StarTopic Future Nintendo Hardware & Technology Speculation & Discussion |ST| (Read the staff posts before commenting!)

[BreakAtmo]

I mean, good point I suppose but keep in mind pathtracing is unlikely to benefit those two games nearly as much simply because their lightning model was professionally baked from back and forth... And we've surpassed those two games already in more ways than one, so I'm sure the base fidelity to use will be PS5-ish. I'd argue Nintendo already got that Sony-esque game and it's called Xenoblade (storydriven full of epic setpieces and dark themes) but I'm with you that I want another, preferably cartoony photorealistic.

While I do partially want path-tracing for the visual beauty, I do think its main importance is to development times and the amount of work that needs to go into games. So much work and time goes into baked lighting, and IMO that needs to stop as soon as possible.

Pikmin 4 was definitely trying to push the photorealistic visuals as much as possible on Switch hardware, so Pikmin 5 could be one of the games to try to make "Sony-esque" photorealistic visuals on the Switch 2?
I also wouldn't be surprised if the Zelda-team tries something totally different (which is something they regularly do) and leaves the BOTW/TOTK cartoony artstyle and attempts to push the visuals so that they're on par with games like Elden Ring.

I haven't actually played Pikmin 4 yet (or any of the Xenoblade games as I'm waiting for Switch 2 for those), but aren't the main characters extremely cartoony? Though the environmental visuals did seem to look excellent from what I recall, so yeah, I wouldn't be at all shocked to see the next game have some major photorealism in that area. Pikmin 5? More like Pikmin UE5 amirite

I would like to see the next Zelda keep the cartoony style. TOTK with RTGI and other improvements sounds awesome, but they may very well go the route you suggest. I'm interested to see if they can implement freeform destruction.

 

[ILikeFeet]

I would say Mario Kart (other than F-Zero) is probably the least likely game to get any form of RT as

1. Any form on RT on the Switch will need to be extremely short range to not have to generate a large BVH, Mario Kart's fast pace would make short range reflections etc pointless.

2. Mario Kart must run at 60 FPS

3. A lot of the benefits of RT are about consistency, but this is much less necessary in a game where you're never really casually exploring

1. this isn't a problem unless you have a lot of polygons in the foreground. range is irrelevant, the number of objects and their fidelity in the BVH is important
2. you can have RT and 60fps
3. without knowing what they're building, we can't know what's the best technique to use

I haven't actually played Pikmin 4 yet (or any of the Xenoblade games as I'm waiting for Switch 2 for those), but aren't the main characters extremely cartoony? Though the environmental visuals did seem to look excellent from what I recall, so yeah, I wouldn't be at all shocked to see the next game have some major photorealism in that area. Pikmin 5? More like Pikmin UE5 amirite

I would like to see the next Zelda keep the cartoony style. TOTK with RTGI and other improvements sounds awesome, but they may very well go the route you suggest. I'm interested to see if they can implement freeform destruction.

the environment design of these games veer towards realistic expression of objects and materials. that said, ray tracing doesn't have anything to do with the cartoony/realism scale. it serves both equally

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

Can you literally have RT and 60 FPS on an under clocked 3050? Sure, it’s possible, but you’re going to be going to a level of blurriness and lack of detail that will probably look like shit for a franchise that needs good reflections and dynamic light less than basically any franchise I can think of.

 

[SoldierDelta]

I haven't actually played Pikmin 4 yet (or any of the Xenoblade games as I'm waiting for Switch 2 for those), but aren't the main characters extremely cartoony? Though the environmental visuals did seem to look excellent from what I recall, so yeah, I wouldn't be at all shocked to see the next game have some major photorealism in that area. Pikmin 5? More like Pikmin UE5 amirite

Xenoblade and Pikmin have generally more gritty/realistic environments to contrast with the main character designs. Xenoblade is a bit more held back due to it's format as a series, but the general idea is still sound. What we can expect from future Xenoblade titles is probably going to be a mix of FF16 and Tales of Arise-styled graphics. Pikmin will likely be the insane graphical showcase though, similar to how Pikmin 4 was so stunning this year.

I would like to see the next Zelda keep the cartoony style. TOTK with RTGI and other improvements sounds awesome, but they may very well go the route you suggest. I'm interested to see if they can implement freeform destruction.

Zelda will likely keep it's style, but I'm always down for experimentation. I still think a combat-focused Zelda game would be amazing and a slightly more gritty look (not photo-realistic, but sort of the blurring of styles like TP) for the series would benefit the tone of the gameplay.

