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StarTopic Future Nintendo Hardware & Technology Speculation & Discussion |ST| (New Staff Post, Please read)

The ascend loading happens even when going through thin surfaces sometimes, due to collision calculation.

Ascent.gif


Other times it's instant like in the first example here.
giphy.gif


I think it makes sense to have the screen when going through thick surfaces like mountains, ideally it disappears when the distance to travel is shorter.

I would hope that a faster CPU can help.
This happens bacause of the camera based on the patent.
 
Hah! Not dumb ass, this is me thinking the Switch Pro was coming in late 2022, and now not having anything to do with all these spreadsheets I made.
I always thought it would be 2021, mostly because all of the rumours, but i think Covid changed everything for Nintendo, same goes for Every big gaming company.

But somehow Nintendo has provided a satisfying year, pretty much every year, like last year we had Mario Wonder, Pikmin 4 and Totk.
With that, that pretty much conclude every big Nintendo title, with the exception of Prime 4.

I'm guessing with that, Nintendo will go bigger for NG Switch. Like one thing that Nintendo has that Xbox nor Sony has, is that the technical leap from Switch to Switch 2 will be extremely noticeable and make pretty much anybody on board to transition, compare to PS4 to PS5 (despite the hardware being really good)
 
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I saw this clip and the first thing that came to mind is to joke about wishing to see the Unreal Engine 5/raytracing demo of this on the new Switch...lmao the Switch 2 brainrot is real for me

 
Was watching a video on Dragons Dogma 2 running on the RTX2050 at 1080p with DLSS. Game actually runs quite well in excess of 30 fps, if the Switch 2 does 1080p 30fps with DLSS in docked then I'd be very, very happy. 720p 30fps with DLSS in handheld is also more than acceptable.

Those A78 cores @2.0GHz should be just enough for a mostly consistent 30 fps too, fingers crossed we get a port. I held off buying the game on Steam for this reason.
 
Midori seems to have heard from her sources about a new Monolith Soft project, as well as a Xenosaga project in development with Nintendo. While I really hope this is true, I'm honestly taking this with a grain of salt even with her track record.

Edit: Okay I misinterpreted, it seems to be just another project with Nintendo, no Xenosaga. Either a new Xenoblade, Xenoblade X port/remaster, or a new IP.
 
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This happens bacause of the camera based on the patent.
Read the posts I made following that, the camera impacts whether or not the loading screen is there, but ascend duration depends on collision or height of the surface.
 
Midori seems to have heard from her sources about a new Monolith Soft project, as well as a Xenosaga project in development with Nintendo. While I really hope this is true, I'm honestly taking this with a grain of salt even with her track record.

Edit: Okay I misinterpreted, it seems to be just another project with Nintendo, no Xenosaga. Either a new Xenoblade, Xenoblade X port/remaster, or a new IP.

I was about to ask where she said it was Xenosaga haha
 
We're not getting that kind of info from retail devices until someone hacks one, and I suspect that won't be nearly as easy as it was with the V1 switch. Our best chance for clock speed leaks is if a dev leaks it.
A full system compromise will likely take much longer and involve modchips, but it might be possible to estimate (some of) the clock speeds via more limited process takeover attacks, one of which will likely materialize for the browser fairly quickly.
 
Midori seems to have heard from her sources about a new Monolith Soft project, as well as a Xenosaga project in development with Nintendo. While I really hope this is true, I'm honestly taking this with a grain of salt even with her track record.

Edit: Okay I misinterpreted, it seems to be just another project with Nintendo, no Xenosaga. Either a new Xenoblade, Xenoblade X port/remaster, or a new IP.

