Concernt
Optimism is non-negotiable
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But it isn't? Xbox is growing. Xbox is growing... Because of Series S! It's their main source of ecosystem growth at the moment, not even XCloud.
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- Thread starter Dakhil
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But it isn't? Xbox is growing. Xbox is growing... Because of Series S! It's their main source of ecosystem growth at the moment, not even XCloud.
TheRealTalker
Rattata
No, Xbox is growing because of services, subs, and content. Not because of hardware.
But it doesn't matter. Switch 2 (or whatever it is called) is targeting another market entirely. It isn't trying to pretend to be the same as the Series X or PS5.
That and we will have games specifically targeting and designed around its hardware unlike the Series S which is an afterthought.
RennanNT
Bob-omb
Switch has 3 handhelds profiles. The one which have (had?) limited use was the 460Mhz (235.5 GFlops).
Also, you're probably rounding up the docked flops, because 393,2×3÷193,5 = 6.10, not 7.75.
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All this talk about how nothing about the SoC is determined is wild. If you can't trust information (stolen information, no less) from the company making the bloody chip in question that blatantly spells this out, you've lost the plot, plain and simple.
You may as well be asking someone to show their work on an equation as simple as "2+2".
You may as well be asking someone to show their work on an equation as simple as "2+2".
Concernt
Optimism is non-negotiable
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That's like saying "Nintendo is growing because of Nintendo Switch Online and games! Not because of Nintendo Switch!"
Technically true, absolutely not accurate.
TheRealTalker
Rattata
Nintendo doesn't have hardware sales issues.
Their decline is just because they are phasing from one gen to the next.
Normal for platforms near their end cycle. To compare it to Xbox which is in the middle portion of their gen cycle but suffering from hardware declines is like comparing apples and oranges.
Ghostsonplanets
Ghost in the Sales
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You're aware that this would mean the next Nintendo device won't have BC with current Switch games nor would transfer Switch R&D and knowledge, right? Basically the next device would be a reset, blank-slate, from current Switch. Nintendo needs Nvidia if they want to release a Switch sucessor.
OP
OP
TheSentry
Piranha Plant
Man, I bet Phil Spencer can’t wait for the Switch 2 to come out.
Because then if a dev is developing a game for the Switch 2 (which understandably would be lower spec as a handheld device) then developing that same game on Series S won’t seem so much like a burden since they had to take into account both lower end machines.
Basically, there will probably be less complaining.
Unless NG Switch comes packed full of available RAM… then yeah devs will probably still complain about Series S…
Edit: spelling
Because then if a dev is developing a game for the Switch 2 (which understandably would be lower spec as a handheld device) then developing that same game on Series S won’t seem so much like a burden since they had to take into account both lower end machines.
Basically, there will probably be less complaining.
Unless NG Switch comes packed full of available RAM… then yeah devs will probably still complain about Series S…
Edit: spelling
Semi Lazy Gamer
Like Like
Wit devs despising the Series S, I think the next-gen Switch will help the Series S, rather than the other way around.
Z0m3le
Bob-omb
There are 3 GPU clocks developers can use in portable mode. We know that Doom Eternal even switches between these 3 clocks as needed.
Portable 307MHz or 157GFLOPs upto ~240GFLOPs mixed precision
Performance 384MHz or 196GFLOPs upto ~300GFLOPs mixed precision
Boost mode 460MHz or 235GFLOPs upto ~360GFLOPs mixed precision
Docked 768MHz or 393GFLOPs upto ~600GFLOPs mixed precision
MK11 was the first game to officially support 460MHz portably, but it is available.
Turrican3
Rattata
Honest question from a tech-minded (I'm actually a developer, just in a completely unrelated field) but with no game-specific skills at all: why is that the case?
I mean my understanding is that for a good while basically everything gaming-related has been going through (at least) one software layer, with minimal or no direct access to the "metal", so couldn't the new SoC achieve binary compatibility by virtue of a "translating" layer that turns Maxwell GPU calls to Ampere ones or, in the worst case scenario, source-level compatibility through an updated API + recompile?
Or am I totally missing something way more important/complex than that?