 

[BreakAtmo]

the environment design of these games veer towards realistic expression of objects and materials. that said, ray tracing doesn't have anything to do with the cartoony/realism scale. it serves both equally

Oh, I know. I was just talking about how I'd be interested to see Nintendo try a game with a graphical style similar to what Sony does, with or without RT. Though honestly, I would not be shocked to see Nintendo go with RT in all of their franchises to some degree. Their console will have the most efficient RT acceleration, so they may want to make it a central feature.

That said, I do think there are a certain few games where you wouldn't want RT - like, would it be capable of helping something like Dragon Ball FighterZ? I remember hearing that the lights are very precisely placed in ways that are meant to mimic the look of the anime and have nothing to do with realism.

 

[Lancelot]

I haven't actually played Pikmin 4 yet (or any of the Xenoblade games as I'm waiting for Switch 2 for those), but aren't the main characters extremely cartoony? Though the environmental visuals did seem to look excellent from what I recall, so yeah, I wouldn't be at all shocked to see the next game have some major photorealism in that area. Pikmin 5? More like Pikmin UE5 amirite

There's more to Sony games than just the artstyle, it's the thing. Even if this hypothetical game had the most photorealistic artstyle in business, if the story is non-existent it will never (or should) qualify as "esque". Xenoblade is about the closest they've gotten to attempting a legitimate story-driven game with all it means, even if they were forced to make it all cartoony due to console limitations (its last game got 10 hours of cutscenes, I played it). Now, if Nintendo EPD wants to give it a shot, I'll be their guess.

 

[Ghostsonplanets]

ARM A78C is really powerful, maybe not like Zen2 in consoles but still

A78 is really powerful. But CPU on Series/PS5 will still be 2x of Switch 2 CPU. Ports will need to carefully manage CPU load.

 

[BreakAtmo]

Xenoblade and Pikmin have generally more gritty/realistic environments to contrast with the main character designs. Xenoblade is a bit more held back due to it's format as a series, but the general idea is still sound. What we can expect from future Xenoblade titles is probably going to be a mix of FF16 and Tales of Arise-styled graphics. Pikmin will likely be the insane graphical showcase though, similar to how Pikmin 4 was so stunning this year.

Zelda will likely keep it's style, but I'm always down for experimentation. I still think a combat-focused Zelda game would be amazing and a slightly more gritty look (not photo-realistic, but sort of the blurring of styles like TP) for the series would benefit the tone of the gameplay.

In that case I'll be very interested to see what a Xenoblade 4 might look like. Going full FFXVI with it would be very cool.

There's more to Sony games than just the artstyle, it's the thing. Even if this hypothetical game had the most photorealistic artstyle in business, if the story is non-existent it will never (or should) qualify as "esque". Xenoblade is about the closest they've gotten to attempting a legitimate story-driven game with all it means, even if they were forced to make it all cartoony due to console limitations (it's got 10 hours of cutscenes, that's as cinematic as it gets). Now, if Nintendo EPD wants to give it a shot, I'll be their guess.

Oh, I assumed it would also have a full epic narrative as well. I'm mainly just interested to see how Nintendo would make such a thing since it's rather outside their wheelhouse - though I might not be saying that if I'd played Xenoblade.

 

[ILikeFeet]

That said, I do think there are a certain few games where you wouldn't want RT - like, would it be capable of helping something like Dragon Ball FighterZ? I remember hearing that the lights are very precisely placed in ways that are meant to mimic the look of the anime and have nothing to do with realism.

yes, absolutely. ray tracing is already used in 3D anime. I always find the artist placed lights argument funny because that's what's done in real life. and ray tracing is a simulation of real life

Can you literally have RT and 60 FPS on an under clocked 3050? Sure, it’s possible, but you’re going to be going to a level of blurriness and lack of detail that will probably look like shit for a franchise that needs good reflections and dynamic light less than basically any franchise I can think of.

or it can look good, which is probably the case. RTGI scales very well. and reflections do too when you don't need precision

or don't do GI and Reflections and settle for shadows and/or AO. ray tracing doesn't have to be everything or nothing

 

[BreakAtmo]

yes, absolutely. ray tracing is already used in 3D anime. I always find the artist placed lights argument funny because that's what's done in real life. and ray tracing is a simulation of real life

That's my point though - something like DBFZ has to explicitly alter the placement of the lights for each individual frame based on what looks dramatic, cool or "anime-esque", somewhat similar to drawing individual stylised sprites in order to create that "2D effect in 3D". RT is indeed simulating real lighting, and at least from what I know DBFZ doesn't try for that at all - maybe it would work fine though. I would be interested to see it.

