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StarTopic Future Nintendo Hardware & Technology Speculation & Discussion |ST| (Read the staff posts before commenting!)

We know Capcom had asked Nintendo to increase the RAM available on the Switch for RE engine development. Since this position is in Osaka, could it be related to Capcom's work on Switch 2 development?

 
Does Nintendo have an Osaka office? Seems strange that they'd be working on something sensitive out there
We know Capcom had asked Nintendo to increase the RAM available on the Switch for RE engine development. Since this position is in Osaka, could it be related to Capcom's work on Switch 2 development?

Nintendo Sales Co., Ltd has a branch located in Kita-ku, Osaka.
 
We know Capcom had asked Nintendo to increase the RAM available on the Switch for RE engine development. Since this position is in Osaka, could it be related to Capcom's work on Switch 2 development?

Probably not. The site says
西中島南方駅から徒歩5分、新大阪駅から徒歩10分
(5 min. walk from Nishinakajima-Minamikata Station, 10 min. walk from Shin-Osaka Station)
which is exactly what the location of eSOL Co.,Ltd. fits according to Google Map.



This company's exFAT file system "PrFILE 2 exFAT" was used for the Nintendo Switch Lite.

https://www.esol.co.jp/successstory/case_111.html
 
Popped in to see what was new. We will have to see if the pokemon leaker was legit or mixing in his own fake rumor.

Xbox Series S is 74w during active game play, uses TSMC 7nm, which TSMC 5nm can reduce power consumption by 40% (from the CPU/GPU). Switch's successor could draw up to 25 watts in a similar form factor, Switch launch models can draw over 18 watts, so we are talking about 1/3rd the power draw for Switch 2 at most vs XBSS. Because TSMC 4N should be a little better than TSMC 5nm, I think the estimation of 25w is ok for a realistic number, but it's certainly the high end.

ARM A78 at say 2.4GHz would draw ~4 watts across all 8 cores and offer as much as 80% of the XBSS' CPU performance. The memory bandwidth is very light weight power consumption wise, but I do think 128bit is the realistic option here, it could go as high as 136GB/s, which for the efficiency of the architecture and the performance it will give, is enough that extra bandwidth probably is wasted power consumption, this type of memory would be cheap on power consumption.

Drake's GPU will likely draw no more than 12 watts, this wattage is enough to push the GPU to 1.4GHz or 4.3TFLOPs, though I still believe we are looking at 3.456TFLOPs via a 1.125GHz clock, which seems realistic with power consumption that TSMC 4N could offer Drake.

EMMC can do 400MB/s, UFS 1 can do 800MB/s single lane, I could easily see it doing 1GB/s on the storage for just a watt or so, Fan at most 2watts...

Docked, a system like this would draw no more than Erista does, and would offer a GPU on par with XBSS, but with RT support and DLSS for higher resolution via AI upscaling. A CPU that shouldn't be a bottleneck, and enough memory bandwidth to not get in the way of performance. It's certainly possible for Nintendo to come to market with a next generation hybrid console that performs on par with XBSS, and because of the size of Drake, I do think it won't be drastically behind it.
I hope you're right.
 
Worth noting that the job listing seems to contain language about dealing with "post-release defects", if machine translation is to be trusted.
defect handling after release (cause identification, correction, re-release)
handling of post-release defects (identifying causes, correction, and re-release)
Doesn't seem something pertaining to the die. Rather to general hardware (Like Joy-Con defects)
 
I'm not entirely sure this holds up. If you ignore DLSS entirely, yes, this follows, but if you include DLSS, it gets trickier.

If docked mode is targeting DLSS 4k Performance Mode as a base, then that means rendering a 1080p image, and applying a 4x upscale. GPU rendering scales pretty linearly, so with half that level of performance, that means rendering a base 720p image. The question is, "how much DLSS can we get in handheld?"

The problem is figuring out how DLSS scales in this case, and there just isn't a lot of useful data on low end devices. You can look at the available data and get two wildly different estimations. I know because @Paul_Subsonic and I both did it. I came out with DLSS running pretty okay in 4k docked mode, but falling apart in handheld, Paul got really decent numbers with a 1080p upscale in handheld mode, but the 4k upscale in docked got real dicey.

In retrospect, I think we were both wrong in a sort of obvious way, and maybe I should go back and look at the numbers a third time now that (I think) I've figured out what's going on with them. But it's not clear at all how DLSS will behave between the two modes.

