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StarTopic Future Nintendo Hardware & Technology Speculation & Discussion |ST| (Read the staff posts before commenting!)

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Demon Lizardman said:
So the DLSS will help in play games that could be played on PS5 and Series X?
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Dlss takes the load of high resolution rendering off of the gpus shader cores, and puts it on fixed function specialized hardware elsewhere on the gou that only does matrix tensor math, netting rather absurd amounts of these specific TFlops.

That means the gpu shader cores only need to render a low resolution image sample scene, and can spend all those shader resources that would normally just go to doing the same thing but at a higher resolution, on the bells and whistles of the scene itself.

Think of this kind of situation, at 720p you can have screen space reflections and ambient occlusion, and global illumination models.

But at 1440p you maybe have to drop those effects to keep up framerate because those shaders are now drawing more pixels just for the normal scene without the bells and whistles.

Dlss sidesteps this problem. The GPU can put all it's shader resources into the lower resolution screen, and then send that 720p sample image and some other needed data off to the tensor cores, which do screaming fast tensor math on that image, using a (updatable) guide created by Nvidias hueristic super computer, that tells it what that low res image would look like, if it was natively rendered in 4k, and they actually create a full brand spanking new 4k image to send off to your TV.

That it actually creates a new image based off of the low res one is important. It's the difference between dlss and just upscaling. Upscaling can only work with pixel data it's given, dlss is trained to..... For lack of a better word make educated guesses, and create off of them.

So this way say, a fence in the distant may look like a bunch of screwed up pixels at 720p, an uoscaler has to take those screwed up pixels, and upscale a screwed up mess out of them.

Dlss can recognize, oh, that's supposed to be a fence, and then draw a fence, to fix it. (When it works right lol)
 
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Maybe this is why new Switch could be a little bigger than OLED?

nintedo_switch_joy-con_patent.jpg

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Yavga said:
I cannot fathom how people talk about a new kind of Switch that would almost match the power of a PS5 if Steam Deck didn't get even close. How expensive would this Switch be? Do we even have this tech on a small handheld?
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PS5? Who are these people you speak of?

The PS5 gpu has nearly a thousand more shader cores than drake, likely clocked around 2x higher or possibly more than what Drake will be clocked at.
 
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Yavga said:
I cannot fathom how people talk about a new kind of Switch that would almost match the power of a PS5 if Steam Deck didn't get even close. How expensive would this Switch be? Do we even have this tech on a small handheld?
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Switch 4K will never match the PS5 or Xbox series X in term of power ! Some trickery could « help to approach series S visual »
 
Yavga said:
I cannot fathom how people talk about a new kind of Switch that would almost match the power of a PS5 if Steam Deck didn't get even close. How expensive would this Switch be? Do we even have this tech on a small handheld?
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I don't think anyone is saying that
But matching the output (or at least being in ballpark range) of a device and matching the power of a device are two separate things
DLSS would allow a device such as drake switch to have a similar visual output while not being near the same power ...

rough stupid example:
3rd party game on PS5- Full 4K60fps
Same game on drake-from 72060 base res to DLSS 144060

that kind of deal
same game, fairly similar assets, within the realm of similar visual output
 
Thugstas said:
Switch 4K will never match the PS5 or Xbox series X in term of power ! Some trickery could « help to approach series S visual »
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I can see this possible, if the game optimization is over the top coupled with a perfect implementation of DLSS.

Honestly I'd like to see GTA6 running on this, just because Rockstar are still gonna take a while with the PC port and I don't want to buy an Xbox just for one game :p
 
metonight said:
I can see this possible, if the game optimization is over the top coupled with a perfect implementation of DLSS.

Honestly I'd like to see GTA6 running on this, just because Rockstar are still gonna take a while with the PC port and I don't want to buy an Xbox just for one game :p
Click to expand...
Nvidia and NERD are the perfect combo to help Nintendo
 
Demon Lizardman said:
So the DLSS will help in play games that could be played on PS5 and Series X?
Click to expand...
It's a little more complicated than that, but "maybe" is the short answer. We don't know the details, but a rough best guess:

PS4 levels of power - CPU/GPU speeds, memory, etcetera. This is a rough comparison, and is in docked mode.
PS5 feature set - Stuff like ray tracing
DLSS - a new feature that other current gen consoles don't have

Right now, lots of "current gen" games are really cross-gen. Drake's power and feature set makes it a very comfortable place for those.

DLSS is a feature that is likely going to get an AMD version in next gen consoles, but Drake will get there first. DLSS lets games that target very high resolutions stay at that high resolution, keep all their cool features (like dynamic shadows) on, but take a slight hit in quality (some fine detail lost, or blur in motion), to get a huge bump in framerate.