Also, do you have anything I could read about ray-tracing in 3D anime? I'd be interested in that, too.

 

[lemonfresh]

I wonder if prime 4 will even have ray tracing or they have been building it on switch 1 for so long it wont have switch 2 features other than maybe running a little it better on it

 

[Hosermess]

I know it’s unrelated to the topic, but the foldable flagship product could be an iPhone, seeing as how that’s been rumored for years. I doubt it’d enter mass production, since, at this date, Apple could be testing the hell out of it. Other than that, maybe it’s a foldable Samsung tablet? Or even a portable Switch competitor.

—————

That aside, what we could maaaybe tale away from this leak is that manufacturing leaks will be imminent

This is not a leak. This is somebody taking a single sentence (that is entirely hypothetical) in an article and claiming that this "suggests" it's for Switch 2. Which is fucking crazy.

But I know just the guy who sent that DM

 

[Mirev]

Going again with a second screen is a really bad idea.

 

[Gerald]

A78 is really powerful. But CPU on Series/PS5 will still be 2x of Switch 2 CPU. Ports will need to carefully manage CPU load.

i think they will clock A78C around 2GHz

 

[Linkstrikesback]

There's more to Sony games than just the artstyle, it's the thing. Even if this hypothetical game had the most photorealistic artstyle in business, if the story is non-existent it will never (or should) qualify as "esque". Xenoblade is about the closest they've gotten to attempting a legitimate story-driven game with all it means, even if they were forced to make it all cartoony due to console limitations (its last game got 10 hours of cutscenes, I played it). Now, if Nintendo EPD wants to give it a shot, I'll be their guess.

They aren't forced to make xenoblade "cartoony". I dunno why anyone would entertain that line of thought when TLOU was a PS3 game.

They made it with that style because they wanted to, and because realism is vastly overrated when it comes to making gameplay elements work. It's why you get yellow paint all over Resi4Remake or just how many games have all had to adapt a Eagle Vision/Detective Mode/Witcher Senses/Whatever, because realistic graphics don't actually mesh well with gameplay elements.

 

[Ghostsonplanets]

i think they will clock A78C around 2GHz

I would like too, but based on mobile phone power testing data, 2GHz is already were A78 power consumption increases a lot. Powering 6 - 7 active A78 cores at 2GHz would be no joke at Switch like CPU power budget*, even on 4N.

Unless Nintendo increase the portable platform power budget to >10W or introduce dynamic profiles where the developer can choose to favor CPU clocks and load in detriment to GPU clocks and load, within a fixed power budget (Not too dissimilar to what PS5 does).

I think a more realistic clock for the CPU is around 1.4 GHz - 1.6GHz. Maybe 1.8GHz if we're lucky**.

* For comparison, based on a 14LPP A57 power curve and testing done by Anandtech and hacked Switches, Switch 4 A57 Core Complex uses around 2 - 3W. That's a painfully low and very restricted power budget for a CPU. And even more for 6/7 active CPUs.

** Assuming it's fabbed on TSMC 4N. If it's fabbed on a worse node, like Samsung 8N, clocks will need to go way down.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

While Nintendo would obviously prefer to use all 12 RT cores for something instead of a waste of space, I’m very much not sure what the BVH construction cost is for the ability to even use the RT cores for BVH traversal.

BVH construction seems completely hardware unaccelerated (as of now, this will obviously change with future chips) and seems just like brute force right now so if BVH construction for a reasonable level of RT eats up like 0.3 teraflops, it will be hard to imagine Nintendo’s graphically intensive games using it much.

Maybe there’s a scenario where RT shadows in a limited range use all 12 RT cores while taking up less of the main GPU and CPU via BVH construction and ray denoising than non RT shadows and Nintendo goes with it… But I don’t know.

 

[ILikeFeet]

That's my point though - something like DBFZ has to explicitly alter the placement of the lights for each individual frame based on what looks dramatic, cool or "anime-esque", somewhat similar to drawing individual stylised sprites in order to create that "2D effect in 3D". RT is indeed simulating real lighting, and at least from what I know DBFZ doesn't try for that at all - maybe it would work fine though. I would be interested to see it.

