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StarTopic Future Nintendo Hardware & Technology Speculation & Discussion |ST| (Read the staff posts before commenting!)

Reader mode
On the subject of new game card formats, I've done a little bit of digging and found what I believe to be the prime candidate for the tech behind the next gen game cards; single-gate vertical channel (SGVC) 3D NAND. In 2017 Macronix published a paper on the technology, including results on a test chip they had manufactured. I don't have access to the paper itself, but the abstract is pretty informative:

We have successfully developed a 128Gb MLC (or 192Gb TLC) 3D NAND Flash using 16-layer SGVC architecture. The produced memory density is 1.6 Gb/mm 2 for MLC or 2.4 Gb/mm 2 for TLC (including CMOS peripheral area, spared BL's and blocks). Such memory density is comparable to 48-layer 3D NAND using the popular gate-all-around (GAA) structures. SGVC has the important advantage of much smaller cell size and pitch scaling capability which allows very high-density memory at much lower stacking layer number. SGVC possesses very robust read disturb immunity (>120M read) and long-retention (> 40 years at room temperature) at fresh state that can suppress the very frequent wear-leveling and refresh operations needed for other 3D NAND Flash devices and is very suitable for read-intensive memory. With further stacking/scaling, it is possible to realize low-cost 1Tb single-chip solution at merely 48 layers.
Click to expand...

There are a few important things here. It's got very long data retention (40+ years), is described as "very suitable for read-intensive memory", and achieves high capacities at low cost. The sample chip they manufactured was 128Gb (16GB) on a 16-layer process, and they claim that 1Tb (128GB) chips would be possible on a 48-layer process at low cost. It could presumably scale even further in capacity with additional layers.

That seems like a technology pretty much perfectly designed for Nintendo. In fact this article about it stated it was "suitable for read-intensive applications such as game-grade memory". I don't know if this is a quote from Macronix or the author's addition, but it would be surprising if Macronix didn't see this as something they could provide to Nintendo.

In 2019, this article stated that Macronix planned to introduce SGVC after their ordinary (GAA-based) 3D NAND business is established. That's taken a bit longer than expected, but they started mass production of 48-layer GAA 3D NAND in 2021 and 96-layer in 2022. Which would put the introduction of SGVC 3D NAND at right around the right time to be used for Nintendo's new console.

Incidentally, it appears that Macronix have been using a mix of XtraROM and NAND in Switch game cards all along. Thanks to @LiC who passed the info along to me. Game cards up to 4GB seem to use XtraROM, while cards 8GB and up use NAND. No specifics on the NAND, but presumably it's tweaked in some way to provide better longevity in a write-once use-case. I don't know whether they're using any 3D NAND, but that's only been available from Macronix recently, so anything prior to last year would have to be planar NAND.

This also explains why development on XtraROM ceased after they hit 32nm in 2014, as they switched to a NAND variant. The 4GB capacity of the largest XtraROM parts is the same as the largest 3DS games (although they claimed 8GB, I don't think any games actually used 8GB cards), so it seems like 4GB is the limit of capacity on 32nm XtraROM.
 
theguy said:
just for fun: what’s potentially the worst thing people think nintendo could do with the switch 2?
Click to expand...
Oh lots, and things they have indulged on in the past under the previous management team

  • no BC
  • Clunky BC that basically boots to the old console OSand doesn't let players seamlessly use it it under the new OS
  • Digital library doesn't carry over even under the same account
  • unnecessary gimmicks that fizzle out
  • avalanche of day 1 late ports from 3rd parties who then get burned due to low sales and stop supporting the console
 
theguy said:
just for fun: what’s potentially the worst thing people think nintendo could do with the switch 2?
Click to expand...
Not use it to its absolute fullest potential visually - the thought of the next Zelda or Xenoblade looking like Horizon, Ghost of Tsushima or the Outer Worlds makes me giddy
 
GigaUltraMoon said:
Monolith Soft have two secondary studio teams separate from their primary developers that exist purely as supporting/assistant roles; one specific to Zelda (Tokyo Production Team 2), and the other for non-Zelda EPD properties (Kyoto Production Team)
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I dont think it's that simple, looking at the credits there's around 100 people from the Xenoblade 3 development team that also worked on Tears of The Kingdom, so if Nintendo needs people to help with their games, they'll pull them in.
 
