davec00ke
Octorok
The wii u did not have an soc. The IBM cpu and Amd gpu did not cost more than the ps4 apu, that was made up crap on gaf
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StarTopic Future Nintendo Hardware & Technology Speculation & Discussion |ST| (Read the staff posts before commenting!)
- Thread starter Dakhil
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Nintendo would be paying for the board, I assume. if they're gonna use a similarly sized tablet body, then there's not too much point in a dense board
davec00ke
Octorok
Nvidia had nothing to do with the board
ShadowFox08
Paratroopa
I wonder if they did that on purpose, outside of saving money. Sticking to 1.5x GPU instead of 2-3x. We would have gotten something closer to an x bone x upgrade in a power jump..
.Having a handheld Wii would have been awesome. Imagine a 480p screen too, and being able to play Xenoblade that looks identical or even better than the Wii in some cases. though that would put the Wii u at a weird spot. Would have brought up the price by a lot though.
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I imagine that this may have been influenced by a desire to make LunchPack development easier, but that's just my guess.
Surely this was at least in part due to battery life, but I agree that I don't think Nintendo wanted to support a (dare I say) Dane-like product succession
Technically it had a multi chip module (mcm). Do you have a source on the price?
It was probably a balance thing. Old 3DS is heavily CPU-bound, so that's the component that needed to be focused on.
davec00ke
Octorok
So Nintendo managed to sell Wii U at a launch price of $299 with a fucking tablet compared to the PS4 $399. Yet your saying the wii u had more expensive chips.
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- Pronouns
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For reference, Chipworks (now TechInsights) also made a quick estimate on Wii U's BOM in their teardown analysis.
https://www.techinsights.com/blog/nintendo-wii-u-teardown
https://www.techinsights.com/blog/nintendo-wii-u-teardown
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You’re comparing the MSRP price to what people are referring to as part of the BoM price of one component. An MSRP that includes a 500GB hard drive and several times the amount of RAM modules than the Wii U had.
The two aren’t really Apples to Apple comparison.
This is off, if I’m not mistaken the Wii U was sold at a loss for both models, but this pricing doesn’t indicate anywhere near what would be loss territory.
Lelouch0612
Growing Install Base
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The WiiU was not sold at a loss which allowed Nintendo to not lose that much money because of its failure.
The 3DS post price cut was sold at a loss.
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Are you sure? After googling it Iwata said it was sold below the manufacturing price for every Wii U sold:
Nintendo Wii U to be sold at loss - BBC News
Nintendo says its forthcoming Wii U games console will be sold at a loss, reversing its previous strategy.
www.bbc.com
Unless you mean that, due to it failing so badly, they didn’t really lose much.
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Even that wouldn't be true, because (as I remember it, could be wrong) they didn't sell through their original production run until a year and a half into Wii U's lifespan. So they produced it higher than MSRP and sold it at that same production price for at least the entire first year or so, plus likely had to pay a penalty for lower overall production volume than what they anticipated (costs money when you book a production line that doesn't move at the expected rate), which inevitably meant costs did not decrease as one would expect.Are you sure? After googling it Iwata said it was sold below the manufacturing price for every Wii U sold:
Nintendo Wii U to be sold at loss - BBC News
Nintendo says its forthcoming Wii U games console will be sold at a loss, reversing its previous strategy.
Unless you mean that, due to it failing so badly, they didn’t really lose much.
Kenka
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The bolded part is interesting in regard to the eventual transition from Mariko to Dane (assuming nothing comes in between!)
Thank you.
Dekuman
Starman
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I think the original plan was to sell the original production run at a much faster pace than what ended up happening.
I think Wii U, if you look at the console itself, was very likely sold at close to break-even or a loss. I too recall a reggie quote from the time saying they make money after 1 game is sold with the console.
Branduil
Bob-omb
The Wii U chipset was bad but what really killed it was the tablet which appealed to no one, added a bunch of unnecessary cost, and contributed to the confusion over the Wii U being a new console. In retrospect we can see the aspects of the console which were better realized in the Switch, but the implementation in the Wii U was inconsistent and half-assed; see the off-screen play which was potentially neat, but couldn't work with games which required two screens, and there was no dedicated button or switch for off-screen play so you had to figure out how to do it for each individual game. The battery life when just using it as a controller was atrocious as well.
