• Hey everyone, staff have documented a list of banned content and subject matter that we feel are not consistent with site values, and don't make sense to host discussion of on Famiboards. This list (and the relevant reasoning per item) is viewable here.

StarTopic Future Nintendo Hardware & Technology Speculation & Discussion |ST| (Read the staff posts before commenting!)

Oldpuck has already responded, but I'd agree with him that the 2x improvement in power efficiency required to make this work is way too much to expect from Drake's GPU. The biggest gen-on-gen power efficiency improvement of recent years without a change in manufacturing process is RDNA to RDNA2, where AMD claimed a 54% improvement in performance per Watt, and that required pretty fundamental changes right across the architecture. Here's AMD's slide on how they hit a 54% improvement:

Nvidia would need almost twice that improvement over Orin's GPU to hit a similar handheld power draw as TX1 (let alone Mariko), which is just too big a stretch for me.

That doesn't mean I'm ruling out 8nm by any means, it just means that if it's 8nm, then I don't think they can run all 12 SMs in portable mode, in a device the same size and form-factor as the current models, with at least as good a battery life as the original model. Something's got to give, whether it's size or battery life or form-factor or whatever. I honestly wouldn't rule out a surprising change to the form factor. We're all assuming this new device is going to be a Switch-but-faster, even though we don't have any conclusive evidence on that front.
Just stating "2x improvement" here is hard for me to engage with when it's based on so much rough estimation. With how much uncertainty there is, starting with the wrong chip being used as the basis for all the numbers, to not knowing what changed in the design, there's more than enough to go from "the napkin math says this isn't possible" to "oh well it turned out to just barely be possible with OG Switch battery life."
 
Without having any idea what the current mood in the room is, just from the fact that Nintendo is not telling us anything about a Zelda game that is supposed to release in 5 months, I can almost believe there will be at least a hardware revision coming in time for that game's release, & they're only not telling us right now because holiday sales.

Am I the only one?
Definitely not. I believe we could have gotten more info on Totk by now as well. I'm feeling confident Drake will release within 3 months/launch window of Totk release. Same week is most likely I think. Not betting on before though.
Good to know I am not crazy.

I am torn on whether I want a new console or a Switch revision tho cause I am running out of space under my TV and I already have 2 Switches. I really don't need a third. And a new console would need to be backwards compatible because otherwise how am i getting through my backlog?

I am positive TotK will run on the OG Switch as well, but when it comes to Zelda, I always need to play the best version, so I am torn af xD
You have two switches? Wait. We'll likely get news by February if it's coming out with Zelda.

Yeah it's gonna be a botw Wii u/switch situation and I feel confident Nintendo will give a solid performance to the switch version. But likely at the same resolution and performance as botw switch.
 
I think TOTK will launch day 1 with Drake support, but I'm almost certain the Drake Switch will come out before it.

Two words:

Golden Week.

If Nintendo wants a H1 launch and it's slated for CY2023 Q2, that means an April launch if it's not a March one. As others have pointed out, special edition consoles lately have come out two weeks BEFORE the game they're attached to. Launching two weeks before TOTK buts the Drake Switch in late April, but importantly, BEFORE Golden Week.
Golden Week would be an appropriate time to launch a Golden Triforce edition of the Drake, for sure 👀
 
I think TOTK will launch day 1 with Drake support, but I'm almost certain the Drake Switch will come out before it.

Two words:

Golden Week.

If Nintendo wants a H1 launch and it's slated for CY2023 Q2, that means an April launch if it's not a March one. As others have pointed out, special edition consoles lately have come out two weeks BEFORE the game they're attached to. Launching two weeks before TOTK buts the Drake Switch in late April, but importantly, BEFORE Golden Week.


Possibly. I mean Golden Week really only carries meaning in Japan, but since they're not launching in the holiday window, that's the next best option.

EDIT: I'll be in Japan until March 25th, can they please launch if before then because Japan always gets the cool stuff that you can never buy here. Thanks.

Definitely not. I believe we could have gotten more info on Totk by now as well. I'm feeling confident Drake will release within 3 months/launch window of Totk release. Same week is most likely I think. Not betting on before though.

You have two switches? Wait. We'll likely get news by February if it's coming out with Zelda.

Yeah it's gonna be a botw Wii u/switch situation and I feel confident Nintendo will give a solid performance to the switch version. But likely at the same resolution and performance as botw switch.

Yeah I do have two. A launch model and an OLED. They got me with the OLED cause while my launch model still works perfectly fine (it's amazing really), the bigger screen was an excuse for me, because I play 50% handheld. And the sleek white dock man...that dock.

