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This would've had weight if Xbox hardware wasn't on the decline.
But it isn't? Xbox is growing. Xbox is growing... Because of Series S! It's their main source of ecosystem growth at the moment, not even XCloud.
This would've had weight if Xbox hardware wasn't on the decline.
No, Xbox is growing because of services, subs, and content. Not because of hardware.But it isn't? Xbox is growing. Xbox is growing... Because of Series S! It's their main source of ecosystem growth at the moment, not even XCloud.
Switch has 3 handhelds profiles. The one which have (had?) limited use was the 460Mhz (235.5 GFlops).I meant 3x the current Switch GPU's docked performance for Switch 2's handheld GPU performance.
3x Switch GPU docked performance in handheld mode would also make Switch 2 a 9x leap in power over Switch in handheld mode considering the Switch handheld mode is 157.3gflops as standard and 193.5gflops (when special permission is asked for from Nintendo but isn't always given which would still be a x7.75 leap).
No, Xbox is growing because of services, subs, and content. Not because of hardware.
Nintendo doesn't have hardware sales issues.That's like saying "Nintendo is growing because of Nintendo Switch Online and games! Not because of Nintendo Switch!"
Technically true, absolutely not accurate.
You're aware that this would mean the next Nintendo device won't have BC with current Switch games nor would transfer Switch R&D and knowledge, right? Basically the next device would be a reset, blank-slate, from current Switch. Nintendo needs Nvidia if they want to release a Switch sucessor.They would have invested in concurrent solutions all along since 2019. We just wouldn't know about them.
Eurogamer interviewed Phil Spencer, and his answer regarding Series S may be relevant to our hardware discussion:
The Lite model, despite its lower sales figure, plays a similar strategic role. Until Nintendo is able to release a low-cost NG Lite, it will most likely remain in the product lineup. I understand that some want Nintendo to drop support for the OG to incentivize users to move on, but personally I don’t think that’d be the company’s strategy.
- Spencer claimed that there’s no Series S parity requirement, and implied that it’s only a fan theory.
- MS is committed to supporting Series S because it’s important to have a low entry price point.
Because a low entry point is crucial (not to mention 129MM install base), Nintendo probably will maintain a steady cross-gen output for the OG models until the Lite NG comes out. As Spencer suggested, certain games may have to cut features on the OG (and run like a potato), but customers understand that they have an old console. This itself is an incentive for the users to upgrade, without outright cutting off the install base.
There are 3 GPU clocks developers can use in portable mode. We know that Doom Eternal even switches between these 3 clocks as needed.I meant 3x the current Switch GPU's docked performance for Switch 2's handheld GPU performance.
3x Switch GPU docked performance in handheld mode would also make Switch 2 a 9x leap in power over Switch in handheld mode considering the Switch handheld mode is 157.3gflops as standard and 193.5gflops (when special permission is asked for from Nintendo but isn't always given which would still be a x7.75 leap).
So saying Switch 2's GPU performance in handheld mode will be 3x Switch's GPU's docked mode is a very big expectation especially considering Nintendo will be battery / size / cooling / price sensitive in terms of Switch 2 as a product and want it to be as sleek / cool / $399 all while having a 3 hour battery life at bare minimum.
We are not seeing the usual 10x leap in tech power with every passing console generation anymore like from PS1 to PS2 to PS3. PS4 to PS5 is around a 5x leap (best case scenario) in GPU flops. Now do we really think Nintendo are going to hit a 9x leap in GPU compute in a handheld form factor especially when you consider they have DLSS as a fall back once the system is docked so in turn the handheld GPU flops don't need to be as high to then double when docked versus if they did not have access to DLSS when the console was docked.
I'm starting to sound like Scott Steiner's math now :3
Drake's GPU doesn't have the same architecture as the switch, It has a much newer one (Switch 1 Maxwell versus Drake Ampere) that literally cannot run switch games 1 at all.
Prime 4 is a special case because it was originally announced for Switch, Nintendo keeps their promises on these things, and it was well into development for Switch before the Switch 2 would have been past the conceptual stage. I expect there to be some cross-gen for a few years but not for high-profile system sellers. Most big releases will be Switch 2 exclusive after Metroid Prime 4 - maybe there will be an outlier or two like Kirby's Adventure, but it won't be the norm. Software sells hardware, especially where Nintendo first party is concerned. I will be very surprised if the next 3D Mario is playable on Switch 1.It will be like modern pc development except Nintendo is only optimizing for two profiles. Starfield, for example, is releasing to minimum specs of a gpu from
2016 and a cpu from 2015. People will also be playing it on their rtx4090 and 12 core cpu from 2022. It’s fundamentally the same game.
