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StarTopic Future Nintendo Hardware & Technology Speculation & Discussion |ST| (Read the staff posts before commenting!)
- Thread starter Dakhil
- Start date
FernandoRocker
Piranha Plant
The ideal name would be to copy Sony's naming convention and just use a number.
Sure, Switch Ultra, Switch Pro, Super Switch... They all sound nice and have history behind the names, but most people are not aware of that.
The problem I see is that Switch 2 sounds kinda boring and unoriginal, but there is an easy fix. Something simple that changes the tone of the name completely: just add a period and a zero.
Switch 2.0
They can continue later on in the future with Switch 3.0 or if they do a mid-gen refresh, they could just call it Switch 2.5 or something like that.
Sure, Switch Ultra, Switch Pro, Super Switch... They all sound nice and have history behind the names, but most people are not aware of that.
The problem I see is that Switch 2 sounds kinda boring and unoriginal, but there is an easy fix. Something simple that changes the tone of the name completely: just add a period and a zero.
Switch 2.0
They can continue later on in the future with Switch 3.0 or if they do a mid-gen refresh, they could just call it Switch 2.5 or something like that.
SiG
Chain Chomp
Nope. It's better if they don't copy anything from Sony. I'd rather not have a "Switch 2" moreso than I'd rather have a "Nintendo IX".
"Super Nintendo Switch" actually sounds very on-brand.
The people who think "super" sounds childish ascribe to those dumb notions of "prestige" like what the Playstation brand does. It also contrasts from the cold and boring naming scheme Sony chooses.
FernandoRocker
Piranha Plant
I really think that Microsoft for example, has a lot of problems with their console because of their naming conventions.
It's easy for us, but it is extremely hard for regular people to differentiate between the Xbox One, Xbox One X, and Xbox Series X because the naming convention is confusing as hell.
Nintendo needs to keep it simple.
SiG
Chain Chomp
I could see how "Super Nintendo Switch" would create confusion with it's prior console. "Nintendo Switch Next" would be suitable as an upgrade name, but as a true successor I could see Nintendo ditching the Switch branding altogether in favor for one that best describe's the new console's "gimmick".
Dark Cloud
Warpstar Knight
They could do Nintendo Switch X like Microsoft…everyone who buys tech understands the annotation of an extra letter like “X” or “S”
Simba1
Bob-omb
What exactly means clean generation break?
Do you think that PS5 is clean generation break compared to PS4? Next gen doesnt mean clean generation break (look at PS5).
This thing will be sell alongside other Switch versions and over 90% of all games will be cross gen for at least 2 years among all Switch units.
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Simba1
Bob-omb
That's my point, Nintendo usually named their platform based on platform/system concept, and with new Switch hardware main concept (hybrid) will stay, so it will be Switch in any case, so Switch 2 would make most sense, especially because we talking about more than hole generation leap in any case (GPU, CPU, RAM, DLSS...and who knows what else) that coming on market at around 6 years after OG Switch launch.
Look over there
Bob-omb
While we're in a bit of a waiting period, Thraktor, I forgot, but were the comparisons you made with Geekbench scores between A78 and desktop Zen 2 or the 4700S?
I vaguely remember the A78 falling a bit behind in IPC, but I'm sitting here thinking it can punch up a bit in gaming specifically thanks to differences in inter-core latency due to topology, a la Skylake vs Zen 2.
To expand on the above for the readers:
Zen 2 organizes its cores into groups of 4 called Core Complexes (CCX). Within a given CCX, all 4 cores are directly linked to each other, leading to fantastic latency when a core has to communicate to another within the same CCX. However, if you need to communicate with another CCX, jumping out to IO and then into the other one adds a relatively noticeable amount of time.
For example, this chart gives us inter-core latencies for an 8 core Renoir (Zen 2, monolithic APU, which ought to be the same category as the PS5/Xbox Series CPU):
The 7 nanoseconds is for two threads on the same core. 17-18 ns is for different cores, same CCX. 60's ns is for different CCXs.
