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StarTopic Future Nintendo Hardware & Technology Speculation & Discussion |ST| (Read the staff posts before commenting!)

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Hermii said:
But it was also kind of a non brainer to implement a feature that every other ampere card supports on Drake imo.
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To some it was a given but not to all. The efficiency of RTX on Switch Successor remains a topic of conversation in many circles. Hell, look at the mess the "no DLA" mention caused.

Speculating from "it could or should be there" to "it's there" is a sizeable difference, imo.
 
Danny said:
Switch doesn't even get old GTA games, so why would Rockstar suddenly work overtime to release a brand new GTA to Switch 2? They didn't seem to care at all about Switch so why would they care about Switch 2? And they are not releasing the game on PC day 1, which means all their porting effort will be spent on making a PC version of GTA VI, not a Switch 2 version.

If we are lucky we will get a port of GTA V on Switch 2.
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I used to wonder why they didn't just bring a single player version of GTA V to Switch 1. It would probably sell a few million units even without the online, why not do it?

Then I realised, its probably because the single player is the gateway drug to the online. They want anyone who has an itch to play GTA V to play it on a system that is getting the online updates as well. They don't want you having the option of playing it on a console that can't then lure you into playing the online mode right after.

So I think that finally explains why they didn't bring GTA V single player to Switch 1. But yeah, clearly R* is a fan of supporting Switch. We got RDR1 when PC still doesn't have that game lol and GTA trilogy remastered came to Switch and even sold better on Switch than any other platform except PS4 in Europe. LA Noire also sold decently on Switch.

 
NateDrake said:
The inclusion of RR was shared months ago by me.
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Yep. What’s also good about the newer DLSS versions is the temporal stability and artifact reduction. Was looking at 4K footage from the new Avatar game and even at DLSS Performance it looks decent enough in motion. The neural network has improved from 2.0 to 3.5.10 for sure, maybe not as much as the improvement from 1.0 to 2.0 but it’s still noticeable.

I think Switch NG games will hold up good in motion compared to current-gen consoles and their implementation of FSR 2 and 3. The question remains as to just how good it will hold up, which I guess as you’ve mentioned also applies to RT compared to lower end NVIDIA PC GPUs like the 3050 and the mobile 2050.
 
Hermii said:
For a portable which woudnt be good at frame gen anyway, the only Lovelace feature that matters is node.

Not completely true, there are improvements to RT etc, but Lovelace isn't much better than 4nm Ampere for a device like this.
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Yeah frame gen just doesn’t make sense with the amount of OFAs Drake is rumored to have. I’m also not having a good enough time with it on PC at the moment in GPU-heavy titles (perhaps because I don’t have like a 4090 lol). The latency when your effective FPS is higher than 60 but not something like 120+ is just not doing it for me and I’d rather turn it off in those games and use it for something lighter like The Finals at low settings with static lighting and DLSS Performance with a 1080p or 1440p output. The current Switch already has a little latency even at 60FPS for games like Smash and I think frame gen wouldn’t help much for next-gen in that regard.

4nm would be so good for NG, especially in terms of weight and battery life.
 
NateDrake said:
To some it was a given but not to all. The efficiency of RTX on Switch Successor remains a topic of conversation in many circles. Hell, look at the mess the "no DLA" mention caused.

Speculating from "it could or should be there" to "it's there" is a sizeable difference, imo.
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“Support" vs "can use at all" is wildly different though as RR in its current form is used only for path tracing and would never be used on the Switch 2. I'm not sure how hard it is to put instructions for something in NVN2, it may be extremely easy and they put it in just in case someone ever decides to do path tracing.

Only an extremely cut down RR would ever be used for Switch 2 as RR is way too heavy to be usable and just isn't worth the cost as again, it's built for path tracing.
 
And while a heavily pruned RR neural network COULD happen I guess, it could make a lot more sense to just make a new neural network trained on denoising scenes with only RTGI or RT Reflections as the results might not be great from aggressive lossy pruning. And a neural network trained on denoising screen space reflections and screen space GI would probably fit the Switch 2 way better than RT Reflections or RT GI.

The PS4 itself can struggle badly with screen space stuff because it's still costly, reducing the cost and then denoising would be a big step up from the PS4 and make the Switch 2 much stronger than the PS4 in practice.

And if you're doing a completely new neural network, I'm not sure you can use the same instructions...
 
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ItWasMeantToBe19 said:
“Support" vs "can use at all" is wildly different though as RR in its current form is used only for path tracing and would never be used on the Switch 2. I'm not sure how hard it is to put instructions for something in NVN2, it may be extremely easy and they put it in just in case someone ever decides to do path tracing.

