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Interesting. Keep up the good you guys!
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StarTopic Future Nintendo Hardware & Technology Speculation & Discussion |ST| (Read the staff posts before commenting!)
- Thread starter Dakhil
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OP
OP
Samsung's 3 nm process node apparently allows 35% area reduction, 30% performance increase, and 50% power consumption decrease.
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Hm should we parse those improvements as sth which occur simultaneously or choose one over the others?
Also I'm curious if they will manage to improve yield over their allegedly problematic 5nm litho.
lemonfresh
#Team2024
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First time in a thread like this, and I will open with a question, do you guys consider The switch a 8th or 9th gen console?
Deleted User 1
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Seriously though, I think seeing consoles in generations in terms of "power" are over. Like even the Switch is weird in the sense that it is the successor to the Wii U and the 3DS simultaneously.
ReddDreadtheLead
#TeamLate2025WithAPotentialForEarly2026
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Hard to say, hardware strength and feature has never been the true indicator of what is one gen and what is another, but I’d say based solely on the previous device it’s Nintendo’s 6th gen portable device. They have 6 gems of portables yes. Or 7th if you include the VB.
Or 7th gen Nintendo HC, successor to their 6th HC they’ve released.
This is the only way gens really make sense in terms of hardware, successor to the previous and nth placement depends on the amount of systems released.
And even then, the rules Wikipedia uses of what a generation is flip flops continuously where some rules apply to some but others don’t apply, so i discount their definition which isn’t consistent.
and for convo sake, I consider the other two as 5th gen and 4th gen respectively.
OP
OP
I think it depends on how complicated Samsung's implementation of Gate-All-Around Field Effect Transistor (GAAFET) is to execute. But I'm rather pessimistic, considering Samsung apparently still fails to improve yields for Samsung's 5 nm*/4 nm* process nodes, based on rumours so far.
* nm is purely a marketing nomenclature for all the foundry companies
I reject the premise of the question.
I've been increasingly coming around to the opinion that the numbered console generations are a fairly egregious case of Wikipedia citogenesis that only managed to last as long as they have because there was an extended period where everything was more or less aligned by chance. Trying to track console generations across different platform holders just leads to a bunch of mental acrobatics to try and shove things into neat little boxes that are only debateably useful.
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Specially to Intel that jumped from 14nm++++++++++++++ to like 7nm and to 20A in the future just like that, Thanos snap and all.
As an aside note look at this pretty picture:
I talked about overconsolidation of the silicon industry in a previous post.
Deleted User 1
Self-requested account removal
Specially to Intel that jumped from 14nm++++++++++++++ to like 7nm and to 20A in the future just like that, Thanos snap and all.
As an aside note look at this pretty picture:
I talked about overconsolidation of the silicon industry in a previous post.
An offtopic question but Ill ask it anyway because it confuses me somewhat. Why is TSMC ahead of Samsung and Intel in process nodes even though they all use the same ASML EUV machines?
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I don’t know. But I will speculate that it’s because they are the opposite of a fabless company, as in they are a pure manufacturer of chips, and maybe that allowed them to focus solely on the manufacturing side leaving the designing work to the fabless
OP
OP
I think one reason is that TSMC has the most EUV lithography machines out of the three foundry companies.
Intel's trying to have more ASML's High-NA EUV lithography machines than TSMC in order compete with TSMC with Intel's Intel 18A process node.
~
Anyway, the latest Nate the Hate episode seems to be delayed.
ArchedThunder
Uncle Beerus
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I honestly hope the Switch 4K doesn’t allow people to play games off of an SD card. I want fast storage for short load times.
Wait, is 12 CPU cores what were expecting? I assumed 8.On the topic of custom, custom can be a very major thing, it could also be pretty much nothing significant.
Stock would be off the shelf, the custom in the NSW case, that we know of, is that the A53s were turned off because quite frankly, they were useless and even Nintendo saw that.
But, all TX1s since then have been like the one in the Switch, aka A53s not on.
In relation to our Denmark friend the black knight, Dane has some customization done to it to accommodate for Nintendo's needs, based off the ORIN family of systems. It had no need for a DLA, so that can be removed. Has no need for any automotive parts, doesn't need that many SMs to do its job, and doesn't need that many CPU cores either for its purpose.
Cut down variant.