Btw, desktop Zen 2 has higher inter-CCX latency by... ~20 ns maybe for the same CCD (Core Complex Die; physical piece that contains 2 CCX) due to presumably the chiplet setup increasing distances to the IO relative to monolithic. And further higher for different CCD due to increased distance and maybe another stop along the way. But, desktop Zen 2 has 16 MB of L3 cache per CCX compared to the monolithic Zen 2 APUs having 4 MB per CCX. And the Geekbench results for the 4700S report 4 MB x 2 for L3, so it's like the other Zen 2 APUs.
IIRC, while Zen 2 pulled ahead in productivity, AMD couldn't take the gaming crown yet. I personally think that Skylake was able to maintain the edge there due to better average latency (thanks to the glorious bi-directional ring bus).
Comet Lake 10900k (10 Skylake cores, so the loop is being stretched to its limits):
Think of a ring bus like... a train or subway line going in a loop, with each core being a stop/station. Bi-directional would be having one track/line going one direction, one track/line going the other direction.
Now, to relate it back ARM...
So, as far as I'm aware, ARM never disclosed the topology of the previous version of the DynamIQ Shared Unit. But when they introduced the ARMv9 stuff last year, they did describe the new version of the DSU as a dual bi-directional ring structure; two rings of 4 cores each, with two locations where the rings connect to each other. And apparently they claimed to try to keep latencies as low as the previous version.
...and to satisfy my own curiosity, this article claims that the previous DSU was a hybrid crossbar of some sort. And it also describes the previous DSU as having 'very low latencies, to begin with'.
Crossbar's basically a grid, with lines/connections running vertically and horizontally. A crossbar with a max of 8 cores would probably be 2 rows/4 columns, or 4 rows/2 columns, I suppose?
I vaguely remember the A78 falling a bit behind in IPC, but I'm sitting here thinking it can punch up a bit in gaming specifically thanks to differences in inter-core latency due to topology, a la Skylake vs Zen 2.
To expand on the above for the readers:
Zen 2 organizes its cores into groups of 4 called Core Complexes (CCX). Within a given CCX, all 4 cores are directly linked to each other, leading to fantastic latency when a core has to communicate to another within the same CCX. However, if you need to communicate with another CCX, jumping out to IO and then into the other one adds a relatively noticeable amount of time.
For example, this chart gives us inter-core latencies for an 8 core Renoir (Zen 2, monolithic APU, which ought to be the same category as the PS5/Xbox Series CPU):
The 7 nanoseconds is for two threads on the same core. 17-18 ns is for different cores, same CCX. 60's ns is for different CCXs.
Btw, desktop Zen 2 has higher inter-CCX latency by... ~20 ns maybe for the same CCD (Core Complex Die; physical piece that contains 2 CCX) due to presumably the chiplet setup increasing distances to the IO relative to monolithic. And further higher for different CCD due to increased distance and maybe another stop along the way. But, desktop Zen 2 has 16 MB of L3 cache per CCX compared to the monolithic Zen 2 APUs having 4 MB per CCX. And the Geekbench results for the 4700S report 4 MB x 2 for L3, so it's like the other Zen 2 APUs.
IIRC, while Zen 2 pulled ahead in productivity, AMD couldn't take the gaming crown yet. I personally think that Skylake was able to maintain the edge there due to better average latency (thanks to the glorious bi-directional ring bus).
Comet Lake 10900k (10 Skylake cores, so the loop is being stretched to its limits):
Think of a ring bus like... a train or subway line going in a loop, with each core being a stop/station. Bi-directional would be having one track/line going one direction, one track/line going the other direction.
Now, to relate it back ARM...
So, as far as I'm aware, ARM never disclosed the topology of the previous version of the DynamIQ Shared Unit. But when they introduced the ARMv9 stuff last year, they did describe the new version of the DSU as a dual bi-directional ring structure; two rings of 4 cores each, with two locations where the rings connect to each other. And apparently they claimed to try to keep latencies as low as the previous version.
...and to satisfy my own curiosity, this article claims that the previous DSU was a hybrid crossbar of some sort. And it also describes the previous DSU as having 'very low latencies, to begin with'.
