• Hey everyone, staff have documented a list of banned content and subject matter that we feel are not consistent with site values, and don't make sense to host discussion of on Famiboards. This list (and the relevant reasoning per item) is viewable here.

StarTopic Future Nintendo Hardware & Technology Speculation & Discussion |ST| (Read the staff posts before commenting!)

Reader mode
Off topic.
I hope Switch 2 can change the battery like DS/3DS and Wii U.
Whereas Europe is forcing companies with removable batteries on Smartphones.
 
Aufhebung RPG said:
Isn't Drake's bandwidth a bit low? 102.4GB/s is lower than ps4's bandwidth
Click to expand...

While true, Switch 2 has more advanced features that will help with the lower bandwidth which PS4 doesn’t have

Tile Based Rendering
Fifth generation color compression (from Switch second generation)
Memory compression
Newer and more efficient texture compression
VRS (variable rate siding)
 
Please refrain from using swear words with sexist connotations, such as "bitch". - meatbag, IsisStormDragon, ngpdrew
Shareholder Chad said:
You know something is kind of backwards when everyone is talking about the Switch 2 except Nintendo. This is how you know they are being too secretive. Even for their own investors.
Click to expand...
There's gotta be something at this meeting on May 7th, even if it's as simple as "We have new hardware coming this fiscal year. It's gonna kick all kinds of ass. Nintendo, bitches. We out."
 
GPKs3 said:
There's gotta be something at this meeting on May 7th, even if it's as simple as "We have new hardware coming this fiscal year. It's gonna kick all kinds of ass. Nintendo, bitches. We out."
Click to expand...
,,With the launch of the New hardware, we will also have games''

330px-Yoshiaki_Koizumi_2007.jpg
 
Mr Swine said:
While true, Switch 2 has more advanced features that will help with the lower bandwidth which PS4 doesn’t have

Tile Based Rendering
Fifth generation color compression (from Switch second generation)
Memory compression
Newer and more efficient texture compression
VRS (variable rate siding)
Click to expand...

On the other hand, there are also a lot of memory heavy techniques that have been introduced recently (ray tracing most obviously, but not exclusively)
 
oldpuck said:
Rollback isn't possible in Mario Kart, or Smash, and likely not in those other two games. At least not on Switch. The hardware can't do it.

There is something called big O notation which is a way of talking about how complicated an algorithm is. Algorithms aren't programs, right, like you can optimize a program to make it more efficient, but a program can never be faster than the algorithm. It's like baking a cake - you can optimize the number of dishes, you can rearrange your kitchen so all the ingredients are at hand, but you can't make the cake itself bake faster in the oven without changing the recipe.

Big O lets you describe how algorithms scale - which isn't how "fast" or "slow" they are, but how their speed changes as you increase the number of things. It's written like this, O(math problem with the letter n in it). N, in this case is the number of things.

O(n )means "each time you add a thing, this algorithm slows down by the same amount". Like going down a line of people to tell them that the restaurant is out of french fries. Each person adds the same amount of time to the process. Contrast with O(1) "this algorithm takes the same amount of time no matter how many things there are to deal with." So standing at the front of the line and just yelling "yo, we're outta french fries!"

Rollback netcode is O(n^2), where n is the number of game states that need to be reconciled. That's basically just the number of players, minus 1. You're playing Street Fighter, you just need to reconcile your game with your opponents game, and adjust player positions if they are out of sync. (2-1)^2 = 1^2 = 1. Simple

Smash has four players, twice the number as Street Fighter. (4-1)^2 = 3^2 = 9. Rollback netcode for Smash is nine times as complex as Street Fighter. Mario Kart 8 supports 12 online players simultaneously - (12-1)^2 = 11^2 = 121. Mario Kart's rollback load is 121 times as complex as Street Fighter.

If you really wanna get in the weeds, there are actually two algorithms at work. The one were counting says "how many reconciliations do we need to run to sync this frame of gameplay." But there is a second that says "how complex is the reconciliation itself".

This process of reconciling all these potentially diverging players is probably O(n ), but in this case, n is the number of states the game can be in. That's basically "number of pixels in the game field x the number of things the players can be doing". That's what I mean by big O describing how algorithms scale, not how slow or fast they are. In this case, the reconcilliation process gets slower the larger the level, and the more moves players have. Smash obviously has lots of moves, but in Mario Kart, basically each item is gonna be a "move" - or, in some cases, like the blue shell, it's effectively a new player with it's own moves!