Barahir_MJH
Cappy
Prime 4 is a special case because it was originally announced for Switch, Nintendo keeps their promises on these things, and it was well into development for Switch before the Switch 2 would have been past the conceptual stage. I expect there to be some cross-gen for a few years but not for high-profile system sellers. Most big releases will be Switch 2 exclusive after Metroid Prime 4 - maybe there will be an outlier or two like Kirby's Adventure, but it won't be the norm. Software sells hardware, especially where Nintendo first party is concerned. I will be very surprised if the next 3D Mario is playable on Switch 1.
Maybe there was a "Switch +" planned at some point and then dropped, perhaps due to the pandemic. But at this point the ship has sailed on that sort of incremental upgrade and we're not going to get just a 4K 60fps Switch Pro.
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The biggest problem here is that we're doing multipliers for things where multipliers don't actually work. I know we say "6x at minimum" but there's a lot of asterisks there. It assumes a lot of spherical cows to work
The problem is that Switch games have their shaders compiled already and ampere can't read them directly. But you are right in that Nintendo/Nvidia can make a translation layer. It's what's expected to be done
Z0m3le
Bob-omb
Great point, this is something we should all keep in mind, it's actually a pretty common thing for us to talk like this, but for people who come in here not understanding we are just talking about theoretical numbers and not including bottlenecks, this isn't what the system is ultimately capable of, no system in any game uses 100% of it's resources for every frame, there are limitations to everything, what we are doing is simply speculating about potentials.
Turrican3
Rattata
Hmm so that's the major hurdle, I see... thanks.
Hopefully this is something that can be (easily?) overcomed, backwards compatibility is very important to me, especially if it ends up bringing improved performance too on the new platform.
I still really, really hope they finally reintroduce a decent pointing system with no manual recentering needed (HUGE fan of the wiimote pointer here)
Alkraken
Rattata
- Nintendo Switch Visual Improvements – A highly customized version of AMD FidelityFX Super Resolution 2 (FSR 2), tailored specifically for No Man’s Sky on Switch, now provides higher image quality for Switch players. This temporal upscaling technology has been combined with dynamic resolution scaling to offer not only a boost to visual quality, but also improved and smoother framerates. Learn more about FSR 2 on the AMD site.
TomNookYankees
Koopa
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- He/Him
Xbox Series combined current monthly sales are lower than the Switch's current monthly sales. Their console side has absolutely been failing to meet sales expectations, something even Phil Spencer has acknowledged.
Dekuman
Starman
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- He/Him/His
Is this from a recent nms patch note? Link
please
Alkraken
Rattata
Is this from a recent nms patch note? Link
No Man’s Sky ‘Echoes’ update now available
Hello Games has released the “Echoes” (version 4.4) update for No Man’s Sky.
www.gematsu.com
Joy-Boy
Bob-omb
Devs might not like Series S, but I'm sure the higher ups see millions of an install base as a good thing and totally worth sacrifcing some fidelity for.
There's no shot Microsoft is going to break the promise that Series S is a current gen system that will let you play every game Series X can.
It would be a disaster on the level of Nintendo coming out and saying "BTW Tears of the Kingdom is exclusive to the Switch OLED only, Please understand".
Breaking the trust of the consumer on that level would never fly.
MP!
Like Like
I'd like to take a bit of time and outline from an art/development perspective what goes into reworking a game for a next gen patch. In this case we'll assume the developer cares enough to rework assets and not just set new frames and resolution targets. Cross gen titles I think are more likely to be reworked because you're still in development anyway and it would be even less of a hassle since all your assets and files are right there in front of you. Either way it wouldn't be starting from scratch.
Polygons
It is fairly common practice to work high and export low. In the case of meshes, it is a matter of opening the zbrush sculpt, retoping the mesh (simplifying, and having good mesh flow), and exporting that mesh. It's kind of a process and I wouldn't expect this to be done across the board... maybe for main characters and other important assets. Sometimes the high poly version is even in the files but the engine is told to use the low poly stuff in LOD settings so maybe even increasing LOD settings can help here.
Textures
Assuming they've kept the working files, it's as simple as opening the Substance Painter files (or whatever program) and re-exporting what they need (albedo, rough, normal etc) in a higher resolution. Then importing that into the engine to replace the existing lower resolution files. There are a lot of textures in a game so it would be a matter of effort and time but it's not super hard.