Dekuman said:
Oh lots, and things they have indulged on in the past under the previous management team

  • no BC
  • Clunky BC that basically boots to the old console OSand doesn't let players seamlessly use it it under the new OS
  • Digital library doesn't carry over even under the same account
  • unnecessary gimmicks that fizzle out
  • avalanche of day 1 late ports from 3rd parties who then get burned due to low sales and stop supporting the console
Click to expand...
1. If you are referring to Switch, that was because its technologically extremely difficult. Everything is different.
2. Nvidia will solve it. They never had a tech partner of that calibre.
3. They never really had a decent account system in previous transitions
4. That could definitely happen.
5. Also, could definitely happen.
 
hologram said:
I would say that art style has a far bigger impact in how the former games look compared to the latter than graphical fidelity does
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I'd say there's a good case to be made that it's both, if you've seen how people emulate Breath of the Wild with graphic enhancements for example that cover everything from colour saturation to improved lighting and texture density, the world transcends gorgeous and becomes mesmerising

If it's true that NG Switch will be somewhere between PS4 to PS4 Pro in what it can be expected to accomplish, then its software should be stunning just to look at, never mind to play
 
0
Thraktor said:
On the subject of new game card formats, I've done a little bit of digging and found what I believe to be the prime candidate for the tech behind the next gen game cards; single-gate vertical channel (SGVC) 3D NAND. In 2017 Macronix published a paper on the technology, including results on a test chip they had manufactured. I don't have access to the paper itself, but the abstract is pretty informative:

We have successfully developed a 128Gb MLC (or 192Gb TLC) 3D NAND Flash using 16-layer SGVC architecture. The produced memory density is 1.6 Gb/mm 2 for MLC or 2.4 Gb/mm 2 for TLC (including CMOS peripheral area, spared BL's and blocks). Such memory density is comparable to 48-layer 3D NAND using the popular gate-all-around (GAA) structures. SGVC has the important advantage of much smaller cell size and pitch scaling capability which allows very high-density memory at much lower stacking layer number. SGVC possesses very robust read disturb immunity (>120M read) and long-retention (> 40 years at room temperature) at fresh state that can suppress the very frequent wear-leveling and refresh operations needed for other 3D NAND Flash devices and is very suitable for read-intensive memory. With further stacking/scaling, it is possible to realize low-cost 1Tb single-chip solution at merely 48 layers.
Click to expand...

There are a few important things here. It's got very long data retention (40+ years), is described as "very suitable for read-intensive memory", and achieves high capacities at low cost. The sample chip they manufactured was 128Gb (16GB) on a 16-layer process, and they claim that 1Tb (128GB) chips would be possible on a 48-layer process at low cost. It could presumably scale even further in capacity with additional layers.

That seems like a technology pretty much perfectly designed for Nintendo. In fact this article about it stated it was "suitable for read-intensive applications such as game-grade memory". I don't know if this is a quote from Macronix or the author's addition, but it would be surprising if Macronix didn't see this as something they could provide to Nintendo.

In 2019, this article stated that Macronix planned to introduce SGVC after their ordinary (GAA-based) 3D NAND business is established. That's taken a bit longer than expected, but they started mass production of 48-layer GAA 3D NAND in 2021 and 96-layer in 2022. Which would put the introduction of SGVC 3D NAND at right around the right time to be used for Nintendo's new console.

Incidentally, it appears that Macronix have been using a mix of XtraROM and NAND in Switch game cards all along. Thanks to @LiC who passed the info along to me. Game cards up to 4GB seem to use XtraROM, while cards 8GB and up use NAND. No specifics on the NAND, but presumably it's tweaked in some way to provide better longevity in a write-once use-case. I don't know whether they're using any 3D NAND, but that's only been available from Macronix recently, so anything prior to last year would have to be planar NAND.