Also, do you have anything I could read about ray-tracing in 3D anime? I'd be interested in that, too.

yea, it definitely can work. there's nothing about ray tracing that works against the effect of anime. while RT can simulate light, it can pretty much break all the rules as well

I'm trying to find the tech talk Unity hosted where they talked about getting ray traced shadows in an anime feature

until then, here's a hobbyist made example



FAKE EDIT: found it

For shadow generation, Unity's shadow map (depth shadow) technique is used, but for detailed shadow generation for characters, shadow generation using a DirectX Raytracing (DXR)-based real-time ray tracing function is used. Mr. Ao recalled that he had no complaints about the quality of shadow generation in Unity.

［Unite 2019］実は3DCGアニメ作品だった「Hello World」。この作品をゲームエンジンUnityで再現することはできるのか？

　現在，絶賛劇場公開中の「HelloWorld」は「今住んでいる2027年の京都の町は，仮想世界である」と十年後の自分から宣告される主人公の少年が，ヒロインに襲い来る悲劇を回避するために奔走する，とい…

jp.gamesindustry.biz

 

[CalmMind]

Different market share but still interesting

The thing about bleeding edge tech is that it dulls faster than it sells. What's interesting is the ram used and the amount. If Lenovo and many other brands have it, Nintendo is surely higher on that list given their economy of scale.

 

[mjayer]

would it be capable of helping something like Dragon Ball FighterZ? I remember hearing that the lights are very precisely placed in ways that are meant to mimic the look of the anime and have nothing to do with realism.

While considering what artstyle experimentations Nintendo could go with for the next Zelda, I began to think of a Studio Ghibli kind of look... but then my brain jumped to how awkward mimicking 2d animation with 3d models can get and then I had an epiphany!

You could use the tensor cores and AI to examine each frame and pop out an animated frame. Something like this only better because they will have more control over the input and the training of the AI that generates the output.



And another example:


Honestly it's quite exciting what the possibilities are. Forget DLSS... Nintendo we know is already working on their own versions of it, perhaps it's art-style driven?

 

[Concernt]

While considering what artstyle experimentations Nintendo could go with for the next Zelda, I began to think of a Studio Ghibli kind of look... but then my brain jumped to how awkward mimicking 2d animation with 3d models can get and then I had an epiphany!

You could use the tensor cores and AI to examine each frame and pop out an animated frame. Something like this only better because they will have more control over the input and the training of the AI that generates the output.



And another example:


Honestly it's quite exciting what the possibilities are. Forget DLSS... Nintendo we know is already working on their own versions of it, perhaps it's art-style driven?

That corridor digital video is... Not a fantastic example, for a bunch of reasons.

 

[ILikeFeet]

While Nintendo would obviously prefer to use all 12 RT cores for something instead of a waste of space, I’m very much not sure what the BVH construction cost is for the ability to even use the RT cores for BVH traversal.

BVH construction seems completely hardware unaccelerated (as of now, this will obviously change with future chips) and seems just like brute force right now so if BVH construction for a reasonable level of RT eats up like 0.3 teraflops, it will be hard to imagine Nintendo’s graphically intensive games using it much.

Maybe there’s a scenario where RT shadows in a limited range use all 12 RT cores while taking up less of the main GPU and CPU via BVH construction and ray denoising than non RT shadows and Nintendo goes with it… But I don’t know.

BVH construction costs are based on the size of the BVH you're trying to create. if you have a small structure with few triangles, the costs are minimized. with fewer triangles per object in the BVH, you can extend your tracing distance, so you don't have short range RT

 

[rêverie]

woke up this morning with the feeling that something substantial had happened while i was asleep.

i am... sad!

 

[CalmMind]

Is this user reliable? I am not aware that the company FineMTec is related to the development of Nintendo Switch and Nintendo [REDACTED].

A broken clock is right twice a day...

 

[lattjeful]

I know nobody (unfortunately) reads the OP but can we, like, update it or have a threadmark or something of who is reliable and who isn't? I feel like so much of the discussion the past few months is sharing anything with "Switch 2" in it, going "Hey is this user reliable?" and it's a guy we established wasn't reliable a year ago.

If not, then here are the basics for any newbies:

-Connor (@OreXda) is not reliable. Dude posts anything handed to him. We've tested this ourselves.

-kopite7kimi is fairly reliable, but is hit or miss on things outside of consumer-grade hardware, especially anything pertaining to Tegra. He's good for graphics cards, but take anything he's said about the Switch 2 (i.e. 8 nm*) with a huge grain of salt.

