and other such libraries without having to use a cloud service as a buffer. Unless you're suggesting Nintendo should ditch ARM since their cost advantage seems to be going down as the market progresses. Otherwise, I don't really see Indie games losing the Switch market since Nintendo's library will always be the hook and most people don't bother setting up Steam accounts. Also by the time the Switch does have its successor, the performance is already worlds better than an A57, so even performance advantages of small indiegames on PC will be rendered negligible by the time we see the NX2/Drake/Switch² ports.

Really all the portable PC form factor does is provide an alternative to the gaming laptop (yes, I know get your laughs) more than it eats the Switch's lunch.
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It eats the gaming laptop market instead of the switch market for sure. The "switch killer" hasn't killed the switch yet after a year and a half.
 
It would be cool if Nintendo made a smaller Switch NG I know it's probably not likely or viable but I love the switch of my switch lite, if the bezels were smaller and the screen was bigger but it could dock as well would be amazing
 
Giancarlo said:
think of how good everyone immideately will jump to Switch sucessor, knowing it predecessor become the highest selling hardware of all time.
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…most people don’t even know about that though lol

It’s really just an online circle thing that cares about the switch being the best selling console of all time.

Look over there said:
Yes, DSU-110 and -120 should be specific to the respective v9 architectures (I'm assuming -110 is for 2021/2022 and -120 is for 2023 and on till the next one).
But the greater point is that ARM sees the feasibility of such sizes for L3 cache on the nodes that such architectures would likely be implemented on. N5 family, probably N3E as well (and N3E has the same SRAM density as N5).

As for adding another level of cache, I'm not sold that 4-8 MB is worthwhile. A succeeding level of cache should be larger than the preceding one, since if you're going to spend the time to go further away, you'd at least like a presumably higher hit rate. Since the GPU should be able to access the L3 cache in a DSU, and assuming 8 MB of L3 in the first place, the next level after that being either the same size or smaller doesn't seem like it'd be beneficial for either CPU or GPU? My instinct is that for it to be worth it, gotta go big. But then the next question is, would it be more area efficient instead to see if you can further expand L3 a bit more instead...? :p

Yea yea, there's the example of the M1.
From here:
latency-m1.png

Alright, your 8 to ~16 MB still look to be in pretty good shape, but then you're ballooning and by 32 MB you're mainly going to RAM. I am not impressed :rolleyes:
Click to expand...
While true, it depends on how they configure the Silicon, the SLC can function as extra cache for the L3 or can act as extra cache for the L2 of a GPU. Though it’s preferred to be the victim for the L3…

But I’m not sure how that translates for games, since an SLC shared between all the components (giving it coherency) would be better for a larger cache but that has a cost and area associated to it.

And with the estimate (!!!) above of less than 100mm^2, I wonder if a 12 or even 16MB SLC is economically feasible.

Though, in this case the SoC is small anyway. And I don’t know if we know of any other co-processor that exists in the SoC.

Though, those are or should be pretty small. Maybe like, smaller ARM cores for other things in the background.

But I went off on a tangent now so I’ll stop….
 
Kazuyamishima said:
It would be cool if Nintendo made a smaller Switch NG I know it's probably not likely or viable but I love the switch of my switch lite, if the bezels were smaller and the screen was bigger but it could dock as well would be amazing
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We'll inevitably get a Switch 2 Lite down the line. Could see it being a longer wait than we had for Switch to Switch Lite though.
 
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VegiHam said:
Man don't make me pay for a camera I don't want and the stuff games full of weird camera gimmicks

I literally just want a better switch
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Yeah look I feel that, but I can’t get upset at the idea without knowing the costs.

There’s cases like the Wii U where the new controller clearly ate a large chunk of the budget, but a camera could be a pretty innocuous thing cost wise. Not gonna get annoyed just yet.
 
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ertaboy356b said:
It eats the gaming laptop market instead of the switch market for sure. The "switch killer" hasn't killed the switch yet after a year and a half.
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I think people just like how the headlines could sound, really. It's true that the form factor is becoming more common for both PC and Android based systems but neither are really "new" consoles in a sense of their library.
 
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Rogue Agent said:
It's the first part of an answer to the first Supporter Question, here:

Rich doesn't specify what it is, of course, but just generally refers to some big rumours behind-the-scenes at the start of his answer. That's pretty much it.
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Given it's DF, i'd say it definitely not game-related, but hardware related.

Which might point to ReDraketed, but could also be about PS5 Pro. Or some random hardware MS might be working on?
 