This also explains why development on XtraROM ceased after they hit 32nm in 2014, as they switched to a NAND variant. The 4GB capacity of the largest XtraROM parts is the same as the largest 3DS games (although they claimed 8GB, I don't think any games actually used 8GB cards), so it seems like 4GB is the limit of capacity on 32nm XtraROM.
Click to expand...
I think the story is clearer now that we know they weren't stuck on XtraROM all this time, so it's not like they now have to find some way to make NAND work for the next console. Between that and the availability of this newer NAND tech that seems to meet all their needs, I think this is a very good guess at the whole picture.
 
Dekuman said:
  • Clunky BC that basically boots to the old console OSand doesn't let players seamlessly use it it under the new OS
  • Digital library doesn't carry over even under the same account
  • unnecessary gimmicks that fizzle out
  • avalanche of day 1 late ports from 3rd parties who then get burned due to low sales and stop supporting the console
Click to expand...
Truno said:
Name it Switch U
Click to expand...
64icd0.jpg
 
LiC said:
I think the story is clearer now that we know they weren't stuck on XtraROM all this time, so it's not like they now have to find some way to make NAND work for the next console. Between that and the availability of this newer NAND tech that seems to meet all their needs, I think this is a very good guess at the whole picture.
Click to expand...
Do we know if TotK was produced with planar NAND? Or could it already be a case of 3D NAND?
It really surprised me that Nintendo went with a 32GB cartridge, instead of simply cutting a bit of the file and using a 16GB one, even though the cartridges were cheaper for them
 
LiC said:
I think the story is clearer now that we know they weren't stuck on XtraROM all this time, so it's not like they now have to find some way to make NAND work for the next console. Between that and the availability of this newer NAND tech that seems to meet all their needs, I think this is a very good guess at the whole picture.
Click to expand...
If 3DNand is available I’m curious why it wouldn’t be an option for Switch today with associated cost savings known by the folks in the loop.

Quick someone open their TotK card and look to see if it’s 3DNand.

Edit: already asked and answered.
 
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0
LinkURL said:
Do we know if TotK was produced with planar NAND? Or could it already be a case of 3D NAND?
It really surprised me that Nintendo went with a 32GB cartridge, instead of simply cutting a bit of the file and using a 16GB one, even though the cartridges were cheaper for them
Click to expand...
That's an interesting question. My gut reaction was to just say no. However, I recalled that Spawn Wave disassembled a TotK card, and the Macronix ROM chip's model number is MX23K256GL1. That is a 32 GB chip, but the model number is actually slightly different from the known MX23K256GL0. Could that last digit be a revision number, indicating that TotK is using different tech than the original 32 GB cards? I haven't found any evidence outside this video from which we could infer the meaning of that digit.

I would still assume it's not 3D NAND, since they'd have had to make essentially an old Switch version of tech that was really going to be adopted for the new Switch, requiring the use of the old Switch card connectors and form factor and such (especially since in this case, the connectors are built right into the ROM chip). But I suppose the possibility isn't zero.
 
LiC said:
That's an interesting question. My gut reaction was to just say no. However, I recalled that Spawn Wave disassembled a TotK card, and the Macronix ROM chip's model number is MX23K256GL1. That is a 32 GB chip, but the model number is actually slightly different from the known MX23K256GL0. Could that last digit be a revision number, indicating that TotK is using different tech than the original 32 GB cards? I haven't found any evidence outside this video from which we could infer the meaning of that digit.

I would still assume it's not 3D NAND, since they'd have had to make essentially an old Switch version of tech that was really going to be adopted for the new Switch, requiring the use of the old Switch card connectors and form factor and such (especially since in this case, the connectors are built right into the ROM chip). But I suppose the possibility isn't zero.
Click to expand...
I feel like a move to a different technology, would be more than 1 digit.
 
Hermii said:
I feel like a move to a different technology, would be more than 1 digit.
Click to expand...
I was going to say that too, but consider that the 4 GB chips using XtraROM are MX23J32GL0, while the 8 GB chips using NAND are MX23K64GL0 -- the only difference in those model numbers is the capacity, even though they are definitely different technologies.