-necrolipe and NateDrake are the two big ones for this thread. What they've been hearing and telling us lines up with all of the theory crafting and speculation we've done. They've also been able to corroborate and add on to info we've gotten from outlets like Eurogamer. Obviously grain of salt, as we don't know if what they say will actually pan out (see: Switch OLED), but hey it's at least fun to entertain and they aren't giving us anything out of the realm of possibility. Please do not bug them if you want to know anything. They'll share info when they have it.

-Doctre81 flies the banner on YouTube. Lots of sleuthing around on LinkedIn. We've been able to connect some dots/back our shit up because of some of the work he's done. Doesn't always hit the mark, much like us in this thread, but he does some cool shit.

-Avoid Nintendo YouTubers like the plague

*a marketing nomenclature used by all foundry companies

 

[SoldierDelta]

yes, absolutely. ray tracing is already used in 3D anime. I always find the artist placed lights argument funny because that's what's done in real life. and ray tracing is a simulation of real life

Worth bringing up an actual history lesson here. RT isn't a new technology. Not in the sense of being pedantic in saying "The original concept of Ray-Tracing came from some High Renaissance painter from the 15th century", but the concept when used to apply to digital media has existed for a fair bit. To my knowledge, the first feature animated film to use the technology (albeit not in the same way as applied to Gaming because that's a whole other can of worms) was Monster House in 2006. Other studios latched onto the tech as time goes on, but those films can render scenes over hours, meanwhile games have to render it in a fraction of a second. Very odd and very tough to do.

I don't know how stuff like Ray-tracing (and ray reconstruction) would work with Nintendo's weirder artstyles, but I'd like to see the result.

 

[ILikeFeet]

the youtube channel I posted, had a much more recent example of 3D anime with ray tracing (shadows and global illumination)

 

[CalmMind]

I know nobody (unfortunately) reads the OP but can we, like, update it or have a threadmark or something of who is reliable and who isn't? I feel like so much of the discussion the past few months is sharing anything with "Switch 2" in it, going "Hey is this user reliable?" and it's a guy we established wasn't reliable a year ago.

If not, then here are the basics for any newbies:

-Connor (@OreXda) is not reliable. Dude posts anything handed to him. We've tested this ourselves.

-kopite7kimi is fairly reliable, but is hit or miss on things outside of consumer-grade hardware, especially anything pertaining to Tegra. He's good for graphics cards, but take anything he's said about the Switch 2 (i.e. 8 nm*) with a huge grain of salt.

-necrolipe and NateDrake are the two big ones for this thread. What they've been hearing and telling us lines up with all of the theory crafting and speculation we've done. They've also been able to corroborate and add on to info we've gotten from outlets like Eurogamer. Obviously grain of salt, as we don't know if what they say will actually pan out (see: Switch OLED), but hey it's at least fun to entertain and they aren't giving us anything out of the realm of possibility. Please do not bug them if you want to know anything. They'll share info when they have it.

-Doctre81 flies the banner on YouTube. Lots of sleuthing around on LinkedIn. We've been able to connect some dots/back our shit up because of some of the work he's done. Doesn't always hit the mark, much like us in this thread, but he does some cool shit.

-Avoid Nintendo YouTubers like the plague

*a marketing nomenclature used by all foundry companies

Isn't Nate a YouTuber?

 

[lattjeful]

Isn't Nate a YouTuber?

Yeah, but I'd hesitate to call him a Nintendo YouTuber. Plus, he's clearly got some contacts in the industry. I'm mostly speaking about guys like NintendoPrime who just spew stuff out for clicks with no other rhyme or reason.

 

[redmutineer75]

To my knowledge, the first feature animated film to use the technology (albeit not in the same way as applied to Gaming because that's a whole other can of worms) was Monster House in 2006.

It feels odd that the first fully path traced animated film was neither Pixar nor DreamWorks, but apparently Pixar didn't have a fully path traced film until 2013 with Monsters University.

 

[lemonfresh]

I know nobody (unfortunately) reads the OP but can we, like, update it or have a threadmark or something of who is reliable and who isn't? I feel like so much of the discussion the past few months is sharing anything with "Switch 2" in it, going "Hey is this user reliable?" and it's a guy we established wasn't reliable a year ago.

If not, then here are the basics for any newbies:

-Connor (@OreXda) is not reliable. Dude posts anything handed to him. We've tested this ourselves.

-kopite7kimi is fairly reliable, but is hit or miss on things outside of consumer-grade hardware, especially anything pertaining to Tegra. He's good for graphics cards, but take anything he's said about the Switch 2 (i.e. 8 nm*) with a huge grain of salt.