If we consider the Perfect Works, Project Legacy could cover the eps 1-3 or part of it.
So, it could be an indication of Xenosaga, or probably Xenosaga version of Xenoblade. Remember that flashback in Xenoblade 3 FR? Probably we are going to the past telling a trilogy of the Conduit. Xenoblade X might be reimagined to fit the style of Xenoblade main title.
The wild card is Xenosaga IP being bought by Nintendo lol
 
All those Switch Pro rumors seem so silly now, hindsight is 20/20 they say

Nintendo upped their game screwing with rumors and insiders. I've been involved in this (as a reader, not a leaker) stuff for over a decade as my career and success depends on it. Rumors were not a landmine of misinformation, half truths, etc. like they are now. Of course the fake insiders and whatnot have a role to play there but it feels like Nintendo is doing more to mess with people who may have access to non-public information.

When I heard rumors of Nintendo combining their handheld and console divisions, I had full faith in it. Now when I hear any rumor I'm like..."eh....ok...". Especially after getting burned by the May 2024 release thing lol. I learned my lesson with that one.
 
Midori seems to have heard from her sources about a new Monolith Soft project, as well as a Xenosaga project in development with Nintendo. While I really hope this is true, I'm honestly taking this with a grain of salt even with her track record.

Edit: Okay I misinterpreted, it seems to be just another project with Nintendo, no Xenosaga. Either a new Xenoblade, Xenoblade X port/remaster, or a new IP.



Legacy = lego + sea
Lego one peice pirate world game??
 
Not that any developer would evvvver leak any info about the upcoming Switch 2 to anyone, but by now surely enough people have been exposed to the hardware so they could develop for it…

Surely there would be programmers who know the clock speeds or gameplay developers who would know if there are new/different controller buttons or features compared to Switch 1.

I’m trying to figure what else a developer working with a devkit might know…
  • Maybe networking stuff like actual voice chat built in on the system level
  • Maybe if there’s a mic of some sort?
  • Maybe any changes to how they do the eShop?
  • Screen features like HDR, max res, max frequency, etc, because don’t you have to set those for your game?

I don’t know, what else could a developer be privy to if they received a dev kit and all the literature that comes with it?
 
Can we get the code name to all of Nintendo's bathrooms ?
You joke, but according to Kit and Krysta some of their conference rooms are named after games/franchises, one example being Animal Crossing

Also according to them they aren't decorated or anything, they are just soulless barebones white rooms
 
  • Maybe networking stuff like actual voice chat built in on the system level
  • Maybe if there’s a mic of some sort?
  • Maybe any changes to how they do the eShop?
  • Screen features like HDR, max res, max frequency, etc, because don’t you have to set those for your game?

I don’t know, what else could a developer be privy to if they received a dev kit and all the literature that comes with it?
Assuming the mic is usable for gameplay, yes, they'll know, because they'll need to be able to add mic features to their games. There would be an API for mic inputs. There will be a physical mic on the devkit. Same for HDR - HDR isn't an effect that is applied by the screen, it's data the game has to send to the screen in order to display. There will be an API for HDR. They'll know the max supported refresh rate for the screen. If VRR is available.

Anything you'd need to know to develop a game for the system, they'll know. If there is a gimmick or technology that NIntendo is keeping to a small number of partners for early games, worried that it will leak, then devs outside that group might be in the dark. Conversely, anything you don't need for development isn't going to be in the devkit. At most communicated by your rep, but I've heard of platform holders being weirdly cagey till the last minute, probably to preserve all options should a last minute rethink of hardware be required. Or just to keep data from leaking.
 
how about some more interesting news. remember when we found out that there was a Chinese variant of Unity that came with more fixins like RTGI and virtualized geometry? well they actually shown up at GDC to talk about the virtualized geometry aspect. it runs on all hardware (ios, android, windows, mac, linux, ps5, series), supports foliage and skeletal meshes, and is a software solution




album

 
how about some more interesting news. remember when we found out that there was a Chinese variant of Unity that came with more fixins like RTGI and virtualized geometry? well they actually shown up at GDC to talk about the virtualized geometry aspect. it runs on all hardware (ios, android, windows, mac, linux, ps5, series), supports foliage and skeletal meshes, and is a software solution



Just to be clear, Virtualized Geometry is the general term for what Unreal Engine 5 branded Nanite? Nanite is just a type of virtualized geometry?
 