Never mind, I forgot that the former are MX23J while the latter are MX23K.

So yeah, very unlikely that TotK is using 3D NAND, or any tech other than planar NAND. They may have changed something about the 32 GB cards, but we can't confirm if that was even recent.
 
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LiC said:
I was going to say that too, but consider that the 4 GB chips using XtraROM are MX23J32GL0, while the 8 GB chips using NAND are MX23K64GL0 -- the only difference in those model numbers is the capacity, even though they are definitely different technologies.
Click to expand...
Huh, perhaps the last digit does indicate a revision in the type of chip.
 
0
NateDrake said:
Is this a good thing?
Click to expand...

If Prime 4 was developed for Switch from the start always targeting that spec and the software is ready for release, I would say its in the games best interest to roll it out for a holiday 2023 release. I think they showed off with Prime Remastered that their tech was solid and I believe they can squeeze even more out of Switch with Prime 4 now that they are targeting the the hardware from the ground up and the development will be almost entirely in house. They outsourced quite a bit of work for Prime Remastered. Even though Switch is in its seventh year on the market, it is still a very healthy platform. With 130 million units sold, Prime 4 later this year could be a stand out title for lots of gamers who aren't enamored with 2D Mario or Mario RPG. If you ask me personally what I want, I would absolutely rather wait a bit longer and get Prime 4 with boosted visuals on the next gen hardware, but honestly if it looks as good as Prime Remastered I will still enjoy the crap out of it.

Z0m3le said:
My guess is Nintendo releases a smaller handheld, a Switch mini, the size of the vita for $179 and stops making both the OLED and lite models,
Click to expand...

My bet is on a discount for Switch Lite rather than a new model. At this point I am confident they can sell the Lite for $149 and still make money. Creating a new model would require R&D as well as retooling at the manufacturing level for a late gen model that would likely never reach 10 million units sold. The safe choice is to discount the Lite and that is a very attractive price point for parents looking to get little Jimmy his first console. Its also in impulse buy territory. There are plenty of casuals who will see that $149, maybe it even comes with MK8, and on whim buy it because they know the catalog of Switch games is extensive and there are plenty of bargain bin options for games.

Z0m3le said:
They sell the OLED for $350 and it sells great... Why would they worry about $400 for a more modern device that plays the same games and new ones in 4k?
Click to expand...

Agree. Having the best price doesn't seem to matter as much these days, maybe it never did. If you have an attractive product that really resonates with people, they are pretty accepting of spending $400+ on something they really want. GameCube was only $149 for most of its generation and even $99 towards the end but was still outsold by its more expensive competitors. Switch is a wildly popular product with tens of millions of people still engaged with it on a regular basis. I see no reason to believe it would be any more or less successful, especially early on, because of it being $399 compared to $349. $499 might be pushing it a bit and slow down the initial momentum, but even that I don't think would stop it dead in its tracks.
 
theguy said:
just for fun: what’s potentially the worst thing people think nintendo could do with the switch 2?
Click to expand...
Confusing us too much. They are confusing anyway but I like to imagine that they have a "We are gonna Nintendo" Meter they need to keep below Nintendo 64% otherwise they enter a new dimension were we can‘t grasp what they are even doing.
 
Dekuman said:
Clunky BC that basically boots to the old console OSand doesn't let players seamlessly use it it under the new OS
Click to expand...

I am hopeful that this is not the case, but people should brace themselves for the possibility. We saw how Wii handled GC backwards compatibility and then Wii U with Wii, historically booting into the original OS is how they handled it. Nintendo understands the importance of BC to consumers, but they may also want to push it away from the spotlight. They want to sell us new hardware so we can purchase new games. While it wouldnt be ideal, having a "Switch" app on SNG that allows you to access all your Switch games would be functional enough that there wouldn't be backlash in the same way that not having BC at all would. I do think there is some desire for them to declutter the digital store front and distinguish SNG from the previous model.
 
theguy said:
just for fun: what’s potentially the worst thing people think nintendo could do with the switch 2?
Click to expand...
Commercially speaking, it's giving it a name that doesn't convey that is a brand-new console, basically repeating the mistake they made with the Wii U. The name wasn't the only aspect that lead to confusion with the Wii U, sure, but it certainly didn't help. Nintendo should not take any risk and just call it Switch 2 in my opinion.