Why wouldn’t Nintendo approach their game development be like this for most their games over the next 5 years or so?
We all agree this is what will be done with the eventual Metroid Prime 4 release, yes? They are going to take the game they have been developing on the Tx1+ and use the power of t239 to make it look and run a lot better for that machine.
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Heck, even if it’s treated and positioned exactly like a ps5 and it’s made clear it’s a gen breaking next gen console successor as it’s clear the ps5 was for the ps4/pro…you will at least agree the “cross gen” support for the OLED and Lite will be much longer than it is with the ps4 and ps4 pro…right?
The biggest problem here is that we're doing multipliers for things where multipliers don't actually work. I know we say "6x at minimum" but there's a lot of asterisks there. It assumes a lot of spherical cows to workI meant 3x the current Switch GPU's docked performance for Switch 2's handheld GPU performance.
3x Switch GPU docked performance in handheld mode would also make Switch 2 a 9x leap in power over Switch in handheld mode considering the Switch handheld mode is 157.3gflops as standard and 193.5gflops (when special permission is asked for from Nintendo but isn't always given which would still be a x7.75 leap).
So saying Switch 2's GPU performance in handheld mode will be 3x Switch's GPU's docked mode is a very big expectation especially considering Nintendo will be battery / size / cooling / price sensitive in terms of Switch 2 as a product and want it to be as sleek / cool / $399 all while having a 3 hour battery life at bare minimum.
We are not seeing the usual 10x leap in tech power with every passing console generation anymore like from PS1 to PS2 to PS3. PS4 to PS5 is around a 5x leap (best case scenario) in GPU flops. Now do we really think Nintendo are going to hit a 9x leap in GPU compute in a handheld form factor especially when you consider they have DLSS as a fall back once the system is docked so in turn the handheld GPU flops don't need to be as high to then double when docked versus if they did not have access to DLSS when the console was docked.
I'm starting to sound like Scott Steiner's math now :3
The problem is that Switch games have their shaders compiled already and ampere can't read them directly. But you are right in that Nintendo/Nvidia can make a translation layer. It's what's expected to be doneHonest question from a tech-minded (I'm actually a developer, just in a completely unrelated field) but with no game-specific skills at all: why is that the case?
I mean my understanding is that for a good while basically everything gaming-related has been going through (at least) one software layer, with minimal or no direct access to the "metal", so couldn't the new SoC achieve binary compatibility by virtue of a "translating" layer that turns Maxwell GPU calls to Ampere ones or, in the worst case scenario, source-level compatibility through an updated API + recompile?
Or am I totally missing something way more important/complex than that?
Great point, this is something we should all keep in mind, it's actually a pretty common thing for us to talk like this, but for people who come in here not understanding we are just talking about theoretical numbers and not including bottlenecks, this isn't what the system is ultimately capable of, no system in any game uses 100% of it's resources for every frame, there are limitations to everything, what we are doing is simply speculating about potentials.The biggest problem here is that we're doing multipliers for things where multipliers don't actually work. I know we say "6x at minimum" but there's a lot of asterisks there. It assumes a lot of spherical cows to work
The problem is that Switch games have their shaders compiled already and ampere can't read them directly. But you are right in that Nintendo/Nvidia can make a translation layer. It's what's expected to be done
Xbox Series combined current monthly sales are lower than the Switch's current monthly sales. Their console side has absolutely been failing to meet sales expectations, something even Phil Spencer has acknowledged.That's like saying "Nintendo is growing because of Nintendo Switch Online and games! Not because of Nintendo Switch!"
Technically true, absolutely not accurate.
Is this from a recent nms patch note? Link please
- Nintendo Switch Visual Improvements – A highly customized version of AMD FidelityFX Super Resolution 2 (FSR 2), tailored specifically for No Man’s Sky on Switch, now provides higher image quality for Switch players. This temporal upscaling technology has been combined with dynamic resolution scaling to offer not only a boost to visual quality, but also improved and smoother framerates. Learn more about FSR 2 on the AMD site.