Not that any developer would evvvver leak any info about the upcoming Switch 2 to anyone, but by now surely enough people have been exposed to the hardware so they could develop for it…

Surely there would be programmers who know the clock speeds or gameplay developers who would know if there are new/different controller buttons or features compared to Switch 1.

I’m trying to figure what else a developer working with a devkit might know…
  • Maybe networking stuff like actual voice chat built in on the system level
  • Maybe if there’s a mic of some sort?
  • Maybe any changes to how they do the eShop?
  • Screen features like HDR, max res, max frequency, etc, because don’t you have to set those for your game?

I don’t know, what else could a developer be privy to if they received a dev kit and all the literature that comes with it?
Nintendo reportedly even hides new user facing features in Switch firmware from developers working on Switch games. A Switch 2 developer is probably not going to know a ton about what the retail user experience of the console will be.

They'll probably know all of the basic (albeit not all finalized) specs of the device, most likely including all the video output specs. For controls/inputs, Nintendo has been known to ship early devkits with their previous system's controllers and keep those sorts of details more under wraps until later.
 
It's 16. Ampere white paper sets it as a hard design choice in Ampere, 16 ROPS in 2 partitions per GPC, and T239 is 1 GPC. And if there is a non-shader bottleneck, that's probably it? But I'd still bet on shader perf being the limit.

Because I am a nerd, I have a spreadsheet full of DF benchmarks and card specs, so I can rapidly compare stuff without having to spend hours in google searches. Lemme show ya

CardTFLOPSTMU/ 100 coresROP/ 100 coresCache/bandwidth (kb/gb/s)Bandwidth/TFLOPFPS/TFLOP (1080p)FPS/TFLOP (1440p)FPS/TFLOP( 4k)RT 1440p FPS/TFLOP
30509.131.2512.59.1424.69.06.33.72.4
306012.731.2513.48.5328.3 9.16.43.92.6
307020.331.2516.39.1422.18.26.03.82.5
308029.731.25116.7325.66.95.33.12.3
309034.131.2510.96.5326.36.14.932.2
T2394* (high guess)31.2510.48.5330????????????

Let me offer my analysis of this wall of data.
  • The architectural sweet spot seems to be the 3050/3060, which happens to be the card that T239 most closely resembles.
  • The higher end cards seem to underperform in raster load, relative to their shader cores.
  • Some of that is probably not real. The 3090 is getting nearly 500fps on Doom Eternal, that card could push more, but the numbers are being brought down because the CPU is being overwhelmed.
  • Some of that definitely is. The fact that the performance gap drops as you get to 4k, but doesn't go away, says that it really is a case where the card is overwhelmed.
  • The big cards seem under specced in ROPS. That's because there is more binning in the lower cards, so some of the shader cores are disabled, leading to excess ROPS per core.
  • The big cards also seem undespecced in cache. That's because cache goes up linearly, with memory controllers, but shader perf goes up quadratically, as both core counts and clock speeds are increasing as you go up the stack.
  • It's not clear if ROPS or cache are the limiting factor on the top cards. But I'd bet the ROPS.
  • RT is cache loving, and doesn't care about the pixel fill rate, and it's performance only marginally changes over the stack. That tends to point the finger at ROPS
So this all tends to point the finger at T239 being somewhat ROP limited, if it's limited at all. But because I can't stop I actually have more thoughts on that as well. The key point being that PC benchmarks don't necessarily reflect how console ports will work.

None of these tests run DLSS, and RT is kept to a small subset.RT has a shader cost, but doesn't care about the pixel fill rate, as I said. DLSS is similar - it has a shader cost based on output resolution, but the game should be hitting the ROPS at the rate of the input resolution.

I expect hardware Lumen to be common, but even if it's not, DLSS is going to be everywhere. Dedicated ports have the opportunity to tune their performance around the (potentially) limited pixel fillrate of t239, but even if they don't, simply using DLSS will increase the load on the shader cores disproportionate to the ROPS.