-necrolipe and NateDrake are the two big ones for this thread. What they've been hearing and telling us lines up with all of the theory crafting and speculation we've done. They've also been able to corroborate and add on to info we've gotten from outlets like Eurogamer. Obviously grain of salt, as we don't know if what they say will actually pan out (see: Switch OLED), but hey it's at least fun to entertain and they aren't giving us anything out of the realm of possibility. Please do not bug them if you want to know anything. They'll share info when they have it.

-Doctre81 flies the banner on YouTube. Lots of sleuthing around on LinkedIn. We've been able to connect some dots/back our shit up because of some of the work he's done. Doesn't always hit the mark, much like us in this thread, but he does some cool shit.

-Avoid Nintendo YouTubers like the plague

*a marketing nomenclature used by all foundry companies

going to add some more unreliable people
Nintendo Prime
AndresRestart
ReviewTechUSA
RedTechGaming
SwitchForce
SpawnWave

They just spout unverified rumors most of the time with clickbait thumbnails

Also cant forget for the reliable section natethehate the best youtuber imo for switch 2/nintendo stuff

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

BVH construction costs are based on the size of the BVH you're trying to create. if you have a small structure with few triangles, the costs are minimized. with fewer triangles per object in the BVH, you can extend your tracing distance, so you don't have short range RT

Yes, I understand this, but why would Nintendo pursue

1. Much less environmental detail

Or

2. Even more massive amounts of pop in

Just to do RT that still won’t be that great due to the low teraflops, low tensor core count, and low RT core count of their chip? Would this really look better?

 

[SoldierDelta]

It feels odd that the first fully path traced animated film was neither Pixar nor DreamWorks, but apparently Pixar didn't have a fully path traced film until 2013 with Monsters University.

I had to do a bit of research before I made my comments (boy howdy, a person who isn't an expert in ray-tracing talking about ray-tracing, needs to do research. I've heard that one before). I genuinely thought for the longest time that Cars (2006) was the first film to use Ray-tracing but... no, not the case at all.

In fact, to my knowledge, Sony also beat Pixar and Dreamworks. Cloudy with a Chance of Meatballs released with RT. Genuinely very weird. I also can't find the first instance of Dreamworks using the tech either, but most of their films from the 2000s (up to Monsters vs. Aliens in 2009) looks very flat lighting-wise, so I can't imagine they got there early either.

 

[majimazio]

I think Tales of Arise's graphics are thanks to the use of UE4 and the huge budget invested in it for a Japanese game.
To bring Xenoblade's graphics up to the same level, Nintendo would need to invest a huge budget.

With Switch 2, Monolith Soft should either revamp their engine or move to UE5.

 

[ILikeFeet]

Yes, I understand this, but why would Nintendo pursue

1. Much less environmental detail

Or

2. Even more massive amounts of pop in

Just to do RT that still won’t be that great due to the low teraflops, low tensor core count, and low RT core count of their chip? Would this really look better?

1. this is just the ray traced detail. the reflections, for example, are of a lower lod. the objects in the field are as high fidelity as you want them to be. see this image for example. the shell casing is high poly, but the reflection of the casing is low poly
   
   
2. you don't need massive amounts of pop-in. the ray traced effect can be supported with far distance raster effects

and yes, it would look better. it would also be simpler to implement and iterate upon, which is why devs are moving to RT

I think Tales of Arise's graphics are thanks to the use of UE4 and the huge budget invested in it for a Japanese game.
To bring Xenoblade's graphics up to the same level, Nintendo would need to invest a huge budget.

With Switch 2, Monolith Soft should either revamp their engine or move to UE5.

I'd argue Arise isn't significantly more impressive than Xenoblade 3. it's definitely not an engine problem, but a horsepower problem. Xenoblade on Drake will easily match or exceed Arise.

 

[redmutineer75]

I had to do a bit of research before I made my comments (boy howdy, a person who isn't an expert in ray-tracing talking about ray-tracing, needs to do research. I've heard that one before). I genuinely thought for the longest time that Cars (2006) was the first film to use Ray-tracing but... no, not the case at all.

In fact, to my knowledge, Sony also beat Pixar and Dreamworks. Cloudy with a Chance of Meatballs released with RT. Genuinely very weird. I also can't find the first instance of Dreamworks using the tech either, but most of their films from the 2000s (up to Monsters vs. Aliens in 2009) looks very flat lighting-wise, so I can't imagine they got there early either.