Only an extremely cut down RR would ever be used for Switch 2 as RR is way too heavy to be usable and just isn't worth the cost as again, it's built for path tracing.
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ray reconstruction is usable without path tracing. in recent tests, it adds about .74ms on a 3080
 
ILikeFeet said:
ray reconstruction is usable without path tracing. in recent tests, it adds about .74ms on a 3080
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"""""Usable""""" yes, it adds no practical value for less than path tracing compared to other common denoisers while costing more.

A 3080 also has 17/3 times as many tensor cores clocked a decent bit higher than the likely Switch 2 docked clocks and much higher than the likely Switch 2 handheld clocks.

A custom neural network that is way less heavy makes much more sense than ever using RR on the Switch 2.

Maybe you could call a denoiser that works on lower quality screen space GI and screen space reflections RR I guess.
 
D36 said:
I haven't been here in a bit and I don't see anything about 3.5 on the OP, so if you don't mind me asking: what can we expect regarding DLSS 3.5?
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DLSS 3.5 is already out, it adds ray reconstruction as an option. RR is a neural network denoiser that has only been used in the two games with path tracing so far. It's usable in less heavy ray tracing situations in Alan Wake 2, but it doesn't add much benefit and costs as much as other denoisers in that situation.
 
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D36 said:
I haven't been here in a bit and I don't see anything about 3.5 on the OP, so if you don't mind me asking: what can we expect regarding DLSS 3.5?
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11 September 2023 → Nate the Hate: NateDrake heard that the Breath of the Wild tech demo was running at 4K at 60 fps. And the main focus of the Breath of the Wild tech demo was to showcase improved loading times, with the Breath of the Wild tech demo going from the main menu to the game with no loading times. NateDrake also heard that DLSS 3.5 was used, but perhaps not the full feature set of DLSS 3.5, hearing DLSS Frame Generation is omitted. NateDrake heard that The Matrix Awakens: An Unreal Engine 5 Experience showcased very advanced ray tracing that was identical, if not better, than what was shown on the PlayStation 5 and the Xbox Series X|S with respect to The Matrix Awakens: An Unreal Engine 5 Experience. And NateDrake heard March 2024 more than once during discussions at Gamescom 2023, but without any context about if March 2024 is referring to the launch date, the launch window, or the reveal date.
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ItWasMeantToBe19 said:
"""""Usable""""" yes, it adds no practical value for less than path tracing compared to other common denoisers while costing more.

A 3080 also has 17/3 times as many tensor cores clocked a decent bit higher than the likely Switch 2 docked clocks and much higher than the likely Switch 2 handheld clocks.

A custom neural network that is way less heavy makes much more sense than ever using RR on the Switch 2.

Maybe you could call a denoiser that works on lower quality screen space GI and screen space reflections RR I guess.
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no, it does exactly what it's supposed to do: clear up denoising artifacts. it's quite clear in the examples on the internet

I'm convinced you have no idea what ray reconstruction even is with your last statement
 
ILikeFeet said:
no, it does exactly what it's supposed to do: clear up denoising artifacts. it's quite clear in the examples on the internet

I'm convinced you have no idea what ray reconstruction even is with your last statement
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NVIDIA pretty clearly says it replaces denoisers instead of cleaning up denoisers, but maybe they're just lying (or you could be being misled by modders again)

"
Ray Reconstruction is a new neural network for all GeForce RTX GPUs that further improves the image quality of ray-traced images. Trained on 5x more data than DLSS 3, DLSS 3.5 replaces hand-tuned denoisers with an NVIDIA supercomputer-trained AI network that generates higher quality pixels in between sampled rays.”

developer.nvidia.com

Generate Groundbreaking Ray-Traced Images with Next-Generation NVIDIA DLSS | NVIDIA Technical Blog

Ray Reconstruction is a new neural network for all GeForce RTX GPUs that further improves the image quality of ray-traced images.
developer.nvidia.com developer.nvidia.com

This theory of RR from you also makes no sense in the context of AW2 as you can turn on RR in AW2 in less heavy RT situations and it doesn't affect performance or fidelity much and you would instead expect better fidelity and worse performance if your theory was correct.
 
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Seven said:
What does it matter if a game is a late port or not? I swear I only see this complaint when it comes to the Switch; Atlus could announce a port of SMTV for PS5 and XBX and nobody would bring up this "late port" nonsense.

