• Hey everyone, staff have documented a list of banned content and subject matter that we feel are not consistent with site values, and don't make sense to host discussion of on Famiboards. This list (and the relevant reasoning per item) is viewable here.

StarTopic Future Nintendo Hardware & Technology Speculation & Discussion |ST| (Read the staff posts before commenting!)

I would say UFS is almost guaranteed. Even ignoring anything to do with performance, Nintendo presumably want to keep selling Switch NG for 6+ years, which means they'll need to be able to continue buying parts for it for that long (or introduce hardware revisions if they can't). Only 13% of phones reviewed by Notebookcheck in 2022 used eMMC, and as both Qualcomm and Mediatek have stopped supporting it in their new SoCs, it's not going to last much longer in the smartphone market. That's a pretty big issue for Nintendo using it in a new console, because they'd quickly become the only customer for high capacity eMMC, meaning they'd either need to pay over-the-odds to keep it in production, or introduce an early revision of the console which uses UFS instead.

Regarding RAM, there aren't any leaks or reliable rumours about RAM quantity, but both the Nvidia leak and Linux commits indicate a 128-bit memory bus, most likely LPDDR5 (although I don't think LPDDR5X is completely ruled out). The Switch had a 64-bit memory bus and used two 32-bit 2GB LPDDR4 modules, which were switched to LPDDR4X on Mariko models. The change to 128-bit is important, because Nintendo will now need to use a pair of 64-bit LPDDR5 modules. Entry level and mid-range phones typically use 32-bit memory modules, whereas only high-end phones will use 64-bit modules. Given high-end phones usually have more RAM than lower end phones, this means 64-bit modules aren't usually available in lower capacities like 32-bit modules are.

In the case of LPDDR5, I'm not aware of any phone which uses a 4GB 64-bit LPDDR5 module. The M2 MacBook Air in the 8GB configuration uses a pair of 4GB 64-bit LPDDR5 chips, but I don't believe they're standard LPDDR5 modules, as they're on-package with the M2. A handful of phones have used 6GB 64-bit LPDDR5 modules, including the iPhone 14 Pro, the Samsung Galaxy S21 FE and the Google Pixel 6a, so those modules are in production. Again, from a parts availability point of view that makes 8GB of LPDDR5 pretty tricky, as they'd likely have to get the 4GB modules custom made, which would result in a price premium, and they wouldn't be able to multi-source, which usually helps drive prices down over time. In comparison, 6GB modules seem to be readily available, which would make a 12GB configuration much more straight forward to manufacture.

It would make sense for Nintendo then to go with 12GB of LPDDR5(x) ram given like you said, readily available, which also follows Nintendo's own philosophy of withered tech that is relatively cheap, readily available, and mature. Nintendo possibly, if 12GB is in fact what'll be the case, might've not intended for that large amount, and probably would've been more conservative with 8GB, but the markets can help dictate where they go from a hardware standpoint, plus input from 3rd party developers.

Knowing Monolith Soft, and what they were able to accomplish with Xenoblade on Wii with a mere 88MB of Ram, XCX with 1GB of Ram available, and XC2 & 3 with 3.2GB available, it'll be amazing to see what they can do with potentially another 3 times more memory. 😲

Logan is the previous generation TK1, which has a Kepler GPU, Erista didn't exist on a road map until a year before release on March 25th 2014 at GTC. Before this, it went from Logan to Parker (now known as TX2) but at this GTC, shortly before they approached Nintendo, when Switch was a GBA like device with a Sony Ericson SoC and 1GB of RAM (this is data from the gigaleak).

Parker BTW was Maxwell on 16ff, which does indicate that Nvidia originally thought of Pascal as a more efficient Maxwell chip, though this was in 2013, the architecture borrowed more and more from Volta, until it became different enough from Maxwell to call it it's own architecture, at least this is why Volta never had a gaming chip, it made more sense to move right to Turing at this point.

Tegra 1 2010
Tegra 2 2011 (almost used in the 3DS)
Tegra 3 2012 (Ouya)
Tegra 4 2013
Logan is Tegra K1 (Kepler) 2014
Erista is Tegra X1 (Maxwell) 2015
Parker is Tegra X2 (Pascal) 2016
Xavier is Tegra Xavier (Volta) 2018
Mariko is Tegra X1+ (Maxwell) 2019
Orin is Tegra Orin (Ampere) 2022
Thor is Tegra Thor (Ada Lovelace) 2025

Mobile technology slowed down a lot in the last 6 years, but Switch is still using technology from 8 years ago at this point, so the 9x raw performance jump on the GPU and even CPU that we are expecting, is very exciting. It's the first major graphics jump since the Wii U, 11 years ago and will ultimately be a longer period of time without a major jump in Nintendo hardware than any other in their history, though certainly in line with Gameboy to Gameboy Advance (just under 12 years) and Gamecube to Wii U (11 years).

I stand corrected then. Thanks for the info, dude.
 