Personally speaking though, the console not being BC would be terrible. It's a deal breaker for me really, I probably won't get the console right away if it's not BC while if it is I could do the unwise thing and actually get a new console on its release date.
 
Thraktor said:
Incidentally, it appears that Macronix have been using a mix of XtraROM and NAND in Switch game cards all along. Thanks to @LiC who passed the info along to me. Game cards up to 4GB seem to use XtraROM, while cards 8GB and up use NAND. No specifics on the NAND, but presumably it's tweaked in some way to provide better longevity in a write-once use-case. I don't know whether they're using any 3D NAND, but that's only been available from Macronix recently, so anything prior to last year would have to be planar NAND.
Click to expand...
@Thraktor @LiC This is a very interesting find. How confident are you regarding the Game Cards already using NAND? I’m asking because judging from Macronix’s Q2 (April-June 2023) financial report, TotK’s 32GB Game Card seems to use ROM not NAND.

As you can see below, in Q2 Macronix wasn’t doing so hot either QoQ or YoY. The only bright spot was its ROM business:

jX2Dwxt.png


Why? Because a “high density” product for a “legendary game title” went supernova:

Cm5bj70.png


Unless Macronix categorizes their NAND based Game Cards (if indeed in production) as “ROM”, it seems that the 32GB TotK cartridge is still using ROM.
 
fwd-bwd said:
@Thraktor @LiC This is a very interesting find. How confident are you regarding the Game Cards already using NAND? I’m asking because judging from Macronix’s Q2 (April-June 2023) financial report, TotK’s 32GB Game Card seems to use ROM not NAND.

As you can see below, in Q2 Macronix wasn’t doing so hot either QoQ or YoY. The only bright spot was its ROM business:

jX2Dwxt.png


Why? Because a “high density” product for a “legendary game title” went supernova:

Cm5bj70.png


Unless Macronix categorizes their NAND based Game Cards (if indeed in production) as “ROM”, it seems that the 32GB TotK cartridge is still using ROM.
Click to expand...
Macronix calls it "MLC NAND (ROM TYPE)," so I wouldn't be surprised if they categorize it as ROM. And both kinds of chips are called "(density)G-bit ROM Type Game Card Memory."

Like I noted above, strictly speaking the TotK chip's model number slightly differs from the one I can be certain is for a 32 GB NAND chip, but the "MX23K" prefix still places it in that set of chips. The XtraROM chips are "MX23J."
 
Goodtwin said:
I am hopeful that this is not the case, but people should brace themselves for the possibility. We saw how Wii handled GC backwards compatibility and then Wii U with Wii, historically booting into the original OS is how they handled it. Nintendo understands the importance of BC to consumers, but they may also want to push it away from the spotlight. They want to sell us new hardware so we can purchase new games. While it wouldnt be ideal, having a "Switch" app on SNG that allows you to access all your Switch games would be functional enough that there wouldn't be backlash in the same way that not having BC at all would. I do think there is some desire for them to declutter the digital store front and distinguish SNG from the previous model.
Click to expand...
overhauling the way the current eshop looks and making it less slow to explore would be a better way to go about things rather than trying to separate the two eshops for each platform as their own ecosystem imo.

Give users more ways to filter things if needed as well, etc.
 
fwd-bwd said:
@Thraktor @LiC This is a very interesting find. How confident are you regarding the Game Cards already using NAND? I’m asking because judging from Macronix’s Q2 (April-June 2023) financial report, TotK’s 32GB Game Card seems to use ROM not NAND.

As you can see below, in Q2 Macronix wasn’t doing so hot either QoQ or YoY. The only bright spot was its ROM business:

jX2Dwxt.png


Why? Because a “high density” product for a “legendary game title” went supernova:

Cm5bj70.png


Unless Macronix categorizes their NAND based Game Cards (if indeed in production) as “ROM”, it seems that the 32GB TotK cartridge is still using ROM.
Click to expand...
"ROM" gets thrown around perhaps a bit overly liberally when it comes to solid state memory (I think Flash could technically be considered a from of EEPROM, or electronically erasable, programmable ROM), but calling NAND-based Switch carts "ROM" would be very in line with the spirit of the term.
 