As you can see, a significant portion of ORIN, probably over 50%, is solely to things not game related most likely.
6-8 CPU cores, 6-8 gigs of ram. Someone else can talk about the number of GPU cores. We're expecting more modern GPU and CPU cores none the less, and probably more and maybe faster storage. The big feature is possibly DLSS for 4k output or to bring games that struggle to hit 1080p to 1080p.
There's a lot of argument if 720p is fine for that screen size, or if they'll bump to 1080p. I think we can rely on it being OLED.
The wild card is if Nintendo will have a gimmick or not (like the Analog Stick on the n64, the triggers on the GC controller, motion control like the Wii, or the separate screen like the Wii U).
Personally, I think the gimmick will be minor and will not shake the boat - possibly the inclusion of analog triggers. I think they'll probably follow the PS1 -> PS2 transition - more of the same but better with full backwards compatibility that slightly enhances things. In the PS2, it was faster loading times due to the faster optical drive, with a bonus of DVD playback.
TonyBaduy
Moblin
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Nintendo will always add gimmicks, hopefully the next one is a good one (unlike the Wii U tablet). I think most of the time they introduce good ones though.
OP
OP
12 CPU cores is for Orin, not for Dane, considering Dane's a custom variation of Orin, according to rumours.
~
Anyway, Samsung Foundry has recently released news, as well as a keynote video for Samsung Foundry Forum 2021.
The only mention of Samsung's 8 nm* process nodes so far is for Samsung's 8 nm* radio frequency (RF) platform for 5G, etc. I wonder if that's the reason why Samsung's 8LPA process node was announced during IEDM 2020, but was never mentioned again afterwards.
Anyway, Samsung claims that Samsung's Multi-Bridge Channel Field Effect Transistors (MBCFETs), Samsung's name for GAAFETs, for Samsung's 3 nm* process nodes, consume 60% less power and have 45% more performance than Samsung's FinFETs used for Samsung's 7LPP process node.
Samsung also claims that Samsung's MBCFETs are 45% smaller, has over 13% higher max frequency at the same power consumption, and has over 20% lower power consumption, compared to Samsung's FinFETs used for Samsung's 7LPP process node.
Samsung claims Samsung's 3GAA process node has 15% more performance, consumes 25% less power, and takes up 25% less space, compared to Samsung's 4LPE process node.
And Samsung claims Samsung's 3GAP process node has 3 nanosheets, with Samsung's 2GAP process node increasing the number of nanosheets to 4.
* purely a marketing nomenclature for foundry companies, including Samsung
D
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Sadly you are right. I personally never used hdrumble. Wish that money was spent on something else.
lemonfresh
#Team2024
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and call it the virtual boy 2 /s
I think that gimmick is there, but it will not in the primary form factor.
Like we have a Lite form factor, I think there's room for a VR form factor, a TV only form factor, and maybe a Deluxe form factor. People always seem to fight me on this though.
I've thought on this more and I might just be wrong. A dedicated mux might not actually be necessary.I found this blog post from Netherlands that compiled pretty much all available technical info about the OLED Model. Funny enough, the blogger also cited this thread. (Hi!) Their chip comparison table for the dock is very handy [Google translated]:
@Jersh Looks like there's no mux chip, unless it's hidden.
Maybe we'll find out soon, maybe not lol.
OP
OP
TonyBaduy
Moblin
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I don't think that was a bad choice, it seems the industry is moving towards better rumble anyway, given the PS5 uses it too. The IR camera may have been a bad choice as basically nothing uses it.
ReddDreadtheLead
#TeamLate2025WithAPotentialForEarly2026
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Ring-Fit lol
Marce-chan
Magical Girls <3
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Sorry but just so I can catch up on the speculation: general consensus based in insider knowledge, lineup and chip information is 2022 release of a 4K Switch?
OP
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To me, holiday 2022 is the earliest I expect the DLSS model* to be launched.
Pooroomoo
Triangulum Strategem
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IR camera use: Ring Fit, Labo, Game Builder Garage, Mario Kart Live, Brain Training (I think).
ArchedThunder
Uncle Beerus
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Nintendo should get rumble that matches the quality of PS5’s and call it 4K Rumble.
Marce-chan
Magical Girls <3
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Thank you very much for answering.
I'm of the same opinion, one year after OLED. Even tho it's very near compared to the 2 year gap of Lite and OLED.