My concern is the Galaxy S23 RAM situation. Samsung went back down to 8GB on their flagship phones but the memory does run faster comparted to the 12GB on earlier models. I wonder if that could impact Nintendo's decision making especially if they are on a tight BOM budget.
I'm sure Nintendo will factor it in, but Samsung is the RAM vendor. They can afford to make a custom part for themselves, to keep cost of the phone down, because they can sell it to themselves at cost, and have a guaranteed customer.

If Nintendo goes with 8GB, the danger is they get stuck paying a premium for a memory module that is exclusively for them - Samsung is going to retire the S23 in two years, but whatever RAM amount Nintendo picks they'll have to find a vendor for nearly a decade.
 
0
Micron's catalog still lists the 4 GB 64-bit module as sampling, so no update on that end.
As far as I'm concerned, I'll only believe that there are 'regular' 4 GB 64-bit LPDDR5 modules if we can find a phone with such.

LPDDR and GDDR are different beasts, as far as options available.

LPDDR5 runs the gamut from 4/6 GB 64-bit to 16/18 GB 64-bit. LPDDR5X goes as low as... I see a 4 GB 64-bit 7500 MT/s module in sampling on Samsung's website. In mass production, 8 GB 64-bit 7500 MT/s. Hmm, the 8533 MT/s modules are still listed as sampling. I forgot; are there phones yet with full speed LPDDR5X?
Nvidia's Grace chip should be using 8533 MT/s LPDDR5X. Also, IIRC, the maximum config is 512 GB on a 512-bit bus? So LPDDR5X has a crazy high peak density relative to GDDR6.

On paper, the GDDR6 spec defines densities of 1 GB, 1.5 GB, 2 GB, 3 GB, and 4 GB (per 32-bit chip). But as we now know, in practice, manufacturers only make the 1 and 2 GB varieties. Why that's the case? I don't know. Is the client demand just lacking? GDDR as is strikes me as having so few customers, relatively speaking.

Edit:
<snip>

Parker BTW was Maxwell on 16ff, which does indicate that Nvidia originally thought of Pascal as a more efficient Maxwell chip, though this was in 2013, the architecture borrowed more and more from Volta, until it became different enough from Maxwell to call it it's own architecture, at least this is why Volta never had a gaming chip, it made more sense to move right to Turing at this point.
<snip>
Wait, that's why there never was gaming Volta? My guess was that it was planned for a node that ended up disappearing pretty quickly (TSMC's 10FF).

Edit 2:
Oh yea, I forgot to mention that the 4 GB 64-bit LPDDR5X module is on the relatively recent side. I'm pretty sure that wasn't there when I last checked late last year. Hell, the way my memory goes, the lowest density as of early 2022 was 8 GB 64-bit. The 6 GB 64-bit was later in 2022.
 
Last edited:
Logan is the previous generation TK1, which has a Kepler GPU, Erista didn't exist on a road map until a year before release on March 25th 2014 at GTC. Before this, it went from Logan to Parker (now known as TX2) but at this GTC, shortly before they approached Nintendo, when Switch was a GBA like device with a Sony Ericson SoC and 1GB of RAM (this is data from the gigaleak).

Parker BTW was Maxwell on 16ff, which does indicate that Nvidia originally thought of Pascal as a more efficient Maxwell chip, though this was in 2013, the architecture borrowed more and more from Volta, until it became different enough from Maxwell to call it it's own architecture, at least this is why Volta never had a gaming chip, it made more sense to move right to Turing at this point.

Tegra 1 2010
Tegra 2 2011 (almost used in the 3DS)
Tegra 3 2012 (Ouya)
Tegra 4 2013
Logan is Tegra K1 (Kepler) 2014
Erista is Tegra X1 (Maxwell) 2015
Parker is Tegra X2 (Pascal) 2016
Xavier is Tegra Xavier (Volta) 2018
Mariko is Tegra X1+ (Maxwell) 2019
Orin is Tegra Orin (Ampere) 2022
Thor is Tegra Thor (Ada Lovelace) 2025

Mobile technology slowed down a lot in the last 6 years, but Switch is still using technology from 8 years ago at this point, so the 9x raw performance jump on the GPU and even CPU that we are expecting, is very exciting. It's the first major graphics jump since the Wii U, 11 years ago and will ultimately be a longer period of time without a major jump in Nintendo hardware than any other in their history, though certainly in line with Gameboy to Gameboy Advance (just under 12 years) and Gamecube to Wii U (11 years).
Tegra was also used in the Zune HD.
 
The adhesive under the battery could stand to be a little looser, took me about 3 different tools to pry it off.
I'd much prefer if it were screwed down. Haven't disassembled a switch yet, but I had a laptop with a bad battery and it scraped up my knuckles pretty badly when I removed it. Then I had a second battery go bad so I replaced the laptop with a steam deck.
 

#2023
3054685bb402104fb3fcfc0dcbe59188.gif






#2024
200.gif
 
I think people forget just how wonky the Wii controls were. Gyro isn't the step down some people seem to have gaslit themselves into thinking it is.