Anyways it's not like I am planning to buy another one UNLESS they release a revision or Switch 2 in time for Zelda. Then my Zelda fan heart will have to, I am cool having other games downgraded just for the portability factor (eg I recently got P5R on Switch, even tho I have a PS5 also), but when it comes to Zelda I always want the best option ;;
 
Possibly. I mean Golden Week really only carries meaning in Japan, but since they're not launching in the holiday window, that's the next best option.

EDIT: I'll be in Japan until March 25th, can they please launch if before then because Japan always gets the cool stuff that you can never buy here. Thanks.



Yeah I do have two. A launch model and an OLED. They got me with the OLED cause while my launch model still works perfectly fine (it's amazing really), the bigger screen was an excuse for me, because I play 50% handheld. And the sleek white dock man...that dock.

Anyways it's not like I am planning to buy another one UNLESS they release a revision or Switch 2 in time for Zelda. Then my Zelda fan heart will have to, I am cool having other games downgraded just for the portability factor (eg I recently got P5R on Switch, even tho I have a PS5 also), but when it comes to Zelda I always want the best option ;;
April has a bunch of other advantages. I went into more detail earlier, but the short version is:

First month of Fiscal Year getting a huge boost looks good.
Before and in time for Golden Week.
After American tax return season so liquid cash in US economy high compared to May.
Before Americana and European travel/vacation season in May-Sept., where discretionary income is diverted to travel.

April takes advantage of all of these conditions. So too does March, which would be my preference, but April is just as likely and gives them a whole extra month to market the thing if they're doing reveal to release so quickly. That said, Microsoft got away with 2 months, Nintendo got away with less before. The gap between the announcement of New Nintendo 3DS for Europe and its release in Europe was less than a month.
 
So there's some additional instructions or features which Drake has over Orin, which aren't necessarily pulled from Ada. I've been thinking about this for a while, and I think the most likely reason for this is actually what I was discussing above. Namely, that Nvidia has added or changed some number of instructions on the Drake shader ISA to more easily facilitate translation-based BC with TX1 shaders. There's not really much else that I can think of which would warrant any change over Orin. The only SM-level changes that could have been back-ported from Ada would have been the updated tensor cores and RT cores, but I think we have good indications from the leak that we're looking at standard Ampere tensor and RT cores. Meanwhile one of the benefits of designing a custom SoC for your new console is that you can make these kinds of changes to achieve better backwards compatibility with existing games.
One part of the leaked source shows SM versions 8.6, 8.7, and 8.8 all mapping to SPA version 8.6, with another code comment referring to SM version as the "hardware revision" of the SM block, and SPA version as the ISA version. So if that's true, then all three share the same instruction set.

There is more info about the instructions in each ISA, organized by SM version, but SM88 is missing from it and it's a bit contradictory on whether SM86 and SM87 are identical and when exactly the Hopper instructions first became available.
 
April takes advantage of all of these conditions. So too does March, which would be my preference, but April is just as likely and gives them a whole extra month to market the thing if they're doing reveal to release so quickly. That said, Microsoft got away with 2 months, Nintendo got away with less before. The gap between the announcement of New Nintendo 3DS for Europe and its release in Europe was less than a month.
Yeah, the new 3DS had less than a month and a half from announcement to release in Japan. And the big launch title, monster hunter 4G, was already revealed ahead of time with its release date (October 11, 2014). And majora’s mask 3D was revealed in a November direct in North America, while the new 3DS was officially announced in the following year in January.

So, in both cases, the big launch title of this system was already known ahead of time, even before the hardware has been announced. It would be very similar if they revealed switch 2 was launching on May 12. But I could also launch before Zelda, just like the original 3DS. That system had mostly third-party titles at launch, while ocarina of time 3D launched a few months later.

So it’ll be interesting to see which route they go with. I am leaning towards a launch with Zelda, but I could see it going the other way as well. My one holdup is that if we were launching in April, we probably would’ve heard about manufacturing right now from Mochizuki or another source.
 
I think TOTK will launch day 1 with Drake support, but I'm almost certain the Drake Switch will come out before it.

Two words:

Golden Week.

If Nintendo wants a H1 launch and it's slated for CY2023 Q2, that means an April launch if it's not a March one. As others have pointed out, special edition consoles lately have come out two weeks BEFORE the game they're attached to. Launching two weeks before TOTK buts the Drake Switch in late April, but importantly, BEFORE Golden Week.