I would love for it to release like September 2022 alongside Zelda.
I can see Zelda releasing summer or fall 2022 by its own tho, and the DLSS launching alongside Metroid Prime 4 and/or Mario Kart in 2023.
I expect it to be a really great enhancement and new addition to the Switch family, but not really a successor. I will get exclusive games of course but just like the New 3DS and Game Boy Color got. The line between revision and successor will be blurred tho.
ReddDreadtheLead
#TeamLate2025WithAPotentialForEarly2026
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I think space becomes an issue, since the motors in the Switch and PS5 are different despite being from the same factory and company.
The Pro controller on the other hand could use a refresh where they add an updated rumble motor.
Probably call it SS 4K Rumble
OP
OP
Probably not in terms of the CPU, although the difference in terms of CPU performance won't be big, but probably in terms of the GPU.
Look over there
Bob-omb
Huh, while I kinda knew that Jaguars were on the smaller side since they're tablet/mobile CPUs, I didn't really expect them to be comparable to A57's.
...PS4/XBO were basically two tablet/cheap laptop processors bolted together along with some desktop grade GPU, huh?
Also, looking at that area reduction going from TSMC 28nm to 20nm, that... actually does land in the ballpark of what's stated in the table for TSMC here.
Typically, performance and power as they're presented in marketing material are choose one over the other. Like these nodes are usually promoted as '+X% performance/frequency at target power' or '-Y% power at target performance/frequency'.
Area reduction usually applies regardless, but the caveat is that they're probably referring to logic being shrunken at that rate, as historically SRAM shrinks at a lower rate.
I don't know what's going on with Samsung, but for Intel, the story I see is that back when they still had the lead with 14nm (before all the +'s, so mid 2010's), they got too ambitious with the leap they wanted to make with their 10nm node + supposedly upper management didn't spend enough in the right places = giant hole to dig out of. Hubris can be a killer. I'm not sure if the version of 10nm that's used to make consumer products right now matches up with the original vision.
TSMC basically just chugged along, nailing their recent nodes.
HD rumble is underutilized/misused/ignored by most 3rd parties. When it's done right, IMHO it enriches the gaming experience: Clubhouse Games, Luigi's Mansion 3, Super Mario Party, Mario + Rabbids (a rare example of good 3rd party HD rumble), etc. Sony seems to be doing a better job convincing 3rd parties to support haptic feedback. I wonder what Nintendo can do to improve HD rumble's adoption.
On a related note, I'd been on the lookout for 3rd party controllers that replicate HD rumble. It was a fruitless search because even the officially licensed Hori and PowerA controllers don't. There are some products on Amazon claiming the feature, but the reviews expose them as untruthful. Finally this year two 3rd parties released controllers with linear actuators (instead of the traditional vibrating motors) that are truly capable of HD rumble:
GuliKit Elves Pro
AmiiPad
TonyBaduy
Moblin
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At least games on Switch are more likely to support gyro aiming, unlike on PS4/5 (do the XBSX/S controllers have gyro even?)HD rumble is underutilized/misused/ignored by most 3rd parties. When it's done right, IMHO it enriches the gaming experience: Clubhouse Games, Luigi's Mansion 3, Super Mario Party, Mario + Rabbids (a rare example of good 3rd party HD rumble), etc. Sony seems to be doing a better job convincing 3rd parties to support haptic feedback. I wonder what Nintendo can do to improve HD rumble's adoption.
On a related note, I'd been on the lookout for 3rd party controllers that replicate HD rumble. It was a fruitless search because even the officially licensed Hori and PowerA controllers don't. There are some products on Amazon claiming the feature, but the reviews expose them as untruthful. Finally this year two 3rd parties released controllers with linear actuators (instead of the traditional vibrating motors) that are truly capable of HD rumble:
GuliKit Elves Pro
AmiiPad
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And because of active cooling, it will have better sustained performance. Mobile phone’s chips are like supernovae, they shine bright for a short amount of time
ReddDreadtheLead
#TeamLate2025WithAPotentialForEarly2026
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Mm, probably, but also probably not. It’s more complex than that
SD888, according to the GB5 which is a generalized test and not necessarily indicative of total game performance, just general CPU perf, the SD888 can hover around 1100 or so in single core and around 3500-3700 in multi-score. But it should be noted, this is peak performance, not the sustained performance. On top of having a heterogenous setup with 3 different types of cores, when Dane may have 2 types or be a homogenous CPU set up.