As for modern solutions to the accurate pointer problem, there's two real options for inside-out tracking. There's using motion cameras, which Joy-Con (R) already has, to use the room around the user as a reference point rather than a set IR blaster, and there's mixing a gyrometer with a magnetometer and use the earth's magnetic field as your point of reference.

If I were a betting person, I think they'll go with option 2. It's cheaper, easier on the processing, and perfectly adequate. Plus they used it on Wii U. If the Wii U GamePad was ever "pointing" at something it wasn't using IR to do it.
Wii U GamePad wasn't excelling in any way that MotionPlus or Joy-Cons aren't, though. It still had frequent calls to sit it on a flat surface for calibration and things like that.
When you play a native 720p game on the Switch OLED, especially if they have any sort of quality AA, the image quality is great and is why I think 720p is fine for Redacted, as long as its OLED. The Steam Deck has a middle of the road LCD panel, but even that has shown that 720p can be just fine for a 7" screen
Games with good AA on Steam Deck can look pretty decent, but there's still no making up for loss of fine detail.
Perhaps we'll have cheap 2TB MicroSD cards by the launch of Switch 2.
God, I hope it's not that far out.
 
LM would probably barely look different as it's fixed camera and generally takes place in lighting conditions that work very well with pre-baked.
I still hope Luigi's Mansion 4 goes all Alan Wake and take place in an open mountain town

Micron's catalog still lists the 4 GB 64-bit module as sampling, so no update on that end.
As far as I'm concerned, I'll only believe that there are 'regular' 4 GB 64-bit LPDDR5 modules if we can find a phone with such.

LPDDR and GDDR are different beasts, as far as options available.

LPDDR5 runs the gamut from 4/6 GB 64-bit to 16/18 GB 64-bit. LPDDR5X goes as low as... I see a 4 GB 64-bit 7500 MT/s module in sampling on Samsung's website. In mass production, 8 GB 64-bit 7500 MT/s. Hmm, the 8533 MT/s modules are still listed as sampling. I forgot; are there phones yet with full speed LPDDR5X?
Nvidia's Grace chip should be using 8533 MT/s LPDDR5X. Also, IIRC, the maximum config is 512 GB on a 512-bit bus? So LPDDR5X has a crazy high peak density relative to GDDR6.

On paper, the GDDR6 spec defines densities of 1 GB, 1.5 GB, 2 GB, 3 GB, and 4 GB (per 32-bit chip). But as we now know, in practice, manufacturers only make the 1 and 2 GB varieties. Why that's the case? I don't know. Is the client demand just lacking? GDDR as is strikes me as having so few customers, relatively speaking.

Edit:

Wait, that's why there never was gaming Volta? My guess was that it was planned for a node that ended up disappearing pretty quickly (TSMC's 10FF).

Edit 2:
Oh yea, I forgot to mention that the 4 GB 64-bit LPDDR5X module is on the relatively recent side. I'm pretty sure that wasn't there when I last checked late last year. Hell, the way my memory goes, the lowest density as of early 2022 was 8 GB 64-bit. The 6 GB 64-bit was later in 2022.
I want to say I've seen 2GB chips in laptops, but those might have been 32-bit
 
It will be either 128GB or 256GB. MicroSD are expendable storage, so that's up to the consumer to supply it. Perhaps we'll have cheap 2TB MicroSD cards by the launch of Switch 2.
I truly hope it's not MicroSD. If the internal storage is UFS 3.x even, then MicroSD will be too slow to run [REDACTED] games from. UFS Card or MicroSDExpress might finally get its day.
 
God, I hope it's not that far out.
Hahaha. Kioxia demoed a 2TB MicroSD back in 2022. Given i'm team late 24 perhaps my prediction will come true

I truly hope it's not MicroSD. If the internal storage is UFS 3.x even, then MicroSD will be too slow to run [REDACTED] games from. UFS Card or MicroSDExpress might finally get its day.
We've been talking about the storage points since the reveal of blazing fast SSDs on PS5/XBS. Back then we had our hopes pinned into the CFExpress standard, but that showed to be disappointing. There's no current standard of ubiquitous external fast memory that can fit into a Switch-like body nor meet the energy-consumption and heat generation requirements for such a system like Switch. Unless we're talking about games not being able to run off MicroSD, there's no alternative. Nintendo will probably stick with MicroSD for external storage and increase GameCards speeds to match the MicroSD speeds. Internal Storage will probably be throttled to be simirlarly as fast as MicroSD and GameCards. That's what I think Nintendo will do and is the most sensible to keep parity between External Storage, GameCards and Internal Storage. Modern UHS-I MicroSD should be able to hit 100MB/s, so that should be fine.

Edit: UHS-II SD is able to hit up to 312MB/s in theory. So they would be decently faster than UHS-I. I don't know if they're sold in MicroSD format, but it wouldn't be a problem for Nintendo to just adopt SD format and use UHS-II SD Cards.
 
