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StarTopic Future Nintendo Hardware & Technology Speculation & Discussion |ST| (Read the staff posts before commenting!)
- Thread starter Dakhil
- Start date
"Because Nintendo"....
Darknut85
#TeamRemake
“Because Pessimism“
ezidro3
Boo
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- he/him
Renders at a dynamic 900p (range of 720p to 900p), upscales to 1080p with FSR1 and CAS
Hosermess
Koopa
lol it's just a thought
and an acknowledgement that resources are not infinite, even for Nintendo.
And they just might think that a launch year full of new bangers is more attractive to consumers as a whole than prettied up games that people have already experienced.
Shoulder
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Aufhebung RPG
History is tragedy becoming comedy
What??xb3 actually has 1080p in docking mode?????I just feel very blurry.
oldpuck
Bob-omb
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FSR and DLSS are both kinds of technologies called temporal reconstruction. The resolution they give you is the same, but temporal upscalers don't always give you the same quality as "real" resolution. They can look blurry or have other problems.
DLSS usually looks closer to "real" resolution than FSR does. Especially when moving, or if there is a lot of particles
XB3 also uses a temporal reconstruction technique that Monolith designed themselves. That's why it looks blurrier than you expect.
darthdiablo
+5 Death Stare
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Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but DLSS is done on hardware (can only be done on nVidia RTX GPUs), whereas FSR can be done on modern GPUs (based on RDNA 1 and newer) in general. DLSS being done on hardware also, I believe, gives DLSS some advantages over FSR (quicker processing)
No actually. according to @ILikeFeet frame time is similar (barring concurrency actually working).
darthdiablo
+5 Death Stare
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Interesting - I would have thought software-based upscaling implementations have more (natural) overhead than a hardware-based one.
omniryu
Bob-omb
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And thus is where I am confident that
Most first party titles will be 4K. Some definitely in 60. The ones that goes dynamic 1080 to 720p are those open sprawling world. We are likely to get more pre switch remasters (pick your gaming system) then some of the ones made for Switch 2 the gameplay and overall demand are still based on Nintendo 64 or gamecube games.
What I mean is games like Animal Crossing that was design for the 64 isn't going to give you a super open world with sliding rocks and you're not likely to see the back of the buildings so no need to render that side. I can't really can describe it well but what I am saying is that it will be more common than not.
It's definitely not internally 1080p. It just has some pretty good custom reconstruction applied.
I don't think you are understanding what I'm saying. They can and very well might do both. I don't think anybody is saying or suggesting patches > new games nor that we think Nintendo would have that mindset. Just that they are perfectly capable of giving some games a patch like ToTK and making new games.lol it's just a thought
and an acknowledgement that resources are not infinite, even for Nintendo.
And they just might think that a launch year full of new bangers is more attractive to consumers as a whole than prettied up games that people have already experienced.
Aufhebung RPG
History is tragedy becoming comedy
You overestimate too much.
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Platinum to Nintendo asking for a Bayo 3 patch:
I don't doubt Nintendo would go out of their way to make Switch 2 patches for their internally developed games that aren't Wii U ports, but I also doubt they'd make a mandate that all 4K DLSS patches would be free if other companies wanted to charge.
Are we sure that DLSS could be implemented that fast in an average development pipeline? I was under the impression that since DLSS has to be accounted for at a foundational level that it would be require a little more intensive effort to incorporate it after the fact.
It's a moot point anyway, because a game made for Switch 1 probably woudnt actually need dlss.
they probably do all things equal, in theory. but with upscaling, you now have spare compute resources. and the idea that higher quality leads to longer computation time so DLSS could be leaving speed on the table.
but this is all theoretics since DLSS is a black box
MP!
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ok well I was assuming that the engine has the TAA workflow already that DLSS needs to connect toPlatinum to Nintendo asking for a Bayo 3 patch:
I don't doubt Nintendo would go out of their way to make Switch 2 patches for their internally developed games that aren't Wii U ports, but I also doubt they'd make a mandate that all 4K DLSS patches would be free if other companies wanted to charge.
