There are fairly specific preconditions for Nintendo's historical approach to BC that, as far as we can tell at this point, aren't met with Drake. It only really works when the system either includes processors with identical architecture to the original system, or something that can produce a very close facsimile thereof. Drake cannot provide that. There'd have to be a separate chip, which is highly unlikely.
That’s a good point. And we also need to remember that a few weeks back he replied to one of Polygon’s posts discussing devkits with something along the lines of “not going to confirm specifics but a lot of this generally sounds like what I’ve heard partners say” (definitely me paraphrasing here).
Yeah we just know now that the SoC is done and can be mass produced. Switch's successor could be in production right now, but we have no proof that it is, just proof that all intended components are ready for mass production.
This is true. 720p OLED panels were almost exactly like the GameBoy, a cheap panel that was mass manufactured but not really going anywhere.
Eh, I don’t actually buy this. It’s probably the end of doing so for graphics processing, but the whole existence of modern VR is “withered” technology when Palmer Lucky realized he could use a battery of low granularity cheap phone accelerometers to infer data ordinarily captured by more expensive equipment. The Joy-Con has an IR camera that is a mass produced sensor for motion activated lighting. The Ring-Con is as Old School a peripheral as it is possible to be, strapping injection molded plastic to existing controllers started was dead by the SNES before the Wii revived it, and the river of profit from RFA is enough to fund a couple Mario’s.
IIRC, Nate's comments on Polygon's posts were related to:
That’s rather soon. Too soon really.
Is it fair to assume that the chip has been taped out by this point?
Switch begun initial production at Foxconn in September and grew to 20k units a day by the beginning of October 2016. Holiday months have double the mass production potential over all other months, which is why a lot of new products release in Spring actually... I'm not suggesting that Switch's successor is already in mass production, I'm saying that we know that it CAN be, and if they want say 5M units ready for sale in May, instead of the 2.7M Switch had, they actually would need to start production right now to get 4-4.5M by the end of May.
lol
LOL yeah, maybe Nintendo is working with AMD, quick lets pick a SoC from them and put together a spec sheet for it.
According to MVG, that could be just the ARM T239 running Windows, for an entirely separate product, unrelated to Nintendo.What is "square one"? Does this mean nothing?
Unless MS is finally going to come out with another NVidia powered device akin to the Surface 1 and 2 or even Zune HD.
And run x86 windows on ARM. Not to mention Nvidia's blog post about the switch said NVN was custom made for Nintendo Switch.
Only assume they are working on it. As per @oldpuck from what they found, they had engineering samples in April 2022 (though I’d like to see the link to that), from engineering to tape out it can take a few quarters, 2-3.
You aren’t suggesting it but someone will take it as though that’s what you’re saying. The start of late September lines up for a very early March launch. They don’t need to start this now for what people speculate is a May release.
Only the switch.
Hmm, then I'd have a hard time expecting NVN2 compatibility to point to a non-Nintendo related device
The Switch had 2M units available at launch before covid, in a world that wasn't hit by a semiconductor shortage. They might not have to start production right now, but they may have to, we won't know either way with the current leaks, rumors and public info, but if production lines do start (which would line up with the OLED Splatoon model leaker saying that they were tightening security for these types of leaks) there will eventually be a leak about production, if Apple can't stop them, Nintendo doesn't stand a greater chance of doing so.
"The development encompassed 500 man-years of effort across every facet of creating a new gaming platform: algorithms, computer architecture, system design, system software, APIs, game engines and peripherals. They all had to be rethought and redesigned for Nintendo to deliver the best experience for gamers, whether they’re in the living room or on the move."
I think the problem is MVG coloring Spawnwave's report about the leak, specifically that T239 doesn't link to Nintendo, of course Jon did point out that Kopite7 linked T239 as the custom built chip for Nintendo before it was ever even known to exist, because Jon/Spawnwave does an incredible job IMO. However if you want updates on Leaks, Rumors, public information about the Switch "2", this thread on this forum is the primary source of information, and that is because of the incredible work of Dakhil first and foremost, as well as the tech heavy minded people in this thread that just enjoy discussing Nintendo used Technology.
To add, NX i.e. the Switch is specifically mentioned from that breach.
MS could be doing a new Windows 11 powered single screen device that has continuum support.
This is specifically why MVG's reasoning was so disappointing to hear. He de-links it from Switch and specifically mentions that the API is used in Windows, but he should know why it's misleading to say so.To add, NX i.e. the Switch is specifically mentioned from that breach.
To clarify - an NVN Windows "reference implementation" is like a proof-of-concept. It does not mean that NVN is specifically used to develop Windows software, but that a Windows implementation is available as a reference and can be used to develop NX software. (someone please add on / correct if I am missing something) .
In this instance it even says "Ampere-based GPUs are preferable [because] they are more compatible with the NX implementation". Implying NX is the target.
I initially assumed "NX" there was a reference to their Tegra NX line (like Orin NX) but in context that really makes no sense. The only reasonable conclusion as far as I can tell is that it refers to the Switch code name NX, yeah.To add, NX i.e. the Switch is specifically mentioned from that breach.