Draw Distance and LODs
This is as simple as tweaking a value assigned to certain assets which tells the engine when to use them. (usually determined by how close to the camera they should change). You kind of fiddle with it until you like the results.
Lighting
I admit I don't know a lot about lighting, especially ray tracing and how to set up and configure it or it's workflow. Though I do know It probably takes a lighting artist to go scene by scene and area by area to make adjustments whatever those are. I know that switch has limited lighting capabilities compared to even PS4 and xbone. If the game was on multiple platforms before then maybe they could re-enable existing lights that switch couldn't render. If they're going to rebuild lighting altogether that seems like a huge task and would take effort and time. Maybe others could talk about the Lighting workflow and how it differs from baked to RT, and what it would take.
Animation
Believe it or not animation is usually heavily compressed, especially on switch. Some of it may require a re-import of already existing anim assets. But it may be possible to just change the compression settings depending on the method used. Not too big of a deal, this could be automated even.
Resolution and Framerate
This could be a pretty simple adjustment. Changing the set max resolution isn't a huge issue but making sure the game performs at the resolution would take testing. Same with setting a new target framerate.
DLSS
From what I understand DLSS replaces the TAA in the rendering pipeline. So if your engine supports Temporal Anti Aliasing, then with some tweaks it can support DLSS. It's a matter of piping the information DLSS needs from the engine to the program. A couple weeks of tweaking/testing maybe.
When all is said and done like with any development changes you'd need to recompile the code and cook the build, and Q/A for the changes to make sure everything is running right, and adjust for quality. I hope this helps people understand the process of development a bit more. If anyone has more insight please chime in.
Polygons
It is fairly common practice to work high and export low. In the case of meshes, it is a matter of opening the zbrush sculpt, retoping the mesh (simplifying, and having good mesh flow), and exporting that mesh. It's kind of a process and I wouldn't expect this to be done across the board... maybe for main characters and other important assets. Sometimes the high poly version is even in the files but the engine is told to use the low poly stuff in LOD settings so maybe even increasing LOD settings can help here.
Textures
Assuming they've kept the working files, it's as simple as opening the Substance Painter files (or whatever program) and re-exporting what they need (albedo, rough, normal etc) in a higher resolution. Then importing that into the engine to replace the existing lower resolution files. There are a lot of textures in a game so it would be a matter of effort and time but it's not super hard.
Draw Distance and LODs
This is as simple as tweaking a value assigned to certain assets which tells the engine when to use them. (usually determined by how close to the camera they should change). You kind of fiddle with it until you like the results.
Lighting
I admit I don't know a lot about lighting, especially ray tracing and how to set up and configure it or it's workflow. Though I do know It probably takes a lighting artist to go scene by scene and area by area to make adjustments whatever those are. I know that switch has limited lighting capabilities compared to even PS4 and xbone. If the game was on multiple platforms before then maybe they could re-enable existing lights that switch couldn't render. If they're going to rebuild lighting altogether that seems like a huge task and would take effort and time. Maybe others could talk about the Lighting workflow and how it differs from baked to RT, and what it would take.
Animation
Believe it or not animation is usually heavily compressed, especially on switch. Some of it may require a re-import of already existing anim assets. But it may be possible to just change the compression settings depending on the method used. Not too big of a deal, this could be automated even.
Resolution and Framerate
This could be a pretty simple adjustment. Changing the set max resolution isn't a huge issue but making sure the game performs at the resolution would take testing. Same with setting a new target framerate.
DLSS
From what I understand DLSS replaces the TAA in the rendering pipeline. So if your engine supports Temporal Anti Aliasing, then with some tweaks it can support DLSS. It's a matter of piping the information DLSS needs from the engine to the program. A couple weeks of tweaking/testing maybe.
When all is said and done like with any development changes you'd need to recompile the code and cook the build, and Q/A for the changes to make sure everything is running right, and adjust for quality. I hope this helps people understand the process of development a bit more. If anyone has more insight please chime in.
I don't want to say it's easy to overcome, but it's not something that's new and unusual. hell, emulators have been getting around this for years already. the very people who made the system isn't going to have the same amount of difficulty
Dekuman
Starman
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I wonder how devs optimize for PC or does it get farmed out. Series S specs isn't far out from a lot of PCs and laptop gaming setups. The 10GB of RAM might be a bit less.once you add in GPU VRAM and system RAM on PC but that's also because windows easily eat.up a huge chunk of that before you even have an app or browser open.