Crossbar's basically a grid, with lines/connections running vertically and horizontally. A crossbar with a max of 8 cores would probably be 2 rows/4 columns, or 4 rows/2 columns, I suppose?
LiC
Member
NV_SCAL_LITTER_NUM_ROP_PER_GPC is defined as 2 for desktop Ampere, Orin, and Drake. Obviously that's not 16, but it probably indicates that it's the same among all the Ampere chips.
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The problem with Switch 2.0 is that it's very unlikely that they market this is a new gen at $400+. This is almost certainly going to be treated like a revision or iteration like n3DS or GBC.
Calling it a successor and pricing it that high would be disastrous IMO.
Trevelyan
Octorok
That’s where I’m at as well. I don’t see Nintendo marketing this as a new generation, not will they treat it like one. Not when they’re putting out evergreen titles like Switch Sports in a month, and the DLC to MK8 for the next 18 months.
japtor
Rattata
Switch X, now with Game Pass!
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I could see Nintendo treating it like a successor internally. And in a few years publicly.
My Tulpa
Bob-omb
Ps5 is a clean generational break compared to Ps4, yes. They even launched it explicitly saying it’s a generational break “we believe in it!”
Don’t forget, they stopped manufacturing their 2016 pro model before the ps5 even launched. The plan was to stop producing ALL ps4 models by the end of last year.
Sony’s “commitment” to cross gen games for 2 years or so is more out of worry concerning software tie ratio for the ps5 right now than anything
Nintendo does not plan on ending all Switch model production within a year or two after this new model releases. Nintendo does not want this ~$500 pro model to be the only price point option going forward. Nintendo does not plan on focusing all its game development to be Pro model only by 2024. Nintendo does not plan to stop having new games running on the OLED model by 2024.
Nintendo does not want to release a new model this year that will be considered a generational break from the Switch.
Switch 2 would imply to console consumers that they are planning on phasing out the OLED model they just released last year. I don’t think doing that makes sense at all, imo.
They will want to market this model as simply a way to play the Switch library games better…for those who want that kind of thing. And they will try to name it accordingly how it does this.
They are absolutely not releasing this and expecting everyone, or even the majority, to have moved over to this expensive model after 2 years.
D
Deleted member 2551
Guest
Can I play Xenoblade X on my Switch X? X on X, aka XxX.
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Maybe just the “
NEW“ moniker as that didn’t make clear what was new from the name aloneI believe that the test he did was with A78 from mediatek, here’s a few others to consider with the A78 at 3GHz reached a geekbench score of 818-980 in ST:
https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/search?page=1&q=arm+mt6893z&utf8=✓
There’s a questionable source that has it at 722 for ST at 2.4GHz:
MediaTek MT6877V/ZA Dimensity 900 Geekbench 5 Android - GadgetVersus
MediaTek MT6877V/ZA Dimensity 900 processor performance in the Geekbench 5 benchmark platform with Android, in single-core and multi-core.
gadgetversus.com
(Highlight search dimensity 900 on the page)
Another questionable one as it’s only one time listed: https://nanoreview.net/en/soc-compare/qualcomm-snapdragon-865-vs-mediatek-dimensity-1100
It’s the A78 at 2.6GHz performance is 856 in ST.
All of these CPUs have an A78 CPU core
while the 4700s at 4GHz was around 980-1020 range:
And if uncertain as it says base 3.6GHz but max frequency is 4GHz, here’s a 4600 which also caps at 4GHz but has a much lower base frequency and it also is in a similar range to the 4700S:
Same 970 range for ST.
The IPC of the A78 over the A57 was 2.9x to 3.1x I think, as per ARM’s own info. While the A57 was slightly ahead in IPC over the Jaguar CPUs thus being a bit more performant:
Also look at the Nintendo Switch on GeekBench:
You can parse through it and get a general idea of the real range of the CPU clocked to 2GHz.
And the IPC that Zen 2 has over the Jaguars is 2x, as per this developer:
“8x Zen2 cores is roughly 4x faster than 8x Jaguar. Roughly 2x IPC and roughly 2x clocks (conservative 3.2 GHz estimate). Also 8x faster for AVX workloads (Jag was 0.5 rate AVX, Zen2 is 2.0 rate) such as ISPC and Unity Burst.”