But all of this is trying to project rendering technology out by 7 years. With stuff like frame gen coming to consoles even now, years after the release of both the games and the hardware, rendering engines might evolve away from a design which favors Ampere, in which case, who knows. But to me, T239 looks like a pretty optimized design for it's usecase.
Thanks for your analysis, but I wonder if DLSS can also have a ROPs cost as well? Because when you have to write the final result after DLSS to the framebuffer, that use the ROPs as well if I am correct; moreover post-process effects are recommended by Nvidia to do after DLSS pass, and that can hit the ROPs as well?
 
Thanks for your analysis, but I wonder if DLSS can also have a ROPs cost as well? Because when you have to write the final result after DLSS to the framebuffer, that use the ROPs as well if I am correct;
My understanding - which could be totally wrong! - is everything goes through the ROP in the end. But that the majority of ROP load in modern games isn't writing the final pixels to the frame buffer, but the accumulation of multiple buffers over the rendering pass. Also, any form of spatial AA is performed by the ROPS, sampling the pixels multiple times. That's why pixel fillrate needs to be so many times higher than just resolution * frame rate.

In the case of DLSS, yes, it has a ROP cost, I shouldn't have said that it does not. But modern rendering engines might use a dozen buffers per frame, recombined in multiple passes. In a DLSS setup, you're doing all that work at a lower resolution, and then upscaling treats that flattened image as a single buffer for its work.

DLSS is good because it reduces load across the whole rendering pipeline, but my understanding is that it's not even reduction. DLSS's cost is almost entirely in the programmable parts of the pipeline, not the fixed function units.

moreover post-process effects are recommended by Nvidia to do after DLSS pass, and that can hit the ROPs as well?
This is a really good point. Any post-processings effects are going to have the same cost across the entire pipeline, DLSS or not. This actually removes an optimization opportunity - when you control both your TAA and all your post-processing shaders, you can integrate them together to reduce the number of passes. This is how Hello Games managed to get FSR2 into No Man's Sky for Switch, and why DLSS support initially broke fur rendering in Monster Hunter: Rise.
 
My understanding - which could be totally wrong! - is everything goes through the ROP in the end. But that the majority of ROP load in modern games isn't writing the final pixels to the frame buffer, but the accumulation of multiple buffers over the rendering pass. Also, any form of spatial AA is performed by the ROPS, sampling the pixels multiple times. That's why pixel fillrate needs to be so many times higher than just resolution * frame rate.

In the case of DLSS, yes, it has a ROP cost, I shouldn't have said that it does not. But modern rendering engines might use a dozen buffers per frame, recombined in multiple passes. In a DLSS setup, you're doing all that work at a lower resolution, and then upscaling treats that flattened image as a single buffer for its work.

DLSS is good because it reduces load across the whole rendering pipeline, but my understanding is that it's not even reduction. DLSS's cost is almost entirely in the programmable parts of the pipeline, not the fixed function units.


This is a really good point. Any post-processings effects are going to have the same cost across the entire pipeline, DLSS or not. This actually removes an optimization opportunity - when you control both your TAA and all your post-processing shaders, you can integrate them together to reduce the number of passes. This is how Hello Games managed to get FSR2 into No Man's Sky for Switch, and why DLSS support initially broke fur rendering in Monster Hunter: Rise.
Thanks for your reply! I think for potential Switch 2 games, devs have to take account into the fillrate that the system have, especially when they target high resolution. Even in handheld mode, at 1080p, and if Switch 2 GPU only clock at 550MHz, pixel fillrate can be a bottleneck.

Of course when compare to PS4 which have 32 ROPs @ 800MHz - which is regarded by many to be overkill for 1080p - the Switch 2 even in docked mode will have lower fillrate than PS4, which is especially relevant since Switch 2 is likely to target higher than 1080p visuals, DLSS or not. Even the downclocked RTX 2050 test from DF have more fillrate than Switch 2 in docked mode, which can influence the test result we've seen. However Switch 2 will have stuff like DLSS, and things like framebuffer compression techniques, plus delta color compression, etc... I just don't know how much those features will masked the lower fillrate of the Switch 2 GPU. Moreover modern rendering engines rely more on compute rather than fixed-function hardware, so devs can leverage compute hardware on Switch 2 to do stuff that traditionally being done on fixed-function units inside GPU to lighten the load on stuff like ROPs. But that eats into compute throughput and they have to take account of that as well...