Pixar had been utilizing ray tracing since 1998 with A Bug's Life, but it was only for a few scenes. Monsters University was the first to use ray tracing for literally all of its lighting and shading.

 

[Yavga]

A see some speculation about a dual screen, could this actually be the direction Nintendo takes for the NX2, or are there some sleuths who can already dismiss this?

 

[SoldierDelta]

Pixar had been utilizing ray tracing since 1998 with A Bug's Life, but it was only for a few scenes. Monsters University was the first to use ray tracing for literally all of its lighting and shading.

Ah, thanks for that tidbit. I swear Pixar did use RT prior to MU but I guess it was only in smaller chunks before using it for the entire film. Monster's University kinda feels like was a tech demo for the lighting at points in retrospect so maybe that's when they wanted to show it off to the fullest? Idk, still a cool thing to know.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

1. this is just the ray traced detail. the reflections, for example, are of a lower lod. the objects in the field are as high fidelity as you want them to be. see this image for example. the shell casing is high poly, but the reflection of the casing is low poly
   
   
2. you don't need massive amounts of pop-in. the ray traced effect can be supported with far distance raster effects

and yes, it would look better. it would also be simpler to implement and iterate upon, which is why devs are moving to RT


I'd argue Arise isn't significantly more impressive than Xenoblade 3. it's definitely not an engine problem, but a horsepower problem. Xenoblade on Drake will easily match or exceed Arise.

This technique you’re describing seems to constantly lead to shadow and reflection pop-in from what I have seen so it would lead to even more pop in without some extremely careful optimization to the point where I don’t even know how much work you’re saving.

 

[Ghostsonplanets]

Can we just agree that we don't and can't know how T239 features will be used by developers, much less Nintendo? All we can do is general approximations and guesstimations, but developers are always trying to maximize, research and develop novel ways to utilize the hardware in ways that can surprise us or it was thought to be impossible before?

What we know is that the device has Tensor Cores and RT Cores and has Tensor/DLSS and RT support baked into the API. The software and hardware stack are there and it will be utilized. That's it. The ways they're going to be used and the trade-offs are up to the developers.

yea, it definitely can work. there's nothing about ray tracing that works against the effect of anime. while RT can simulate light, it can pretty much break all the rules as well

I'm trying to find the tech talk Unity hosted where they talked about getting ray traced shadows in an anime feature

until then, here's a hobbyist made example



FAKE EDIT: found it

［Unite 2019］実は3DCGアニメ作品だった「Hello World」。この作品をゲームエンジンUnityで再現することはできるのか？

　現在，絶賛劇場公開中の「HelloWorld」は「今住んでいる2027年の京都の町は，仮想世界である」と十年後の自分から宣告される主人公の少年が，ヒロインに襲い来る悲劇を回避するために奔走する，とい…

jp.gamesindustry.biz

While considering what artstyle experimentations Nintendo could go with for the next Zelda, I began to think of a Studio Ghibli kind of look... but then my brain jumped to how awkward mimicking 2d animation with 3d models can get and then I had an epiphany!

You could use the tensor cores and AI to examine each frame and pop out an animated frame. Something like this only better because they will have more control over the input and the training of the AI that generates the output.



And another example:


Honestly it's quite exciting what the possibilities are. Forget DLSS... Nintendo we know is already working on their own versions of it, perhaps it's art-style driven?

the youtube channel I posted, had a much more recent example of 3D anime with ray tracing (shadows and global illumination)

God gracious, these examples are insane. I'm really interested to see how having Tensor Cores and RT Cores will change developers workflows and tools. AI will be a game changer to development tools in a few years. Very nascent R&D yet.

I think Tales of Arise's graphics are thanks to the use of UE4 and the huge budget invested in it for a Japanese game.
To bring Xenoblade's graphics up to the same level, Nintendo would need to invest a huge budget.

With Switch 2, Monolith Soft should either revamp their engine or move to UE5.

UE4 indeed is part of the reasons why ToA and others Japanese games got such a boost in rendering quality and features. That being said, Monolith internal engine is up to par (in the features Monolith needs) with others engine. It's a fully standard modern engine and Monolith is at the forefront of R&D at integrating novel techniques and featureset to their engine. Heck, they even introduced a shipping lightweight Temporal Upsampling solution, not too dissimilar to Unreal Temporal Super Resolution, AMD FSR 2 or DLSS, running on current Switch. There's no need to worry, they will update their engine to the next-generation, as they always do.

