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StarTopic Future Nintendo Hardware & Technology Speculation & Discussion |ST| (Read the staff posts before commenting!)

Regarding this situation, it does not take a lot of work to update the game.

It was probably not included at the time Sora was added into the game because they were unsure whether an amiibo would even be made. Fighter Pass 3 is not happening, it makes no sense for them to continue working on ultimate 5 years after launch, and 2 years after finishing DLC. It would be in the best interest of Namco and Nintendo if they put their focus towards a brand new entry.
Once again, I don't disagree. A new game is something Nintendo most definitely wants to happen because Ultimate is the 3rd best-selling Switch game. Maybe those old 2021 rumors were for Smash 6 and not new content for Ultimate. I don't know. I think Smash is positioned to get something at least revealed next year.

Also, it does take a lot of work to even put out very minor patches; it's not as simple as hitting a button, and then bam, you have Amiibo support. I'm not saying it's the most challenging thing in the world, but I think them doing it now rather than when we got the December 2021 patch for the game, where they added Amiibo support for Min-Min through Kazuya, is a sign they're working on something.
 
Once again, I don't disagree. A new game is something Nintendo most definitely wants to happen because Ultimate is the 3rd best-selling Switch game. Maybe those old 2021 rumors were for Smash 6 and not new content for Ultimate. I don't know. I think Smash is positioned to get something at least revealed next year.

Also, it does take a lot of work to even put out very minor patches; it's not as simple as hitting a button, and then bam, you have Amiibo support. I'm not saying it's the most challenging thing in the world, but I think them doing it now rather than when we got the December 2021 patch for the game, where they added Amiibo support for Min-Min through Kazuya, is a sign they're working on something.
Again, Nintendo was likely working out the legal details with Disney & didn’t want to include the data until they were absolutely sure the Amiibo deal could be secured.

You could argue that Nintendo put in Monster Hunter with a playable franchise classification in the files even though rumors indicate they tried & failed to get the Hunter, but Capcom & Disney are two entirely different monsters.
 
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Are we sure that the agreements work like this? I've always imagined that to include a third-party character, Nintendo simply pays a one-time fee to the current publisher (of course, the price varies based on the character's popularity and DLC sales estimates). In this case, all Nintendo would need to do for a remaster is pay an additional one-time fee to the various third parties.

Do we have any official information we can rely on to understand this? 🤔
There is a bundle for Fighters Pass 1 and Ultimate on the eShop currently, it should be a one-time fee, and not continuous. We don't have an official statement, but the fact they already had a bundle means it would be strange if the payment was continuous.
 
Also, it does take a lot of work to even put out very minor patches; it's not as simple as hitting a button, and then bam, you have Amiibo support. I'm not saying it's the most challenging thing in the world, but I think them doing it now rather than when we got the December 2021 patch for the game, where they added Amiibo support for Min-Min through Kazuya, is a sign they're working on something.
It does not take a lot of work. I am not saying its a simple button press, but if it has to be done, it can be done fairly easily, without needing to recall that many members of staff. I believe it more so indicates that Disney and Nintendo had not yet agreed on whether an Amiibo would be made. They didn't purposefully leave out Sora Amiibo data in 2021 because they thought "doesn't matter, we can just patch it in later when we start work on Smash Bros 6".
 
My hope for smash is:

  • Ultimate deluxe for launch window
  • Smash 3D with a kid Icarus/arms gameplay, small roster, directed by sakurai. 2026-2027.


We have Mario 2D and 3D, Zelda 2D and 3D, Metroid 2D and 3D… why not smash? 👀
 
Again, Nintendo was likely working out the legal details with Disney & didn’t want to include the data until they were absolutely sure the Amiibo deal could be secured.

You could argue that Nintendo put in Monster Hunter with a playable franchise classification even though rumored indicate they tried & failed to get the Hunter, but Capcom & Disney are two entirely different monsters.
We can agree to disagree because you could very well be right. I just have a lot of doubts on that because it took them over half a decade to do so, which is the longest time period for any Amiibo deal, and I just don't think it makes sense for Disney to be iffy on selling a toy of their main "gaming" character being in the biggest video game crossover. I don't see why that would be where they draw the line and force Nintendo to drag out deals for another five years. Once again, they've worked with multiple other toy manufactors to get toys of Sora created. I don't see why they would refuse Amiibo.
 