I think Nintendo would put preference towards their next generation console releasing day and date with a strong launch title. I’m sure they don’t mind missing this “golden week” for a chance to repeat 2017 by having Zelda and Switch 2 coming out the gate side-by-side. New hardware + big launch title = more sales. And it doesn’t get much bigger than a new mainline Zelda.
 
I think Nintendo would put preference towards their next generation console releasing day and date with a strong launch title. I’m sure they don’t mind missing this “golden week” for a chance to repeat 2017 by having Zelda and Switch 2 coming out the gate side-by-side. New hardware + big launch title = more sales. And it doesn’t get much bigger than a new mainline Zelda.
Why would they put preference next to a game that's already launch window?

"Missing a chance to repeat 2017"?

The time they launched a console with Zelda in the launch window, after American tax season, and before Golden Week?

This thing doesn't need Zelda at launch. It's Switch Pro. It will sell out instantly regardless. With that demand being inelastic and tied to supply, if they want better sales of Zelda: Tears of the Kingdom its better for them to wait for a few more Drake equipped consoles to be in the wild than launch day. So maybe after one or two further shipments. Say, two weeks after?
 
0
Yeah, the new 3DS had less than a month and a half from announcement to release in Japan. And the big launch title, monster hunter 4G, was already revealed ahead of time with its release date (October 11, 2014). And majora’s mask 3D was revealed in a November direct in North America, while the new 3DS was officially announced in the following year in January.

So, in both cases, the big launch title of this system was already known ahead of time, even before the hardware has been announced. It would be very similar if they revealed switch 2 was launching on May 12. But I could also launch before Zelda, just like the original 3DS. That system had mostly third-party titles at launch, while ocarina of time 3D launched a few months later.

So it’ll be interesting to see which route they go with. I am leaning towards a launch with Zelda, but I could see it going the other way as well. My one holdup is that if we were launching in April, we probably would’ve heard about manufacturing right now from Mochizuki or another source.
As I've said before. May for a console release just doesn't make sense. The only thing going for it is launching the same day as Zelda. Which gives it... Zero actual benefit compared to launching before it. In fact it's not as advantageous. Zelda will not be supply constrained. The Drake Switch will be. It makes sense to have more units out ahead of time because Zelda will do better with a larger install base.

Edit:

Sorry if this came off as excessively snarky, that wasn't my intent.
 
Last edited:
I suspect that launching hardware shortly before the game would help sell the latter, while a simultaneous launch would help sell the former
But that's the thing, "the former" in this case is Nintendo Switch 2. Super Nintendo Switch. Nintendo Switch Pro.
It doesn't NEED help in its opening weeks. It's a new model of Nintendo Switch.

So you're better off making sure as many people as possible have it in their hands before the big game comes out for it.

And once again, I will reiterate that launching before Zelda isn't a matter of selling Zelda, it's a matter of more favourable market conditions.

Edit: Again with my tone, I don't mean to bite anyone's head off. I should probably get some rest and see y'all after my morning coffee.
 
But that's the thing, "the former" in this case is Nintendo Switch 2. Super Nintendo Switch. Nintendo Switch Pro.
It doesn't NEED help in its opening weeks. It's a new model of Nintendo Switch.

So you're better off making sure as many people as possible have it in their hands before the big game comes out for it.

And once again, I will reiterate that launching before Zelda isn't a matter of selling Zelda, it's a matter of more favourable market conditions.

Edit: Again with my tone, I don't mean to bite anyone's head off. I should probably get some rest and see y'all after my morning coffee.
I had meant to write a second paragraph saying this but clearly forgot to lmao
 
Damn near and month is a good month to launch Drake, so "doesn't make sense" is a non-argunent. Launching in may with Zelda would be more about not giving failure any possible quarter.
 
Damn near and month is a good month to launch Drake, so "doesn't make sense" is a non-argunent. Launching in may with Zelda would be more about not giving failure any possible quarter.
It's not an argument. However, May being less favourable market conditions than April, however, is what I'm arguing, and from what data I've seen it appears true. If this thing launches within the next 6-12 months and ISN'T a train wreck in some catastrophic capacity, it will not fail, at least not at launch. But similarly launching day and date with Zelda is no guarantor of success. Launching before or with Zelda have the exact same benefits for the console; the number 1 place to play the new, amazing Zelda game. If it launches a little earlier it has the benefit of improved market conditions AND Zelda. With Zelda, it only has Zelda. Is Zelda enough? Absolutely, yes, I think it is. But if they can have both, why not have both?
 