Last edited:
0
I truly hope it's not MicroSD. If the internal storage is UFS 3.x even, then MicroSD will be too slow to run [REDACTED] games from. UFS Card or MicroSDExpress might finally get its day.
UFS card and SD Express are stillborn formats. if SD card are slower, it's just gonna have to be something players deal with
 
UFS card and SD Express are stillborn formats. if SD card are slower, it's just gonna have to be something players deal with
It's been said before that at 20,000,000 units a year, Nintendo should be able to support a market for either of them and possibly popularize them to the point where other manufacturers would start using them.
 
Would Nintendo want to spearhead such format though? It's much easier to just take advantage of current mass-market standards. I'm guessing Switch 2 will abandon MicroSD slot in favor of the return of the SD slot, but upgraded to make usage of UHS-II (Up to 312MB/s read). It's a reasonable compromise as most MicroSD do come with and SD adapter included.
Can we expect Nintendo to release a digital only (no card reader) Switch 2 with double the internal storage?
No. Nintendo Switch market is still a highly physical market and makes no sense for Nintendo to split manufacturing lines. Digital Future is close for PS/XB, but it will take quite an while (If ever) for Nintendo devices.
 
It's been said before that at 20,000,000 units a year, Nintendo should be able to support a market for either of them and possibly popularize them to the point where other manufacturers would start using them.
except other manufactures already settled on a standard and aren't gonna change just because. high end cameras moved to a pcie-based solution already, so they're out. lower end cameras don't benefit too much from the throughput to spend money on a higher end format. laptops and the like get by with USB and pcie-based nvme drives.

nintendo would have to front these formats by themselves. so we'd be looking at only one vendor (likely sandisk)

How much would a card reader cost? Can we expect Nintendo to release a digital only (no card reader) Switch 2 SKU with double the internal storage?
card readers are cheap. there's no reason to ditch the card reader
 
The best solution is probably just to make all games that don't fit on a 16 GB cart download exclusive, with the cart just existing as proof of purchase if people are buying those games physically for some reason.

(Nintendo should also have mandatory installs to very fast UFS 4.0 storage)
 
How much would a card reader cost? Can we expect Nintendo to release a digital only (no card reader) Switch 2 SKU with double the internal storage?
You mean SD card reader or GameCard?
 
Quoted by: iag
1
except other manufactures already settled on a standard and aren't gonna change just because. high end cameras moved to a pcie-based solution already, so they're out. lower end cameras don't benefit too much from the throughput to spend money on a higher end format. laptops and the like get by with USB and pcie-based nvme drives.

nintendo would have to front these formats by themselves. so we'd be looking at only one vendor (likely sandisk)
You know that SD Express is PCIe, right? Equivalent to a CFExpress type B. I believe that Micro SD Express is only 1 lane, so it would be equivalent to a CFExpress type A.

EDIT: Also PCIe - m.2, u.2, u.3, and others that I'm not recalling right now. m.2 is used in other mobile video game hardware, but it looks scary, so I don't expect Nintendo to support it. Maybe I'm wrong there since Sony supports it on the PS5.
 
Micron's catalog still lists the 4 GB 64-bit module as sampling, so no update on that end.
As far as I'm concerned, I'll only believe that there are 'regular' 4 GB 64-bit LPDDR5 modules if we can find a phone with such.

LPDDR and GDDR are different beasts, as far as options available.

LPDDR5 runs the gamut from 4/6 GB 64-bit to 16/18 GB 64-bit. LPDDR5X goes as low as... I see a 4 GB 64-bit 7500 MT/s module in sampling on Samsung's website. In mass production, 8 GB 64-bit 7500 MT/s. Hmm, the 8533 MT/s modules are still listed as sampling. I forgot; are there phones yet with full speed LPDDR5X?
Nvidia's Grace chip should be using 8533 MT/s LPDDR5X. Also, IIRC, the maximum config is 512 GB on a 512-bit bus? So LPDDR5X has a crazy high peak density relative to GDDR6.

On paper, the GDDR6 spec defines densities of 1 GB, 1.5 GB, 2 GB, 3 GB, and 4 GB (per 32-bit chip). But as we now know, in practice, manufacturers only make the 1 and 2 GB varieties. Why that's the case? I don't know. Is the client demand just lacking? GDDR as is strikes me as having so few customers, relatively speaking.

Yeah, I'm typically more convinced by what is shipping in actual hardware like phone and laptops than what's listed on product lists. I suspect updating those product lists isn't the highest priority for manufacturers, as small-scale clients will ask their suppliers about parts availability, and large-scale clients will talk to the manufacturers themselves, leaving online product lists as a relatively unimportant means of communication.

Wait, that's why there never was gaming Volta? My guess was that it was planned for a node that ended up disappearing pretty quickly (TSMC's 10FF).