There is a bundle for Fighters Pass 1 and Ultimate on the eShop currently, it should be a one-time fee, and not continuous. We don't have an official statement, but the fact they already had a bundle means it would be strange if the payment was continuous.
Unless I’m mistaken, that eShop bundle is basically the two separate items combined (price & all). I doubt it means anything one way or the other. And even if it did, the fact that FP2 isn’t included should indicate that Sora complicates matters.
 
Okay:
• Nintendo Switch has sold approximately 130 million units

• Super Smash Bros. Ultimate has sold about 30 million units

That means that about 23% of Switcj owners also own SSBU. Almost one in four Switch owners have the game. That’s a lot.

Nintendo could incentivise Switch owners to double dip or finally get the game by making a 4k version with a new Fighter Pass, but again, I only see this happening further in the succesor’s lifetime
 
The two situations aren’t the same…
  • Mario Kart 8 was new to 90% of people due to the Wii U’s failure, a system whose games can’t be played on the Switch natively.
  • Smash Ultimate is the 3rd best-selling first-party Switch game, a system which itself is one of the biggest consoles ever. Not to mention that the Switch 2 will almost certainly be backwards compatible with Switch 1 games.

I doubt it’s that simple, especially with Disney involved.

It's still a port whether you like it or not.

Why do we get re-release of games with all DLC's included but not Smash, think about it. Also they kinda reached their limit of what they can do with Smash with the latest one. A upscaled version including all the DLCs for the successor makes sense
 
Also they kinda reached their limit of what they can do with Smash with the latest one.
They can come up with a new twist, reinvent the formula. The smash franchise will not rely on ports just because they can't think of anything new.
 
We can agree to disagree because you could very well be right. I just have a lot of doubts on that because it took them over half a decade to do so, which is the longest time period for any Amiibo deal, and I just don't think it makes sense for Disney to be iffy on selling a toy of their main "gaming" character being in the biggest video game crossover. I don't see why that would be where they draw the line and force Nintendo to drag out deals for another five years. Once again, they've worked with multiple other toy manufactors to get toys of Sora created. I don't see why they would refuse Amiibo.

Hey Para are a lot of Smash amiibos are planned for the November restock ?
 
It's still a port whether you like it or not.

Why do we get re-release of games with all DLC's included but not Smash, think about it. Also they kinda reached their limit of what they can do with Smash with the latest one. A upscaled version including all the DLCs for the successor makes sense
Because Smash includes third-party characters, which heavily complicates matters. Doing a port wouldn’t be much different from a new game from a legal standpoint since…
…including even one third-party DLC character would require a new revenue split for EVERYONE (especially for companies who joined via DLC). At that point, you’d might as well do a new game.
And since Smash Ultimate sold like hotcakes on a system that itself sold like hotcakes, that diminishes the potential audience you could sell a deluxe port to. This becomes even worse when you’ll likely still be able to play Ultimate on the Switch 2 via BC.
 
As the years went on, Smash Ultimate's issues have become more apparent. There is plenty of room to expand and innovate with it's roster and gameplay, so the idea that Ultimate is peak Smash is solely based on the size of the roster and not much else.
 
Ultimate Deluxe being a mandatory purchase for 4K, rather than having a 4K patch ready for Ultimate at launch, would be a little ridiculous.

"Ultimate" is in the name. "Ultimate Deluxe" is ridiculous, thus the jocular "Ultra Deluxe".
 
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As the years went on, Smash Ultimate's issues have become more apparent. There is plenty of room to expand and innovate with it's roster and gameplay, so the idea that Ultimate is peak Smash is solely focusing on the size of the roster and not much else.
This. Ultimate is great, but it’s far from perfect & not above criticism. The online offerings are among the worst of any modern fighting game (& I don’t just mean the netcode), the lack of gender & ESPECIALLY ethnic diversity is glaring compared to the competition (both traditional & platform fighters alike), and the single-player offerings are still behind Melee & Brawl. There’s room for improvement.
 