Are we sure that DLSS could be implemented that fast in an average development pipeline? I was under the impression that since DLSS has to be accounted for at a foundational level that it would be require a little more intensive effort to incorporate it after the fact.
so benefit of the doubt there...
But still it's not a lot of dev resources... it's not a remaster... it's more like a patch
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There sure are a lot of recent PC games that still don't use it and haven't added it even though they're still getting updates, so reality seems to say it's at least a little more trouble than everyone finds it worth. Fallout 4 is getting an explicit next-gen patch and still isn't adding any fancy upscaling.
ItWasMeantToBe19
Manakete
I think very very few Switch games have a TAA step.
And if you add DLSS so your game can go from 900p/No AA to 1440p/Good AA, then maybe your LoDs and textures aren't looking great with the additional clarity so you should give those a boost, and if you're going this far, you may want to try to improve the framerate from 30 to 60, and you can get shorter load times too so you should really do that... and now you have a full remaster patch.
And if you add DLSS so your game can go from 900p/No AA to 1440p/Good AA, then maybe your LoDs and textures aren't looking great with the additional clarity so you should give those a boost, and if you're going this far, you may want to try to improve the framerate from 30 to 60, and you can get shorter load times too so you should really do that... and now you have a full remaster patch.
MP!
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the DLSS slippery slope... lol
or "If You Give a Game a Patch" he's gonna want a glass of textures
edit:
One thing I might add
not improving Lods and textures is probably fine... like mario galaxy in HD... or BOTW in 4K... they look... Fine.
and a framerate improvement is probably an easy win as well.
It's when you decide to rework models and textures is when the real work starts.
all of it needs to be QA tested regardless.
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KeijiKG
Moblin
You will pay 99.99$ for a draw distance patch in Mario Odyssey and be happy with it.
kasparov77
Moblin
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As dumb as it sounds, nintendo is the company that charges you like 20 bucks for a online system where YOU are the match's host (splatoon), 20 bucks for 1 year access to a collection of thirty year old games, online fighting games with no rollback netcode (smash, pokken) and they're also the company that pioneered the concept of paying a subscription service for temporary access to game dlcs.
Idk how people are finding it hard to see nintendo pulling a "want 4k? gotta pay" card.
Turrican3
Rattata
New Nintendo 3DS was an iterative upgrade of an existing platform though. I don't really think the next hardware will be something even remotely similar to that one nor, to phrase it better, it will be treated as such by Nintendo.
I love Nintendo. I really do. But this is the company that asked for a fee to be able to run already purchased VC content.
Of course I want to be so wrong about this, but it's not like there are no precedents. The more effort is needed to bring enhancements (or, heck, even simply allowing games to run exactly as they did on the original Switch), the more I see it likely for Nintendo to ask money for that.
I think this is a reasonably realistic assumption but again, maybe I'll be utterly wrong and they'll pull an Xbox... I won't complain, I just think any scenario that involves free, significantlly improving patches is very unlikely.
Aufhebung RPG
History is tragedy becoming comedy
If Nintendo isn't willing to follow the service-based gaming and all-platform wave, then it's quite possible that they'll increase their profit margins by adding fee-based programs from other sources, and this isn't just a "Because Nintendo" thing, it's a necessity in order to keep the buyout gaming environment going and keep themselves in business, so I think it would be a normal thing to see Nintendo introducing fee-basedUpgrades.
We shouldn't expect any concessions on the profit side from commercialized companies, you can like their R&D structure and entertainment spirit that keeps producing quality gameplay ideas, but to expect them to make concessions on the profit side is too "optimistic", which is also not realism.
We shouldn't expect any concessions on the profit side from commercialized companies, you can like their R&D structure and entertainment spirit that keeps producing quality gameplay ideas, but to expect them to make concessions on the profit side is too "optimistic", which is also not realism.
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oldpuck
Bob-omb
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- he/they
DLSS is accelerated by some extra hardware, and it does give it an advantage, but that's primarily in quality. Speed is weirder?
From a quality standpoint - you don't actually want the most accurate upscaler. Well, you would if it was 100% accurate, if it gave you the exact same thing as rendering at higher resolution. But there will always be errors. Which errors matter more to the human brain, unfortunately, are highly situational.