Sure these ports never sell as well as day and date releases, but they still open the door for a wider audience. Contrary to what most gamers think not everyone has the time, money, or means to play every game when they are released.
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Why does it matter if it's late? I think if there's a game you're particularly excited for, you'd wanna play it near release, no?

And, as you mentioned, late ports usually sell less compared to multiplats available day-and-date. This can lead to publishers being less inclined to even do a late port if they think there won't be a big enough return on investment. Which is why people get antsy if their preferred platform isn't there at announcement.

It's one thing to wait for a game you know is coming eventually vs. a game that might never come at all. For example, I had no problems waiting for Dragon Quest XI on Switch cause SE announced at the very beginning that it would come to the platform, so there was nothing to worry about. But Persona 5 was a different story. Despite all the teasing (Joker in Smash, P5 Strikers, etc...), Atlus never gave any indication that they were planning to bring Persona 5 to Switch. That made the wait agonizing and a lot of people felt the need to constantly beg Atlus for the game to make sure they knew there was interest.

I think a lot of Nintendo fans are just tired of being treated as 2nd class citizens by 3rd parties. Sure, the Switch did a hell of a lot better than previous Nintendo platforms with 3rd party support, but it still wasn't ideal. Obviously given the power difference, we can't expect everything on the Switch. For example, publisher deals aside, I would understand why SE wouldn't port FFVII Remake to the Switch. But why can't Atlus give us Soul Hackers 2?

Regarding double standards for "late port" complaints, I think it's pretty simple to explain from a console wars standpoint. If the game in question was previously exclusive to a single platform, then it's seen as a victory to "steal" it and it doesn't matter if it took a long time. However it it's a game that was available for every platform except one at launch, then it's seen as "just a late port" since a lot of people on the other platforms have already played it. A lot of the time when Switch gets a late port, it falls into the latter category (though 13 Sentinels and Persona 5 specifically are obviously the former case and those were widely celebrated).
 
topsekret said:
Why does it matter if it's late? I think if there's a game you're particularly excited for, you'd wanna play it near release, no?

And, as you mentioned, late ports usually sell less compared to multiplats available day-and-date. This can lead to publishers being less inclined to even do a late port if they think there won't be a big enough return on investment. Which is why people get antsy if their preferred platform isn't there at announcement.

It's one thing to wait for a game you know is coming eventually vs. a game that might never come at all. For example, I had no problems waiting for Dragon Quest XI on Switch cause SE announced at the very beginning that it would come to the platform, so there was nothing to worry about. But Persona 5 was a different story. Despite all the teasing (Joker in Smash, P5 Strikers, etc...), Atlus never gave any indication that they were planning to bring Persona 5 to Switch. That made the wait agonizing and a lot of people felt the need to constantly beg Atlus for the game to make sure they knew there was interest.

I think a lot of Nintendo fans are just tired of being treated as 2nd class citizens by 3rd parties. Sure, the Switch did a hell of a lot better than previous Nintendo platforms with 3rd party support, but it still wasn't ideal. Obviously given the power difference, we can't expect everything on the Switch. For example, publisher deals aside, I would understand why SE wouldn't port FFVII Remake to the Switch. But why can't Atlus give us Soul Hackers 2?

Regarding double standards for "late port" complaints, I think it's pretty simple to explain from a console wars standpoint. If the game in question was previously exclusive to a single platform, then it's seen as a victory to "steal" it and it doesn't matter if it took a long time. However it it's a game that was available for every platform except one at launch, then it's seen as "just a late port" since a lot of people on the other platforms have already played it. A lot of the time when Switch gets a late port, it falls into the latter category (though 13 Sentinels and Persona 5 specifically are obviously the former case and those were widely celebrated).
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I have the answer to that one.

The game was a critical and commercial failure that ran like shit on PS4/Xbox One.
 
The actual years long obsession with Soul Hackers 2 from Sales Era has been so weird.

Sega probably looked at the viability of a port some months before SH2 released and concluded it would be pretty expensive and SH2 was already headed to being a huge failure so it probably wouldn’t be worth it.
 
Machrider said:
MH Rise sold like 8 million on the Switch before coming to PC so, we're looking at what like 9 million+? probably by now for the Switch only version.

MH Wilds could sell similarly to that on the Switch 2 ... there's just no way Capcom can ignore that kind of money.
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I think it’s about 9 or 10M on switch.
 
ItWasMeantToBe19 said:
The actual years long obsession with Soul Hackers 2 from Sales Era has been so weird.