What does this have to do with the Switch hardware? All these simulations have to be run on the CPU. The Switch has a truly remarkable GPU for a 2017 mobile device, but CPU wise, it's hamstrung. It's got a decent mobile CPU for 2017, but that was right before the mobile CPU boom. Switch underclocks those things for power reasons down to a mere 1GHz, and it only has 4 of them, where rollback code is actually pretty multi-core friendly, when done right.

In the case of Smash specifically, we know that the team implemented rollback netcode, but removed it because the cost of it took multiple frames to reconcile, increasing latency, not reducing it. So at least one Nintendo product wasn't saddled with legacy code, it was purely that the Switch's CPU hardware wasn't up to the task for the huge complexity that multiplayer Nintendo games offer.
Click to expand...
I'm sorry but this is misinformation

rollback netcode does not scale with the square of the player count

rollback netcode scales with how long time one frame of gameplay takes to tick

it works by playing the game "ahead" of input received by other players, and never more ahead of the last frame that the local client has received all other player's inputs from than the amount of gameplay ticks can safely be done in the space of the frame budget of the particular game

when you run ahead you just pretend that other players whose input you don't have are just still doing the same input (this is true for 99% of ticks)

when you receive new input from other players you check (once per frame) against the input you made up and resimulate from a saved game state, save the last safe state and go on your merry way

in seven words: rollback is a short term replay system

now mario kart does not use rollback because for the racing genre rollback is a STUPID choice since it's ridiculously easy to predict where the objects should be and it's a game with low APM, so the added complexity of saving and restoring state becomes pointless

source: I've shipped commercial games with online and rollback netcode written by me on the Nintendo Switch
 
Yeah, like, doesn't NASB2 (the purest Smash clone there is) have four player rollback, lol.

I'm guessing there's just a ton of junk (that wasn't junk when it was written for offline gameplay) from Melee that makes it hard to give Smash rollback due to tying visuals to inputs and the same goes for NSMB1 to Mario Maker and 3D Land to 3D World+Bowser's Fury.
 
NintenDuvo said:
The difference with this meeting is that it encompasses for the whole Fiscal Year ending in March 2025, which is the rumored timing for the next device, so there is hope that at least we can get a mention out of Nintendo
Click to expand...
what if Switch sucessor actually launch in april/may of 2025, would Nintendo still have to mention the console or they can mention later in the year(like the shareholders meeting in june)
 
0
My Tulpa said:
Im not worried about tensor cores using t239 power, im questioning how much "power" of a t239 chip is needed to make tensor cores function effectively.

There has to be a bottom of gpu clock speed and power draw where tensor cores can no longer adequately AI upscale a low render to 1080p/60fps...no? If so, what is the theoretical bottom?
Click to expand...
thats an interesting question, i dont know the answer to it, but i have related questions.

how are tensor cores clocked? are they tethered to the rest of the gpu clock? can they theoretically be clocked independently? could they run faster than normal in order to improve the upscale time? what, besides number of tensor cores, do they rely on for high resolution upscaling?
 
7hatDeadCat said:
thats an interesting question, i dont know the answer to it, but i have related questions.

how are tensor cores clocked? are they tethered to the rest of the gpu clock? can they theoretically be clocked independently? could they run faster than normal in order to improve the upscale time? what, besides number of tensor cores, do they rely on for high resolution upscaling?
Click to expand...
I’m think tensor cores and RT cores are just part of GPU and can’t be clocked different, Nvidia GPUs are split into 3 different cores and pipelines, shader,tensor,rt
 
0
Polmo said:
Doesn't Mario Kart and Splatoon use Rollback?

The main reason to smash I think is not because of HW limitations, but the complexity of the smash gameplay itself with all the item to keep tracks off. In Mario Kart if you hit an enemy and the hit is registered a couple of seconds later doesn't matter that much, in a fighting game each frame is crucial. There are different ways to handle a rollback netcode that is not limited to only player counts but also refresh rate.
Click to expand...
this is refuted by slippi existing. it's more than possible for smash.
 
GPKs3 said:
There's gotta be something at this meeting on May 7th, even if it's as simple as "We have new hardware coming this fiscal year. It's gonna kick all kinds of ass. Nintendo, bitches. We out."
Click to expand...
Wait, are there people expecting Nintendo to reveal something about Switch 2 in their investor meeting?

Be prepared for disappointment because they won't reveal the Switch 2 until they feel ready to announce it.
 
Shish said:
Wait, are there people expecting Nintendo to reveal something about Switch 2 in their investor meeting?