I think your guess is probably accurate. Back in 2017 Nvidia submitted a patent application for a clock gating circuit which included details on several consumer Volta GPUs on TSMC's 10FF process. I posted about it a while back:

One interesting (although completely unrelated) thing from that patent is figure 10, which lists the lineup of Pascal GPU chips, along with manufacturing process and the configuration of GPCs, TPCs and framebuffer partitions (ie memory channels). This all seems to be accurate, although not too revealing given the Pascal lineup had been on sale for a while when this patent was applied for in early 2017. However, it also lists an entire lineup of what appear to be consumer Volta GPUs:

ChipProcessGPCTPC per GPCFBP
GV202tsmc10ff666
GV204tsmc10ff464
GV206tsmc10ff263
GV207tsmc10ff242
GV208tsmc10ff141

Obviously these never released, but it seems like they had considered releasing a consumer Volta GPU line on TSMC's 10FF process. Instead we got Turing (which is an evolution of the Volta architecture) on 12nm. One thing that's interesting is that the config for GV202, GV204, GV206 and GV207 line up exactly with what we got for TU102, TU104, TU116 and TU117 respectively. So perhaps the initial plans were to release a line of consumer Volta GPUs on 10nm, but then they decided to use 12nm instead, and rebranded to Turing. Completely unrelated to any future Nintendo hardware, but interesting nonetheless.

Of course they could have been dummy GPUs for the purpose of the patent application, but the fact that they align exactly with the Turing lineup (except without a single-GPC chip) pretty strongly suggests that these were actually planned, and the switch to 12nm also came with a name change to Turing.

Oh yea, I forgot to mention that the 4 GB 64-bit LPDDR5X module is on the relatively recent side. I'm pretty sure that wasn't there when I last checked late last year. Hell, the way my memory goes, the lowest density as of early 2022 was 8 GB 64-bit. The 6 GB 64-bit was later in 2022.

This is a really puzzling one. Samsung never seemed to make a 4GB 64-bit LPDDR5 module, and their only 6GB 64-bit LPDDR5 module is listed as EOL, with no replacement in sight. Why would they see a market for 4GB LPDDR5X modules but not even 6GB LPDDR5 modules?
 
You know that SD Express is PCIe, right? Equivalent to a CFExpress type B. I believe that Micro SD Express is only 1 lane, so it would be equivalent to a CFExpress type A.

EDIT: Also PCIe - m.2, u.2, u.3, and others that I'm not recalling right now. m.2 is used in other mobile video game hardware, but it looks scary, so I don't expect Nintendo to support it. Maybe I'm wrong there since Sony supports it on the PS5.
that's literally what I said, I don't get the point of your first comment

I don't see what those have to do with Drake. unless you want to throw in a 2230 into the ring as an expandable storage option. Surface tablets use that already and can be easily inserted by a layperson. Nintendo would have to neuter the speeds so much to keep them from heating up which the Series and PS5 don't have to worry about thanks to their sheer size
 
This is a really puzzling one. Samsung never seemed to make a 4GB 64-bit LPDDR5 module, and their only 6GB 64-bit LPDDR5 module is listed as EOL, with no replacement in sight. Why would they see a market for 4GB LPDDR5X modules but not even 6GB LPDDR5 modules?
probably for laptops and whatnot
 
0
Name calling other users to try and prove a point is not constructive. Please be more constructive with your reasoning, especially in this thread. -Josh5890, xghost777, Irene
that's literally what I said, I don't get the point of your first comment

I don't see what those have to do with Drake. unless you want to throw in a 2230 into the ring as an expandable storage option. Surface tablets use that already and can be easily inserted by a layperson. Nintendo would have to neuter the speeds so much to keep them from heating up which the Series and PS5 don't have to worry about thanks to their sheer size
So you seem to be saying that there can only be one PCIe solution, and then completely contradict that.

Then again, I don't see the Steam Deck having that problem. It's mostly with selection. Approved list? Do the MS route and limit what's detected to a list kept in software, but maybe not as harshly.

I like your enthusiasm man, but you hit the fanboy/move the goal posts/pick the facts to fit your narrative pretty hard.
 
So you seem to be saying that there can only be one PCIe solution, and then completely contradict that.

Then again, I don't see the Steam Deck having that problem. It's mostly with selection. Approved list? Do the MS route and limit what's detected to a list kept in software, but maybe not as harshly.

I like your enthusiasm man, but you hit the fanboy/move the goal posts/pick the facts to fit your narrative pretty hard.
no that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that camera makers don't have a reason to add another PCIe solution when it doesn't propose any benefits to the PCIe solution they have now. PCIe-based external storage is proving to be niche to begin with, hence why we're even at this problem

MS doesn't limit who can access the PCIe slot. they have their own storage, but it's just a regular 2230 with a fancy cover

I've already reported your post for baseless accusations of fanboyism, so unless you want actually have a discussion, don't bother responding
 
Game card.
Nah, I can't imagine a GameCard free device.

Sony and Microsoft only do it because BluRay drives are heavy and expensive, so it saves a lot of cash, both in manufacturing and shipping, to get rid of it. If Nintendo puts the GameCard controller on the SOC (which would be smart, if they can pull it off), then the game card reader is nothing more than the rubber slot cover and less than a penny's worth of copper. There aren't any savings for a digital only version.
 
0
Would Nintendo want to spearhead such format though? It's much easier to just take advantage of current mass-market standards. I'm guessing Switch 2 will abandon MicroSD slot in favor of the return of the SD slot, but upgraded to make usage of UHS-II (Up to 312MB/s read). It's a reasonable compromise as most MicroSD do come with and SD adapter included.

