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StarTopic Future Nintendo Hardware & Technology Speculation & Discussion |ST| (Read the staff posts before commenting!)

Very nice to see that LPCAMM2 can support up to 9600 MT/s, although I don't expect Nintendo to adopt LPCAMM2 anytime soon due to space restrictions.
 
I have an LCD Deck and while I like the device, there's too many Linux + general PC inconveniences that I don't like. I also expected "switching" to TV mode to be easier.

The sticks are also too far away for me. I don't consider myself to have small hands, they're not massive, just normal I guess, but it's not comfortable. The Switch is slightly more comfortable but both are uncomfortable to be honest. I do like the symmetrical sticks though.

As for the deck as a gaming system, I really like it. The massive library is cool, game sharing is easy, despite the inconveniences, it still is more convenient than playing on my PC, and I managed to work on it when my laptop died so that's also a big plus.

Side note: I got the 64gb for 400 back then and I changed the internal storage for a 256 ssd. It was fairly easy. 64GB was basically unusable imo unless you're only playing really small indie or old games.

Also, I've had too many issues with cache and residual files when installing stuff on the micro SD so I just don't use the microSD for anything that's not emulating ROMs.
With regards to ergonomics, I also would describe myself having average sized hands maybe small for an adult male. The issue I end up noticing is the weight of the Deck partially ends up resting on my left thumb. If I end up needing to push in any direction other than up I need to take a sec to readjust my grip. What works about the Switch is that the console rests in your palm rather than your fingers. I hope the next system can combine the best of both devices.
 
You think Nintendo would be so dense to release a successor system in 2024 with only 4 GB RAM available for games?
Whoever thinks this is unserious, the current Switch has 4 GB of RAM with 3 GB allocated to games.

If anyone sincerely suggests they'll give a whopping 1 GB of additional RAM after 7 years for a next-gen console, please go away. lol
 
Whoever thinks this is unserious, the current Switch has 4 GB of RAM with 3 GB allocated to games.

If anyone sincerely suggests they'll give a whopping 1 GB of additional RAM after 7 years for a next-gen console, please go away. lol
Im down on Nintendo a lot but no one should think that. I’m expecting 12.
 
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Whoever thinks this is unserious, the current Switch has 4 GB of RAM with 3 GB allocated to games.

If anyone sincerely suggests they'll give a whopping 1 GB of additional RAM after 7 years for a next-gen console, please go away. lol
I think we may see 2 GB allocated to OS. Depends on if they want to keep more in memory. Modern use cases are stupidly inefficient with RAM. Especially when you get into web technologies like eShop. A web dev could talk more about that, I'm sure.

I do expect 12 or 16 GB of ram. I would be inadvisably surprised if we only get 8. It's less of a Nintendo is going to Nintendo, but more of a thing where they have trouble letting third parties talk them into anything that their internal people tell them is fine for their use cases.
 
Very nice to see that LPCAMM2 can support up to 9600 MT/s, although I don't expect Nintendo to adopt LPCAMM2 anytime soon due to space restrictions.

The move to more modularity is necessary as sodimm memory sticks are constrained in size, but speed for certain form factors, but soldered components are not ideal, for laptops at least.
For an handheld there's not much difference with LPCAMM2 being available, I imagine, as the mainboard will be standardised and use soldered components. Perhaps through the lens of repairability 🤔 .

I was going to do a post once about the memory chip, but I searched in the thread and saw that you already covered it long long lonnnggg ago, to the degree I was thinking of. So now I have these random screenshots in my folder :p.

bz7swib.png


Steam Deck OLED vs LCD:

MW4C4ub.png


M2 Pro - LPDDR5 - 5200
96a46IT.png


LPDDR5T-9600 on the Vivo X100 Pro
IFdoOjN.jpg
 
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The move to more modularity is necessary as sodimm memory sticks are constrained in size, but speed for certain form factors, but soldered components are not ideal, for laptops at least.
For an handheld there's not much difference with LPCAMM2 being available, I imagine, as the mainboard will be standardised and use soldered components. Perhaps through the lens of repairability 🤔 .

I was going to do a post once about the memory chip, but I searched in the thread and saw that you already covered it 😂 . So now I have these random screenshots in my folder :p.
It's really quite stunning how small the mainboard of the switch is. It's quite stunning.

I really hope for a TV box version. Hopefully in a variety of shells that show off a history of Nintendo consoles. I would so collect them all.
 