FSR and DLSS work the same way. They take pixels from previous frames, and combine them to add detail to new frames. They get extra information from the game engine to inform those decisions. However FSR uses a bunch of hand written rules for the combination process, DLSS uses AI.
FSR is pretty good at finding detail from the old frames and putting it in the new frame. Where it falls apart is making sure those new pixels add up to something that makes sense to the human eye.
DLSS uses AI. Since AI works statistically, instead of having a bunch of human-written rules, AI is better at capturing "okay, you know what, this is probably a situation where we should connect these pixels into a line." Or "we kept this pixel last time, this looks like a situation where we should keep it because blipping it in and out of existence will be more distracting, even if it's slightly inaccurate."
DLSS's AI uses tensor cores, FSR's human written code runs on the regular GPU. In general, these two things tend to run about the same, not for technical reasons but practical ones - both of them need to run on similar spec hardware, in a similar amount of frame time, and so they are optimized accordingly.
Where speed is different is in how the algorithm works. DLSS needs to make a decision for every pixel in the final image, regardless of how much data goes in. That's why 4k DLSS times are the same, no matter the quality mode. FSR makes a decision for every new pixel the upscaler is adding. That makes FSR speed depend on the quality mode more than the output resolution.
DLSS runs on hardware that can run concurrently with rendering, FSR doesn't. That let's DLSS offer a special parallel upscaling mode where you upscale one frame while rendering another. To my knowledge no game implements that on PC, but it's potentially very interesting for consoles
RennanNT
Bob-omb
omniryu
Bob-omb
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So you think a game like Animal Crossing wouldn't reach 4K? A next gen Animal Crossing.
It's about priorities. I personally think Nintendo would prioritize other things, while still looking sharp on a 4k tv.
Aufhebung RPG
History is tragedy becoming comedy
I still think 1440p is the prevailing resolution for switch2 first party games.
Giancarlo
Nintendo connoiseur
no, they prioritize in making Animal Crossing 6 run at 60fps
Aufhebung RPG
History is tragedy becoming comedy
I think it's an obvious fact that if you can upgrade to 4k via dlss, you're inevitably going to be running at a very low native rendering resolution on drake (540p-720p), and according to df tests, the frame times at 4k are out of the "reasonable range"."So all things considered, a 900p-1080p native rendering resolution upgraded to 1440p via dlss would be a very solid range.
omniryu
Bob-omb
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Oh don't get me wrong. I truly believe that. Let's say Bayonetta 4 comes and it can't reach 4K60. 1440p 60 or 1080p 60 is something I expect. but...
I get that. But don't you think that a next gen animal crossing wouldn't have enough if resources to do 4K60? I mean we aren't in hyrule.
I see it for their top demanding game for a performance mode.
But the next inevitable 2D Kirby game can probably do more than 1440p
Lancelot
Like Like
What is "4K" here? DLSS reconstructed from say, 1080p and so on? That could be perfectly possible if the 2050M tests from DF are inaccurate in relation to the finished hardware, otherwise even that's a hard ask. Switch 2 will be relying on it for pretty much everything, you should just say the internal and output resolutions instead.
While I don't expect things to be free, you have to admit that the scenario created for "knowing Nintendo" was ridiculous. And what's the point of these other mentionables without actually putting context into them? The online fighting games are peer-to-peer, meaning any sort of rollback via netcode has to happen on the systems themselves, and Switch isn't exactly in a good spot for handling such CPU-compounded situations, especially in a game like Smash that can have up to 8 players AND various interactable objects at the same time. And pioneering paying a subscription for temporary access to game DLC? Did you ignore what else that subscription tier includes? That added cost over the basic subscription for the expansion has more to do with paying the various 3rd-parties, like Sega and Microsoft. Heck, the $20 a year counts for online play, an ever-growing collection of retro games (not simply shuffled in and out), additional discounts via vouchers if you're a digital person, etc.
It's one thing to think Nintendo won't let upgrades go without a price, but it's another to assume they'd blow it out to such extremes. Do their competitors even go that far?