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Yeah they had a solid core concept (off TV play) which they bungled incredibly hard by adding a ton of other ideas and features that were entirely unnecessary. I remember reading that they only decided to add a touch screen to the tablet like a week before E3 2011, previously it was simply just going to be a non-touch screen designed for off-tv play.
They clearly wanted to make a Switch but couldn't, and had internal trouble coming up with a way to sell a lesser version of that concept on its own.
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Do you mean the first part or the second part of my quote?
Why would it be made up? The Wii U used an MCM design and had a large amount of on die memory, had more cache to it for the CPU, had an extra ARM processor that wasn’t originally present, and included essentially a virtual Wii inside the machine. The Wii U had a more complex design than the PS4 APU, despite being much weaker than the PS4. The XBox One APU is what would be more expensive than both the PS4 and Wii U innards.
davec00ke
Octorok
Because only one person made that claim without providing any evidence. The Wii u did not have a more complex design. MCM are not complicated and not exspensive either.
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Alovon11
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You know MCM is still expensive and sort of complex now right?
Imagine how complex it would be back in 2012
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davec00ke
Octorok
The Snes and ps one has MCM back in the 90's. Thats how they reduced the costs
Alovon11
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Yeah, but that is more or less MCM Gen 1.
MCM now =/= MCM in the early 2010's =/= MCM in the 90s
Just like how Samsung 5nm =/= TSMC 5nm or how 1TFLOPs Ampere =/= 1TFLOPs RDNA2 =/= 1TFLOPs w/o Infinity Cache RDNA2
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Mr Swine
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Different times and different tech. You can’t compare something that was made in the early 90’s with something that was made in the early 2010’s roughly 20 years apart
I brought up Imagination's RT demonstration from 2016 a couple times, but this is the first time I've seen this bit of info. the PCIe card they're using here is a 10W gpu. given the date, this is probably a 20nm or 16nm gpu. these were limited run, so making a couple test boards wouldn't break the bank on a relatively new node. unfortunate these never got independent testing
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….what? You are using a comparison from the early 90s to try and claim that the MCM of the 2010s was cheap and wasn’t complex?
consoles moved away from the MCM design to a single chip that houses the GPU and CPU and it’s associated elements. The PS4 APU only had the GPU, the CPU, the cache plus memory controllers and logic. The Wii U MCM design had embedded DRAM, the cache, the ARM(?) processor, the powerPC cores, the integrated Wii GPU and it’s associated embedded memory, the Wii U GPU, the logic and the memory controllers and you consider that to be a simpler design than the PS4 APU? When it wasn’t even on the same die? Hello? It wasn’t a single die, it was two dies on a single substrate.
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Second part.
I'm not aware of there being an MCM in either of those systems. For something to be an MCM, the dies have to be in the same package, not just on the same board.
Dekuman
Starman
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I have to wonder if you're a time traveller as all your references to Nintendo are always from the 1990s.
I am also unaware of SNES or PSOne being MCM.
- Here's the SNES board, the CPU and PPU are separate discrete chips on the motherboard quite far apart. Source: https://www.copetti.org/writings/consoles/super-nintendo/
-Here's the PSX Board, the MIPS CPU and Geometry engine are separate chips on the board not even close on the same package.
Source: https://www.retroreversing.com/playStation-architecture
Alovon11
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Yeah, maybe that was called an MCM in the past, but that sure as heck isn't a modern MCM layout
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Think it’s possible to have the R shoulder button also house an IR sensor? And the dock house the receiver or maybe via USB add-on for more accurate motion controls from both joycons?
Or would that be too complex a design?
Or would that be too complex a design?
OP
OP
I don't think the R button is a good place to house the IR sensor since I think the fingers usually rest on the R button when holding the Joy-Cons, at least when attached to the Nintendo Switch, based on my personal experience, which I think could be very problematic for games that heavily rely on the IR sensor.