I suspect that launching hardware shortly before the game would help sell the latter, while a simultaneous launch would help sell the former
Launching with the game also saves heavily on shipping costs, same reason amiibos always launch with a game, even if it's unrelated to the amiibo.
 
I don't expect them to release new hardware without a game. The Switch, Switch Lite, and Switch OLED all released the same day as notable Nintendo games. Why would it be any different this time around? I could maybe see it launching with a different game, but Tears of the Kingdom makes the most sense, favorable market conditions be damned. I think new hardware with a new Zelda would sell well regardless of timing.
 
Launching with the game also saves heavily on shipping costs, same reason amiibos always launch with a game, even if it's unrelated to the amiibo.
that does make sense

why do you think they've put out so many special editions two weeks ahead of games?
 
that does make sense

why do you think they've put out so many special editions two weeks ahead of games?
If you're asking for real (can't tell) it's probably because that's when the games are actually physically shipped out, they just aren't released until a little later.
 
I don't believe this has been shared, but Nvidia released a research paper and videos (here and here) last year on using machine learning via NVCell to design chips for different process nodes.
 
Last edited:
It's not an argument. However, May being less favourable market conditions than April, however, is what I'm arguing, and from what data I've seen it appears true. If this thing launches within the next 6-12 months and ISN'T a train wreck in some catastrophic capacity, it will not fail, at least not at launch. But similarly launching day and date with Zelda is no guarantor of success. Launching before or with Zelda have the exact same benefits for the console; the number 1 place to play the new, amazing Zelda game. If it launches a little earlier it has the benefit of improved market conditions AND Zelda. With Zelda, it only has Zelda. Is Zelda enough? Absolutely, yes, I think it is. But if they can have both, why not have both?
all that applies to Zelda as well, which shows that the dates are largely arbitrary. if launching with Zelda isn't a guarantee of success, neither is launching separate of zelda. market conditions don't improve in such a rapid time given the date of the hardware in conjunction with zelda are known quantities.
 
all that applies to Zelda as well, which shows that the dates are largely arbitrary. if launching with Zelda isn't a guarantee of success, neither is launching separate of zelda. market conditions don't improve in such a rapid time given the date of the hardware in conjunction with zelda are known quantities.
I think we agree there. They're going to be successful regardless.
 
0
Just stating "2x improvement" here is hard for me to engage with when it's based on so much rough estimation.
2x is over Orin Nano. There isn’t really any fuzzy estimation there.

We can clock Orin AGX to match Drake’s config. When we clock it to match Orin Nano’s config the power draw is almost identical, so we can have high confidence in those numbers.

Nano is very close to Orin’s config, with none of the fixed function blocks that Drake doesn’t have. Nano 8Gb runs 21.1W in a Drake config (8 Cores/12SMs, at ~Switch docked clocks). OG Switch runs 11W docked, when not charging. A Drake based Switch needs to run at 50% of Orin's power to match OG Erista TDP. This isn't fuzzy, it's just a question of how close Orin and Drake are to each other.

Note, since both the Switch TDP and the Nano 8GB TDP include memory, if the gains are in the SOC it needs to be >50%, to overcome memory overhead. And since the GPU is only part (though the majority) of the chip, it either needs to be across the board improvements >50% or significantly more than 50% in the GPU alone.

With how much uncertainty there is, starting with the wrong chip being used as the basis for all the numbers, to not knowing what changed in the design, there's more than enough to go from "the napkin math says this isn't possible" to "oh well it turned out to just barely be possible with OG Switch battery life."
I don’t disagree with the notion that there is a wide range of possibilities but what do you mean by “wrong chip”? (I’m asking genuinely, zero snark here, I respect your analysis and knowledge a great deal)

Differences between Drake and Orin that might contribute to power draw:
  • The absence of any self-driving car hardware on die.
    • I'm dubious there is any advantage here over Nano having them fused off, but perhaps someone more knowledgable could step in?
  • The tensor cores are double rate on Orin.
    • This is probably a decent savings
  • Drake has FLCG
    • No sense how big, but if it's included, it is probably significant
  • The CPU variant
    • ARM marketing gives the same power numbers for A78 and A78AE, I don't expect A78C is a win. It might be a loss
  • Unknown GPU optimizations
    • Orin and Drake have similar production timelines, and Ampere is a mature arch, but perhaps there are some of these out there?
I, personally, look at this list and just don't see 10W. But I would love to be wrong!
 
I wonder if Nate is simply waiting for confirmation that any one of the Drake exclusive games he knows about is going to be in the/an upcoming early year (likely February) Direct and/or presentation. That would probably give him the 100% confirmation he needs that the system is launching H1 2023.
 