No doubt devs would feel constrained but I can't imagine any publisher doing multiplats would tell the devs not to worry about targeting 4TF 10GB gaming devices
Turrican3
Rattata
Oh absolutely, and by the way I didn't imply you were claiming it was going to be an easy task (I have no idea), I apologize if I gave that impression - English isn't my native language so misunderstandings can happen all the time!
ShadowFox08
Paratroopa
The funny thing is (I'm gonna play devil's advocate here), if Nintendo tries to be as similar as Switch as possible with Drake in regards to power savings and clockspeeds+discrepancy, I could totally see 422Mhz as the lowest base clock used to start off with, to maximize battery life (like Switch's 307Hz). But of course games like botw and Mk11 existed and Nintendo had an additional profile for switch (for Mk11) at 450mHz, which was roughly 50% higher than the base handheld speed.
So, I could totally see 422Mhz (1.3 tflops), 633Mhz (1.95), and 1055Mhz (3.25 tflops) on Drake. Drake doesn't need an exact 2.5x discrepancy between the lowest and highest speeds like Switch, but it allows a 720p to 1080p jump with some wiggle room left over. I expect 2.5x minimum though.
Hopefully handheld speeds give us OG switch battery life, which I would be more than happy with. It's a shame future nodes will have diminishing efficiency returns though. We likely won't see that huge efficiency gain going from 20 to 16/12 from Erista to Mariko.
Also here's hoping RAM bandwidth available is 68GB/s and 102 GB/s or 88 GB/s, 102 GB/s and 134 GB/s (
) for handstand and docked profiles.Besides that.. Near 2 tflops on a handheld with a respectable power draw (even at 15 watts with all of Switch 2's bells and whistles) and battery life is mind blowing to me. It took 10 years to get ballpark Xbox 360 GPU specs in a mobile device (TX1). I kinda refuse to believe until I see it for myself.
The only thing I feel really confident about is that Nintendo will at least aim for OG Switch battery life and a similar power draw. Perhaps Switch 2 will have higher power draw in handheld mode with better cooling tech and a bigger battery to make up for it, to give it OG switch to Switch lite battery life. And they will go from there. But handheld mode will always be the LCD.
Watch them refresh Series S like Xbone ( X Bone to X Bone One S) with 20-25% more RAM bandwidth or RAM.. >_>
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Yes, a last gen title that the "HD twins" had trouble running the game. Even the "4k" twins struggle to run the game at times that they run at a 1728p in quality mode with dsr on and 1440p with dsr on performance mode...Digital foundry starts talking about resolution at the 3:50 mark
The new DLC which adds even more graphical effects, lighting, and textures is taxing on the ps5/series x. There is still time to optimize the game for the "4k" consoles but for a last gen game it still looks better than a lot of current gen game releases.
If CD projket red could get this game running on the Switch 2 at 1080p 60fps with no RT or 1440p 30fps with full Rat enabled. I would be beyond impressed.
If CD projket red could get this game running on the switch 2 with RT i would shocked.
Goodtwin
Like Like
I wouldn't expect the flood gates to open immediately, but now that we know dev kits are going out to developers and Nintendo's Gamescom presence seems entirely focused on closed door meetings, its extremely likely that there is going to be a significant increase in the number of people who have been briefed on the SNG. I expect the same to be true with TGS. Within a couple months I suspect various members in the media will have enough information to start reporting inside information.
Zelda BotW and Super Mario Odyssey were already using that performance profile before MK11. I'm not sure if it wasnt a performance profile available to third parties prior to MK11, but I know for certain Zelda BotW and Mario Odyssey use the 460Mhz profile.
Concernt
Optimism is non-negotiable
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The brand new Rodent Engine brings us thirty time the detail, with special attention to NPC AI in large swarms, fur and hair physics, and up to 20% more yellowing of the teeth.
lattjeful
Like Like
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- he/him
To expand on this, here's a comparison shot straight from the horse's mouth.