Soralink91
Moblin
Has their been any updated rumor on when Nintendo will be announcing this? I'm still hopeful we hear something before the May Fiscal Meeting, but for some reason I think that they will once again act like the console doesn't exist and just say that projections are based on current hardware. June is also a possibility, but they may want to focus on what the Switch has left for the year. I know we just have to be patient, but it feels like we are in the same place with speculation for the last two years.
there has been none
omniryu
Bob-omb
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You know what that's fair. I haven't really stated that. I was just assuming we all were talking about output. But I will keep that in mind about the internals.
OctoSplattack
Chain Chomp
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Not really. If it's releasing this fiscal year, then they'll admit the system exists either next week or at the May earnings call itself, but no one has a clue when an actual hardware reveal will happen.
omniryu
Bob-omb
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Next week?
VagrantValmar
Just a breadcrumb please Nintendo
Hmm the whole "adding upgrades patches" to NSO doesn't sound too wild. Buy it for 10 or just sub to NSO. Kinda like Mario Kart.
-access to 100+ retro games with online support for 20 bucks is not a bad deal tbh. I'm not gonna pretend like it's groundbreaking or anything but it's not too bad. SNES and Genesis have rollback too.
-no rollback sucks but the Switch doesn't have the computing power to support it in those games. Other games like Melty Blood do support it though.
-Temporary access to dlc is not so different from temporary access to Games. Either way you're just renting access to digital content. Doesn't sound any better or worse to me.
Anyway, I can still see them charging for it. Or not doing it at all. It's hard to predict but if I had to make a bet, I'd say they will only offer patches for a really small selection of games (Less than 10, maybe even less than 5) and charge like 5 bucks for it.
-If you are a host, if the game is p2p or server based, is dependent on the game and not the service. You think there are no p2p games on Xbox and PS? Guess who is the host when you play Bloodborne? Paying to play online is, imo, a scam on any system, I don't consider any of them a better online service.
-access to 100+ retro games with online support for 20 bucks is not a bad deal tbh. I'm not gonna pretend like it's groundbreaking or anything but it's not too bad. SNES and Genesis have rollback too.
-no rollback sucks but the Switch doesn't have the computing power to support it in those games. Other games like Melty Blood do support it though.
-Temporary access to dlc is not so different from temporary access to Games. Either way you're just renting access to digital content. Doesn't sound any better or worse to me.
Anyway, I can still see them charging for it. Or not doing it at all. It's hard to predict but if I had to make a bet, I'd say they will only offer patches for a really small selection of games (Less than 10, maybe even less than 5) and charge like 5 bucks for it.
Giancarlo
Nintendo connoiseur
Animal Crossing is not a franchise that demand a lot for a console, it will be easy to do 4K60 on Animal Crossing 6
Soralink91
Moblin
So if we don't get the acknowledgement in the next 2-3 weeks than we could be in for a long long wait?
VagrantValmar
Just a breadcrumb please Nintendo
They will also likely upgrade the visuals in which case 4k60 is way too much imo
omniryu
Bob-omb
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And that's what I mean by Nintendo's other franchises. The majority of them are not demanding. I think that's where some of us get mixed up.
- 2D Mario
- Warioware
- <insert your favorite> Sports
- Mario party
- Mario Kart
- Smash bros
- Paper Mario
So when I say, among the first part games. 4K (output with DLSS) will probably be more common than not. It is the monolith soft huge Xeno universe. The big 3D Zelda, Bayonetta 4: we are getting kinda old, and maybe Super Mario universe will be 1440p or less....maybe.
Raccoon
Fox Brigade
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hahaha it's 30fps with drops on switch
OctoSplattack
Chain Chomp
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They definitely aren't going to say anything on Golden Week, so the last week of the month is out. I think next week is a possibility if only because they have announced a new console outside an earnings release or trade show once or twice this century. But if I had to bet, it's probably going to be the earnings release.
Steve
Bob-omb
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Your actually right.
Somehow the game always felt like 60fps. Most likely the beautiful visual, that makes it unnoticeable
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