So, ARM A78 is already apparently punching well above the zen 2 CPU in terms of IPC.
Granted, caveat, these are still GeekBench 5 scores and aren’t indicative of real world numbers. But at least the Single Threaded it is pretty potent of a CPU.
If only they went for the 6-8 core A78 though
Sorry that I can’t really answer to the rest of your post! And I know I’m not Thraktor!
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It will fall behind the PS5 and Series X.
Alovon11
Like Like
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Well, yeah on average it will fall behind the PS5
But it likely will run right behind the PS5 in some cases and maybe match up to it in fringe occasions.
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Ever the optimist eh?
Simba1
Bob-omb
Ps5 is a clean generational break compared to Ps4, yes. They even launched it explicitly saying it’s a generational break “we believe in it!”
Don’t forget, they stopped manufacturing their 2016 pro model before the ps5 even launched. The plan was to stop producing ALL ps4 models by the end of last year.
Sony’s “commitment” to cross gen games for 2 years or so is more out of worry concerning software tie ratio for the ps5 right now than anything
Nintendo does not plan on ending all Switch model production within a year or two after this new model releases. Nintendo does not want this ~$500 pro model to be the only price point option going forward. Nintendo does not plan on focusing all its game development to be Pro model only by 2024. Nintendo does not plan to stop having new games running on the OLED model by 2024.
Nintendo does not want to release a new model this year that will be considered a generational break from the Switch.
Switch 2 would imply to console consumers that they are planning on phasing out the OLED model they just released last year. I don’t think doing that makes sense at all, imo.
They will want to market this model as simply a way to play the Switch library games better…for those who want that kind of thing. And they will try to name it accordingly how it does this.
They are absolutely not releasing this and expecting everyone, or even the majority, to have moved over to this expensive model after 2 years.
PS5/XBS are more like "iterative successors" than like clean brakes, PS5/XBS have full BC and 90% of all new games (so its not point only about Sony games) are cross gen.
Yes, Sony planed to stop manufacture PS4 units after PS5 launch, and that probably would be only difference with Nintendo and new Switch hardware, point that Nintendo will keep selling current Switch models at least 1-2 years (in order to have different price points), everything else would be almost exactly same.
Thing is that Nintendo before Switch always had two platforms in sale with very different price points, and now when then have only one platform they will want to keep selling older models to have different price points (they will certanly not selling only $400 model), point that we again talk about ARM+NVIDIA hardware, makes thing easier for Nintendo regardless BC and cross gen support.
No way this new model will be $499, we most likely talking about $399 price point.
I dont see why Nintendo wouldnt around 2024. start focusing games only for "Switch 2" (IMO it will be marketed like "Switch 2" not "Pro").
OLED was launched in 2021., OLED is revision not new platform so Nintendo doent need to support it with games more than around 3 years,
for comparison, New Nintendo 2DS XL was launched in 2017. despite fact that 3DS line is completely discounted in 2020.
Switch OLED is just revision nothing more (its not new platform), that will keep receiving games (at least Nintendo games) at least 2 years after "Switch 2" launch, nothing wrong with that.
They can easily market this new Switch like next gen Switch (Switch 2) despite older versions will keep getting games for at least around 2 years after "Switch 2" launch.
Offcourse they will not expect that all current Switch owner move to next gen Switch, not every user or potential buyer have $399, and thats why they will keep selling current models that will have lower price points at least 2 years after this Switch 2 launch.
And the series x.
Alovon11
Like Like
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KCannon
Tektite
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With the rumored tech, it could easily surpass $400 (especially when it's supposedly stronger than the Deck). Not to the point of $500, but somewhere in-between.
Paper Cheese
Piranha Plant
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Huh, interesting, this isn’t what I’d want to see happen but it also doesn’t seem like it’d be a disaster. What’s your thinking?
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That's $100 more (at a minimum) than any new generation device Nintendo has put out before. It would get a lot of bad press from that alone.