LiC said:
Macronix calls it "MLC NAND (ROM TYPE)," so I wouldn't be surprised if they categorize it as ROM. And both kinds of chips are called "(density)G-bit ROM Type Game Card Memory."

Like I noted above, strictly speaking the TotK chip's model number slightly differs from the one I can be certain is for a 32 GB NAND chip, but the "MX23K" prefix still places it in that set of chips. The XtraROM chips are "MX23J."
Click to expand...
Pokemaniac said:
"ROM" gets thrown around perhaps a bit overly liberally when it comes to solid state memory (I think Flash could technically be considered a from of EEPROM, or electronically erasable, programmable ROM), but calling NAND-based Switch carts "ROM" would be very in line with the spirit of the term.
Click to expand...
Thank you. That makes sense. Since the 8GB and up Game Cards already use NAND, it doesn’t seem to reflect much of a cost advantage?
 
TomNookYankees said:
  • Only 128GB Flash Internal Storage
  • Only 8GB of LPPDR5 RAM
  • downlocked even more than expected
  • priced at $449 or more
Click to expand...
We can go lower. I could see Nintendo go 64 GB storage in the absolute worst case scenario to "save money" and maximize profits. But no more than $400, unless they include a game...
 
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Concernt said:
Brushed. Aluminium.
Click to expand...

I’d love for them to use more metals. I updated my post with a real answer about not nailing look - the curbside appeal so to speak.

That said, when they talked about the OLED production they put a lot of emphasis on how using metals can make things much heavier so they had to do some clever engineering to make it happen with minimal weight change. I’m expecting once again that the use of aluminium is pretty sparse, especially as the whole unit is going to be larger.

Edit:

Somewhat related to the aluminium kick stand…

The more I think on the 8” screen and inevitably more comfortable joy-cons, the more I suspect the gimmick (or at least one of them) is going to be expanding the marketing and viability of tabletop mode.

The launch system was a very poor tabletop experience. The OLED model was a notable improvement, but still a little rough for catching small details - I dabbled in Splatoon 3 and it was serviceable. But that extra real estate and resolution at 8” might be enough to tip it past serviceable and into “good.”
 
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karmitt said:
Yeah!-ed just to spite the glossy pervs in here.

Real answer tho is atomic purple launch color.

* Real real answer for me (assuming hybrid is a given and software isn’t in scope) is regressive build quality. Great look and feel need to be immediately apparent, and no worse than previous gen.
Click to expand...
Switch 2 is revealed. First render shown, and it's:

710oQjrgC3L.jpg
 
karmitt said:
I’d love for them to use more metals. I updated my post with a real answer about not nailing look - the curbside appeal so to speak.

That said, when they talked about the OLED production they put a lot of emphasis on how using metals can make things much heavier so they had to do some clever engineering to make it happen with minimal weight change. I’m expecting once again that the use of aluminium is pretty sparse, especially as the whole unit is going to be larger.

Edit:

Somewhat related to the aluminium kick stand…

The more I think on the 8” screen and inevitably more comfortable joy-cons, the more I suspect the gimmick (or at least one of them) is going to be expanding the marketing and viability of tabletop mode.

The launch system was a very poor tabletop experience. The OLED model was a notable improvement, but still a little rough for catching small details - I dabbled in Splatoon 3 and it was serviceable. But that extra real estate and resolution at 8” might be enough to tip it past serviceable and into “good.”
Click to expand...
I would expect far MORE metal.

OLED Model basically only has one plastic part, and that's the back panel, with half of it covered by a metal kickstand and ALL of it just over a metal midplate.

The benefit to metal, one they also pointed out, is the device can be smaller and thinner without sacrificing strength. Those seem like essential qualities if they want to keep the device small enough to fit in a handbag AND make the screen gigantic.