Dane will obviously be clocked lower than the high end flagship SoCs, and use the A78. Single core, it should not get close to the SD888, but in multicore it should be around the Dimensity 1200 multi core score (~3300 or so, at most I reckon). And be able to sustain that which is important to note here again, and what differentiates the Dane from your regular degular phone.
GPU-wise, it should curbstomp them and some older low end laptops should be matched and exceeded by Dane with MLTAASS (DLSS), plus having a much faster RAM despite having a probably equal amount, which should help the unified system
And this is a guess, but on-die memory is possible which helps the best it can with performance. Only because of the tendency Nintendo has to go for an exotic memory or prioritize faster memory in some way.
Except the switch, but they might go back to having dedicated on-die memory. This is only a guess, to remind you, not necessarily an indication of what is to come.
Ozeiyo
Paratroopa
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I hope it has SD card support, though. If only to store old switch games or whatever, like the way Series X supports old hard drives.
Alovon11
Like Like
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I've said it before, FSR and other upscaling methods are the future and we likely are going to enter the death of native resolution with UE5's Upsampling, FSR, and that likely will accelerate when the Dane comes out as it brings DLSS into the fold.
D
Deleted member 645
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Yeah hopefully the next switch really brings a lot to the table. I say again for me hardware doesn’t matter. If publishers aren’t supporting with the their big IPs then I will just stick with OLED. Will upgrade to next squat some point but it wouldn’t be a must buy just because of a performance boost.
OP
OP
I wonder if Dane not being able to be taped out has anything to do with Nano Next being delayed from 2021 to 2023, considering the differences between the Jetson roadmap at around January 2020 and the Jetson roadmap at around February 2021.
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it does make it feel like Dane was to come ahead of Orin. but to have enough binned chips for the Jetson Nano? sounds like Nvidia didn't have too high expectations of SamsungI wonder if Dane not being able to be taped out has anything to do with Nano Next being delayed from 2021 to 2023, considering the differences between the Jetson roadmap at around January 2020 and the Jetson roadmap at around February 2021.
OP
OP
Today, Nintendo released an interview with Ko Shiota and Toru Yamashita about the OLED model in four parts. Here are some tidbits that I've found interesting, although I need to warn everyone that it can be very long to read.
(Part 1)
(Part 1)
(Part 2)
(Part 3)And you didn't want to change the thickness of the console?
Yamashita: No, in terms of the compatibility of Nintendo Switch – OLED Model being able to fit in the existing Nintendo Switch dock, the thickness isn't something we could easily change. Also, if we made it thicker, then there would be a gap when you attach the Joy-Con controllers. That wouldn’t be a good fit, so making the console thicker wasn't an option. By the way, we changed the material for the stand from plastic to metal, and this is because compared to plastic, metal can be made thinner while still maintaining its strength. This is another thing that isn't mentioned on the official website, but you might notice when you try it out.
Shiota: We could make the stand thinner by using metal, but because the surface area of the stand was bigger, even with the thinner OLED display it still wasn't enough. The people in charge of the stand and the display discussed things like changing the thickness of the display screen cover, and in the end they worked together to make many adjustments, stretching the limits.
Is the device heavier because of the new metal stand?
Shiota: To have hinges that can support the stand at any angle already makes it pretty heavy, but when you replace plastic with metal, even at the same volume, it will be considerably heavier. But, for the overall weight of the console unit, it’s an increase of only about 20g. To put it differently, it's because we scaled down in other places. Even with the original Nintendo Switch, we naturally tried to scale down everywhere we could to make it as light as possible, so it was not easy to find something we could scale down even further. But thanks to the help of the mechanical engineers, they came up with various ideas of scaling down while still maintaining its strength, and I believe we were able to achieve our goal.
Were new onboard speakers part of the original plan for the new model?
Yamashita: During the development of the new model, we wanted to achieve the same or better audio quality and acoustic pressure than existing Nintendo Switch models. When we tried using the open-type speakers , which we were using on our previous models, in the new model, we found that due to design restrictions, the sound ended up being quieter than before. We made some attempts to see if we could improve the design keeping the same speakers, but in the end we decided to use closed-type speakers, where the sound quality and pressure can be increased thanks to the back of the speaker being sealed.