Because at some point they'll have to. Other devices which need high-speed removable storage have become increasingly niche, so there's never going to be another mass-market format unless Nintendo spearheads it. If they don't do it with Switch 2, they'll just have to do it with Switch 3. Even on Switch 2, there's lots of data to suggest that UFS 2 is the baseline option for storage in a new Switch, and unless they intentionally hobble performance by restricting operation to a single lane, that would mean at least 850MB/s sequential read speeds. UHS-II cards, then, would be substantially slower than internal storage in the worst case scenario, so restricting themselves to mass-market standards would significantly restrict performance today, if you even consider UHS-II mass-market.

Another reason to think they might is that they (sort of) did it before with a fancy new format called the SD card. Back in 2000, when the Gamecube was revealed, Nintendo announced that they would release a memory card adapter that would allow people to use SD cards with the system. The Gamecube was one of the first devices announced to support SD cards in any way, and as far as I can tell cameras using the cards didn't appear until late 2001, with major brands taking a long time to adopt the format (eg Canon not supporting it until 2005). Ultimately the SD card adapter was delayed to 2003, and ended up only being released in Japan, and only supporting two games.

Of course the Nintendo of today is very different to the one of 23 years ago, but I think it's an interesting reminder that Nintendo's support for the SD card format itself started long before it became a mass-market standard.

except other manufactures already settled on a standard and aren't gonna change just because. high end cameras moved to a pcie-based solution already, so they're out. lower end cameras don't benefit too much from the throughput to spend money on a higher end format. laptops and the like get by with USB and pcie-based nvme drives.

nintendo would have to front these formats by themselves. so we'd be looking at only one vendor (likely sandisk)

Whether other manufacturers change standard doesn't really matter to Nintendo. For the past few years the Switch has outsold the entire camera industry by 2 to 3 times, and the proportion of those camera sales which support CFexpress is likely less than 10%. It's entirely possible that Nintendo could overtake the entire current CFexpress install base on launch day.

Speaking of which, CFexpress, despite being a very niche format, has a pretty healthy number of manufacturers. A quick look on B&H shows 15 different brands for CFexpress Type B, so I'd be very surprised if a format backed by Nintendo, and used in a device that's outselling the entire camera industry two-fold on an off-year, would only end up with one vendor.

Besides, Nintendo can just use CFexpress. Type A is small, relatively low power (reported max 1.7W from manufacturers, compared to 1.62W max for UFS cards, although I'd expect UFS cards to be lower in real-world use), and the specification could be relatively trivially updated to support PCIe 4.0 for sequential speeds of up to 1.7GB/s if they needed it. It's also very cheap for Nintendo to add a reader for, given they already have the PCIe lanes. Current CFexpress cards are absurdly expensive, but this is more to do with the extremely small current market of professionals than the standard itself (which is basically an M2 drive in a plastic case). Delkin introduced a new CFexpress card recently with a 75% off launch sale, which shows the kind of margins they're working with.
 
Whether other manufacturers change standard doesn't really matter to Nintendo. For the past few years the Switch has outsold the entire camera industry by 2 to 3 times, and the proportion of those camera sales which support CFexpress is likely less than 10%. It's entirely possible that Nintendo could overtake the entire current CFexpress install base on launch day.

Speaking of which, CFexpress, despite being a very niche format, has a pretty healthy number of manufacturers. A quick look on B&H shows 15 different brands for CFexpress Type B, so I'd be very surprised if a format backed by Nintendo, and used in a device that's outselling the entire camera industry two-fold on an off-year, would only end up with one vendor.

Besides, Nintendo can just use CFexpress. Type A is small, relatively low power (reported max 1.7W from manufacturers, compared to 1.62W max for UFS cards, although I'd expect UFS cards to be lower in real-world use), and the specification could be relatively trivially updated to support PCIe 4.0 for sequential speeds of up to 1.7GB/s if they needed it. It's also very cheap for Nintendo to add a reader for, given they already have the PCIe lanes. Current CFexpress cards are absurdly expensive, but this is more to do with the extremely small current market of professionals than the standard itself (which is basically an M2 drive in a plastic case). Delkin introduced a new CFexpress card recently with a 75% off launch sale, which shows the kind of margins they're working with.
Nintendo has no good choices here, at the moment. If they go with CFExpress, they'll need to find a manufacturing partner at least initially, in order to get costs to drive down, and I think the community backlash would be that folks had already invested in giant SD cards, and now they've gotta go with proprietary expansion cards. Ignore the fact that it isn't actually proprietary, the only cost effective cards on the market at launch would be Nintendo branded, and that's how the larger gaming community is likely to react.

Otherwise they're stuck with the cost of solid state and the speed of spinning rust, which isn't good either.