Before:
After:
ShadowFox08
Paratroopa
It absolutely matters because
1. Switch 2 will be constantly compared to the LCD (X Series S) with ports since they will be close in specs.
2. Whether Nintendo openly talks about competing with Sony and MS or not, they're all competing for consumer time and money in the long run in the same home console market anyway, and they will share some ports, even if they are bared some third party exclusives due to power. But X series S being the LCD actually works in their favor. I suspect CPU will be the biggest bottleneck in regards to ports and head to head competition vs X series S too.
It's very much an apples to apples comparison, much more than say Switch vs Steam deck, where SD is a portable PC and not a gaming console, and isn't directly competing for market share. Though they do all want our time and money, which they know we have a finite amount of.
But yes, the switch is/was competing with xbone and PS4 for market share, despite the power discrepancy. Switch 2 will close the gap and have a similar power gap or even smaller than switch vs xbone/ps4. It's not that different from phones competing with each other for market share.
Edit: I want to add that the handheld factor is /the major appeal. Getting respectable performance in multiplatform games where handheld mode is comparable to X series S but at say 720p (DLSS or not), is going to draw in more people to choose a port of the Switch 2 vs Series S.
I'm honestly shocked that there are quite a decent amount of switch games that actually outperform xbone and PS4 versions sales for multiplatform games. Of course performance matters. I can easily see RDR on switch beat PS4 sales of the handheld factor. But in a more fair scenario where it's pushed more on current gen hardware, it remains to be seen. If the difference in performance is too great, then yeah switch 2 version won't sell nearly as much. But it will still take some of the market. People will weigh the handheld aspect of it, as well as some people like me who only one a single console per generation.
I don't expect switch 2 to suddenly sell 10 million copies of the next cod games. There's a long hill battle for some franchises. As long as the performance isn't totally crap and there are just as many online features, it will be in a good position.
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D
Deleted member 887
Guest
Basic due diligence requires they at least consider a non-Nvidia solution. The things you are saying are absolutely true, and it's the job of the due-diligence process to put together a report that explains that clearly in executive speak, showing the loss of BC On related sales outstripping the savings of going with, say, Qualcomm.
Every now and then, the due diligence strawman wins. An example would be the Switch itself, where the TX1 was the due diligence option. We're talking about a 2024 release, T239's specs leaked in 2022. Imagine if the Mont Blanc design had leaked in 2014, right before Nintendo made the move to Nvidia.
All that said, I think that ship sailed by September last year. I can think of one, single example of a product that made it to market, whose chip made it to tape out, that saw any kind of "back to the drawing board" retrenchment.
Just adding to Ol' Footsie's answer here.
Shaders are programs that run on the GPU, and just like programs on the CPU, they've gotta be compiled. Unlike the CPU, shaders on PC are generally compiled just-in-time, the moment the shader is needed, rather than ahead-of-time. There are both technical and historical reasons for this, but the big one is that, unlike x86 or ARM, there is no standardized instruction set for GPUs. AMD, Nvidia, Intel are completely different, and in fact, aren't even public.
AMD has chosen to keep their ISA backwards compatible for the last 11 years. This makes the silicon more complicated, as they have to support old instructions that might be superseded by more modern solutions, or might run poorly on the more modern GPU design, but it also means that they can more easily reuse their investment in their compiler software.
Nvidia has chosen to rethink their ISA every generation. This is a boon to the hardware design, because they can kick old silicon to the curb, and then build the optimal design for the new ISA. But their shader compiler has to support lots of neither backward nor forward compatible strains of the ISA.
For PC gaming, there is no difference for the player. Shaders are compiled just-in-time regardless. This has become a problem in recent years as mid-game stutters while the shader's get compiled are becoming more and more common, but it's equally bad on AMD and Nvidia.
On the server side, AMD's solution is nicer, but in practice, you're recompiling your software often enough that Nvidia's solution isn't exactly painful.
But on the consoles, AMD's solution is a clear winner. In the console space, you generally compile your shaders ahead-of-time. You've only got one hardware target, and you're heavily optimizing for that hardware anyway. By compiling ahead of time you not only eliminate the stutter that PCs have, you can take longer to do the compile, generating a higher quality, more optimized shader binary.