But doesn't the sound get muffled if it's sealed?
Yamashita: Speakers produce sound from both the front and back by their vibrations. Closed-type speakers produce a clearer sound by preventing the collision of sound coming from the front and back. These closed types are often also used in smartphones and tablets, but those devices mostly use speakers that are already manufactured in a closed format and are incorporated as is. But, in order to adopt speakers that would be as big as possible within the limited space inside Nintendo Switch – OLED Model while producing satisfactory audio quality and acoustic pressure, we needed to use the structure of the console and design a sealed space at the back ourselves.
So using open-type speakers like before would reduce the volume, but in order to use closed-type speakers you'd have the difficulty of creating a sealed design in order to produce a clear sound.
Yamashita: Yes. If the seal is not intact, then the audio quality would be reduced despite changing the speakers. So the biggest challenge was preparing a space to install the speaker while assuring there is space for the sealed area, to create clearer vibrations within a limited space.
We talked about the sound from the speakers being louder, but did this change the power consumption?
Yamashita: Strictly speaking, the maximum amount of power that can be sent to the speakers is higher than the current Nintendo Switch models. In actuality, however, speakers aren't usually used in a way to constantly output their maximum volume, so overall there is barely any difference in power consumption.
Shiota: Still, the maximum power consumption happens when it's outputting at the maximum volume, so we have decided the settings by considering the balance of how much power we should allow it to use and by considering the circuitry as a whole. From an overall perspective, changing the speakers hasn't led to a reduction of battery life.
Yamashita: With this new model, we have challenged ourselves to adjust, without changing the circuitry itself, the various settings in order to create a clear sound while enabling as much volume as possible, and this setting adjustment was extremely difficult.
Shiota: Rather than independently improving the speakers, mechanical design, and power, like with the OLED display, all developers combined many minor adjustments to increase the performance of the speakers overall.
Yamashita: Speaking about the adjustments of the speakers, a developer who worked on the sound adjustments has noticed that he could more easily detect the abnormal sounds using the sound of a piano, so he was adjusting the sounds with the piano piece that he himself composed. He said he had never imagined that an engineer like him would ever compose music.
(Part 4)The HDMI cable is also different. I quite like this change; please feel how flexible it is.
(Touching) Indeed, softer than the one that was previously included.
Yamashita: Improving cables has been considered for a long time, and some of our staff had been working on it, and it happened to align with the release of Nintendo Switch – OLED Model.
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Hearing the basis and testing for some of design decisions is fascinating. We usually don't get glimpses like this into their design methodology. Thanks for sharing.
OP
OP
I think one takeaway from the interview is that the rumour from DigiTimes about the new Nintendo Switch model using a magnesium alloy body seems to be partially true, considering Ko Shiota's and Toru Yamashita's comments on the kickstand, with the details I consider important highlighted in yellow. (Of course, I could be reading this wrong.)
And you didn't want to change the thickness of the console?
Yamashita: No, in terms of the compatibility of Nintendo Switch – OLED Model being able to fit in the existing Nintendo Switch dock, the thickness isn’t something we could easily change. Also, if we made it thicker, then there would be a gap when you attach the Joy-Con controllers. That wouldn’t be a good fit, so making the console thicker wasn’t an option. By the way, we changed the material for the stand from plastic to metal, and this is because compared to plastic, metal can be made thinner while still maintaining its strength. This is another thing that isn't mentioned on the official website, but you might notice when you try it out.
Shiota: We could make the stand thinner by using metal, but because the surface area of the stand was bigger, even with the thinner OLED display it still wasn't enough. The people in charge of the stand and the display discussed things like changing the thickness of the display screen cover, and in the end they worked together to make many adjustments, stretching the limits.
Is the device heavier because of the new metal stand?
Shiota: To have hinges that can support the stand at any angle already makes it pretty heavy, but when you replace plastic with metal, even at the same volume, it will be considerably heavier. But, for the overall weight of the console unit, it's an increase of only about 20g. To put it differently, it's because we scaled down in other places. Even with the original Nintendo Switch, we naturally tried to scale down everywhere we could to make it as light as possible, so it was not easy to find something we could scale down even further. But thanks to the help of the mechanical engineers, they came up with various ideas of scaling down while still maintaining its strength, and I believe we were able to achieve our goal.
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