A see some speculation about a dual screen, could this actually be the direction Nintendo takes for the NX2, or are there some sleuths who can already dismiss this?

Disregard. It's baseless speculation. I won't delve too much, but dual screen would cost more, bring problems and wouldn't add any advantage at all.

 

[lemonfresh]

A see some speculation about a dual screen, could this actually be the direction Nintendo takes for the NX2, or are there some sleuths who can already dismiss this?

Nintendo 4DS

 

[eye0h]

going to add some more unreliable people
Nintendo Prime
AndresRestart
ReviewTechUSA
RedTechGaming
SwitchForce
SpawnWave

They just spout unverified rumors most of the time with clickbait thumbnails

Also cant forget for the reliable section natethehate the best youtuber imo for switch 2/nintendo stuff

Aero should be added to that list

 

[Goodtwin]

i think they will clock A78C around 2GHz

I think so too. The A57 cores were always considered a bit power hungry. The A72 series cores were considerably more power efficient, I believe roughly 20% even on the same node and we saw further power savings and performances gains with the A78 cores. The A57 CPU cores on an Erista Switch pull about 2 watts. The difference in power draw going from 20nm to 4N is significant. I do not know the numbers, but between the power efficiencies gains within the design advancements along side the fact that 4N is over five times as dense as 20nm, I think powering eight A78C cores at 1.8-2Ghz is possible with a 2 watt power budget.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

I just want to note that Starfield (a game that will be played mostly on NVIDIA GPUs) doesn't even support RTGI as an option on PC. Starfield is basically the ideal game for RTGI (Not that fast paced, intended for 30 FPS, open-world game with tons of dynamic and varied lighting opportunities) and had a pre-marketing budget of $200m and was always intended for next-gen hardware.

BGS' programmers are not elite or anything, but they're working with massively better hardware and didn't put it in.

(And if we're talking about Game Freak in particular... They are less good at programming than BGS to put it lightly)

 

[ILikeFeet]

This technique you’re describing seems to constantly lead to shadow and reflection pop-in from what I have seen so it would lead to even more pop in without some extremely careful optimization to the point where I don’t even know how much work you’re saving.

do you have any examples of said pop in?

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

do you have any examples of said pop in?

 

[Giancarlo]

While I do partially want path-tracing for the visual beauty, I do think its main importance is to development times and the amount of work that needs to go into games. So much work and time goes into baked lighting, and IMO that needs to stop as soon as possible.



I haven't actually played Pikmin 4 yet (or any of the Xenoblade games as I'm waiting for Switch 2 for those), but aren't the main characters extremely cartoony? Though the environmental visuals did seem to look excellent from what I recall, so yeah, I wouldn't be at all shocked to see the next game have some major photorealism in that area. Pikmin 5? More like Pikmin UE5 amirite

I would like to see the next Zelda keep the cartoony style. TOTK with RTGI and other improvements sounds awesome, but they may very well go the route you suggest. I'm interested to see if they can implement freeform destruction.

the characters, enemies are extremely cartoony, is the level design that is very photorealistic(visually in this case)

 

[ILikeFeet]

that changes the length of the ray before termination. lower lod isn't the problem here, the devs artificially shortened the distance of the ray. that's why I said tracing against a lower lod allows them to extend the tracing distance because you're not increasing the number of triangles in the trees by much

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

Elden Ring RT also has RT shadow pop-in though I couldn't find a direct video as no one really does videos comparing shadow pop-in across different game modes.

Elden Ring's RT upgrade is not the feature we wanted

Tom Morgan examines the performance impact and visual upgrade offered by the new, unexpected RT mode added to Elden Rin…

www.eurogamer.net

Again, there are some limitations here. For one, RTAO and RT shadows are missing in cutscenes on console, such as the introduction to the Margit boss, but return for gameplay afterwards. Shadow pop-in is also more noticeable with RT enabled. The limits of RTAO are different to SSAO, and Elden Ring appears to use a BVH structure that calculates RT shadows at different points in the map. We noticed shadows under barrels 'switch on' abruptly at a certain proximity to the player, whereas they're factored into the scene earlier using regular SSAO in quality mode. So it's something to bear in mind, but Elden Ring does look better overall for having RT enabled.

 

[Pokemaniac]

As opposed to using last for last gen and last for the gen before, numbers are definitely better.

Better != Good

The Wikipedia generation numbers are overall harmful to the discourse.