The power will allow PS4 era games, or PS4 versions of cross-gen games to run pretty comfortably, with some work put in to make them run in handheld.

The feature set will allow potentially cut down ports of PS5 era games, or enhanced versions of PS4 games - again, think cross-gen games running at PS4 level performance, but with PS5 lighting effects.

DLSS potentially helps all of these games, but also allows PS5 games that could run on Drake because feature set, but run like dogbutt because of power, fill in the gap to get to "acceptable"

The open question is how many of these games will be made. If they can only run on Drake, then that's probably a small install base for a while. Cut backs will still need to happen in handheld mode too, which at minimum adds to the porting cost - we've seen lots of games already that run much better in one mode or the other.
 
To add on to the advantage that DLSS offers:
In the right situation, competing with the Series S visuals is possible (assuming Drake's base power is on the more optimistic end of my guesses).
While the S has more raw power available to it, it only has access to worse techniques. Take the advantages that Crusters mentioned for DLSS, then flip them around to see what would drag down the S.
In a scenario where the S has go with reconstruction (via something like FSR 2) instead of fully rendering at native res, the S has to burn some chunk of its shaders on that, as opposed to the tensor cores on Drake. And remember that the S doesn't have a ton of shaders to spare. As for the reconstruction quality itself, as the output resolution goes down, FSR 2 gets worse relative to DLSS, and the S itself outputs a max of 1440p.
(yes, one recurrent theme of my posts is how the Series S is ill equipped for the future of high end projects)
 
Raccoon said:
are we actually though?
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No, there has been the same rando chatter from the Chinese boards, but it is neither clear, human translated, or vetted - even if all the leakers are legit, in this case, we're not even sure what they're saying.

While it could be larger, obviously, I wouldn't worry about it.
 
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oldpuck said:
It's a little more complicated than that, but "maybe" is the short answer. We don't know the details, but a rough best guess:

PS4 levels of power - CPU/GPU speeds, memory, etcetera. This is a rough comparison, and is in docked mode.
PS5 feature set - Stuff like ray tracing
DLSS - a new feature that other current gen consoles don't have

Right now, lots of "current gen" games are really cross-gen. Drake's power and feature set makes it a very comfortable place for those.

DLSS is a feature that is likely going to get an AMD version in next gen consoles, but Drake will get there first. DLSS lets games that target very high resolutions stay at that high resolution, keep all their cool features (like dynamic shadows) on, but take a slight hit in quality (some fine detail lost, or blur in motion), to get a huge bump in framerate.

The power will allow PS4 era games, or PS4 versions of cross-gen games to run pretty comfortably, with some work put in to make them run in handheld.

The feature set will allow potentially cut down ports of PS5 era games, or enhanced versions of PS4 games - again, think cross-gen games running at PS4 level performance, but with PS5 lighting effects.

DLSS potentially helps all of these games, but also allows PS5 games that could run on Drake because feature set, but run like dogbutt because of power, fill in the gap to get to "acceptable"

The open question is how many of these games will be made. If they can only run on Drake, then that's probably a small install base for a while. Cut backs will still need to happen in handheld mode too, which at minimum adds to the porting cost - we've seen lots of games already that run much better in one mode or the other.
Click to expand...

Having Drake being the first console to the DLSS solution punch and it being a handheld is really going to be a neat time, hope Nintendo makes the most out of it, as it's inevitable competing dlss solutions will make this feature a standard across the board, and then that times handheld/hybrid with dlss will be competing against full size consoles also using a dlss solution.
 
Well the longer we have to wait for something more concrete the closer we also get to Nate being able to corroborate that bit of info for his episode, if he's even still looking to do one on the topic.

Not saying he will be able to corroborate it, but every week that passes and we get closer (relatively speaking) to this thing, whether it's this year or Q1 2023, the odds must be increasing as more people hear things, chatter increases, etc. within his and other channels
 
Demon Lizardman said:
So the DLSS will help in play games that could be played on PS5 and Series X?
Click to expand...
It shouldn't make more games possible (RAM and CPU are harder limits there), but those that are possible won't be as obviously visually downgraded compared to those versions as is the case with, say, Switch versions of Witcher 3 or DOOM or whatever.
Yavga said:
I cannot fathom how people talk about a new kind of Switch that would almost match the power of a PS5 if Steam Deck didn't get even close. How expensive would this Switch be? Do we even have this tech on a small handheld?
Click to expand...
Not many people are seriously saying it could get very close to PS5, but Steam Deck isn't some paragon of price-performance efficiency. There are good reasons most mobile devices don't go with PC hardware, but if you want to play PC games it's kind of important.
 