Be prepared for disappointment because they won't reveal the Switch 2 until they feel ready to announce it.
Click to expand...
If Switch 2 is launching this fiscal year, which seems to be the general consensus, I feel they should at least acknowledge that new hardware is indeed coming. Isn't it kinda important to disclose something that big to investors if it's happening within the fiscal year? No big announcement, no name, no details, just a simple "We will be releasing new hardware this fiscal year. We have no further info at this time. We will share details at a later time this year."
 
GPKs3 said:
If Switch 2 is launching this fiscal year, which seems to be the general consensus, I feel they should at least acknowledge that new hardware is indeed coming. Isn't it kinda important to disclose something that big to investors if it's happening within the fiscal year? No big announcement, no name, no details, just a simple "We will be releasing new hardware this fiscal year. We have no further info at this time. We will share details at a later time this year."
Click to expand...
As a general rule of thumb, it should be. For a lot of software, you can arguably get away with not detailing it to investors until a moment later on as it's not something that'll really impact the business in the long term, usually only affecting a specific quarter. Nintendo's direction, hardware business that they are, relies on the knowledge of their hardware. Their software business, accessories, relations with third-parties, everything ties back to their console. It is very strange to omit a mention of hardware, and potentially misleading to investors if the hardware is going to cause a major impact to the business.
 
In another example of why the "Nintendo delayed the Switch 2 because of the exchange rate" theory was so bad, the yen was projected to strengthen a couple months ago and instead has badly collapsed over the last 3.5 months.

Projecting precise interest rate decisions from central banks is extremely hard.
 
Simpsons Recap said:
when you receive new input from other players you check (once per frame) against the input you made up and resimulate from a saved game state, save the last safe state and go on your merry way
Click to expand...
I originally wrote "Isn't that exactly O(n^2)?" but once I actually wrote it down on paper, I realized that it's only O(n^2) across the network, right? Like, in 3 player games, the number of frames the whole network has where it needs to resimulate maxes out at n^2, but that's not what the local client needs to do. Am I understanding right?

Simpsons Recap said:
source: I've shipped commercial games with online and rollback netcode written by me on the Nintendo Switch
Click to expand...
I am happy to be completely and thoroughly corrected by someone who knows better than me.
 
I’m ask again hopefully someone answer, if there is any option how to check out what clocks we will have on TSMC 4N with 5W for CPU and 5W for GPU
 
GPKs3 said:
If Switch 2 is launching this fiscal year, which seems to be the general consensus, I feel they should at least acknowledge that new hardware is indeed coming. Isn't it kinda important to disclose something that big to investors if it's happening within the fiscal year? No big announcement, no name, no details, just a simple "We will be releasing new hardware this fiscal year. We have no further info at this time. We will share details at a later time this year."
Click to expand...
But why? What changes for them if they don't do that, and why would they care?
 
Steve said:
Isn't Nintendo using a USC-C charging port, i don't really see this affecting Nintendo this much, except maybe that battery is forced to be removable.
Click to expand...
The Nintendo Switch family's AC adapter, and the power supply on the Nintendo Switch's dock and the OLED model's dock, are not in compliance with USB Power Delivery (PD) specs.
(The USB PD 3.0 specs require all previous voltage and current levels be supported (p. 7). So in the case of the Nintendo Switch family's AC adapter and the power supply on the Nintendo Switch's dock and the OLED model's dock, support for 5 V * 3 A and 9 V * 3 A are missing.)

The EU mandates certain devices with a USB-C port (including handheld video game consoles) to be compliant with USB PD specs per 3.2 from Part I from Annex from the Directive 2022/2380 of the European Parliament and of the Council by the end of 2024.
I could be wrong, but I think the AC adapter included with the handheld video game console is within the jurisdiction of the EU's law. So if I'm not wrong, Nintendo has to change the AC adapter for the Nintendo Switch's successor to be compliant with USB PD specs. And although I don't believe docks are in the jurisdiction of the EU's law, perhaps Nintendo could change the power supply on the Nintendo Switch's successor's dock to ensure that any USB PD compliant AC adapter works.
 
Codename_Steam said:
Nintendo stared NX development around 2014 for a 2016 launch window. Why is Nintendo taking a much longer time for Switch 2?

Didn’t we start hearing about a DLSS Switch around early 2021? What happened?
Click to expand...
At the time Nintendo needed something that could be considered encouraging news for the future. Right now they're fairly well off, so they don't need to rush to anything
 
Shish said:
Wait, are there people expecting Nintendo to reveal something about Switch 2 in their investor meeting?