As for tabletop mode... I'm a total proselytiser for tabletop mode. It's THE unique feature. And in my opinion it's great! I played BOTW primarily in tabletop mode, same for Splatoon 2, and Pokémon Shield, and those have ended up some of my favourite games ever in part because of tabletop mode. For me, OLED Model brought tabletop mode from "serviceable and neat" to "amazing and immersive". Tabletop Mode is what makes the "home console on the go" dream come alive. Why play Tears of the Kingdom cooped up in bed when I could prop it up and play it, wireless controller and headphones, fully immersed-

On a train or a plane to another city! That's just incredible to me.

I even played Mario Kart 8 Deluxe on OLED Model with 4 player split screen, in a crowded hall, and you know what? The screen was big enough and the speakers were loud enough! Not to mention the countless games in high school and college playing Smash Bros. with a sideways Joy-Con at a lunch table.

7.91" and big comfy pack in controllers, throw in improved Bluetooth, and it goes from amazing for me to the ideal media consumption THING.
 
ah yes speculation

Nintendo Switch Deluxe
identical OS
slightly bigger so it won't fit in old docks and old Joy-Con look weird if attached
new Joy-Con can smell fear, and have analog triggers so you can't use old Joy-Con for new games
new 3D Mario looks like a god damned Pixar movie somehow
 
0
Goodtwin said:
I am hopeful that this is not the case, but people should brace themselves for the possibility. We saw how Wii handled GC backwards compatibility and then Wii U with Wii, historically booting into the original OS is how they handled it. Nintendo understands the importance of BC to consumers, but they may also want to push it away from the spotlight. They want to sell us new hardware so we can purchase new games. While it wouldnt be ideal, having a "Switch" app on SNG that allows you to access all your Switch games would be functional enough that there wouldn't be backlash in the same way that not having BC at all would. I do think there is some desire for them to declutter the digital store front and distinguish SNG from the previous model.
Click to expand...
The BC app is gonna be called “Switch - Nintendo Switch Online” lol
 
Concernt said:
I would expect far MORE metal.

OLED Model basically only has one plastic part, and that's the back panel, with half of it covered by a metal kickstand and ALL of it just over a metal midplate.

The benefit to metal, one they also pointed out, is the device can be smaller and thinner without sacrificing strength. Those seem like essential qualities if they want to keep the device small enough to fit in a handbag AND make the screen gigantic.

As for tabletop mode... I'm a total proselytiser for tabletop mode. It's THE unique feature. And in my opinion it's great! I played BOTW primarily in tabletop mode, same for Splatoon 2, and Pokémon Shield, and those have ended up some of my favourite games ever in part because of tabletop mode. For me, OLED Model brought tabletop mode from "serviceable and neat" to "amazing and immersive". Tabletop Mode is what makes the "home console on the go" dream come alive. Why play Tears of the Kingdom cooped up in bed when I could prop it up and play it, wireless controller and headphones, fully immersed-

On a train or a plane to another city! That's just incredible to me.

I even played Mario Kart 8 Deluxe on OLED Model with 4 player split screen, in a crowded hall, and you know what? The screen was big enough and the speakers were loud enough! Not to mention the countless games in high school and college playing Smash Bros. with a sideways Joy-Con at a lunch table.

7.91" and big comfy pack in controllers, throw in improved Bluetooth, and it goes from amazing for me to the ideal media consumption THING.
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I can appreciate that you thought it was great with OLED Model, but my Splatoon 3 skills suffered. I was rubbish at Salmon Run in tabletop, but I used it so I could play the game in the same room as my wife when she might be using the TV. I also still find it too cramped to share the screen and feel like we’re playing well - something like overcooked was more of a mess than it need to be.

I maintain that 8” could be about establishing a great standard from the start, one where even I feel like I’m not missing out on details. I can’t overstate that it was a pretty weak part of the original Switch’s identity, and they can fix that here from the outset.
 