Actually, technically the Drake would be closer to the Series S/X than PS5. PS5 has some custom implementation going on for it if similar features.

Drake has Variable Rate Shading, Mesh Shaders, Ray Tracing Cores, Sampler Feedback, etc.


Series S/X have all of this too.

PS5 has a custom implementation of Ray Tracing, a custom VRS solution, a Geometry engine which should be similar to Mesh Shaders in practice, sampler feedback I’m not sure of….

But all in all, Drake is closer to the MS end than the Sony end.

It remains to be seen if what Sony chose was truly the right call for the industry, it was the right call for them and it doesn’t affect the industry really, or if it was the wrong call and affects the industry.

I’m going to go with option 2.

That said, these are GPU features, it is fully DX12U compliant.

And the NV implementation has been, mostly, on the better end. Though the other consoles have the brute force to make it trivial in this case.

For example, the Nv VRS is better and more fine grained than the AMD one.


DLSS is more like gravy on top. And yes, Ray Tracing Cores> Ray Accelerators (AMD)

Actually, even with we expand further, NVidia is ahead of AMD with respect to all the DX12U. on top of also having significantly better Machine Learning capabilities. I wouldn’t worry too much about Drake folks, featureset wise, it’s already in a comfortable spot.
 
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Demon Lizardman said:
So the DLSS will help in play games that could be played on PS5 and Series X?
Click to expand...

No, the modern feature set support and improved CPU and stuff is what will decide that, dlss will help what it can run that's coming from PS5, not look like it's been stripped down to it's undaroos and smothered in Vaseline.
 
Bigger could just be the requirement for better cooling or bigger SoC die size. The deck is like twice the size of an OG Switch. I think new Switch being a bit bigger makes sense.
 
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As an aside, Series S, X and PS5 render the similar degree of fidelity, Series S has some settings lowered, PS5 and series X trade resolutions.

Drake will get that fidelity downgraded for it of course.

But it should not be so drastic like Switch and PS4 was. Should be in a better spot, and I’m only saying this because of DLSS helping here to a degree.
 
Crusters said:
The tabby talks of his second hands on:

* Hidden text: cannot be quoted. *


My guess is one is just a special color edition, and the one with the different/'warped' case is the chicken dinner.
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Crusters said:
If these data points are useful to anyone, the tabby says the new color shell has been in production for 6 months, while the new shape shell is the first he's seen of it.
Click to expand...
Thanks for calling attention to these. I think that the machine translation got the big picture but tripped up with some key details. Here's my (could be biased) interpretation of the alleged leaker's more recent posts, include some that have since been deleted:
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Raccoon said:
I need to stop reading this thread for my sanity

I'm just going to pray to God that it isn't bigger every night before bed and hope that his light finds me
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Sorry to hear that you're stressed. May I suggest a calming jacket?

WB_Fleece_Cooler_Racoon_1000x1000.jpg
 
Raccoon said:
I need to stop reading this thread for my sanity

I'm just going to pray to God that it isn't bigger every night before bed and hope that his light finds me
Click to expand...
I'd bet my right leg it's gonna be a little bigger- but like, less than a centimetre bigger. Snugly sits in the Nintendo Switch Dock with LAN Port bigger.
 
Look over there said:
To add on to the advantage that DLSS offers:
In the right situation, competing with the Series S visuals is possible (assuming Drake's base power is on the more optimistic end of my guesses).
While the S has more raw power available to it, it only has access to worse techniques. Take the advantages that Crusters mentioned for DLSS, then flip them around to see what would drag down the S.
In a scenario where the S has go with reconstruction (via something like FSR 2) instead of fully rendering at native res, the S has to burn some chunk of its shaders on that, as opposed to the tensor cores on Drake. And remember that the S doesn't have a ton of shaders to spare. As for the reconstruction quality itself, as the output resolution goes down, FSR 2 gets worse relative to DLSS, and the S itself outputs a max of 1440p.
(yes, one recurrent theme of my posts is how the Series S is ill equipped for the future of high end projects)
Click to expand...
Series S supports 4K output just fine. If a game CAN reach 4K on it, and some can, it can output it. Same for Xbox Series X and 8K. Technically possible just unlikely. But FSR support could change that and have Xbox games leaning higher in output resolution than what we see now.
 
fwd-bwd said:
Thanks for calling attention to these. I think that the machine translation got the big picture but tripped up with some key details. Here's my (could be biased) interpretation of the alleged leaker's more recent posts, include some that have since been deleted:
* Hidden text: cannot be quoted. *


Sorry to hear that you're stressed. May I suggest a calming jacket?