Still, my thing is, we're still fundamentally dealing with 1080p as the core docked target. Without DLSS, 1080p is going to nicely integer scale on 4k screen. But the half-res 720p handheld mode will not nicely integer scale onto a 720p screen. I'm not assuming the majority of the [redacted] library is going to use DLSS, anymore than I expect the majority of the Switch library to use variable rate shading. I don't want DLSS to be a requirement for PS4-era games to achieve parity in handheld mode, when even pessimistic estimates put docked mode well ahead of the PS4.

Which is why I said if handheld mode really does go head-to-head with PS4 in raw raster perf, then bring that 1080p screen on

I don't think DLSS changes things in any meaningful way. I agree that we don't have good information about the absolute performance of DLSS on a GPU this small, but what I'm talking about here is relative performance. That is, if the system is capable of using DLSS to at least 1440p in docked mode, then it should be capable of using DLSS to 1080p in portable mode. To know that, we need to answer two questions. Firstly, is DLSS performance proportional to resolution? (eg if 4K has 4x more pixels than 1080p, will DLSS with a 4K output take 4x as long to run?). Secondly, does DLSS performance on an individual GPU scale proportionally with clock speed?

For the first question the performance data Nvidia published in the DLSS programming guide should be plenty. I wrote about this before here, and I won't repost the whole thing, but will just quote this sentence:

If the concern is that T239's GPU, being smaller than those tested by Nvidia, would have some extra overhead that we're not taking into account, the evidence suggests the opposite; that the smaller the GPU is, the closer it is to providing DLSS performance that's proportional to resolution.

For the second question, I was hoping to provide some good data of my own. I've been playing around with Nvidia's RTXDI sample application recently, and it occurred to me that it provides a variety of performance metrics, including the time taken for the DLSS pass if it's used. Unfortunately, since the last time I played around with my GPU clock speed, Nvidia has decided to remove support for consumer GPUs from most features in nvidia-smi, meaning I don't have an easy way to limit clock speeds. I tried doing the same thing with Afterburner, but it's quite frustrating (and crashed my PC once during testing), so I only got four data points. These are on a desktop RTX 3070 with a 1080p image scaled from 540p:

Code:
MHz    DLSS ms
1920   0.50
1470   0.68
1350   0.71
1100   0.81

One quick thing to note is that the performance here at the peak clock of 1.92GHz is a bit worse than Nvidia states for the RTX 3070 at 1080p in the performance guide (0.50ms vs 0.41ms). The RTXDI sample application is particularly intensive, which may contribute to this, or the number it's reporting may include some overhead left out of the numbers in the performance guide.

Keeping in mind some noise in the data, between Afterburner not wanting to hold a stable clock and me reading a varying number off a screen, it's pretty linear. This shouldn't be that surprising, but I was actually expecting a less-than-linear drop off from the peak frequency of 1.92GHz, with it potentially being bandwidth-limited rather than compute-limited at that point, but this would suggest it's not. I had hoped to do some proper bandwidth testing on it too, but again Nvidia's decision to hobble nvidia-smi makes that challenging.

In any case, evidence would suggest that DLSS performance is relative to both resolution and clock speed, and those should both hold up on smaller GPUs. The question of whether a GPU the size of T239's has the absolute performance necessary to hit 1440p or better is docked mode is a different question, which is why I put statement 1 in at the start. If the system isn't designed around 4K (or resolutions greater than 1080p) in docked mode, then I don't expect a 1080p panel for portable play. Which, honestly I wouldn't have a huge problem with, but the evidence seems to suggest Nintendo are pushing for 4K output with this, and it would be reasonable to expect they're planning on using DLSS to do so.

Also, while I understand where you're coming from in terms of PS4 ports, I don't think that's going to factor into Nintendo's thinking in any meaningful way. This device, like the Switch, will be designed primarily around the needs and/or desires of Nintendo's internal development teams. They will of course take third party feedback into account, and will be happy to accommodate third parties where possible, but "this system should display low-effort PS4 ports in portable mode in the most faithful way possible" will be about a thousand rungs down on the priority list compared to "this system should make the new Mario and Zelda look as good as possible". I don't think every game on the new system will use DLSS, but I fully expect Nintendo's major first party titles to, and I feel like that will be (and probably should be) Nintendo's main concern.

Typically not, but there's not much precedent to work with, and one counter example.

Chances are reasonably high that the actual hardware announcement would be standalone and come before the Direct (or some weirder scenarios, depending on how they want to message it), but it could go either way.

I've been saying for a while that I expect something like the original Switch reveal trailer for the hardware announcement; a video a few minutes long that quickly and succinctly conveys the concept and appeal of the system. However, thinking about it more, a video like that for [redacted] would be basically identical to the original video. Swap in some nicer graphics in the gameplay segments and maybe Elden Ring instead of Skyrim, but the original video wasn't really about the games or the graphics, it was about the general concept of the Switch as a hybrid system which could be used for docked or portable play.