I definitely think Nintendo's going to have the CPU frequency be less than 2 GHz, which is going to help to some degree in terms of power consumption (and possibly chip yields).
Absolutely. These power draw numbers have the CPU clocked down to 1.1Ghz.

I’m definitely buying a Nano to play with myself, though I’m not sure how useful it is for the purposes of this thread, except to get some fine grained CPU numbers.

I’m also pegging the GPU to 728Mhz which is the closest preset to docked mode’s 768Mhz. Nano has a max of 640Mhz, but as Orin has a minimum of 420Mhz, docked mode at that level doesn’t leave a lot of legroom for handheld.
 
0
2x is over Orin Nano. There isn’t really any fuzzy estimation there.

We can clock Orin AGX to match Drake’s config. When we clock it to match Orin Nano’s config the power draw is almost identical, so we can have high confidence in those numbers.

Nano is very close to Orin’s config, with none of the fixed function blocks that Drake doesn’t have. Nano 8Gb runs 21.1W in a Drake config (8 Cores/12SMs, at ~Switch docked clocks). OG Switch runs 11W docked, when not charging. A Drake based Switch needs to run at 50% of Orin's power to match OG Erista TDP. This isn't fuzzy, it's just a question of how close Orin and Drake are to each other.

Note, since both the Switch TDP and the Nano 8GB TDP include memory, if the gains are in the SOC it needs to be >50%, to overcome memory overhead. And since the GPU is only part (though the majority) of the chip, it either needs to be across the board improvements >50% or significantly more than 50% in the GPU alone.


I don’t disagree with the notion that there is a wide range of possibilities but what do you mean by “wrong chip”? (I’m asking genuinely, zero snark here, I respect your analysis and knowledge a great deal)

Differences between Drake and Orin that might contribute to power draw:
  • The absence of any self-driving car hardware on die.
    • I'm dubious there is any advantage here over Nano having them fused off, but perhaps someone more knowledgable could step in?
  • The tensor cores are double rate on Orin.
    • This is probably a decent savings
  • Drake has FLCG
    • No sense how big, but if it's included, it is probably significant
  • The CPU variant
    • ARM marketing gives the same power numbers for A78 and A78AE, I don't expect A78C is a win. It might be a loss
  • Unknown GPU optimizations
    • Orin and Drake have similar production timelines, and Ampere is a mature arch, but perhaps there are some of these out there?
I, personally, look at this list and just don't see 10W. But I would love to be wrong!
I'm having trouble articulating my issues with it beyond what I've already said. These numbers all come from presets on a power estimation tool, and what's being estimated isn't the exact same as a different chip that's actually fabricated with that configuration running on a different board. For what gap does really exist (and I'm not disputing there is one), we don't know what Nvidia can or can't do when they're creating a custom version of the chip to suit a specific customer's needs, or how Nintendo is willing to compromise for it in battery life, or what tradeoffs they can make against it with size, weight, or a costlier battery. What we do know is that this is a decision made with quite a lot of weight behind 8nm as the default assumption, and that it was likely made a good long time ago, when some of the public information being used to analyze it now simply wasn't known.

You may think these are small reasons, and that I'm not responding to the technical arguments in appropriate terms, but that's kind of the point. 8nm should be the default assumption and for me it's a tall ask for a technical argument based on estimates to get away from that when so many avenues to compensate for it exist. And it's not that any one of those things ("Nvidia will just customize it for power efficiency bro!" -me) is enough to dispute the estimates, but all of them together compound to the point where I see "it just barely works" is within the margin of error of those estimates.

The existence of these tests and estimates did convince me that a process newer than 8nm is possible! They just can't convince me that 8nm isn't possible, or that it's only a remote possibility.
 
So based off of the UE5.1 update to Fortnite do we think a new Switch could handle lumen + nanite for the new visuals? Obviously at a lower fidelity than series S but still. I know it is hard to tell without knowledge of the storage solution or the CPU clocks but even taking it at the low end?
 
So based off of the UE5.1 update to Fortnite do we think a new Switch could handle lumen + nanite for the new visuals? Obviously at a lower fidelity than series S but still. I know it is hard to tell without knowledge of the storage solution or the CPU clocks but even taking it at the low end?
Someone posted a video in the previous page. A Ryzen APU with 2 tflops GPU and with similar CPU speeds as current gen consoles (but Zen 3 instead of Zen 2) can run Fortnite at 1080p 98 fps with high settings, or 1080p 30 fps with Lumen/UE5 and some low settings for some effects.
This makes me think it's definitely a GPU thing for the 30 fps with UE5.