I raise the ROPs problem a few times before in this forum because I think it's a potential weak point of the Switch 2 GPU design, and the bigger problem the higher the resolution you go. But every other things seems nice though.

I do wonder if Nvidia/Nintendo engineers knows this and know it's not gonna be a problem, or they agreed it's a compromise on the GPU design? Maybe since the 2022 data leak, design have changed and they might modify to add another ROPs bank to address the issue? Or if the GPU is going to be clocked high enough that the fillrate problems just go away?
 
Midori seems to have heard from her sources about a new Monolith Soft project, as well as a Xenosaga project in development with Nintendo. While I really hope this is true, I'm honestly taking this with a grain of salt even with her track record.

Edit: Okay I misinterpreted, it seems to be just another project with Nintendo, no Xenosaga. Either a new Xenoblade, Xenoblade X port/remaster, or a new IP.

I seem to remember that MonolithSoft used to have an art of something of a Medieval fantasy game that is in contrast of Xenoblade.

Monolith-Soft_08-20-17_002-480x791.jpg

Monolith-Soft_08-20-17_003-768x396.jpg
 

Nice. ADATA’s press release offers a bit more info:

β€œIn the first half of 2024, ADATA officially started mass-producing microSD SD7.1 Express memory cards with read/write speeds up to 800/700MB/s. It also launched SD8.0 Express memory cards with read/write speeds reaching 1,700/1,200MB/s, achieving PCIe SSD speeds and greatly improving the performance of AI mobile devices. ADATA Technology is currently the only leading brand that provides complete Express Card storage solutions.”
 
This passage was originally talk about Midori. Considering how things have developed, I think it's best to delete it to avoid any awkwardness.
 
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Nice. ADATA’s press release offers a bit more info:

β€œIn the first half of 2024, ADATA officially started mass-producing microSD SD7.1 Express memory cards with read/write speeds up to 800/700MB/s. It also launched SD8.0 Express memory cards with read/write speeds reaching 1,700/1,200MB/s, achieving PCIe SSD speeds and greatly improving the performance of AI mobile devices. ADATA Technology is currently the only leading brand that provides complete Express Card storage solutions.”

Are all SDEx 8.0 cards that fast? Is there a record for "slowest SDEx 8.0"?
 
Midori now seems like a leak queen.I wouldn't be surprised by she leaks anything about the Switch 2.

A random thought: she maybe like a carpet in a Japanese game developers' club.

She already has. We know many third-parties are coming to Switch 2 and Atlus plans to release Persona 3 Reload, Metaphor, and (most likely) Persona 6 on Switch 2.

Arguably, with how much third-party support the Switch 2 will get, it's easier to count the devs and games that we won't see on it.
 
An β€œOcarina of Time: Definitive Edition” would fit in with the announced LEGO set. ;)
maybe but monolith definitely wouldnt be the one for that, their only remaster is of xenoblade 1, and we all know who nintendo would go to for zelda remakes

i hope monoliths next project is a new ip, maybe something more mature and darker fantasy to expand the nintendo portfolio
 
Does anyone know who supplies the 5" mini LED display for the Odin 2 mini?
Seems like they are targeting $340-400 and I thought these types of displays were too expensive currently to place in a handheld gaming device.

 
A remaster With Gamecube Zelda demo style and bigger scope (not as FFVII but bigger)
New content isn't really necessary IMHO (and it's never been Nintendo's style to remake the Zelda games, for the most part). It just needs better graphics, all the content from OoT 3D (the master quest), and tons of QOL updates:
  • Full camera control (no version of OoT currently has this)
  • Ocarina and Navi assigned to d-pad buttons
  • Assign extra items to the grip buttons
  • Gyro aim and BotW-style aiming options
Besides graphics, the most I could see them doing with the story is adding voice acting to the cutscenes.
 