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Goodtwin said:
I am hopeful that this is not the case, but people should brace themselves for the possibility. We saw how Wii handled GC backwards compatibility and then Wii U with Wii, historically booting into the original OS is how they handled it. Nintendo understands the importance of BC to consumers, but they may also want to push it away from the spotlight. They want to sell us new hardware so we can purchase new games. While it wouldnt be ideal, having a "Switch" app on SNG that allows you to access all your Switch games would be functional enough that there wouldn't be backlash in the same way that not having BC at all would. I do think there is some desire for them to declutter the digital store front and distinguish SNG from the previous model.
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If it isn't clunky, a separate app (that maybe could boot the Switch OS but not visibly) to play your digital Switch games doesn't sound so bad. And they could make the app icon glow if you insert an Switch cartridge or something. I would find this more elegant that just having everything on the homescreen.
 
Thraktor said:
On the subject of new game card formats, I've done a little bit of digging and found what I believe to be the prime candidate for the tech behind the next gen game cards; single-gate vertical channel (SGVC) 3D NAND. In 2017 Macronix published a paper on the technology, including results on a test chip they had manufactured. I don't have access to the paper itself, but the abstract is pretty informative:



There are a few important things here. It's got very long data retention (40+ years), is described as "very suitable for read-intensive memory", and achieves high capacities at low cost. The sample chip they manufactured was 128Gb (16GB) on a 16-layer process, and they claim that 1Tb (128GB) chips would be possible on a 48-layer process at low cost. It could presumably scale even further in capacity with additional layers.

That seems like a technology pretty much perfectly designed for Nintendo. In fact this article about it stated it was "suitable for read-intensive applications such as game-grade memory". I don't know if this is a quote from Macronix or the author's addition, but it would be surprising if Macronix didn't see this as something they could provide to Nintendo.

In 2019, this article stated that Macronix planned to introduce SGVC after their ordinary (GAA-based) 3D NAND business is established. That's taken a bit longer than expected, but they started mass production of 48-layer GAA 3D NAND in 2021 and 96-layer in 2022. Which would put the introduction of SGVC 3D NAND at right around the right time to be used for Nintendo's new console.

Incidentally, it appears that Macronix have been using a mix of XtraROM and NAND in Switch game cards all along. Thanks to @LiC who passed the info along to me. Game cards up to 4GB seem to use XtraROM, while cards 8GB and up use NAND. No specifics on the NAND, but presumably it's tweaked in some way to provide better longevity in a write-once use-case. I don't know whether they're using any 3D NAND, but that's only been available from Macronix recently, so anything prior to last year would have to be planar NAND.

This also explains why development on XtraROM ceased after they hit 32nm in 2014, as they switched to a NAND variant. The 4GB capacity of the largest XtraROM parts is the same as the largest 3DS games (although they claimed 8GB, I don't think any games actually used 8GB cards), so it seems like 4GB is the limit of capacity on 32nm XtraROM.
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Hopefully this means that the Game Cards specific to Nintendo's new hardware can achieve at least 1 GB/s in sequential read speeds. (I know that sequential read speeds are not as important as random read speeds, but I'm using sequential read speeds since Mike Cerny mentioned sequential read speeds.)
Concernt said:
I would expect far MORE metal.

OLED Model basically only has one plastic part, and that's the back panel, with half of it covered by a metal kickstand and ALL of it just over a metal midplate.

The benefit to metal, one they also pointed out, is the device can be smaller and thinner without sacrificing strength. Those seem like essential qualities if they want to keep the device small enough to fit in a handbag AND make the screen gigantic.
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The question I have is how is Nintendo going to deal with Wi-Fi reception if Nintendo's going to use more metal for Nintendo's new console. The reason why I ask is because metal can block Wi-Fi signals due to the conductive nature of metals in general. And the Nintendo Switch and the OLED model are infamous for having poor Wi-Fi reception and/or Wi-Fi issues. I don't think a newer Wi-Fi chip alone is going to fix Wi-Fi reception issues. I think Nintendo also has to pay attention to the Wi-Fi antennae placement.
 
Could the 8" display be an indication that Nintendo is using an old Samsung fabrication node for this device?

Larger, less efficient SoC, requires more cooling, larger battery to hit targets, etc.....hence the need to create a larger housing therefore requiring a larger display?
 
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