To clarify - an NVN Windows "reference implementation" is like a proof-of-concept. It does not mean that NVN is specifically used to develop Windows software, but that a Windows implementation is available as a reference and can be used to develop NX software. (someone please add on / correct if I am missing something) .
In this instance it even says "Ampere-based GPUs are preferable [because] they are more compatible with the NX implementation". Implying NX is the target.
occums razor and all that lol
This is a far better summary of what was said vs the bulletpoint version that omits context. We are viewing this from a vacuum and in that space one cannot make assumptions beyond what was shown -- which is strictly 8 CPU core per cluster spec. There is nothing else provided there.
Oh right, NVN is windows based for tegra devices.To add, NX i.e. the Switch is specifically mentioned from that breach.
To clarify - an NVN Windows "reference implementation" is like a proof-of-concept. It does not mean that NVN is specifically used to develop Windows software, but that a Windows implementation is available as a reference and can be used to develop NX software. (someone please add on / correct if I am missing something) .
In this instance it even says "Ampere-based GPUs are preferable [because] they are more compatible with the NX implementation". Implying NX is the target.
Supposedly elsewhere it indicates engineering samples in like April.
So based on all the available evidence and not just this Linux kernel update, you do believe it's likely that T239 is the chip Nintendo is planning to use, right?
"MVG said that Nvidia adding T239 support to the Linux kernel could mean that Nvidia's simply began to test T239 now and spending at least a year to fix bugs. And MVG mentioned that although T239 could be Nintendo related, T239 could also be related to a NDA project nobody knows about. MVG said that if there's a Nintendo email address in the Linux kernel, then he could say T239 could be related to Nintendo's new hardware. But since there's only a Nvidia email address in the Linux kernel, T239 isn't necessarily linked to the Nintendo Switch (I assume MVG meant Nintendo's new hardware)."
and that NVN2 only lists support for T239 as the only Ampere SoC with ray tracing as of the end of February this year... It's extremely unlikely that the people you've mentioned targeting 1H next year as a release date with Switch "2" exclusive software, could be using any other SoC in the final devkits that would have to exist around this time for software to be completed ~6 months from now.To add, NX i.e. the Switch is specifically mentioned from that breach.
To clarify - an NVN Windows "reference implementation" is like a proof-of-concept. It does not mean that NVN is specifically used to develop Windows software, but that a Windows implementation is available as a reference and can be used to develop NX software. (someone please add on / correct if I am missing something) .
In this instance it even says "Ampere-based GPUs are preferable [because] they are more compatible with the NX implementation". Implying NX is the target.
It's very likely but can't say it with 100% certainty -- even if I'd wager it is 99.99% for Nintendo.
I still think a May release is pretty absurd. It doesn't have any special significance. This device doesn't NEED to sell alongside Zelda, and never has. This isn't 2016 anymore, Nintendo's hardware sells well on its own. I'd go so far as to say Nintendo would probably want the device to be out ahead of time to get it in more hands before Zelda released.
That is true but it also means you are (purposefully?) ignoring the NVN2 leak from the Nvidia ransomware attack.
github.com
github.com
github.com
Yeah of course we can't say with certainly but I do believe everything is pointing to it being likely, as it seems you do too.
This I completely understand. Until we hear that T239 is literally inside Switch "2" anything could potentially happen, as unlikely as it is.
I don’t think historical conditions really apply this time, because things like hardware agnostic apis weren’t a thing in the past, and they never had a partner like Nvidia.
Which is why it was said when viewed in a vacuum, the info isn't anything substantial. I think I said vacuum three or four times to emphasize that point.
It does suggest final T239 hardware has been produced and thus ready for mass production
Yeah, primarily because to be put in the Linux Kernel in the way it was, the SoC does need to be finalized to well, be safely put in the Kernel primarily for discretionary reasons.
I think regardless or not these leaks indicate something, I think even in a vacuum, Nintendo needs to show new upgraded hardware lest they lose the momentum they built with the Switch.
I'd assume he knows but since it suggests but doesn't proof it, he mentioned it only proofed the 8 core CPU.
I would like to gently correct and say that isn't quite true in this case. This is a generic Tegra driver that supports both Orin and Drake. Linux development strongly encourages drivers to live in-tree for technical reasons that aren't worth going into. Which means, because these drivers are shared, the update either had to bubble up or Nvidia devs would have had to maintain a really ugly multiple-internal-branch-cross-merging scenario which is highly mistake prone.
Nate isn't suggesting that T239 isn't Switch "2", for some reason MVG is, but Nate isn't trying to say anything for or against, his own opinion is being muted to reflect confirmed reality, I appreciate that. MVG is mudding up reality and has been all week, it's not that he is lying, just misleading people with his comments about the API. Linux info in a vacuum is fine. Nate will eventually get to do his podcast with confirmed info, and we are all here for that, even hearing MVG's insights to it in that podcast. MVG is just telling a bunch of people who listen to these places for our insights, the wrong/misleading info... Of course NVN is for Nintendo, Nvidia said as much, the hack in NVN2 confirms it is targeting NX as a platform and it's only ever been used for Switch software.
This is why I use the word suggests, but given that we know that T239 was in testing before tape out in spring 2021 via brainchild, and we know that it has been used in linux since at least January, that the public addition here is very likely final hardware, especially because you spotted engineering samples from back in April.