They didn't purposefully leave out Sora Amiibo data in 2021 because they thought "doesn't matter, we can just patch it in later when we start work on Smash Bros 6".
I disagree because they've done this exact thing before with Cloud, Corrin, and Bayo's Amiibo getting dated in April 2017. They waited over a year and a half from when they were announced in December 2015 to give them dates, and when they released them in July 2017, it took only 8 months to get Ultimate revealed in March 2018. They've also never revealed a brand new Amiibo for a franchise not getting any new content. They at least showed Cloud, Corrin, and Bayo Amiibos in the final Smash presentation because they knew that's when they can get the most amount of eyes on new Amiibos in the line. It's weird to me to break that trend and not wait until the team got back together to work on a new project so Nintendo doesn't have to gather a bunch of employees back only for one Amiibo patch. I'm not entirely sure why people think Smash is OVER because... it's Smash. Nintendo isn't going to let it end, and us getting something by the end of 2025 is extremely likely, in my opinion.
 
I can see Smash getting the MK8 Deluxe treatment this next gen, with a 4K Deluxe version on launch window.
Yeah because Nintendo has unlimited money to keep paying third party for their characters? Smash doesn’t need to show up for another 2 years into the systems life.

The course of action for Nintendo is to rework Smash. It’s to reboot the franchise and start back at a smaller cast of characters compared to what it is now. Sakurai had the choice to make a new Smash and decided to do Ultimate on Switch 1. They’re not gonna do it again.
 
Okay:
• Nintendo Switch has sold approximately 130 million units

• Super Smash Bros. Ultimate has sold about 30 million units

That means that about 23% of Switcj owners also own SSBU. Almost one in four Switch owners have the game. That’s a lot.

Nintendo could incentivise Switch owners to double dip or finally get the game by making a 4k version with a new Fighter Pass, but again, I only see this happening further in the succesor’s lifetime
If you're doing a deluxe version of a multiplayer game, you generally want it out near the launch of the system.
 
The Wii U was a failure. It made sense for Nintendo to port and deluxe games left and right for the Switch. This is not the same for Switch 2 and Wild to see people support this. Smash comes with more baggage than any other Nintendo game because of third party characters.
 
They've also never revealed a brand new Amiibo for a franchise not getting any new content. They at least showed Cloud, Corrin, and Bayo Amiibos in the final Smash presentation because they knew that's when they can get the most amount of eyes on new Amiibos in the line. It's weird to me to break that trend and not wait until the team got back together to work on a new project so Nintendo doesn't have to gather a bunch of employees back only for one Amiibo patch.
True, but that trend does not mean much. There is not many reasons why Nintendo would release new amiibo for a franchise that is not getting new content. However, in Smash's case, Sora is literally the only fighter not to have an amiibo released yet. That is most likely why said trend is being broken here. I don't think we need a small Amiibo update to tell us that the next smash bros is somewhat underway.

Also, Ultimate was a rare case. It released just 2 years after SSB4 development concluded. That is really quick in terms of smash. It took 6 years between melee to brawl and brawl to SSB4. Ultimate heavily relied on SSB4 for content. It's codename is literally Cross2 (Cross was the codename for SSB4).
I do not know why Ultimate was given a shorter development cycle, perhaps Nintendo wanted it to release sooner in the Switch's life? I have a feeling Iwata had something to do with it. Iwata and Sakurai were good friends, and iirc, shortly after Ultimate was revealed, Sakurai said Ultimate was his final gift to Iwata.

Anyways, that being said, I don't see the next smash game releasing until 2026 at the earliest, with an announcement in 2025.
 
Hey Para are a lot of Smash amiibos are planned for the November restock ?
image.png

Yes, all of Wave 2 is dated for November 10th. Wave 1 happened on August 28th and was related to the Sora Amiibo getting revealed. (Even if I have a lot of doubts that's the only thing that restock was for due to the console branding).
 
As much as Ultimate was a great piece of software, I don't think they're getting Sakurai back to do another one, and I think he really was the glue that made it work.
 
Yeah because Nintendo has unlimited money to keep paying third party for their characters? Smash doesn’t need to show up for another 2 years into the systems life.