It's less of a Nintendo is going to Nintendo, but more of a thing where they have trouble letting third parties talk them into anything that their internal people tell them is fine for their use cases.
This. Designing a console's tech is a collaborative effort and isn't meant to just serve first-party development. Might I remind everyone that Capcom was the main reason behind pushing Nintendo to put 4GB of RAM into the Switch?

Third-party devs tell Nintendo what they need to get games running on their system, and I'm sure most of the big devs told them 8GB simply won't cut it.
 
It's really quite stunning how small the mainboard of the switch is. It's quite stunning.

I really hope for a TV box version. Hopefully in a variety of shells that show off a history of Nintendo consoles. I would so collect them all.
That would be quite something.

Surprised Nintendo didn’t try to do something like that with the Switch dock
 
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This. Designing a console's tech is a collaborative effort and isn't meant to just serve first-party development. Might I remind everyone that Capcom was the main reason behind pushing Nintendo to put 4GB of RAM into the Switch?

Third-party devs tell Nintendo what they need to get games running on their system, and I'm sure most of the big devs told them 8GB simply won't cut it.
I hope. Also to note that Nintendo of today is very different than the Nintendo that existed in the early development days of the Switch. I think all the top positions have changed out and are a bit younger and hopefully a bit more forward thinking. Iwata had a very tough job.
 
While I will never fully rule out 8gb because Nintendo, reliable leakers have suggested it is likely going to be 12, so I am cautiously optimistic that we won't just be restricted to 8gb.
 
Might I remind everyone that Capcom was the main reason behind pushing Nintendo to put 4GB of RAM into the Switch?
I don't know if that's necessarily the case, considering Nintendo decided on 4 GB of LPDDR4 on June 2015 according to the Gigaleak shown by LiC below.
On the subject of RAM for the original Switch:

Capture.png


This gigaleak slide from June 2015 shows they were already planning on using 4 GB (although it's bolded, so maybe it was changed recently?). Funnily enough, it also shows they were planning on 16 GB of internal storage at that point. That changed to 32 GB sometime in the next 8-ish months, though.
 
How so? In this case it would just be a wider gap in resolution, which already fits since 1080p->2160p is a bigger jump than 720p->1080p.
I won't pretend to know how much of a jump in horsepower is needed to go from a 1080p render to an equivalent 4K render, but I was under the impression that Ertaboy wanted a bigger jump than that. My line of thinking is that I'd prefer to not see devs target their games at the point where docked mode is straight up required in order to get a stable framerate.

I say let the developer decide and give them options. If they want to use 30W or 50W, then go ahead. Nintendo shouldn't limit the power of the device. As long as the device's temps are within the expected threshold, they should just let the developers do whatever they want.
It would be kinda hard to keep the temps within the expected threshold if you clock it up to 30W+ (unless it just peaks for 5 seconds then settles back down to 15W, but I don't know if you'd be satisfied by that). At that point I'd have to worry about burning my hands if I want to switch from docked to handheld mode at short notice. And there's also the binning issue, as mentioned by Kvetcha
 
Query: How many folks here own a Steam Deck? I finally bought myself one when the OLED model came out, and it has changed my thinking on Switch 2 a bit. Curious what others experiences are.
I don't have a Steam Deck - they're not officially available in Australia, and I didn't want the warranty hassles of a grey import - but I do have a ROG Ally.

I posted about it previously here.

I do like it well enough as a way to play non-Switch games on the train, but I definitely find it a less smooth commuter handheld experience cos of all the PC headaches (which matter more when you've got a 45 minute window from power up to packed away again).

There are pros and cons both ways, though, since PC headaches do also come with PC flexibility.
 
It’s a lot more than yesterday, right? WHAT IF January was the month of switch 2...

I don't really get what physical stock of (some) Switch 1 games has to do with a Switch 2 launch, let alone announcement.

If I had to guess what's going on, these are all games that are not worth stocking physical copies for anymore, and Nintendo waited to do them all in a batch so no one game/franchise is getting media attention for going out of print.
 
I don't really get what physical stock of (some) Switch 1 games has to do with a Switch 2 launch, let alone announcement.

If I had to guess what's going on, these are all games that are not worth stocking physical copies for anymore, and Nintendo waited to do them all in a batch so no one game/franchise is getting media attention for going out of print.
My guess is new Nintendo Selects.
 
It’s a lot more than yesterday, right? WHAT IF January was the month of switch 2...

I feel like you can loosely connect everything happening with nintendo to switch 2 if you really tried hard enough. This seems like a dead end discussion
 
I don't really get what physical stock of (some) Switch 1 games has to do with a Switch 2 launch, let alone announcement.