Important to note that PS4 and xbone support UE5.

So Drake should perform better than last gen and we might be able to get 60fps on UE5 for Fortnite, if we get something like 3-4 tflops docked and with DLSS.. But the settings won't nearly be as high as current gen PS5/x series x. DLSS could help though.

Would be interesting to see how SD and Series S performs. SD shouldn't perform as well as that AMD APU though.
 
Drake has FLCG
  • No sense how big, but if it's included, it is probably significant
This would be more of something that’s integrated into the SoC design, rather than a specific hardware block. As in, you wouldn’t find it if you looked for it, because it would be everywhere. I’m not sure if this is only for the GPU or for all components in the SoC in this case, as in did nvidia do it just for the GPU or everyone? If you catch my drift here (DualSense and Joycon not included).


The CPU variant
  • ARM marketing gives the same power numbers for A78 and A78AE, I don't expect A78C is a win. It might be a loss
There shouldn’t be a win or a loss here. It’s the same picture for this case….

Actually if it was split between two clusters you’d see more like…. having to power more than one L3 than just powering a single L3 that is shared between the A78 cores.


And even then, this is an assumption… as the 8 core single cluster isn’t only just for the A78, only saying that there’s a small chance it isn’t A78! That’s all! I’m defaulting to A78, but don’t rule out the possibility, that it can be something newer, or older…. It’s custom for Nintendo and their needs.



I, personally, look at this list and just don't see 10W. But I would love to be wrong!
Here’s my thing, it’s difficult to properly compare Drake and Errista that was in the original switch from 2017. Now, I think that even if both drew the exact same power it is possible that Drake would still offer you a slightly longer battery life on average than the 2017 model, who is rated for 2.5 to 6.5 hours.

Why is that?

I have a feeling that they were aiming for 3-7H as the minimum battery life, but the issues that were plaguing the process, which was already widely known for its power leakage issues and was a quick stop for most products aiming to hit and then leave it to the next process node of 16/14nm.


But they factored that leakage into the rated battery life of 2.5-6.5H. The averaged time. Because that’s what they got. 20nm was pretty poor!


So, this is all to say that let’s say that both are 10W, that is not to say that these two at 10W will give the exact same behavior. I suspect that the FLCG is aimed for that level of control for it, to reduce the leakage or help manage it as best as possible. The nodes newer than 20nm don’t have this issue to the same degree… until 3nm which is supposedly just “20nm part 2: the sequel you didn’t ask for, baby!”


mayhap Nintendo can hit the same TDP as the original ERRISTA, and get a bit of a better battery life of 2.5-6.5H with some of this.



But these are all assumptions that
A) Nintendo is fine going below the V2/OLED for battery life with the next flagship
B) Nvidia was able to deliver something really good, efficiency-wise and let’s Nintendo be more free with clocks.
 
0
As I've said before. May for a console release just doesn't make sense. The only thing going for it is launching the same day as Zelda. Which gives it... Zero actual benefit compared to launching before it. In fact it's not as advantageous. Zelda will not be supply constrained. The Drake Switch will be. It makes sense to have more units out ahead of time because Zelda will do better with a larger install base.

Edit:

Sorry if this came off as excessively snarky, that wasn't my intent.
People said a March launch for Switch was weird back in 2016, too. But I stand by the statement I made with Switch back in the day: it lets them take plenty of time to iron out launch quirks and any potential supply hiccups prior to the largest global shopping season. That it might be May specifically would probably come down to some internal corporate planning decision at Nintendo that we'll never be privy to but makes plenty of sense internally.
Important to note that PS4 and xbone support UE5.
Technically, so does Switch, but when it comes to the features people talk about when they invoke "UE5", they're talking about Lumen and Nanite or feature-complete UE5. Lumen is 100% not supported on PS4 or Xbox One. Nanite is offered experimentally to PS4 and XBOne and, in Epic's own words, may not meet all needs to deliver a shippable product.
 
Without having any idea what the current mood in the room is, just from the fact that Nintendo is not telling us anything about a Zelda game that is supposed to release in 5 months, I can almost believe there will be at least a hardware revision coming in time for that game's release, & they're only not telling us right now because holiday sales.

Am I the only one?