If [redacted] is a similar hybrid system, then a video like that, focussed on how you use it, isn't going to do them much good because it will just look like the original Switch. Nintendo need to emphasise the differences between the new system and the original Switch, and it seems like one of the major differences is "more powerful/prettier graphics", which would warrant a bit more explanation. Perhaps something like a mini Direct where Koizumi explains the improvements, interspersed with short "lifestyle" segments like the original Switch video.

I'd still expect something maybe 3-4 minutes long. Full length directs don't get anywhere near the number of views of shorter videos and trailers, so having a short initial reveal is important to hit as many people's eyeballs as possible.
 
Personally I feel there has been plenty of smoke since the beginning of this year. It's just that what I interpret as smoke and what someone else interprets it as are two different things.

Some will think there's been absolutely nothing based on the leaks, rumours and/or sources that they trust and then some will think there's been plenty based on the same.

I feel there's been enough smoke that I can see the fire off in the distance. A lot of pieces have been falling together I feel in the last two months and at this point I'm just waiting for Nintendo to confirm and stop playing coy or outright deny and just come out with the future roadmap already.
Yes i feel you completely it just people have been jerked around so much when it comes to this pending device that it is safer to be pessimistic than optimistic lol.

For me personally the following past events count as smoke to me, the NVN2 from the Nvidia leak and the report that dubbed the Nintendo Switch Redacted because those are both hard evidence. Would it be nice to have something more substantial like a Square Enix/Ubisoft slip of the tongue or factory leak of the body ala Switch Lite sure but i honestly would much prefer Nintendo catches us completely off guard when announcing it.
 
Oh hell yeag.

that-smell-a-kind-of-smelly-smell.gif
 
Doesn't seem something pertaining to the die. Rather to general hardware (Like Joy-Con defects)
Not hardware related at all. eSOL makes operating systems and operating system components for embedded use. Nintendo has worked with them in the past. This is a 3 month contract, with an option to renew in 3 month blocks, so it's short term work by our standards.

Most likely: https://www.esol.com/embedded/product/middleware.html It's one of these systems that Nintendo is paying for integration into their custom OS.

Also likely: https://www.esol.com/embedded/services/engineering_professional_services.html Nintendo is just paying for a semi-local embedded OS specialist to come in and do some additional lifting on Horizon.

Less likely but not totally inconceivable: https://www.esol.com/embedded/product/ebinder_edevs_overview.html eSOL provides a hypervisor OS and a custom IDE. It's unlikely, but eSOL could be assisting with devkits or SDK development, and that "support" could be for developers who get kits.

Or: some other thing entirely.
 
So basically we have a 3 month renewable contract job related to OS support, including post-release support for a new unannounced game platform for a console maker in Kyoto.

It's obviously for Nintendo. It doesn't really say anything conclusive about launch timing, but putting out a 3 month contract job for a product that (supposedly) isn't coming for like, 18 months, and specifically mentioning post-release support as a duty/responsibility seems extremely odd.
 
I don't think DLSS changes things in any meaningful way. I agree that we don't have good information about the absolute performance of DLSS on a GPU this small, but what I'm talking about here is relative performance. That is, if the system is capable of using DLSS to at least 1440p in docked mode, then it should be capable of using DLSS to 1080p in portable mode. To know that, we need to answer two questions. Firstly, is DLSS performance proportional to resolution? (eg if 4K has 4x more pixels than 1080p, will DLSS with a 4K output take 4x as long to run?). Secondly, does DLSS performance on an individual GPU scale proportionally with clock speed?

For the first question the performance data Nvidia published in the DLSS programming guide should be plenty. I wrote about this before here, and I won't repost the whole thing, but will just quote this sentence:



For the second question, I was hoping to provide some good data of my own. I've been playing around with Nvidia's RTXDI sample application recently, and it occurred to me that it provides a variety of performance metrics, including the time taken for the DLSS pass if it's used. Unfortunately, since the last time I played around with my GPU clock speed, Nvidia has decided to remove support for consumer GPUs from most features in nvidia-smi, meaning I don't have an easy way to limit clock speeds. I tried doing the same thing with Afterburner, but it's quite frustrating (and crashed my PC once during testing), so I only got four data points. These are on a desktop RTX 3070 with a 1080p image scaled from 540p:

Code:
MHz    DLSS ms
1920   0.50
1470   0.68
1350   0.71
1100   0.81

One quick thing to note is that the performance here at the peak clock of 1.92GHz is a bit worse than Nvidia states for the RTX 3070 at 1080p in the performance guide (0.50ms vs 0.41ms). The RTXDI sample application is particularly intensive, which may contribute to this, or the number it's reporting may include some overhead left out of the numbers in the performance guide.