Does anyone know who supplies the 5" mini LED display for the Odin 2 mini?
Seems like they are targeting $340-400 and I thought these types of displays were too expensive currently to place in a handheld gaming device.


The maxed out version is 400? This seems very comparable to Switch 2.

Comparable 4nm chipset
Much better panel
12 gb ram
256 gb storage.

It doesnt feature a dock a and two seperate controllers, which I guess sort of cancels out the miniled.
 
The maxed out version is 400? This seems very comparable to Switch 2.

Comparable 4nm chipset
Much better panel
12 gb ram
256 gb storage.

It doesnt feature a dock a and two seperate controllers, which I guess sort of cancels out the miniled.

Yep maxed version is $400.
It is comparable to what we know about Switch 2, but I would like to think because of the sheer volume Nintendo sells in.
They could achieve the same specs of what we know about Switch 2, but with a mini-led display for $400 also...

That design is so Vita

It's definitely a Vita clone!
 
Yep maxed version is $400.
It is comparable to what we know about Switch 2, but I would like to think because of the sheer volume Nintendo sells in.
They could achieve the same specs of what we know about Switch 2, but with a mini-led display for $400 also...



It's definitely a Vita clone!

Nintendo profit margin will be FAR bigger.
 
Nice. ADATA’s press release offers a bit more info:

β€œIn the first half of 2024, ADATA officially started mass-producing microSD SD7.1 Express memory cards with read/write speeds up to 800/700MB/s. It also launched SD8.0 Express memory cards with read/write speeds reaching 1,700/1,200MB/s, achieving PCIe SSD speeds and greatly improving the performance of AI mobile devices. ADATA Technology is currently the only leading brand that provides complete Express Card storage solutions.”

I'm curious what controller they're using for this. Both Samsung and SanDisk design their own flash controllers in-house, but ADATA typically use off the shelf controllers. The only two available SD Express controllers that I'm aware of are Phison's PS5017 and Silicon Motion's SM2708. ADATA has used the SM2708 in at least some of their existing SD Express cards, and it's very hot and power hungry. I would be surprised if the PS5017 is much better, as it was introduced at the same time, and neither company has announced or listed newer controllers on their websites (which typically happens before they make their way into consumer products).

This lack of power efficient controllers was my concern about using microSD Express, as we could end up in a situation where a lot of the cards on the market are hot, power hungry and/or subject to significant thermal throttling. Hopefully SanDisk and Samsung's in-house efforts are much more efficient than Silicon Motion's.
 
Nintendo profit margin will be FAR bigger.
I don't think that's likely at all. This company depends on making their profit up front with the device they sell. They need it to have a decent margin.

Nintendo quite often sells things with little or no margin, Nintendo Switch, at launch, sold at a loss in some markets. Nintendo has the platform advantage backing them up, they don't need to make a huge profit, or any profit, on each device they sell because inevitably people will buy games for it, and as soon as they buy one, Nintendo makes a profit.

The next system has to be a complete SYSTEM. Two wireless controllers, a dock, the power supply, everything. Those devices eat up about a hundred dollar of the BOM and transport costs.

I don't think it's reasonable to call this device comparable, nor its SOC comparable. It's in a totally different market with different features and different goals.

As for the screen, a high quality HDR LCD... Is still really, really good? Hasn't that been discussed to death. πŸ˜†
MiniLED panel advantages aren't all that tremendous and the screen consistency and halo effect concerns are real.
Plus, technically, they are LCD, and we haven't as of yet had anything de-confirm the possibility of MiniLED on the successor, even if I think it's unlikely and frankly, not the best choice.
 
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Switch 1 estimated bill of materials was $257. Sold for USD $300. Retailers take a cut. Not exactly massive, as said above they will make most of their money from software sold. Ayn does not have any exclusive software to sell, it's just a retro emulation handheld.
 
Please read this new, consolidated staff post before posting.

Furthermore, according to this follow-up post, all off-topic chat will be moderated.
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