Is this from a recent nms patch note? Link please
I don't want to say it's easy to overcome, but it's not something that's new and unusual. hell, emulators have been getting around this for years already. the very people who made the system isn't going to have the same amount of difficultyHmm so that's the major hurdle, I see... thanks.
Hopefully this is something that can be (easily?) overcomed, backwards compatibility is very important to me, especially if it ends up bringing improved performance too on the new platform.
I still really, really hope they finally reintroduce a decent pointing system with no manual recentering needed (HUGE fan of the wiimote pointer here)
I don't want to say it's easy to overcome, but it's not something that's new and unusual.
The funny thing is (I'm gonna play devil's advocate here), if Nintendo tries to be as similar as Switch as possible with Drake in regards to power savings and clockspeeds+discrepancy, I could totally see 422Mhz as the lowest base clock used to start off with, to maximize battery life (like Switch's 307Hz). But of course games like botw and Mk11 existed and Nintendo had an additional profile for switch (for Mk11) at 450mHz, which was roughly 50% higher than the base handheld speed.The GPU, most people speculated 768 Cuda Cores, I was estimating 1024 Cuda Cores just based on 8nm transistor counts that would fit in a similar area to TX1... Then the data leak happened and we see it is actually 1536 Cuda Cores, the GPU here is SIX times bigger than Tegra X1, you mention portable performance of Switch 2 not being 3 times faster than Switch, but realistically, to get to 3x the raw performance of docked Switch, the GPU clock could be as low as Orin 8nm's lowest GPU clock of 422MHz, which offers 1.3TFLOPs for portable gaming here... Ampere also has features that help that 1.3TFLOPs match the PS4 in raw power, Variable Rate Shading, Tile based rendering, and Mesh shaders, all being the biggest contributors. You then throw DLSS on top, that is a drastic improvement to portable performance, and that is on 422MHz, a TSMC 4N T239 chip (process node based on Thraktor's estimates) should push the portable clock up much higher, Switch uses 460MHz on the 2D transistor 20nm chip for it's GPU, here we are probably looking at ~600MHz or 1843GFLOPs (same as PS4 before architecture is taken into account), and realistically the data breach could have very possibly leaked the portable clock of 660MHz, which puts the portable performance at just over 2TFLOPs. Tegra X1 is based on a spring 2015 chip on a bad node, this is basically 10 years later, the ability to hit 4 to 5 times the raw performance of Tegra X1 in portable mode without exceeding Nintendo's power requirements (which none of us know), is fairly easy to do by accident, and given the size of T239, there is no point in not drastically exceeding it's performance.
This would've had weight if Xbox hardware wasn't on the decline.
Series S though is the better selling console of the two SKUS, even though some regions for some time only had the Series S option.
As for hardware... Seems like devs are letting their frustrations known:
Unlike the Switch or hybrid market that Nintendo occupies, the Series S is trying to fit in the traditional console market that AAA tech pushing devs want to make games for. It is different then what Nintendo occupies or aims for.
Yes, a last gen title that the "HD twins" had trouble running the game. Even the "4k" twins struggle to run the game at times that they run at a 1728p in quality mode with dsr on and 1440p with dsr on performance mode...Digital foundry starts talking about resolution at the 3:50 markCP2077 IS a last gen title, though.
No one (or outlet) is going to rush to share or report anything they get told during Gamescom.
MK11 was the first game to officially support 460MHz portably, but it is available.
The brand new Rodent Engine brings us thirty time the detail, with special attention to NPC AI in large swarms, fur and hair physics, and up to 20% more yellowing of the teeth.full Rat enabled
To expand on this, here's a comparison shot straight from the horse's mouth.
- Nintendo Switch Visual Improvements – A highly customized version of AMD FidelityFX Super Resolution 2 (FSR 2), tailored specifically for No Man’s Sky on Switch, now provides higher image quality for Switch players. This temporal upscaling technology has been combined with dynamic resolution scaling to offer not only a boost to visual quality, but also improved and smoother framerates. Learn more about FSR 2 on the AMD site.
No, Xbox is growing because of services, subs, and content. Not because of hardware.
But it doesn't matter. Switch 2 (or whatever it is called) is targeting another market entirely. It isn't trying to pretend to be the same as the Series X or PS5.
That and we will have games specifically targeting and designed around its hardware unlike the Series S which is an afterthought.