The course of action for Nintendo is to rework Smash. It’s to reboot the franchise and start back at a smaller cast of characters compared to what it is now. Sakurai had the choice to make a new Smash and decided to do Ultimate on Switch 1. They’re not gonna do it again.

We don't know about their third party deal for their characters. Maybe they signed future-proof deals that included use on upscaled versions of the game on future hardware, we don't know.
 
When is other dated ?
Also for November 10th, it's one of the main reasons why it's notable. They haven't had a bunch of Amiibo restocks from different franchises be dated around the same time in a long time. Samus Returns Samus is the biggest question mark since while all of the other franchises have stuff coming out at least, Metroid currently doesn't.
 
We don't know about their third party deal for their characters. Maybe they signed future-proof deals that included use on upscaled versions of the game on future hardware, we don't know.
This was my genuine speculation back in 2021 lol, while I have my doubts about it now, it's funny that I've sort of come in a circle with this sort of thing.
 
Nintendo will need to find a way for the next Super Smash Bros stand out of Super Smash Bros Ultimate, i sure Masahiro Sakurai is thinking of ways how to envolve Super Smash Bros futher, but now i might take more time, the fact Masahiro Sakurai is fully focusing in his youtube channel, complicate furter Super Smash Bros on Switch sucessor
 
If there's one thing about Redrakted NG that I'm 100% certain about, it's that the next Smash Bros will not be a port of Ultimate or Melee, same with Mario Kart.
 
We don't know about their third party deal for their characters. Maybe they signed future-proof deals that included use on upscaled versions of the game on future hardware, we don't know.
You think Disney of all companies would agree to such a binding future-proof deal?

Nintendo will need to find a way for the next Super Smash Bros stand out of Super Smash Bros Ultimate, i sure Masahiro Sakurai is thinking of ways how to envolve Super Smash Bros futher, but now i might take more time, the fact Masahiro Sakurai is fully focusing in his youtube channel, complicate furter Super Smash Bros on Switch sucessor
Going by the games referenced in his YouTube channel, those videos are filmed months in advance. And given the output slowdown that started in June, ended in August, & started up again recently, we’re in the same batch of videos filmed up to May 2023. Between that & the fact that there’s only one Game Concept video left (Smash Ultimate), we could be close to the end.
 
We don't know about their third party deal for their characters. Maybe they signed future-proof deals that included use on upscaled versions of the game on future hardware, we don't know.
this is hard to believe, there is no company that will make cheap a deal like that specially disney, you are letting other company use your property with a lot of freedom if you do that, specially seeing that cloud in smash 4 had like 5 songs and with sora the only thing that has connection to them is the key in sora's keyblade, this without taking account the stage that i think it was changed where donald and goofy should have appear in the background
 
You think Disney of all companies would agree to such a binding future-proof deal?

If they want Sora in the game yeah ? It's also a win for KH franchise, not only Nintendo, maybe it's even them that reached out to be included in the game.
But ok let's say we lose Disney, Sora is gone and replaced by Geno, not a big deal.

Let's not forget that having your character in Smash is a huge promotional boost for each of their franchise, it's a win-win deal
 
If they want Sora in the game yeah ? It's also a win for KH franchise, not only Nintendo, maybe it's even them that reached out to be included in the game.
But ok let's say we lose Disney, Sora is gone and replaced by Geno, not a big deal.
at that point is not "Smash Ultimate Deluxe", this doesnt make any sense and with the amount of restrictions sora's inclusion has i doubt it was Disney who ask Nintendo to include sora if they would put all those conditions
 
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If they want Sora in the game yeah ? It's also a win for KH franchise, not only Nintendo, maybe it's even them that reached out to be included in the game.
But ok let's say we lose Disney, Sora is gone and replaced by Geno, not a big deal.

Let's not forget that having your character in Smash is a huge promotional boost for each of their franchise, it's a win-win deal
It’s clearly something Nintendo wants more than Disney. And Smash doesn’t really help elevate the sales of included franchise, so it won’t benefit KH much.

Also, losing Sora means you can’t really fully port Ultimate (hence my point).
 
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Ultimate Deluxe being a mandatory purchase for 4K, rather than having a 4K patch ready for Ultimate at launch, would be a little ridiculous.