If I had to bet*, Nintendo will go with SD cards again this gen, possibly allowing games to "force" digital installations to base storage for speed purposes if required. Then just let the market sort it out over the next decade. Looking at the direction of phones, laptops, and this new (if niche) handheld gaming PC, there is potentially a market for user expandable storage that could come back, and Nintendo can make do with gas still left in the tank of microSD.

*And I don't.
 
Nintendo has no good choices here, at the moment. If they go with CFExpress, they'll need to find a manufacturing partner at least initially, in order to get costs to drive down, and I think the community backlash would be that folks had already invested in giant SD cards, and now they've gotta go with proprietary expansion cards. Ignore the fact that it isn't actually proprietary, the only cost effective cards on the market at launch would be Nintendo branded, and that's how the larger gaming community is likely to react.

Otherwise they're stuck with the cost of solid state and the speed of spinning rust, which isn't good either.

If I had to bet*, Nintendo will go with SD cards again this gen, possibly allowing games to "force" digital installations to base storage for speed purposes if required. Then just let the market sort it out over the next decade. Looking at the direction of phones, laptops, and this new (if niche) handheld gaming PC, there is potentially a market for user expandable storage that could come back, and Nintendo can make do with gas still left in the tank of microSD.

*And I don't.
1 TB cards can be found under $100 worthless canadian dollars on sale, and will come down in price. 512 are sub 50, i don't think backlash will be that great but i do agree it will be a PR nightmare to sell people on $100+ 512 GB premium storage with the media narrative they are fleecing consumers when microSDs are much cheaper.

I agree Nintendo would much rather adopt an existing standard and i feel they will just try to enforce Switch 2 supporting the higher end microSDs with over 100MB/s transfer speeds. It will still be a huge lift over Switch. Which is a combination of CPU and memory limited currently.
 
Last edited:


"Mom can we get Famicom anniversary hardware"

"We've got Famicom anniversary hardware at home!"

Be careful anyone buying 8bitdo “Pro” controllers as the d-pad is a huge letdown.

It feels just like the SNES one but is poor when pressing down as it registers diagonals.

It’s a shame as otherwise the 8bitdo Ultimate is a great controller.
 
Because at some point they'll have to. Other devices which need high-speed removable storage have become increasingly niche, so there's never going to be another mass-market format unless Nintendo spearheads it. If they don't do it with Switch 2, they'll just have to do it with Switch 3. Even on Switch 2, there's lots of data to suggest that UFS 2 is the baseline option for storage in a new Switch, and unless they intentionally hobble performance by restricting operation to a single lane, that would mean at least 850MB/s sequential read speeds. UHS-II cards, then, would be substantially slower than internal storage in the worst case scenario, so restricting themselves to mass-market standards would significantly restrict performance today, if you even consider UHS-II mass-market.

Another reason to think they might is that they (sort of) did it before with a fancy new format called the SD card. Back in 2000, when the Gamecube was revealed, Nintendo announced that they would release a memory card adapter that would allow people to use SD cards with the system. The Gamecube was one of the first devices announced to support SD cards in any way, and as far as I can tell cameras using the cards didn't appear until late 2001, with major brands taking a long time to adopt the format (eg Canon not supporting it until 2005). Ultimately the SD card adapter was delayed to 2003, and ended up only being released in Japan, and only supporting two games.

Of course the Nintendo of today is very different to the one of 23 years ago, but I think it's an interesting reminder that Nintendo's support for the SD card format itself started long before it became a mass-market standard.



Whether other manufacturers change standard doesn't really matter to Nintendo. For the past few years the Switch has outsold the entire camera industry by 2 to 3 times, and the proportion of those camera sales which support CFexpress is likely less than 10%. It's entirely possible that Nintendo could overtake the entire current CFexpress install base on launch day.

Speaking of which, CFexpress, despite being a very niche format, has a pretty healthy number of manufacturers. A quick look on B&H shows 15 different brands for CFexpress Type B, so I'd be very surprised if a format backed by Nintendo, and used in a device that's outselling the entire camera industry two-fold on an off-year, would only end up with one vendor.

Besides, Nintendo can just use CFexpress. Type A is small, relatively low power (reported max 1.7W from manufacturers, compared to 1.62W max for UFS cards, although I'd expect UFS cards to be lower in real-world use), and the specification could be relatively trivially updated to support PCIe 4.0 for sequential speeds of up to 1.7GB/s if they needed it. It's also very cheap for Nintendo to add a reader for, given they already have the PCIe lanes. Current CFexpress cards are absurdly expensive, but this is more to do with the extremely small current market of professionals than the standard itself (which is basically an M2 drive in a plastic case). Delkin introduced a new CFexpress card recently with a 75% off launch sale, which shows the kind of margins they're working with.

Another advantage of CFexpress is the size relative to normal SD cards.

CFXA-SD-CFXB-size-comparison.jpg


It does not compare to the size of a microSD, but instead about the size of a Switch Game Card:

3201598-gamecard.jpg


Despite its niche use, CFExpress makes a lot of sense compared to SD, or microSD if only for the speed advantages. What you lose initially in a high price could be mitigated by the success of the system. The only hurdle I can see off the bat is migrating your data from a Switch 1 to a Switch 2, it doing so between two regular switches is possible, so that might be mostly a non-issue.