Sega probably looked at the viability of a port some months before SH2 released and concluded it would be pretty expensive and SH2 was already headed to being a huge failure so it probably wouldn’t be worth it.
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Yeah, I agree that SH2 failed.
This also happened with Sakura Wars 2019. That game was also very poorly received and was not even ported to PC.
 
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careers.nintendo.com

Job Openings - Careers at Nintendo of America

CONTRACT - Software Engineer, Embedded Systems/Machine Learning (NTD), Software Development
careers.nintendo.com careers.nintendo.com
⋮
We at Nintendo are looking for a Software Engineer to help with integration of machine learning technologies on low-power embedded platforms. You will be working at the intersection of machine learning inference engines and embedded systems, facing challenges that stem from processing and memory constraints and a power budget. Tasks include, but are not limited to, porting of machine learning frameworks to embedded platforms, evaluation and benchmarking of machine learning hardware solutions, selection and optimization of machine learning models to fit power, memory, and CPU budgets.

DESCRIPTION OF DUTIES:
  • Design, develop and maintain a formal framework for validating and benchmarking machine learning solutions.
  • Perform evaluations of machine learning hardware.
  • Research, evaluate, analyze and optimize machine learning models.
SUMMARY OF REQUIREMENTS:
  • Undergraduate degree in Computer Science, Electrical Engineering, or a related field.
  • Familiar with deep learning frameworks, e.g. PyTorch, TensorFlow, OnnxRuntime.
  • Proficient in C, C++.
  • Has a working knowledge of Python.
  • Has experience developing embedded software.
  • Possesses strong debugging and troubleshooting skills.
  • Knows OS concepts, e.g., memory management, inter-process communication, threading.
  • Familiar with Git workflow, open-source build systems and toolchains (ninja, LLVM, GCC, CMake, etc…)
  • Comfortable with lab equipment (e.g. jtag, oscilloscope, power meter)
  • This position requires 3-5 years of professional experience
⋮
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I’m actually really curious what neural networks Nintendo is importing and testing here as I imagine NVIDIA would do much better at everything related to DLSS (as it’s their own neural network and chip)
 
robertman2 said:
I have the answer to that one.

The game was a critical and commercial failure that ran like shit on PS4/Xbox One.
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Metacritic 74 (PS5 version) is a critical failure? IMO, it's a decent score, just slightly disappointing compared to previous games in the series. But whatever, let's go with it, it proves my point: Switch players don't even get the opportunity to play and evaluate the game for themselves cause the game "failed" on the platforms it did launch on, so the publisher isn't interested in doing a late port. What's to say the same thing won't happen with the new Mana game? It might "bomb" at launch, and then SE may not be interested in doing a late Switch 2 port. That's why it sucks when Nintendo platforms aren't part of the initial announcement--there's an extra hurdle the game now has to cross to be deemed worthy of getting a late port.
 
topsekret said:
Metacritic 74 (PS5 version) is a critical failure? IMO, it's a decent score, just slightly disappointing compared to previous games in the series. But whatever, let's go with it, it proves my point: Switch players don't even get the opportunity to play and evaluate the game for themselves cause the game "failed" on the platforms it did launch on, so the publisher isn't interested in doing a late port. What's to say the same thing won't happen with the new Mana game? It might "bomb" at launch, and then SE may not be interested in doing a late Switch 2 port. That's why it sucks when Nintendo platforms aren't part of the initial announcement--there's an extra hurdle the game now has to cross to be deemed worthy of getting a late port.
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SH2 sold like shit and downports are expensive.
 
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Meelow said:
There is one game where I hope Nintendo tries to get on the Switch 2. The game isn't announced yet but Zelda fans will love it.
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My experience for “games that Zelda fans will love” is that I don’t like them at all, let alone love them. Curious to see whatever this is
 
topsekret said:
Metacritic 74 (PS5 version) is a critical failure? IMO, it's a decent score, just slightly disappointing compared to previous games in the series. But whatever, let's go with it, it proves my point: Switch players don't even get the opportunity to play and evaluate the game for themselves cause the game "failed" on the platforms it did launch on, so the publisher isn't interested in doing a late port. What's to say the same thing won't happen with the new Mana game? It might "bomb" at launch, and then SE may not be interested in doing a late Switch 2 port. That's why it sucks when Nintendo platforms aren't part of the initial announcement--there's an extra hurdle the game now has to cross to be deemed worthy of getting a late port.
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Sorry if this is kind of off-topic, but: speaking as a Megami Tensei fan, while I think SH2 commercially failed in part because of it not being on the Switch, it moreso failed because it didn't really appeal to anybody; SMT fans and fans of the original Soul Hackers disliked it because it was massively different from the original one (the original was a first-person dungeon crawler with traditional SMT gameplay that had a really specific aesthetic, while SH2 was more similar to Persona with the strict party of four and having social elements), and the wider audience wasn't really interested because it wasn't actual Persona.