If I had to guess what's going on, these are all games that are not worth stocking physical copies for anymore, and Nintendo waited to do them all in a batch so no one game/franchise is getting media attention for going out of print.
Yeah but a number of those entries seem surprising too. Super Mario Odyssey.. Metroid Dread, etc..

It's not like Nintendo is losing money selling physical copies right? (if the issue is overproduction, then why not just reduce production on those entries?)

Also, unless I'm mistaken, even though digital sales share is on the rise, physical sales still dominate.

I feel like you can loosely connect everything happening with nintendo to switch 2 if you really tried hard enough. This seems like a dead end discussion
I didn't see anyone suggest this is related to Switch 2 (unless you're trying to suggest this is off topic, which in that case I agree).

Some of us wonder what the thought process is here with not printing those anymore.

Could Nintendo be re-introducing "Nintendo Selects"?

Mockup I found on web:

switch-selects-range.jpg
 
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Yeah but a number of those entries seem surprising too. Super Mario Odyssey.. Metroid Dread, etc..

It's not like Nintendo is losing money selling physical copies right? (if the issue is overproduction, then why not just reduce production on those entries?)

Also, unless I'm mistaken, even though digital sales share is on the rise, physical sales still dominate.
I agree, this list is a little surprising imo.

The most notable item on the list for me is Fire Emblem Engage. I know it didn't do great, but it hasn't even been a year yet and its already going out of print
 
Certainly would be fun to be a reissuing to account for any ambiguity alongside the new generation. Feels a smidge early tho if we don’t see the new hardware release until end of year.
__

It makes sense for them to adjust the boxes in some way as I really do think BC / enhancements will be at least part of the early pitch - notably one that will cause some buzz among core audiences. If there’s any truth to the last several years of “4K Switch” testing and kits I can’t see it having all been scrapped or distinct from T239.
 
If you don't mind me asking, how'd the Deck change your thinking on the Switch 2?
This will sound dumb, but I bought Outer Wilds for my Steam Deck, and realized how much port begging that I, personally, saw evaporate when I had another handheld to play games on. I also realized that even though the OLED SD fixed every major issue I had with the Steam Deck, there were still games I would prefer to play on Switch.

The conventional wisdom is that Nintendo doesn't need to seriously consider the Portable PC in its calculus, because those machines are still sub 5 million in sales. I now disagree, in a way that surprises me. Valve has made as close to a "console like" experience on a PC as possible, and it's great, but it still took me an hour to get Control where I wanted it. I don't think it's possible to smooth that experience down without eliminating everything special that the Steam Deck brings to the table.

That leaves a number of places where Nintendo can lean into what makes their device special, above and beyond "gaming handheld." Nintendo doesn't need to offer best-in-class performance to make me prefer playing on their device. Ergonomics, portability, battery life, ease of docking, zero config required, and yes gimmicks are the things that will draw me in.

When it comes to the specific technology, being able to play with some next-gen games on a handheld device, with PC like control over them I've got the following conclusions.

RT is the secret sauce. It's really amazing to see what RT can do to the visual look of a game that has been art-designed around it. Folk worry about how a system that can't match the Series S in TFLOPS is going to age. I am now, more than ever, worried about how well the Series S can age without better RT performance.

DLSS 2 isn't the secret sauce. I'm not saying DLSS 2 is bad - it's amazing. But I'm surprised at how well other upscalers hold up at 2x scaling, on a smaller screen or at a long distance. And they are fast. All upscaling can have interesting interactions with post-processing effects. I've always been kinda dubious of thinking of DLSS as some kinda "FLOP multiplier" but this nipped it in the bud. It's an amazing tool that the other consoles don't have, but what is the "best" upscaling solution is a game-by-game decision.

Fast Storage Matters. A little. The NVMe in the Steam Deck is great, lots of very fast loading times. But in terms of gameplay I've never seen it under serious strain. It's hard to tell how games will evolve over the next 7 years, but I suspect that games which depend on ultra-fast storage for gameplay will be bottlenecked by GPU/CPU performance on a theoretical Switch 2.

FDE matters a lot. Even loading doesn't stress the SSD as much as I'd expect, but that little 4 core CPU cluster gets slammed. That integration of fast read speeds with specialized decompression hardware is what is going to give the bang for buck more than just pushing the SSD speeds through the roof

Gimme 16 GB of RAM plz. I've been on the "12GB is fine" train for sometime, but the SD convinced me that 16GB would be a real win. Being able to push texture setting to max every where is such a relief, and we're starting to see RT heavy titles really need lots of system RAM as well as GPU RAM.