"Ultimate" is in the name. "Ultimate Deluxe" is ridiculous, thus the jockular "Ultra Deluxe".
Ultimate Deluxe is such a hard sell IMO, and if those old rumors I talked about still hold merit and are not being confused for Smash 6, a Pass 3 is a much likelier outcome in my eyes. An Ultimate Deluxe would probably lock any new content behind a 70-dollar paywall at least, and it probably wouldn't be a ton of new content either. My current speculation is that we get a "Complete edition" Holiday 2024/Early 2025 with a Pass 3 leading up to it. (Once again, assuming it still holds some truth).
 
If they want Sora in the game yeah ? It's also a win for KH franchise, not only Nintendo, maybe it's even them that reached out to be included in the game.
But ok let's say we lose Disney, Sora is gone and replaced by Geno, not a big deal.

Let's not forget that having your character in Smash is a huge promotional boost for each of their franchise, it's a win-win deal

I found this coming from Sakurai in why new characters is not an easy "ok, you can do it"

https://kotaku.com/masahiro-sakurai-explains-how-sora-came-to-super-smash-1847906871#:~:text=“I talked about how I,bringing Sora to Smash Bros.
 
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Ultimate Deluxe is such a hard sell IMO, and if those old rumors I talked about still hold merit and are not being confused for Smash 6, a Pass 3 is a much likelier outcome in my eyes. An Ultimate Deluxe would probably lock any new content behind a 70-dollar paywall at least, and it probably wouldn't be a ton of new content either. My current speculation is that we get a "Complete edition" Holiday 2024/Early 2025 with a Pass 3 leading up to it. (Once again, assuming it still holds some truth).
But again, that may not be appealing to Nintendo since they’ll likely want Smash to move hardware. And you’d still run into the licensing issues mentioned earlier.
 
If there's one thing about Redrakted NG that I'm 100% certain about, it's that the next Smash Bros will not be a port of Ultimate or Melee, same with Mario Kart.
They'll both be there at launch as backwards compatible titles, possibly with enhancements, but yeah, NG Switch will likely also get some to call its own, too.
 
Not an impossible task just very difficult. I would bet they update ultimate for next gen then we get an actual new game maybe 3-4 years after that.
 
I think I would pay 200 dollars for an ultimate deluxe even if the only change was making R.O.B's down tilt come out two frames slower because that character is just bullshit. (i would also remove game and watch). Regardless, Idk why the topic of ultimate dx comes up and everyone becomes commercial lawyers. We don't know about any of the licensing stipulations but I'm sure they were thought about heavily after they put a fucking mercedes benz in mario kart. Whatever the deal was nintendo would try and find a way to get it done, not an impossible task just very difficult. I would bet they update ultimate for next gen then we get an actual new game maybe 3-4 years after that.
I never said it was impossible, but rather not worth the effort (legally speaking). I mean, why bother when you’ll likely still be able to play Ultimate on the Switch 2?
 
I never said it was impossible, but rather not worth the effort (legally speaking). I mean, why bother when you’ll likely still be able to play Ultimate on the Switch 2?
Idk how to really quantify effort in refreshing license agreements tbh but I agree with the conditions that If it's more trouble than it's worth then maybe we don't get a smash game quite like ultimate again.
 
Ultimate Deluxe is such a hard sell IMO, and if those old rumors I talked about still hold merit and are not being confused for Smash 6, a Pass 3 is a much likelier outcome in my eyes. An Ultimate Deluxe would probably lock any new content behind a 70-dollar paywall at least, and it probably wouldn't be a ton of new content either. My current speculation is that we get a "Complete edition" Holiday 2024/Early 2025 with a Pass 3 leading up to it. (Once again, assuming it still holds some truth).
I think they’ll want to do more than a Pass 3 though. Overhauling the online, faster loading times, 4K resolution, maybe new skins for characters like Mario and Link. A deluxe edition would allow them to do all that imo
 

Frame Generation, an explainer​

What the hell is Frame Generation? Don't games already generate frames?​

Well, yes, sorta. Games draw frames based on game logic that is currently executing, and the geometry, textures, and effects that the GPU is processing.

Frame generation is the process creating additional frames without any of that. No game logic, no geometry, no game shaders, nothing.