WB_Fleece_Cooler_Racoon_1000x1000.jpg
Click to expand...
Thank you for providing something that, while possibly biased, is at least comprehendible.
 
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fwd-bwd said:
Thanks for calling attention to these. I think that the machine translation got the big picture but tripped up with some key details. Here's my (could be biased) interpretation of the alleged leaker's more recent posts, include some that have since been deleted:
* Hidden text: cannot be quoted. *


Sorry to hear that you're stressed. May I suggest a calming jacket?

WB_Fleece_Cooler_Racoon_1000x1000.jpg
Click to expand...

And you nabbed some deleted posts? Hells yeah.
 
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Raccoon said:
that means the joy-cons won't be flush and that it'd be entirely incompatible with old docks

combined that's a dealbreaker for me personally
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No it doesn't. Where did you get that from? OLED Model is bigger than the original Switch, but keeps compatibility. This should be more or less the same. Slightly wider (longer, from Joy-Con rail to Joy-Con rail), but not thicker or taller (as that would break compatibility, something Nintendo has expressly stated they want to avoid.)
 
Concernt said:
No it doesn't. Where did you get that from? OLED Model is bigger than the original Switch, but keeps compatibility. This should be more or less the same. Slightly wider (longer, from Joy-Con rail to Joy-Con rail), but not thicker or taller (as that would break compatibility, something Nintendo has expressly stated they want to avoid.)
Click to expand...
snugly fitting in the OLED dock, in which the oled is loose
 
Just wondering: to stop leaks do separate factories fabricate the components and maybe assemble a section of the console early on? Then, closer to a launch, when in full production all of the components/sections go to a central production line at a facility for assembly and that's where things leak? Do the workers not really know what they're assembling to avoid leaks? Usually it's a shell or some joysticks or buttons (something so identifiable) that leak out and hint at what they're building because it can't be denied at that point?

also, are the "colors" the leaker speaks of actual colors or is that jargon for something?

thanks
 
Raccoon said:
snugly fitting in the OLED dock, in which the oled is loose
Click to expand...
OHHH, sorry for the miscommunication! I wouldn't totally discount the idea of it being a HAIR thicker (maybe a gentle curve on the back so Joy-Con are still flush), but I doubt it.
 
Concernt said:
OHHH, sorry for the miscommunication! I wouldn't totally discount the idea of it being a HAIR thicker (maybe a gentle curve on the back so Joy-Con are still flush), but I doubt it.
Click to expand...
based on what you said about breaking compatibility, I think we're on the same page. I grumbled about the OLED being wider and would grumble even more about the "Pro" being wider than that, but I'd still be satisfied and would try to get one
 
Raccoon said:
that means the joy-cons won't be flush and that it'd be entirely incompatible with old docks

combined that's a dealbreaker for me personally
Click to expand...
I actually expect it to be incompatible with old docks anyway, regardless of size, because of the possible power draw difference.
 
Raccoon said:
that means the joy-cons won't be flush and that it'd be entirely incompatible with old docks

combined that's a dealbreaker for me personally
Click to expand...
Being incompatible with old docks isnt a big deal for consumers because you get a new one included with the console, joycons on the other hand are a much bigger deal and Nintendo probably will do all they can to make sure they stay compatible even if new ones come with Drake.
 
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CullenLX87 said:
Just wondering: to stop leaks do separate factories fabricate the components and maybe assemble a section of the console early on? Then, closer to a launch, when in full production all of the components/sections go to a central production line at a facility for assembly and that's where things leak? Do the workers not really know what they're assembling to avoid leaks? Usually it's a shell or some joysticks or buttons (something so identifiable) that leak out and hint at what they're building because it can't be denied at that point?

also, are the "colors" the leaker speaks of actual colors or is that jargon for something?

thanks
Click to expand...

Who knows. One could be same colours as now, just with a different finish. Nintendo Shiny Switch.
 
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chocolate_supra said:
I actually expect it to be incompatible with old docks anyway, regardless of size, because of the possible power draw difference.
Click to expand...
As I've said before, I don't see much reason for Drake to even have a new dock when the Dock with LAN port perfectly satisfies its demands, including power draw. It has more ventilation, HDMI 2.0b support, and can deliver nearly 40W to the console. Also consider that Drake's Ampere/Ada processor is leagues more power efficient.
 
TheGreatMightyPoo said:
Hey, this is a serious question.

Think the new Switch can run Fall Guys significantly better in handheld and specifically how so???
Click to expand...
If it gets an update I don't see why not. 720p60 with other players animating correctly. Doesn't need any much more than that.
 
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