Plus there's the fact that they'll have 3 other devices on the market this holiday for $200, $300 and $350 but this new $400+ will be touted as the one that you'll need to buy to get their games in the future. That's a really bad look and can do a fair amount of damage to sales of their current Switch line.
Marketing it as a premium version of the current Switch would go down a lot better. You don't make it seem like you need to have it if you want future Nintendo games, instead it's just a higher end version of the same family. People will be a lot more accepting of a high sticker price for a "premium version".
Branduil
Bob-omb
Switch OLED doesn't have exclusive games, it's just another Switch. The whole reason to buy it is the screen. This console is going to have a ton of exclusive games which aren't possible on OG Switch. It needs a name that establishes it can play games the vanilla Switch can't.Is Switch Oled a bad name when TV mode doesn't have an oled display (if the player has a led TV)?
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So you're suggesting they lie. Huh.
NineTailSage
Bob-omb
Haven't seen any changes from all of the Ampere lineup, but I do like the idea you mentioned before about deactivating TPC's(SM's) on the fly for portable mode. Those higher clocks with fewer SM's and using 16 ROP's would definitely provide a higher pixel fill rate and probably better TDP than the full GPU but at lower clocks.
I guess this makes sense, with each Ampere GPC have 2 banks of 8-ROP's=16, that would stay consistent.
My Tulpa
Bob-omb
Doubt
OP
OP
I agree when Nintendo's concerned, at least for a couple of years.
However, I can see third party developers, especially developers outside Japan, shift game development from the Nintendo Switch to the DLSS model* relatively quickly.
You don't build hardware like this without intending to put out exclusive games for it. They may not come right away, but they absolutely will be coming.
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No?
Dark Cloud
Warpstar Knight
Don’t agree. Nintendo will allow third party to make exclusive games for it
NineTailSage
Bob-omb
So apparently this same hacker group have stolen 190GB of data from Samsung as well(no ransom threat as of yet).
I do wonder though after what came out from Nvidia if something leaks from this Samsung data breach either in the components or manufacturing side related to the new Switch.
wccftech.com
I do wonder though after what came out from Nvidia if something leaks from this Samsung data breach either in the components or manufacturing side related to the new Switch.
Samsung Gets Hacked by Same Group That Compromised NVIDIA’s Data, 190GB Worth of Info Allegedly Stolen
The same group that leaked NVIDIA’s data hacked into Samsung, allegedly releasing 190GB of stolen information on the web
wccftech.com
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Zeroth
No
I have a hard time believing a new device with an all new GPU and processor is meant to just be a pro version of the switch with a newer generation device coming up years from now.
This is too much of a jump and it would be insane to develop games exclusively for it if years from now a newer device with a different architecture comes out.
This 4K device will be the sucessor to the switch and eventually phase out its games, just like the current ps4 to ps5 relationship. I fully expect a name to represent this properly, specially after the WiiU fiasco.
This is too much of a jump and it would be insane to develop games exclusively for it if years from now a newer device with a different architecture comes out.
This 4K device will be the sucessor to the switch and eventually phase out its games, just like the current ps4 to ps5 relationship. I fully expect a name to represent this properly, specially after the WiiU fiasco.
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You said "You don't make it seem like you need to have it if you want future Nintendo games, instead it's just a higher end version of the same family." So, you're either saying there won't be future Nintendo games that require this new hardware and it is purely a revision for Switch games to be playable in an upscaled manner, or you're suggesting Nintendo lies to its consumers until such a time that it's undeniably true. So.... which one is it?
Branduil
Bob-omb
It will probably be like Xbox where most Nintendo games in the first couple of years are cross-gen before they go all-in on exclusive games for Drake.
3rd parties, though, are absolutely going to release exclusive games for it right away, simply because OG Switch is incapable of running the games.
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Who is saying anything about a newer generation device coming up years from now? Personally I don't expect anything until 2027-2028 or later.
I'm saying there will be no Nintendo games announced anytime soon that need this hardware. Maybe in 2024-2025.
I'm not saying they'll literally say "you don't need this to play new Nintendo games", I'm just referring to how it will be positioned. Mainly as a way to play upgraded games and some third party games not on Switch.