Eh, I'm kind of torn. It's not like 5 months is a short amount of time. And it's not like TotK didn't just win Most Anticipated Game at the TGA, for whatever that's worth. It's a sequel and won't be relied upon to introduce and carry an entirely new product line for Nintendo (whether or not it launches with or near Drake and whether Drake is a revision or successor, it'll still be part of the massively successful Switch family) - so the known quantity factor and current hype level are enough reasons for Nintendo to "not tell us anything" at the moment.

I mean, I'm leaning towards and hoping something is released in the spring, but whatever level of current "radio silence" coming from Nintendo regarding TotK is not an indication for or against it.
 
The existence of these tests and estimates did convince me that a process newer than 8nm is possible! They just can't convince me that 8nm isn't possible, or that it's only a remote possibility.
Oh I'm not trying to convince you! I also default to 8nm, I'm just trying to find the boundaries of the power draw problem, and use it to "check our work".
 
0
Eh, I'm kind of torn. It's not like 5 months is a short amount of time. And it's not like TotK didn't just win Most Anticipated Game at the TGA, for whatever that's worth. It's a sequel and won't be relied upon to introduce and carry an entirely new product line for Nintendo (whether or not it launches with or near Drake and whether Drake is a revision or successor, it'll still be part of the massively successful Switch family) - so the known quantity factor and current hype level are enough reasons for Nintendo to "not tell us anything" at the moment.

I mean, I'm leaning towards and hoping something is released in the spring, but whatever level of current "radio silence" coming from Nintendo regarding TotK is not an indication for or against it.
I agree. Holiday sales is all the motivation Nintendo needs to not promote TOTK until next year.

Even with zero promotion, totk will sell millions.
 
Despite new hardware being marketed to a more dedicated enthusiast crowd, what kind of reveal is expected of Nintendo by everyone here? Superficial marketing buzzwords ("4K* in a portable form factor!" *4K available only when docked), a bigger peak behind the curtain by actively thanking DLSS, or full on clocks and specs before the inevitable in-depth teardown after launch?

I worry Nintendo will misjudge and just go for the superficial market buzzwords and won't even go that deep on hardware details for one on one interviews with the usual news circuits and it might start to undermine confidence in how well the system could perform prior to launch.
 
I think '4K' will be a sexy marketing bullet point but I don't think they'll ever reveal how they got there. By 'they' I mean Nintendo, maybe Nvidia might.

I worry Nintendo will misjudge and just go for the superficial market buzzwords and won't even go that deep on hardware details for one on one interviews with the usual news circuits and it might start to undermine confidence in how well the system could perform prior to launch.
They may not have to, the games and exclusives should speak for themselves. If I see Elden Ring, RE4 remake, Street Fighter 6, Jedi Survivor, etc. running smoothly on the device, even if I know nothing about FLOPs, I'll assume it's a nice piece of kit. Like how they showed Skyrim in the first Switch reveal - or going further back - the Game Boy Advance showing off how much of a 'portable SNES' it was to illustrate that leap over the GB/C.
 
Despite new hardware being marketed to a more dedicated enthusiast crowd.

We don't know that. I for one believe that the ship has long sailed for this kind of console (a "pro" model). It has since the end of 2021 in my opinion. So whatever new console arrives will, in my opinion, just be treated as a new generation of switch, like the PS2 was a new generation of PlayStation.
 
Despite new hardware being marketed to a more dedicated enthusiast crowd, what kind of reveal is expected of Nintendo by everyone here? Superficial marketing buzzwords ("4K* in a portable form factor!" *4K available only when docked), a bigger peak behind the curtain by actively thanking DLSS, or full on clocks and specs before the inevitable in-depth teardown after launch?

I worry Nintendo will misjudge and just go for the superficial market buzzwords and won't even go that deep on hardware details for one on one interviews with the usual news circuits and it might start to undermine confidence in how well the system could perform prior to launch.
Exclusive games and better performance are all that are needed to market it. At the end of the day, software is king.
 
0
I think '4K' will be a sexy marketing bullet point but I don't think they'll ever reveal how they got there. By 'they' I mean Nintendo, maybe Nvidia might.
At the most we get a Nvidia blogpost saying something like “our state of the are reconstruction, using the same
Architecture as the worlds top graphic cards”.
 
Nintendo will promote their new ways to play or whatever, Nvidia will mention some more technical stuff.

the most buzzword-y they're gonna be is "4K" and "RAY TRACING" with actual examples of both
In Zelda at launch possibly, among an exclusive, probably experimental game (like ARMS was).
 
0


Open question of whether or not its going to take till RDNA 4 for the chiplet design to pay off, or if there is room for iterative upgrades now. Reading through AMD's info on the architecture, it's clear that GPUs don't have some of the easy wins that CPUs had. I was hoping that matrix cores and RT cores could be split out via chiplets and scaled in number to specific cards for the workload, but I don't think that's possible.