Wait, what? How?​

I'm going to tell you, but first, a word from our sponsor, Hello Fresh Frequently Asked Questions

Is this DLSS? FSR?​

DLSS is a suite of tools. One of those tools is Frame Generation, which Nvidia calls DLSS-FG. This tool was added in DLSS 3, so it's sometimes called DLSS 3, but that can get real confusing real fast.

FSR is a similar set of tools, and one of those tools is also Frame Generation, which AMD named FSR-FMF, or Fluid Motion Frames. It was also added in version 3 of FSR, and is sometimes called FSR3. Again, confusing.

"I saw that FSR frame generation, in Quality mode-"​

Lemme stop you right there, hoss. FSR-FMF doesn't have a "Quality" mode. Like I said, FSR is a suite of tools. One of them is Super Resolution, which does have a Quality mode. Remember what I said about the naming being confusing?

Same with DLSS. Frame generation is either "on" or "off", no other settings apply.

How it works, the short(ish) version​

Normally, when a game draws a frame, it sends it to your screen, then starts the next frame.

With frame gen, the frame doesn't go to your screen immediately. It gets saved for later. Meanwhile, your game gets on to drawing frame #2. That doesn't get sent to the screen either. It also gets buffered.

Now your game is starting on frame #3. That's when frame generation gets to work. Frame gen takes frame #1 and frame #2, and tries to figure out a frame that would go between those two frames.

No game uses 100% of the GPU 100% of the time. That's part of frame gen's secret. By only using the old frames, and these idle GPU resources, frame gen (hopefully) gets you new frames effectively for free. While the CPU is busy working on frame #3, frame gen quickly assembles a frame #1.5.

Frame #3 gets buffered. Frame #1.5 also gets buffered. And finally, the original frame #1 goes out to the screen. Game engine goes on to working on frame #4, while frame gen gets to work on frame #2.5, using the buffered copy of frame #2 and the frame #3 it just got.

So far, we've done a lot of work, and we've still only put one frame on the screen. But this is the moment when the magic happens. Frame gen stops what it's doing for a second, and puts frame #1.5 on the screen, before frame #4 is done. Then when frame #4 comes in, frame #2 goes out.

When all works exactly right, you get double your frame rate. Imagine a 120Hz display. 120 times a second, tick-tock-tick-tock, the display refreshes.

Without frame gen, say you are running a 60fps game. Every tick you get a new image on screen, every tock the image just stays there. Turn on frame gen, now you get the same frames you always got on the tick, but new generated frame every tock, hugely improving how smooth the image looks.

That wasn't short at all​

Believe me, it could get longer. In fact, it will!

Also, I can immediately see some problems​

Turns out, you're right about all of them!

The Problem(s) of Frame Generation​

Ghosting/Artifacting​

How good are these generated frames? The answer is, pretty good but not perfect. Here is an example from Spider-Man. The circled area is a big blurry glob around Spidey's leg. You can see smaller but similar artifacting around his hands.

Latency
Latency is just the measure of the time between pressing a button and something happening on screen. Frame generation depends on holding frames so you can make new frames in between then. Obviously that increases latency significantly.

Stutter/Pacing
Sometimes, frame gen won't finish in time, before the screen refreshes. When that happens, frame gen has to decide when to send out the frames it's holding - which means it might need to throw out work it's done on generated frames and start the process over again - or continue to hold the existing frames, causing a frame drop, and increased latency. Both these things will be experienced by the player as microstutter, and frame rate instability.

The Solution (singular) for Frame Pacing

Frame gen offers one solution to all these problems - only use frame generation when frame rates are already high.

Ghosting/Artifacting​

When you start from 20fps, objects can move a lot in a single frame. That makes it harder for frame gen to guess the right thing between the two frames, causing more visible artifacts. And with a lower frame rate, those artifacts are on screen longer, making them easier to see.

But if you start from 60fps, objects can't move as far each frame, so frame gen can make smarter choices about the generated frames. And because frames are only on screen for 10ms or less, the artifacts don't stick around long before being replaced by a clean, natively rendered frame.