Keeping in mind some noise in the data, between Afterburner not wanting to hold a stable clock and me reading a varying number off a screen, it's pretty linear. This shouldn't be that surprising, but I was actually expecting a less-than-linear drop off from the peak frequency of 1.92GHz, with it potentially being bandwidth-limited rather than compute-limited at that point, but this would suggest it's not. I had hoped to do some proper bandwidth testing on it too, but again Nvidia's decision to hobble nvidia-smi makes that challenging.

In any case, evidence would suggest that DLSS performance is relative to both resolution and clock speed, and those should both hold up on smaller GPUs. The question of whether a GPU the size of T239's has the absolute performance necessary to hit 1440p or better is docked mode is a different question, which is why I put statement 1 in at the start. If the system isn't designed around 4K (or resolutions greater than 1080p) in docked mode, then I don't expect a 1080p panel for portable play. Which, honestly I wouldn't have a huge problem with, but the evidence seems to suggest Nintendo are pushing for 4K output with this, and it would be reasonable to expect they're planning on using DLSS to do so.

Also, while I understand where you're coming from in terms of PS4 ports, I don't think that's going to factor into Nintendo's thinking in any meaningful way. This device, like the Switch, will be designed primarily around the needs and/or desires of Nintendo's internal development teams. They will of course take third party feedback into account, and will be happy to accommodate third parties where possible, but "this system should display low-effort PS4 ports in portable mode in the most faithful way possible" will be about a thousand rungs down on the priority list compared to "this system should make the new Mario and Zelda look as good as possible". I don't think every game on the new system will use DLSS, but I fully expect Nintendo's major first party titles to, and I feel like that will be (and probably should be) Nintendo's main concern.



I've been saying for a while that I expect something like the original Switch reveal trailer for the hardware announcement; a video a few minutes long that quickly and succinctly conveys the concept and appeal of the system. However, thinking about it more, a video like that for [redacted] would be basically identical to the original video. Swap in some nicer graphics in the gameplay segments and maybe Elden Ring instead of Skyrim, but the original video wasn't really about the games or the graphics, it was about the general concept of the Switch as a hybrid system which could be used for docked or portable play.

If [redacted] is a similar hybrid system, then a video like that, focussed on how you use it, isn't going to do them much good because it will just look like the original Switch. Nintendo need to emphasise the differences between the new system and the original Switch, and it seems like one of the major differences is "more powerful/prettier graphics", which would warrant a bit more explanation. Perhaps something like a mini Direct where Koizumi explains the improvements, interspersed with short "lifestyle" segments like the original Switch video.

I'd still expect something maybe 3-4 minutes long. Full length directs don't get anywhere near the number of views of shorter videos and trailers, so having a short initial reveal is important to hit as many people's eyeballs as possible.
Reminds me of the Switch Lite reveal. Short video, concept and limitations explained, short trailer with lifestyle skew.
 
So basically we have a 3 month renewable contract job related to OS support, including post-release support for a new unannounced game platform for a console maker in Kyoto.

It's obviously for Nintendo. It doesn't really say anything conclusive about launch timing, but putting out a 3 month contract job for a product that (supposedly) isn't coming for like, 18 months, and specifically mentioning post-release support as a duty/responsibility seems extremely odd.
Autumn release baybeeeeeee
 
Not hardware related at all. eSOL makes operating systems and operating system components for embedded use. Nintendo has worked with them in the past. This is a 3 month contract, with an option to renew in 3 month blocks, so it's short term work by our standards.

Most likely: https://www.esol.com/embedded/product/middleware.html It's one of these systems that Nintendo is paying for integration into their custom OS.

Also likely: https://www.esol.com/embedded/services/engineering_professional_services.html Nintendo is just paying for a semi-local embedded OS specialist to come in and do some additional lifting on Horizon.

Less likely but not totally inconceivable: https://www.esol.com/embedded/product/ebinder_edevs_overview.html eSOL provides a hypervisor OS and a custom IDE. It's unlikely, but eSOL could be assisting with devkits or SDK development, and that "support" could be for developers who get kits.

Or: some other thing entirely.

From the translation of the job description (eg producing design documents), it sounds like a professional services gig. A straightforward sale of a middleware component probably wouldn't require contract staff, unless it's being customised for Nintendo, at which point it's basically professional services again.
 
So basically we have a 3 month renewable contract job related to OS support, including post-release support for a new unannounced game platform for a console maker in Kyoto.