CFExpress definitely feels somewhat future proof, yet because it’s be type a, you are like you said, limited to 1GB/sec. But i believe it was said that Drake has hardware decompression, so that meager one gig might appear faster than we think. At that point, the only real wild card is the Game Cards themselves.

Edit: That all said, CFExpress is stupid expensiv.

UHS-2 based SD cards (whether micro or not) could be a nice middle road, but the tricky part IMO is not only convincing customers to get one, BUT also make it easy for customers to know the difference Between UHS I, and UHS II (Spoiler, there isn’t a physical difference.
 
Last edited:
Nintendo has no good choices here, at the moment. If they go with CFExpress, they'll need to find a manufacturing partner at least initially, in order to get costs to drive down, and I think the community backlash would be that folks had already invested in giant SD cards, and now they've gotta go with proprietary expansion cards. Ignore the fact that it isn't actually proprietary, the only cost effective cards on the market at launch would be Nintendo branded, and that's how the larger gaming community is likely to react.

Otherwise they're stuck with the cost of solid state and the speed of spinning rust, which isn't good either.

If I had to bet*, Nintendo will go with SD cards again this gen, possibly allowing games to "force" digital installations to base storage for speed purposes if required. Then just let the market sort it out over the next decade. Looking at the direction of phones, laptops, and this new (if niche) handheld gaming PC, there is potentially a market for user expandable storage that could come back, and Nintendo can make do with gas still left in the tank of microSD.

*And I don't.
I still think forcing is unnecessary. at least Ratchet and Clank will be out at the end of the month and we can really test the extent of SD cards.

but I think it'll be in Nintendo's interest to move to 2230 in the future. I still think they can get a low power speed rating out of it
 
1 TB cards can be found under $100 worthless canadian dollars on sale, and will come down in price. 512 are sub 50, i don't think backlash will be that great but i do agree it will be a PR nightmare to sell people on $100+ 512 GB premium storage with the media narrative they are fleecing consumers when microSDs are much cheaper.
Sub 50? I've not been able to find a 1TB type A card, period. And they seem to average $2/GB American.
 
Where did you find a Type A CFExpress card of 512GB for sub 50 bucks?

Do you have a link?
I was talking about microSD prices and how even 1 TB cards have come down in price and likely won't face consumer backlash from investments made into these cards. Most people would just repurpose it for use on another device. The backlash for not going with microSD but with a prorietary faster format would be on the cost per MB of storage.
 
0
Nintendo has no good choices here, at the moment. If they go with CFExpress, they'll need to find a manufacturing partner at least initially, in order to get costs to drive down, and I think the community backlash would be that folks had already invested in giant SD cards, and now they've gotta go with proprietary expansion cards. Ignore the fact that it isn't actually proprietary, the only cost effective cards on the market at launch would be Nintendo branded, and that's how the larger gaming community is likely to react.

Otherwise they're stuck with the cost of solid state and the speed of spinning rust, which isn't good either.

If I had to bet*, Nintendo will go with SD cards again this gen, possibly allowing games to "force" digital installations to base storage for speed purposes if required. Then just let the market sort it out over the next decade. Looking at the direction of phones, laptops, and this new (if niche) handheld gaming PC, there is potentially a market for user expandable storage that could come back, and Nintendo can make do with gas still left in the tank of microSD.

*And I don't.
Flagship phones are still largely forgoing expandable storage entirely, and, at least in my experience, external storage bought for laptops specifically is basically always USB, with things like memory card readers mostly being in support of other devices. Handheld PCs are the only real segment where memory cards stand a chance, but that's not a huge market (certainly smaller than the Nintendo market), and they're just as likely to lean on more internal options like M.2.

It's really not clear that letting everyone else "sort it out" for a while will really change anything. It's just as likely, if not more, that the current situation will just continue to fester without someone like Nintendo throwing their weight behind one of the options to start to create some demand again.

Realistically, the best option is probably to somewhat mimic what the other consoles are doing. Require a new, high speed format for actually running exclusive native games, while allowing the previous storage format to continue to be used for Switch 1 compatible games and cold storage. Aside from CFexpress, they wouldn't even need an extra slot to make this work. That allows for SD to serve as a stopgap while the faster format establishes itself.
 
Here you have gameplay:


Looks good not gonna lie. I might buy the next installment though or the "Switch Shift™ 😂" . It's been a long time since I played a football game. The only football game I owned is the one made by Human in the 90s, yeah that game sucks due to how the camera is set up.
 
0
So right now the bottleneck is Macronix unable to keep up production of higher capacity ROM cards?

But yeah, I'm surprised how cheap even 1TB microSD cards have gotten. I'm just kind of shocked that if solid state storage has gotten this inexpensive, then why not solid state ROMs? It's kinda weird that both don't scale economically at the same rate.
 
Please read this staff post before posting.

Furthermore, according to this follow-up post, all off-topic chat will be moderated.
Last edited:


Back
Top Bottom