As it stands, the CU continues to evolve to look more and more like Ampere's SM, and RDNA 3 isn't delivering on the perf-per-watt of a full node shrink. But it still feels like there is meat on the bone of the chiplet design. Really hoping this pays off.
 


Open question of whether or not its going to take till RDNA 4 for the chiplet design to pay off, or if there is room for iterative upgrades now. Reading through AMD's info on the architecture, it's clear that GPUs don't have some of the easy wins that CPUs had. I was hoping that matrix cores and RT cores could be split out via chiplets and scaled in number to specific cards for the workload, but I don't think that's possible.

As it stands, the CU continues to evolve to look more and more like Ampere's SM, and RDNA 3 isn't delivering on the perf-per-watt of a full node shrink. But it still feels like there is meat on the bone of the chiplet design. Really hoping this pays off.

supposedly, there are some big architectural flaws with RDNA3 that's really hurting the power consumption and clocks
 


Open question of whether or not its going to take till RDNA 4 for the chiplet design to pay off, or if there is room for iterative upgrades now. Reading through AMD's info on the architecture, it's clear that GPUs don't have some of the easy wins that CPUs had. I was hoping that matrix cores and RT cores could be split out via chiplets and scaled in number to specific cards for the workload, but I don't think that's possible.

It makes no sense to remove the raytracing units and the matrix units and offer them as chiplet designs, because the way they function is having it right there readily with the shader units.

Splitting them up and which would occur bringing in latency that is completely negligible by being coupled to the shader itself, which has other issues and implications in the design of it. And I’ve seen this idea pop up before of a ray tracing coprocessor or ray tracing chiplet, or a matrix core chiplet, and it makes no sense because the latency would be above what it should be.






Latency Sensitivity. Guthe [17] found latency has a significant effect on ray tracing workloads executing on a GPU, and thus we study the impact of the latency of different portions of the RT unit. The leftmost group of bars in Figure 17 show the effect of in- creasing the latency of intersection tests and the resulting lowered speedups. The numbers over the bars indicate the latency in cycles of the intersection test unit. We also explore varying access latency and bandwidth (rays per cycle) for the predictor (next two sets of bars). The results indicate latency is less important for the predictor than for intersection tests. Similarly, increasing the bandwidth of the predictor has little benefit. Only one prediction is performed per ray while many intersection tests per ray are required for rays without predictions or with mispredictions.



The only way that a “chiplet” like design can work is they fundamentally change the way GPUs operate to not be parallel and function completely like CPUs. I need to remind people the Intel has been doing retracing long before Nvidia has ever since Larabee, and that’s 2008. And the current Intel Arc hardware properly reflects that because they do have better ray tracing hardware than nVidia. It’s simply that their software isn’t where it should be. They dedicate more for the RT to function correctly.

CPU chiplet and GPU chiplet should not be viewed in the same or a similar way imo, there’s cons to applying the chiplet design for a GPU and at best what it does it reduce cost to make a GPU these days.

What helps in one case is that GPUs aren’t so sensitive to latency (RT is), which can’t be said for the CPUs
As it stands, the CU continues to evolve to look more and more like Ampere's SM, and RDNA 3 isn't delivering on the perf-per-watt of a full node shrink. But it still feels like there is meat on the bone of the chiplet design. Really hoping this pays off.
Is it really like Ampere? if so, in what way?


The Matrix stuff, fwiw, is only an instruction addition. They have the Matrix in CDNA, the RDNA has none of that. So I’m not sure if that’s what you mean.


If you mean the FP32, it is doing a dual issue FP32, AMD likely leveraged this to add the instruction.

But RDNA3 doesn’t have actual Matrix units in-hardware. Afaik.
 
I think TOTK will launch day 1 with Drake support, but I'm almost certain the Drake Switch will come out before it.

Two words:

Golden Week.

If Nintendo wants a H1 launch and it's slated for CY2023 Q2, that means an April launch if it's not a March one. As others have pointed out, special edition consoles lately have come out two weeks BEFORE the game they're attached to. Launching two weeks before TOTK buts the Drake Switch in late April, but importantly, BEFORE Golden Week.
March, 23, 2023 was actually the best date to release the Switch 2 before TotK received a release date.
 
Last edited:
0
Please read this staff post before posting.

Furthermore, according to this follow-up post, all off-topic chat will be moderated.
Last edited:


Back
Top Bottom