40hz is better than you think and probably not worth it? 40fps is incredible. It's such a massive leap in how games feel over 30fps. I never use it, because there are few games that can get to 40fps without excessive visual sacrifices over 30fps. And that's me tweaking every setting. Consider the many TVs don't have 40hz support - I expect very few games to support a 40fps mode even if the built in screen supports it, so it's my favorite thing that I think Nintendo shouldn't spend a penny on.

Ergonomics matter. Which is not to say that the Switch or the Steam Deck get it perfect. I miss the SD sticks every time I go back to the Switch. And I hate how close all the buttons are on my Switch, there are games where I wind up controlling the stick with my palm because everything is so cramped. But every time I go back to the Switch my wrists breath a sigh of relief. I love the lack of hot air blowing in my face. The SD OLED improves fan noise a lot but my Switch is silent. I love that I can get custom grips by replacing my Joy-Con. The Switch is more portable, and I can stick it random places without worry about it getting knocked over by nieces.

Make it easier to pick up Nintendo. Do you know how much my Switch screen gets smudged? Not only is there no real place to grip an attached Joy-Con that doesn't make it feel like I'm going to pop off one of the tiny sticks, but the Joy-Con rails are fragile. I've owned multiple Switches and even more Joy-Con and I always wind up in a situation where one of the Joy-Con starts disconnecting during play, because the rail stops connecting snuggly. I'm afraid to apply more stress to the connection, so I pick up the Switch by the tablet. Which means it is smudged all to fuck and back.
 
I wonder how much the Nintendo Select games will be? 19.99, 39.99?
I would guess 29.99 that's half off original MSRP as much as I'd love them to be $19.99 I don't see that happening unless each game is in different pricing tiers.

If that happens Switch Sports and DK are mine!
 
Oh this makes TOTAL sense yet I would have never had thought of this. I looked at that list and thought it was very odd that a lot of it was heavy hits that make no sense to put out of print.
Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if it was 30$ Digital Selects. Game Cards cost money to make. Move some older titles to digital only availability, lower the price and reap some bigger profits at the end of a generation.

Although I'll admit that of course, 3DS got Nintendo Selects, cartridges are definitely less friendly to the concept compared to Wii Optical Disc. Switch cartridges especially seem to bite into profit, so making some older, but still notable games digital only reduces overhead and allows them to better justify the lower price, and the lower price justifies them going digital only.
 
Hit enter too early. Post continued

TV Play matters. I just want to add that I'm a handheld play guy, but the SD has really poor support for the TV. I think inherent to the hybrid concept is the idea that handheld will always be "better" technologically. You can't scale down things like cache or CPU in the same way as the GPU, so those things tend to favor handheld, where you've got the same amount of hardware, but a smaller perf target. With all these little details needing to get right on the form factor and performance balance on handheld, I was reminded that TV isn't just a matter of scaling it "up." Making sure that both experiences are good, both visually and ergonomically are really going to be key here.

I kinda want a gimmick. I love playing with the trackpads? But I rarely use them. Still, it makes me sort hunger for the weird gameplay experiences that only Nintendo can offer me. I don't need them to build the console around it, but I'll spend a hundred bucks over a consoles life-cycle for a few moments of childlike delight that no other sleekly designed piece of corporate product can offer me.
 
This will sound dumb, but I bought Outer Wilds for my Steam Deck, and realized how much port begging that I, personally, saw evaporate when I had another handheld to play games on. I also realized that even though the OLED SD fixed every major issue I had with the Steam Deck, there were still games I would prefer to play on Switch.

The conventional wisdom is that Nintendo doesn't need to seriously consider the Portable PC in its calculus, because those machines are still sub 5 million in sales. I now disagree, in a way that surprises me. Valve has made as close to a "console like" experience on a PC as possible, and it's great, but it still took me an hour to get Control where I wanted it. I don't think it's possible to smooth that experience down without eliminating everything special that the Steam Deck brings to the table.

That leaves a number of places where Nintendo can lean into what makes their device special, above and beyond "gaming handheld." Nintendo doesn't need to offer best-in-class performance to make me prefer playing on their device. Ergonomics, portability, battery life, ease of docking, zero config required, and yes gimmicks are the things that will draw me in.

When it comes to the specific technology, being able to play with some next-gen games on a handheld device, with PC like control over them I've got the following conclusions.

RT is the secret sauce. It's really amazing to see what RT can do to the visual look of a game that has been art-designed around it. Folk worry about how a system that can't match the Series S in TFLOPS is going to age. I am now, more than ever, worried about how well the Series S can age without better RT performance.