Latency​

Frame gen needs to buffer two frames, so you get 1-2 frames of latency, at the native frame rate. If you start with a 20fps game, and add frame gen, thats 100ms of latency. Massive.

But if you start from a 60fps game, that's only 33ms of latency. The higher the base frame rate, the lower the latency that frame gen adds.

Stutter/Pacing
Once you get past 90+fps, frame pacing problems are almost impossible to notice. 120fps means a frame is only on screen for 8ms. 90fps is 11ms. That difference is so tiny, that you don't detect the stutter. It's just smoothness.

The Unsolvable Problem of Frame Generation​

What if there are no spare GPU cycles for frame gen to run. What then?

Well... nothing. Frame gen needs spare GPU power to run. This is (one of) the key things to understand about frame generation. Frame gen doesn't exist to help small, overloaded GPUs. Frame gen exists for big, underused GPUs.

The speed at which GPUs are improving is much much faster than CPUs are improving. And where CPUs are improving is by adding more cores. Game engines are exceptionally bad at using more cores.

Nvidia and AMD would really really like you to buy their big new GPU. But if you're not able to use all that GPU power, why would you? Enter frame generation. FG could slurp up all the unused power inside the GPU and give improvements even if the games themselves couldn't keep up.

Why FG isn't good for Switch NG​

Hopefully by now it should be obvious. I'm not talking about what's technologically possible. I'm talking about what's good for the system.

It wasn't designed to solve the sub 30fps problem, and is pretty bad at it.​

See "problems" above.

It doesn't work well with small GPUs​

A medium sized GPU running at 95% efficiency might have 1 spare TFLOP of performance in it's occasional idle moments. But that tiny bit of spare power that frame gen is trying to slurp up is like the entire performance of the Switch NG's GPU! Even if Switch NG is idle for significant portions of time, it's an open question of how much frame generation it would be able to do.

It doesn't work well in consoles

This is kind of a subtle point, but bear with me. A PC game isn't optimized for exactly your combination of GPU and CPU, and its exact load is going to depend on the settings you put into it. There is plenty of opportunity to create PC settings which leave room for frame gen.

But with a console, you've got a limited performance budget, dedicated hardware, and fewer tweakable settings. Poorly optimized games won't be able to use frame gen as a "crutch" because there won't be idle GPU power lying around, and well optimized games will be pushing the hardware to its limit.

You might be able to imagine the sort of graphically simple game that is running at 60fps, on Switch, but has the CPU pegged to the wall, while leaving plenty of GPU power idle. But does that sort of simulation heavy, low graphics game really going to play so much better at 120fps?

Why FG probably won't be on the Switch NG, Part 1​

Now we are talking about the technical hurdles. And to do that, we need to do a deeper dive on Frame Gen itself.

We understand how frame gen works at a high level, but the question we skipped ironically, is - how does it decide what to generate? We know what it's inputs are - it's starting with two natively rendered frames. but how does it figure out what goes between?

Optical Flow​

Imagine an Instagram filter for a second. One that gives you a pair of cute little faerie horns, say. When you tilt your head to the side, the horns follow. When you lean back, the horns tilt up, when you twist your head one horn gets larger the closer it gets to the camera, the other gets smaller.

How does it do that? How does it know how your head is moving in 3D space when it only has 2D pictures of your face?

The answer is pretty simple, it’s watching your eyes. Eyes get bigger, you’re closer to the camera, eyes get smaller, you’re further away. One eye gets larger, the other smaller, you’re twisting your head, the shape of your eyes seems to get wider at the bottom, you’re tilting your head up.

This is a simple example of something called optical flow. Take two images and try to figure out the 3D motion between them.

When frame gen starts working on making a generated frame, it’s first step is to perform an optical flow analysis of the two frames to figure out how to objects in the scene are moving.

Optical Flow? Sounds familiar​

If you’ve heard folks talk about Nvidia’s OFA, or optical flow accelerator. Nvidia has custom hardware for these sorts of operations. In the RTX 40 cards, Nvidia increased the size of that OFA in order to improve frame generation. The reason should be pretty obvious by now - it's about being able to do optical flow at 60fps. The old, RTX 30 OFA is likely fast enough for 30fps games, but frame gen doesn't like low frame rates.