It's obviously for Nintendo. It doesn't really say anything conclusive about launch timing, but putting out a 3 month contract job for a product that (supposedly) isn't coming for like, 18 months, and specifically mentioning post-release support as a duty/responsibility seems extremely odd.

I think the fact that it's a renewable contract is worth noting. It's possible that's because they expect the work could finish in as little as three months, but it's also possible that they expect the work to take much longer than that, but this company just operates on a 3 month rolling contract as standard for contract staff. I don't know what's typical for this kind of contract work in Japan.
 
Not hardware related at all. eSOL makes operating systems and operating system components for embedded use. Nintendo has worked with them in the past. This is a 3 month contract, with an option to renew in 3 month blocks, so it's short term work by our standards.

Most likely: https://www.esol.com/embedded/product/middleware.html It's one of these systems that Nintendo is paying for integration into their custom OS.

Also likely: https://www.esol.com/embedded/services/engineering_professional_services.html Nintendo is just paying for a semi-local embedded OS specialist to come in and do some additional lifting on Horizon.

Less likely but not totally inconceivable: https://www.esol.com/embedded/product/ebinder_edevs_overview.html eSOL provides a hypervisor OS and a custom IDE. It's unlikely, but eSOL could be assisting with devkits or SDK development, and that "support" could be for developers who get kits.

Or: some other thing entirely.
Do we know who provided the Switch exFAT driver? Could be related.
 
I heard really interesting rumors about Samsung and Nintendo. It's possible that there are going to buy OLED screens from Samsung, but Exynos 2400 looks very interesting and we know that new SoC must custom. Nvidia does not have anything that could be able to power a console without a serious redesign. Their Orin Nano 8 GB is built for different things and it does not even have video decoder. And it's ridiculously expensive. So is it possible that Samsung is going to make new SoC for Nintendo? Powered by RDNA2?
 
I heard really interesting rumors about Samsung and Nintendo. It's possible that there are going to buy OLED screens from Samsung, but Exynos 2400 looks very interesting and we know that new SoC must custom. Nvidia does not have anything that could be able to power a console without a serious redesign. Their Orin Nano 8 GB is built for different things and it does not even have video decoder. And it's ridiculously expensive. So is it possible that Samsung is going to make new SoC for Nintendo? Powered by RDNA2?
It won't be an Exynos, but the screen could be a Samsung rigid OLED.
 
I heard really interesting rumors about Samsung and Nintendo. It's possible that there are going to buy OLED screens from Samsung, but Exynos 2400 looks very interesting and we know that new SoC must custom. Nvidia does not have anything that could be able to power a console without a serious redesign. Their Orin Nano 8 GB is built for different things and it does not even have video decoder. And it's ridiculously expensive. So is it possible that Samsung is going to make new SoC for Nintendo? Powered by RDNA2?
The SoC will be the Nvidia T239 (seemingly codenamed Drake). There's yet to be any evidence that chip was made for anything aside from Nintendo.
 
I heard really interesting rumors about Samsung and Nintendo. It's possible that there are going to buy OLED screens from Samsung, but Exynos 2400 looks very interesting and we know that new SoC must custom. Nvidia does not have anything that could be able to power a console without a serious redesign. Their Orin Nano 8 GB is built for different things and it does not even have video decoder. And it's ridiculously expensive. So is it possible that Samsung is going to make new SoC for Nintendo? Powered by RDNA2?
They already buy oled screen from Samsung, what are these rumors you are referring to?

As for soc, it's going to be Nvidia T239.
 
Probably not much to glean from that job listing tbh. I mean just based on what it is, one would assume it means hardware is on the way soonish, relatively speaking, but with it being a rolling contract and referencing that it will run long term, who knows what the actual time frame is.

Maybe the takeaway is more that the lid is starting to lift a bit, with the way Nintendo(indirectly) and new hardware is being referenced here.
 
Same company.

Hmm, yeah, that seems to suggest they're responsible for the exFAT driver and at least part of the Joy-Con firmware. Imagine they'd have similar responsibilities this time.
 
There is another job listing by eSol. They are hiring cloud engineers for a next generation game console.
 
There is another job listing by eSol. They are hiring cloud engineers for a next generation game console.
Can't wait to see all the "NINTENDO SWITCH 2 TO BE CLOUD CONSOLE???" youtube videos
 
Is the first time non-Nintendo job postings for Nintendo hardware specifically have been identified and speculated over? Usually third-party involvement speculation comes from patents, sales orders, etc. The closest would be LinkedIn stuff, but that was all for SoC development in particular, not Nintendo's hardware per se.
 
Please read this staff post before posting.

Furthermore, according to this follow-up post, all off-topic chat will be moderated.
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