Be prepared for disappointment because they won't reveal the Switch 2 until they feel ready to announce it.
Click to expand...
the maximum Nintendo could anounce this year, is another console interation like a Switch Lite OLED, 2019: Switch Lite e V2 Switch, 2021: Switch OLED, 2024: Switch Lite OLED?
2025/2026: Switch sucessor?
 
0
Codename_Steam said:
Nintendo stared NX development around 2014 for a 2016 launch window. Why is Nintendo taking a much longer time for Switch 2?

Didn’t we start hearing about a DLSS Switch around early 2021? What happened?
Click to expand...
Most likely nothing happened, it's just an apples to oranges comparison. Nintendo only signed their final agreement with Nvidia and started NX development in earnest in March 2015 for a November 2016 launch (which ultimately proved infeasible and was pushed to March 2017). That's not normal; they were rushing as fast as they possibly could. This time, they aren't rushing, and they also had to have an SoC designed instead of having one pretty much finished before the hardware development even began like the TX1 was. The timeline is much closer to the normal one for Nintendo hardware, maybe a bit on the long side especially if there was indeed a delay out of 2024, but not unprecedented. The earliest development discussions about the 3DS happened in 2006 for a system launched in early 2011. A system that seems to have been conceptualized as far back as 2019 and in development in 2020 -- over the pandemic -- releasing in early 2025 isn't too hard to accept.
 
Last edited:
Codename_Steam said:
Nintendo stared NX development around 2014 for a 2016 launch window. Why is Nintendo taking a much longer time for Switch 2?

Didn’t we start hearing about a DLSS Switch around early 2021? What happened?
Click to expand...
According to Takahashi and Koizumi, they began concept work on the Switch in 2012. They didn't just crank the thing out in two years.

Plus when they did settle on what the final product would be, they had the benefit of an off-the-shelf Nvidia SOC to work with. Also there wasn't a months-long shutdown during its development, nor an international chip shortage. This time it's a little different.
 
Shareholder Chad said:
You know something is kind of backwards when everyone is talking about the Switch 2 except Nintendo. This is how you know they are being too secretive. Even for their own investors.
Click to expand...
And they don’t even need to reveal that much, just show a picture and give a year alongside a promise of more info in the near future. Maybe show a single game if their really isn’t anything big for the rest of the year, but that’s it
 
LiC said:
But why? What changes for them if they don't do that, and why would they care?
Click to expand...
I guess they're not obligated to do anything. I've always been under the impression that companies were, more or less, supposed to disclose key details of the fiscal year to their investors, especially major ones. Hardware is quite major and it's something worth mentioning. Again, simple and to the point. "New hardware coming this fiscal year. Details at a later date." No harm done.
 
Hermii said:
DLSS scales on output resolution only. So to take an extreme example, scaling from 1p to 1080p would take exactly as long as scaling from 1079p to 1080p.

Lets say scaling to 1080 takes around 4ms on Drake portable, then scaling to 1440p should take 4ms on Drake docked, assuming a 2x clock speed.
Click to expand...
I get the feeling that your answer doesn't match the question he asked.
 
IamPeacock said:
If they would release one day after the end of the fiscal year, they probably aren't obligated to say anything if they won't want to, right? 🙂
Click to expand...
Nintendo has almost nothing planned for the second half of the year. If they don't say anything about their future plans, investors and consumers will not be satisfied.
 
Simpsons Recap said:
I'm sorry but this is misinformation

rollback netcode does not scale with the square of the player count

rollback netcode scales with how long time one frame of gameplay takes to tick

it works by playing the game "ahead" of input received by other players, and never more ahead of the last frame that the local client has received all other player's inputs from than the amount of gameplay ticks can safely be done in the space of the frame budget of the particular game

when you run ahead you just pretend that other players whose input you don't have are just still doing the same input (this is true for 99% of ticks)

when you receive new input from other players you check (once per frame) against the input you made up and resimulate from a saved game state, save the last safe state and go on your merry way

in seven words: rollback is a short term replay system

now mario kart does not use rollback because for the racing genre rollback is a STUPID choice since it's ridiculously easy to predict where the objects should be and it's a game with low APM, so the added complexity of saving and restoring state becomes pointless

source: I've shipped commercial games with online and rollback netcode written by me on the Nintendo Switch
Click to expand...

My understanding of rollback is that if you build the game around it from the start then it's easier to add, and patching it into a change after-the-fact it's far more difficult - is that accurate?
 
Reader mode
You must log in or register to reply here.
Please read this staff post before posting.

Furthermore, according to this follow-up post, all off-topic chat will be moderated.
Last edited:


Back
Top Bottom