AMD doesn't have optical flow hardware, so instead it uses the existing GPU to do this analysis.

Interpolation​

With two native frames, and optical flow data, it's time to actually generate the "fake" middle frame.

FSR does this with hand-written code that runs on the GPU. DLSS uses AI. Both are trying to do the same thing - to shift pixels so they are halfway between the first frame and the second frame, but do so in a way that doesn't make objects appear to break up into a smear of pixels. You want Spidey's hand to stay looking like a hand. Otherwise instead of more frames what your eyes actually see is lots of motion blur.

Why it won't be on Switch NG, Part 2​

Performance​

It seems that Switch NG won't have the larger OFA that Nvidia introduced in their newer cards. That leaves frame gen having to use the GPU for optical flow, like FSR does. And Frame Gen doesn't like low frame rates.

For high frame rate frame gen, we're asking the GPU to not only render a game at 60fps, but to leave enough resources on the GPU to do optical flow at 60fps, and to interpolate at 60fps.

What about lower frame rates? What if I don't care about quality?

Well, I would suggest that most developers, who are going to control whether or not frame gen is available, do care about quality.

But also, why not... lower the settings? There are other ways to increase frame rates while sacrificing image quality. Remember, frame gen only increased smoothness. It doesn't do anything else that extra frames do in video games. So if the resulting product is less smooth then why use it? Here is a quick screenshot of the main character from Forspoken on the ROG Ally, with frame generation off



Now, if you've got a good eye, you can tell that this is a YouTube clip, and that there is video compression here, and you would be right. You might be about to argue that any comparisons might not be valid, because YouTube artifacts are getting in the way. Hold your horses. This is what happens when you turn frame gen on.



I guarantee that compression artifacts aren't why she doesn't have the top of her head. With low frame rates as inputs to frame gen, it can't easily tell where the edges of objects are, and so a little head move by Freya and frame gen just erases her whole skull.

Which is not to say no games will ship with some form of frame generation. I'm sure someone will do it. But will it be common or halfway decent? Probably not!

Appendix: Anti-lag/Reflex​

Nvidia's marketing has especially pushed this "lag free" narrative around frame generation, so I wanted to take a second and talk about that.

Frame gen creates 2 frames of lag. Period. It always, always, always does. However, both AMD and Nvidia have introduced new lag reduction technologies, and both require that these lag reduction tools be on when using frame gen. The idea is that these tools can reduce latency in other places, to compensate for the latency added by frame-gen.

Sometimes this works. Sometimes it doesn't. Most of the time it does okay. But these latency technologies can be turned on without using frame gen, and they only work if the game has latency to fix in the first place.

Nvidia's Reflex solution - the only one available on Switch NG - involves forcing the GPU to be slightly underutilized all the time. You can see that this is part of Nvidia's move to take advantage of the lots of extra power that their new GPUs offer, even if games can't use it directly. You can also see how that might be a bad fit for a small device which doesn't want to waste a drop of performance.

Beat me to it. Dammit.

Great job as always.
 
am I the only one who doesn't want to see any more re-releases aka MK8/SmashU Complete Editions for the new system? let these be and give us brand new games. If Nintendo wants to generate excitement for the new system this is not the way to do it. patch them sure but give people a better reason to upgrade.

I think you might be the only one.
 
am I the only one who doesn't want to see any more re-releases aka MK8/Smash Complete Editions for the new system? let these be and give us brand new games. If Nintendo wants to generate excitement for the new system this is not the way to do it. patch them sure but give people a better reason to upgrade.
You aren’t the only one.
 
You aren’t the only one.
there seems to be a line of thinking that Nintendo will only have cross-gen & third party titles for launch. similar to the idea they can release MK8/Smash Ultimate again and that's somehow going to be a good way to start off a new generation. crazy if you ask me.
 
am I the only one who doesn't want to see any more re-releases aka MK8/Smash Complete Editions for the new system? let these be and give us brand new games. If Nintendo wants to generate excitement for the new system this is not the way to do it. patch them sure but give people a better reason to upgrade.
I still want Xenoblade X, dammit
 
Please read this staff post before posting.

Furthermore, according to this follow-up post, all off-topic chat will be moderated.
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