Switch games have all these embedded, compiled shaders, that won't run on any non-Maxwell GPU. Emulation solves this problem all the time - they capture the shader before it hits the GPU, de-compile the binary back to the source code, and then recompile it for the GPU underneath. But that takes a lot of CPU power, and introduces that dreaded stutter that PC games suffer from.
Nvidia and Nintendo will need to solve that for the Successor. Their advantage is that, unlike PC emulators, they only have one target machine to run on. Their disadvantage is they have to do this with what is basically a tablet CPU, and unlike PC emulation, their audience expects little-to-no stutter.
Giancarlo
Nintendo connoiseur
GameDriver is coming to Switch
GameDriver Announces Nintendo Middleware Partnership to Enhance Game Development on Nintendo Switch
GameDriver announces it is now a middleware tools provider available for the Nintendo Switch system, further empowering developers for Nintendo Switch
www.businesswire.com
Codename_Steam
Cappy
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- He/Him
Do we know what process node Mont Blanc was using?
10k
Nintendo Switch RTX
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- He/Him
Most of us because we want it to finally be that Nintendo hardware that isn't skipped by AAA devs. We want Switch 2 to be the baseline.
NateDrake
Chain Chomp
It'll be a case of cross-checking all details and getting clearance to share any information provided. Certain bits are told is strict confidence & aren't reported until approval is given by a contact/source. Some may opt to wait until TGS to get further information.
I don't think it ever got past paper specs
GPKs3
Koopa
It's very important to many, including myself. BC is my biggest hope for the successor. I just can't imagine a Switch 2 with no BC, especially when you consider Nintendo's favorable track record with BC and the install base/software sales for Switch.
This was always going to happen in my eyes. They do not want the PS5 getting timed exclusives because of a small feature like splitscreen.
They'll thumb their nose at the series s owners a bit because the stories about xbox as a whole missing out on a game the Ps5 gets is worse for the broad appeal of the xbox. Don't take an unnecessary L in a time when you are trying to flip the page on the brand starting next month.
They'll thumb their nose at the series s owners a bit because the stories about xbox as a whole missing out on a game the Ps5 gets is worse for the broad appeal of the xbox. Don't take an unnecessary L in a time when you are trying to flip the page on the brand starting next month.
Turrican3
Rattata
Thanks for the detailed, yet slightly worrying answer.
I wonder though, since you're talking about stutter, hence I assume we're in the tens, maybe hundreds of milliseconds range, whether some kind of hybrid workaround would be feasible: again, totally (un)educated guess on my part, but would developers NOT willing to fully recompile their games be able to implement some kind of pre-run on-the-fly recompilation of the shaders?
Does this even make sense? Sorry if it sounds dumb, I'm just trying to picture what could end up being the actual solution for backwards compatibility.
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Oof, just realized that if BC is met halfway with only being able to bring your digital library over…I wont be able to play Mario 3D all stars on the new console, I got it physically. 
GPKs3
Koopa
Nintendo goofed and left some good money on the table making it a limited release. At least make the game available on the eShop if nothing else. Easy money!Oof, just realized that if BC is met halfway with only being able to bring your digital library over…I wont be able to play Mario 3D all stars on the new console, I got it physically.
LiC
Member
I doubt they really considered doing anything else this time. In the long-term, yes, they will consider other options and not just stick with Nvidia indefinitely by default, but this is only one system into a new hardware paradigm, which has been massively successful. The time frame is too short, and the successor likely too similar, for there to have been any serious consideration of breaking the status quo yet.
BC won't be digital only. But even if it was, Nintendo could easily implement a system for registering physical games to a Nintendo Account and permit that account to redownload them digitally on the new hardware.Oof, just realized that if BC is met halfway with only being able to bring your digital library over…I wont be able to play Mario 3D all stars on the new console, I got it physically.
Joy-Boy
Bob-omb
Since Mario 64 made it to NSO, I imagine the plan was/is to make them all avaliable in some other form down the road.
A random Gamecube shadowdrop for Sunshine can happen whenever, and for Galaxy they can do the same thing as Pikmin, physical dual pack of Galaxy 1/2 with the option to buy them seprate digitally
Is it totally unnessesary when they could have simply just left 3DAS on shelves and been done with it? Yes, but here we are
GPKs3
Koopa
I actually like this approach and would be okay with it.
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