Rogue Agent said:
It's the first part of an answer to the first Supporter Question, here:

Rich doesn't specify what it is, of course, but just generally refers to some big rumours behind-the-scenes at the start of his answer. That's pretty much it.
Click to expand...

People with this rumors that was flying behind the scenes will keep quiet until someone start to spill the beans
Thing is interesting I say and won't take so long to have the first tidbits shared elsewhere
 
I don't know, how could this AR thing affect games other than with the creation of specific cards?

I could see a Yu gi oh game, maybe something related to Pokémon TGC and definitely something else but nothing that could be used in every game like 3D, motion sensors or HD rumble.
I know they weren't used in literally every game but they could do it.

Do you think it's the same for AR? maybe it's me thinking in a limited way 😅
 
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necrolipe said:
People with this rumors that was flying behind the scenes will keep quiet until someone start to spill the beans
Thing is interesting I say and won't take so long to have the first tidbits shared elsewhere
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Is it a rumor or something under NDA that just so happens to be making the rounds among close friends?
 
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necrolipe said:
People with this rumors that was flying behind the scenes will keep quiet until someone start to spill the beans
Thing is interesting I say and won't take so long to have the first tidbits shared elsewhere
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Maybe related to the new info of switch 2, like the camera
 
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I would be a good listener for leaks or "friend bird songs".

Good at keeping things a secret, but i would totally show off to you folks that i know stuff now and that i'm not going to tell you!

;D j/k
 
the camera stuff seems like the kind of stuff I'd expect Nintendo to do, additions that won't disrupt the current ecosystem they have in place but more toys to fiddle with. Maybe could be used as an additional reference point for the system to stabilize gyro motions when docked.

I'd like it if they just also put proper voice chat on the successor with a built in microphone (ideally on one of the joycons so it also works docked).
 
www.arm.com

Driving the Custom Silicon Revolution with Arm Neoverse Compute Subsystems

Arm Neoverse Compute Subsystems (CSS) are pre-integrated and validated configurations of Arm Neoverse platforms that reduce development costs and improve time-to-market.
www.arm.com www.arm.com
⋮
Fastest Path to Production Silicon

The first-generation CSS product, Arm CSS N2, is a pre-integrated, pre-validated, PPA-optimized configuration of the Neoverse N2 platform. CSS N2 accelerates time-to-market by leveraging the performance per watt efficiency of the Neoverse N2 platform, optimized for an advanced 5nm process and delivered to partners in a customizable compute subsystem. This allows for new degrees of innovation freedom and can be leveraged as-is or further customized, providing partners the opportunity to differentiate on things like memory, IO, acceleration, physical topology and other areas. This is all in the pursuit of workload-optimized custom silicon solutions.

With CSS N2, Arm is freeing up partner engineering resources to focus on SoC and system-level innovation. For one partner, CSS has already helped take a project from an idea to booting Linux on over 100 cores in just 13 months; another partner saved over 80 engineering years' worth of effort. CSS N2 also enables specialized domain specific accelerator integration – including AI – and achieves market-leading performance per watt for cloud native workloads. CSS N2 is available today and is silicon proven.

For more details on CSS N2, read this technical blog.
⋮
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I wonder if Arm plans on launching the equivalent of Neoverse Compute Subsystems (CSS) for future Cortex-X and Cortex-A7x CPU IPs.
 
karmitt said:
Yeah look I feel that, but I can’t get upset at the idea without knowing the costs.

There’s cases like the Wii U where the new controller clearly ate a large chunk of the budget, but a camera could be a pretty innocuous thing cost wise. Not gonna get annoyed just yet.
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I guess that's totally fair. But if it comes out that the system is less powerful than expected, and the posters in here who understand things say "it's because one of the ram cores is dedicating all its teefloppies to hardware accelerated camera image stabilization scalers" or something, I'll be annoyed
 
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Are we STILL talking about the camera?

If it's not improved IR Motion Camera(s), and instead some weird full colour AR such and such only useable in handheld mode, I'll eat (or at least chew on) a Joy-Con.

I seriously, seriously, genuinely, deeply doubt that they would create any additional features that are handheld mode exclusive. It risks breaking the concept of a hybrid and veers towards a handheld with a dock. Which it is, but that's not how Nintendo wants it to be viewed.

(It's also notable that Nintendo Switch already does AR and has multiple cameras. They're just not built in. Mario Kart Live Home Circuit connects over WiFi, and the Joy-Con IR Motion Camera uses Bluetooth. If they do anything I'd expect it to be down this route. Maybe the IR Motion Camera 2 will also have full colour so you can attach it to Labo 2 creations for a Mario Kart Live Home Circuit type experience?)
 
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