That said it did fail in part because of it not being on the Switch; nearly every non-Persona release in the Megaten franchise for a good 10+ years was on a Nintendo platform, and SH2 was the first since the Devil Summoner: Raidou Kuzunoha games (2008/09 on PS2) to not be on one. Compounded with the Switch becoming the outright dominant platform in Japan by the time of SH2's release, the game was kind of destined for failure.

But anyway, I think it's just kind of an awkward period right now, where most JRPG developers want to make more intensive and powerful games but are kind of trapped by the unpowerful Switch being by far the most popular console for those games, and Nintendo seemingly waiting until Holiday 2024 to release its successor. Once the Switch 2 releases, I'd assume the vast majority of JRPGs going forward will be PS4/5/Switch 2/PC.
 
RoyalGoldenFES said:
But anyway, I think it's just kind of an awkward period right now, where most JRPG developers want to make more intensive and powerful games but are kind of trapped by the unpowerful Switch being by far the most popular console for those games, and Nintendo seemingly waiting until Holiday 2024 to release its successor. Once the Switch 2 releases, I'd assume the vast majority of JRPGs going forward will be PS4/5/Switch 2/PC.
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I don't exactly agree with that. most of the developers who are capable of making intensive games also have the budget to market their games and succeed on playstation and PC (and xbox, I guess). anyone who doesn't fall into this category aren't exactly winning awards for technical achievement even on PS4. they also don't have the money to really put their game out there in front of a lot of eyeballs.
 
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ILikeFeet said:
goodwill. the previous game sold 1M copies and had nintendo advertising. the previous games ported to Switch as part of an exclusive collection. it's not "betraying" fan expectations like SH2 did either
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I don't think Nintendo has any more goodwill with SE for being home to previous Mana games than they do with Atlus for being home to previous SMT games. In fact, Nintendo Switch was (and remains) the exclusive home of the best selling strictly SMT game (SMT V with over 1 million units) and also gave it a big advertising push and apparently that wasn't enough goodwill for Soul Hackers 2. I don't think Visions of Mana is a shoe-in for Switch or Switch 2 by any means.

RoyalGoldenFES said:
But anyway, I think it's just kind of an awkward period right now, where most JRPG developers want to make more intensive and powerful games but are kind of trapped by the unpowerful Switch being by far the most popular console for those games, and Nintendo seemingly waiting until Holiday 2024 to release its successor. Once the Switch 2 releases, I'd assume the vast majority of JRPGs going forward will be PS4/5/Switch 2/PC.
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Certainly agree with you about it being an awkward time for devs. Which is why I really want Nintendo to hurry up and announce the damn thing instead of trying to milk the Switch 1 dry. I hope you're right about that JRPG support when the Switch 2 releases. But I'm just preparing for the worst cause I don't think we're getting everything, especially for games in this transitional period where devs wouldn't have necessarily had Switch 2 dev kits back when these projects started.
 
topsekret said:
I don't think Nintendo has any more goodwill with SE for being home to previous Mana games than they do with Atlus for being home to previous SMT games. In fact, Nintendo Switch was (and remains) the exclusive home of the best selling strictly SMT game (SMT V with over 1 million units) and also gave it a big advertising push and apparently that wasn't enough goodwill for Soul Hackers 2. I don't think Visions of Mana is a shoe-in for Switch or Switch 2 by any means.
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Not with nintendo, with the fans. SH2 isn't was fans wanted. Visions looks to be an evolution of a game that sold a million units. It's already in a better position than SH2. Chances of bombing are lower, but it'll definitely need to release on Drake since a lot of sales came from Nintendo systems. Mana isn't so big an IP to not hedge bets
 
ReddDreadtheLead said:
I think it’s about 9 or 10M on switch.
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Yeah that's just a ridiculous number. Even for Rockstar, if like a GTA spin-off ala Chinatown Wars was on Switch somehow and sold 9-10 million copies ... Switch 2 would be getting GTA6, no doubt, even if they had to impossi-port it, they'd find a way to get it done.

That's just way too many copies sold for the business suits in your company to not notice and say "hey wait hold on ... this is a huge money making opportunity".
 
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