A couple of weeks ago, Geekerwan uploaded a Chinese review of the Snapdragon 8 Gen 1 on YouTube.
And almost a day ago, Geekerwan uploaded an English review of the Snapdragon 8 Gen 1 on YouTube.
So there's no new information for anyone who watched Geekerwan's Chinese review of the Snapdragon 8 Gen 1. Therefore, there's no benefit for Nintendo to use Armv9 CPUs, especially when Armv9 CPUs have a very small performance improvement over the most recent Armv8.2 CPUs at the cost of higher power consumption.
PedroNavajas
Boo
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Didn't Nintendi went on record that they were lossing money with the Wii U at $350?
Branduil
Bob-omb
I don't expect Nintendo to ever go back to IR aiming. While it could technically be more accurate than gyro, gyro is "good enough" in almost every case, and IR aiming introduces lots of potential complications, as in the infamous Skyward Sword demo.
Mr Swine
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I have a faint memory that they where selling it at a loss at $349
RennanNT
Bob-omb
IF they wanted IR, I imagine they could put the IR camera in the strap, or maybe replace it with a grip, depending on how much space they need.
Or, they could just make the player use the right joycon upside down, at the cost of losing some buttons (I wouldn't even be that surprised if the part of the tablet's screen sticking out of the dock was supposed to work as a sensor bar, but they abandoned the idea).
I don't think they will do that though. They're always striving for something new and unique, so they're unlikely to implement motion control in the same way they did for the Wii, specially when there are many companies trying their hands on motion control now (due to VR). Gyroscope is enough for them, unless they can bring motion controls to a new level and use that as a USP.
Save for a NSO controller, that is.
OP
OP
Nintendo officially made no mention which model is being sold at a loss. But the article from Gamesindustry.biz mentions that the Basic Set was being recalled and retailers were only selling the Deluxe Set. So Nintendo's likely selling the Deluxe Set at a loss.
I'm curious about how Dane compares to the upcoming Exynos SoC with the RDNA 2 GPU.
Angel Whispers
Follow me at @angelpagecdlmhq
No, they said that when bought with a game, the transaction was profitable. I would suggest that nobody bought a games console, let alone the Wii U, without any games to play on it, and before someone cracks a "Wii U had games?" joke, millions of people are playing the Wii U right now, in the form of enhanced ports.
Dekuman
Starman
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This seems like a pedantic argument
Yes people buy games to play on their consoles but there's still a material difference between Nintendo breaking even after 1 game is sold with the hardware and already being profitable without the need for a game
The difference could be $50 or more in BOM and goes back to the argument of whether Nintendo launches hardware at a loss or not, they clearly have
OP
OP
I don't know how reliable Chris1964 from the Install Base Forum is, but Chris1964 believes that Nintendo won't be launching the DLSS model* in holiday 2022 and potentially early 2023 since there's apparently no mention of new hardware in Nintendo's 2022 forecast.
Procheno
I exist sometimes
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Nintendo's 2022 forecast isn't out and won't be out until mid next year where they do their FY2022/23 meeting with investors. He's making an educated guess aka speculation like the rest of us. He's just saying this to set expectations based on what he believes. He doesn't know anything of the sort beyond what we know
He doesn't have inside info, he's making assumptions from the same info we are
Dekuman
Starman
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I don't think Nintendo can fudge their forecasts so I think if they have unannounced hardware it will get lumped under their Switch forecasts but that would still give away the game. Usually we know.about a hardware well in advance of their fiscal forecasts and with nothing much being announced
If we don't hear about new hardware before mixyear 2022 I'll start doubting a 2022 release as they would have to give hints by their annual meeting , and it may rule out a launch before end of FY 2023 as well. If it launches in 2023 it will be after March for FY 24, and we'll know about it in late 22 or early 23 and they will price that into their Switch forecasts that year
If we don't hear about new hardware before mixyear 2022 I'll start doubting a 2022 release as they would have to give hints by their annual meeting , and it may rule out a launch before end of FY 2023 as well. If it launches in 2023 it will be after March for FY 24, and we'll know about it in late 22 or early 23 and they will price that into their Switch forecasts that year
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