Basic due diligence requires they at least consider a non-Nvidia solution. The things you are saying are absolutely true, and it's the job of the due-diligence process to put together a report that explains that clearly in executive speak, showing the loss of BC On related sales outstripping the savings of going with, say, Qualcomm.You're aware that this would mean the next Nintendo device won't have BC with current Switch games nor would transfer Switch R&D and knowledge, right? Basically the next device would be a reset, blank-slate, from current Switch. Nintendo needs Nvidia if they want to release a Switch sucessor.
Just adding to Ol' Footsie's answer here.Honest question from a tech-minded (I'm actually a developer, just in a completely unrelated field) but with no game-specific skills at all: why is that the case?
Most of us because we want it to finally be that Nintendo hardware that isn't skipped by AAA devs. We want Switch 2 to be the baseline.Who is comparing Switch Successor to a Series S?
It'll be a case of cross-checking all details and getting clearance to share any information provided. Certain bits are told is strict confidence & aren't reported until approval is given by a contact/source. Some may opt to wait until TGS to get further information.I wouldn't expect the flood gates to open immediately, but now that we know dev kits are going out to developers and Nintendo's Gamescom presence seems entirely focused on closed door meetings, its extremely likely that there is going to be a significant increase in the number of people who have been briefed on the SNG. I expect the same to be true with TGS. Within a couple months I suspect various members in the media will have enough information to start reporting inside information.
Zelda BotW and Super Mario Odyssey were already using that performance profile before MK11. I'm not sure if it wasnt a performance profile available to third parties prior to MK11, but I know for certain Zelda BotW and Mario Odyssey use the 460Mhz profile.
I don't think it ever got past paper specsDo we know what process node Mont Blanc was using?
It's very important to many, including myself. BC is my biggest hope for the successor. I just can't imagine a Switch 2 with no BC, especially when you consider Nintendo's favorable track record with BC and the install base/software sales for Switch.Hmm so that's the major hurdle, I see... thanks.
Hopefully this is something that can be (easily?) overcomed, backwards compatibility is very important to me, especially if it ends up bringing improved performance too on the new platform.
I still really, really hope they finally reintroduce a decent pointing system with no manual recentering needed (HUGE fan of the wiimote pointer here)
Super happy to confirm that after meeting @XboxP3 yesterday, we’ve found a solution that allows us to bring Baldur’s Gate 3 to Xbox players this year still, something we’ve been working towards for quite some time.
All improvements will be there, with split-screen coop on Series X. Series S will not feature split-screen coop, but will also include cross-save progression between Steam and Xbox Series.
Just adding to Ol' Footsie's answer here
Nintendo goofed and left some good money on the table making it a limited release. At least make the game available on the eShop if nothing else. Easy money!Oof, just realized that if BC is met halfway with only being able to bring your digital library over…I wont be able to play Mario 3D all stars on the new console, I got it physically.
I doubt they really considered doing anything else this time. In the long-term, yes, they will consider other options and not just stick with Nvidia indefinitely by default, but this is only one system into a new hardware paradigm, which has been massively successful. The time frame is too short, and the successor likely too similar, for there to have been any serious consideration of breaking the status quo yet.Basic due diligence requires they at least consider a non-Nvidia solution. The things you are saying are absolutely true, and it's the job of the due-diligence process to put together a report that explains that clearly in executive speak, showing the loss of BC On related sales outstripping the savings of going with, say, Qualcomm.
BC won't be digital only. But even if it was, Nintendo could easily implement a system for registering physical games to a Nintendo Account and permit that account to redownload them digitally on the new hardware.Oof, just realized that if BC is met halfway with only being able to bring your digital library over…I wont be able to play Mario 3D all stars on the new console, I got it physically.
Since Mario 64 made it to NSO, I imagine the plan was/is to make them all avaliable in some other form down the road.Nintendo goofed and left some good money on the table making it a limited release. At least make the game available on the eShop if nothing else. Easy money!
I actually like this approach and would be okay with it.Since Mario 64 made it to NSO, I imagine the plan was/is to make them all avaliable in some other form down the road.
A random Gamecube shadowdrop for Sunshine can happen whenever, and for Galaxy they can do the same thing as Pikmin, physical dual pack of Galaxy 1/2 with the option to buy them seprate digitally
Is it totally unnessesary when they could have simply just left 3DAS on shelves and been done with it? Yes, but here we are