Sol
Moblin
This is why I'm inclined to believe Nintendo may position this more as a true successor, ie, a "Switch 2".
The hardware is going to be good enough that there won't be anything that could provide another substantial upgrade from Drake until, like you said, around 2027-2028.
I just don't see Nintendo eventually switching over to developing exclusive games for what they positioned as a premium Switch from day one. Which they will have to do if Drake is planned to last until the late 2020s.
I know they did this with the GBC back in the 90s, but it doesn't seem like it would work today. I mean could anyone imagine Pokemon Gen 10 coming out for "Switch Pro" in 2025, but not the base Switch? Especially if Nintendo markets it as just a premium Switch model from the start? It would be like Sony suddenly making games for PS4 Pro only after having initially marketed it as just a premium PS4.
At this point I tend to believe that this is going to be the Nintendo Switch 2, with a ~2 year crossover period where the device gets exclusive 3rd party games almost immediately, but all first party games use the Switch as a base through the end of 2024 or so. Plus we're coming up close on the 5-6 year period when Nintendo has almost invariably released a completely new system, so in terms of timing it makes sense.
The difference this time would be instead of cutting clean from the previous gen immediately, it adopts the path Sony took with 1st party titles being cross-gen for the first couple years.
Eclissi
Moblin
It would be enough to insert the classic "Only for...".
I'm not saying the console will definitely be called Switch 4k, but just that's a possibility.
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@Thraktor i forgot to mention, but i think with respect to efficiency that you did your tests on, we have to consider that the larger amount of cache relative to the amount of shaders present helps here for the efficiency sake
Unsure how much really. But it should definitely help the whole GPU be require less to perform similar actions.
Caveats considered of course
Unsure how much really. But it should definitely help the whole GPU be require less to perform similar actions.
Caveats considered of course
My Tulpa
Bob-omb
Well, no way this new model will release at just $50 more than the OLED.
That was $350 and it only offered you a slightly better screen. And it sold well.
This thing has to be at least $450, imo. They could even get away with $500 for what it’s offering.
Since it’s not a successor, it doesn’t matter if the price tag makes buyers shy for a year or two. It’s meant to be an alternative. Nintendo will still offer various entry models into the ecosystem fro cheaper. People who really want enhanced Switch gaming will buy it.
Not a good comparison. 2ds XL released ~6.5 years after the 3ds launch…when the 3ds lifecycle well well into its declining years already.
The OLED was released ~4.5 years after the Switch launched…when the Switch lifecycle was still in upswing mode. Nintendo expects growth in its 6th year on the market.
Nintendo will probably start pulling back support of the 115 million Switches in circulation when this new model arrives…around about 2026 or so.
There is something wrong with that. Most of the active switch gamers in 2025 will still be gaming on the current models, not this new expensive one.
Of course they could easily do that. The point is it doesn’t make sense to do it. Why not just treat it as a mid gen upgrade model? What’s the downside?
Why bother keeping the next big Mario or big Zelda or big Pokémon game in 2025 off the other devices? Why not just also release version of the game there?
My Tulpa
Bob-omb
Oh, sorry, I was referring to the “tons of exclusives” comment.
I’m not doubting there will be exclusives made for it, of course there will.
I doubt many publishers will focus on tons of “Switch pro only” versions of their games when they decide to spend the effort to make a switch game.
frog
Spin it, boys!
time to change my Samsung account password...So apparently this same hacker group have stolen 190GB of data from Samsung as well(no ransom threat as of yet).
I do wonder though after what came out from Nvidia if something leaks from this Samsung data breach either in the components or manufacturing side related to the new Switch.
Samsung Gets Hacked by Same Group That Compromised NVIDIA’s Data, 190GB Worth of Info Allegedly Stolen
The same group that leaked NVIDIA’s data hacked into Samsung, allegedly releasing 190GB of stolen information on the web
Branduil
Bob-omb
I can't see a price tag above $399. But it wouldn't be $50 more than OLED, they would cut the price to OLED first. I suspect they'll stop manufacturing the OG model, leaving just a $299 OLED and Switch Lite.
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