DLSS 2 isn't the secret sauce. I'm not saying DLSS 2 is bad - it's amazing. But I'm surprised at how well other upscalers hold up at 2x scaling, on a smaller screen or at a long distance. And they are fast. All upscaling can have interesting interactions with post-processing effects. I've always been kinda dubious of thinking of DLSS as some kinda "FLOP multiplier" but this nipped it in the bud. It's an amazing tool that the other consoles don't have, but what is the "best" upscaling solution is a game-by-game decision.

Fast Storage Matters. A little. The NVMe in the Steam Deck is great, lots of very fast loading times. But in terms of gameplay I've never seen it under serious strain. It's hard to tell how games will evolve over the next 7 years, but I suspect that games which depend on ultra-fast storage for gameplay will be bottlenecked by GPU/CPU performance on a theoretical Switch 2.

FDE matters a lot. Even loading doesn't stress the SSD as much as I'd expect, but that little 4 core CPU cluster gets slammed. That integration of fast read speeds with specialized decompression hardware is what is going to give the bang for buck more than just pushing the SSD speeds through the roof

Gimme 16 GB of RAM plz. I've been on the "12GB is fine" train for sometime, but the SD convinced me that 16GB would be a real win. Being able to push texture setting to max every where is such a relief, and we're starting to see RT heavy titles really need lots of system RAM as well as GPU RAM.

40hz is better than you think and probably not worth it? 40fps is incredible. It's such a massive leap in how games feel over 30fps. I never use it, because there are few games that can get to 40fps without excessive visual sacrifices over 30fps. And that's me tweaking every setting. Consider the many TVs don't have 40hz support - I expect very few games to support a 40fps mode even if the built in screen supports it, so it's my favorite thing that I think Nintendo shouldn't spend a penny on.

Ergonomics matter. Which is not to say that the Switch or the Steam Deck get it perfect. I miss the SD sticks every time I go back to the Switch. And I hate how close all the buttons are on my Switch, there are games where I wind up controlling the stick with my palm because everything is so cramped. But every time I go back to the Switch my wrists breath a sigh of relief. I love the lack of hot air blowing in my face. The SD OLED improves fan noise a lot but my Switch is silent. I love that I can get custom grips by replacing my Joy-Con. The Switch is more portable, and I can stick it random places without worry about it getting knocked over by nieces.

Make it easier to pick up Nintendo. Do you know how much my Switch screen gets smudged? Not only is there no real place to grip an attached Joy-Con that doesn't make it feel like I'm going to pop off one of the tiny sticks, but the Joy-Con rails are fragile. I've owned multiple Switches and even more Joy-Con and I always wind up in a situation where one of the Joy-Con starts disconnecting during play, because the rail stops connecting snuggly. I'm afraid to apply more stress to the connection, so I pick up the Switch by the tablet. Which means it is smudged all to fuck and back.
Honestly I agree with all of this, especially the ergonomics and the RAM amount. Honestly I can deal with visual cutbacks, but soupy textures and character models are a non-starter for me. Being able to keep texture quality high, along with Nvidia's more performant RT hardware allowing for RT to scale down better (I think? Not an area of expertise, but I'd imagine the tensor cores will allow for RT to still be achievable in "miracle ports" despite the massive power delta), will go a long way with hiding visual cutbacks in the type of downports the Switch 2 is likely to get; it'll be the "secret sauce" as you say. Honestly as long as texture quality and pop-in/texture filtering isn't as bad as current Switch titles, that'll solve 99% of my issues. One thing that'll be interesting to see, particularly with last gen ports, is how having double the RAM of a PS4 with half the bandwidth will affect ports. Obvious caveats like more modern tech and bandwidth not being directly comparable across architectures applied, of course.

Regarding the ergonomics, absolutely. My Switch screen is all scratched up and smudged despite it living in my dock 80% of the time because it's so damn hard to pickup without touching the screen. I have gross goblin piano hands so the Switch's size really isn't an issue for me. (Small palms go brrrr.) Even the Joy-Con size isn't too bad for me (although I basically need to use the wrist strap with them if I'm using them sideways) but I would like the Joy-Cons to be more comfortable too.
 
I kinda want a gimmick. I love playing with the trackpads? But I rarely use them. Still, it makes me sort hunger for the weird gameplay experiences that only Nintendo can offer me. I don't need them to build the console around it, but I'll spend a hundred bucks over a consoles life-cycle for a few moments of childlike delight that no other sleekly designed piece of corporate product can offer me.
Welcome back! Speaking of gimmicks. Didn’t that hurt Nintendo with the Wii U GamePad?
 
Please read this staff post before posting.

Furthermore, according to this follow-up post, all off-topic chat will be moderated.
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