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I think Nintendo has some interest in moving 3D Mario forward but maybe your cynicism will prevail
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StarTopic Future Nintendo Hardware & Technology Speculation & Discussion |ST| (Read the staff posts before commenting!)
- Thread starter Dakhil
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I think they can do that without exclusivity.
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Has a couple of games.
LiC
Member
People are really in this thread asking for Mario + Realistic Deer in 4K to not be playable on the current Switch. Pure tech fetishism for the sake of it. Nintendo can move the 3D Mario series forward without exclusivity to new hardware, because advances in 3D Mario come from gameplay innovation, not the rendering engine.
mjayer
Bob-omb
What I'm trying to point out is that there is a difference between technical specs of what they say the machine can and will do and what they are pushing as the marketing message for the machine. They just did not push pixel numbers in any marketing for the Series S.
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that doesn’t mean that the series S is a 4K Console.
the mario team playing around with ray tracing for gameplay would be fun.
LiC
Member
It's true that Sunshine's scope and polish wouldn't have been possible on the N64 (though that's not the same thing as saying Sunshine couldn't have been made as an N64 game), but there will never be a jump in hardware capabilities comparable to N64-GameCube again. N64 was primitive and GameCube was modern. Everything since then has just been an iteration.
I doubt the water based mechanics could have been anywhere near as well realized. Which is a big part of the game. An N64 port would have been butchered imo.
I also think there are gameplay possibilities on current gen consoles and Drake that wouldn’t scale well down to the previous consoles. All the insane simulation going on in flight sim is one concrete example.
I don’t know how a massively more powerful cpu could reinvent a Mario game, but I’m sure EPD would figure it out.
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How is it tech fetishism to want games to actually make full use of this enormous leap in power? I want to see something that wouldn't have been possible at all on Nintendo Switch. It's an overused comparison, but I'd like to see something like Breath of the Wild, which was not possible on Wii.
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Technically, everything is possible if you have realistic expectations.
1 frame every 4 minutes.
Crashing.
The works.
1 frame every 4 minutes.
Crashing.
The works.
Concernt
Optimism is non-negotiable
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I mean, if you do the math, 1440p is still a ways away from 4K in sheer pixel count. If we assume 12 (as in Teraflops) is fine for 4K, and assume that pixels scale with power, then 1440p lands around the 5.5TF area, and 1080p around the 3TF area, with the Series S somewhere between those. It's not as capable at 1440p as Series X is at 4K, but it's more capable at 1080p than Series X is at 4K.
Pixel counts are the product of both dimensions, and 2160*3840 is a BIG number, even next to 1440*2560.
LiC
Member
Not an "N64 port" of Sunshine. Sunshine, being developed as an N64 game. It would have functioned very differently, but it would have been in line with the expectations of what games were like at the time. The gameplay elements that made Sunshine what it was would have been possible, just at the level of fidelity/simulation expected of N64 games.
And again, I agree that in that case, the jump in hardware basically provided the means to fully realize new gameplay concepts. The N64-GameCube transition changed that aforementioned expectation, because now you had things like physics engines and programmable shaders, in addition to the greatly expanded resource limits including a gigantic increase in storage space. But nothing like that jump will ever happen again between hardware generations.
Sure it was.
Concernt
Optimism is non-negotiable
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I don't know, sounds debatable.
I think people are definitely overstating the importance of power to gameplay. Mario 64 started out on SNES, after all. Mario Galaxy could have been faithfully translated to N64 with similar enough gameplay but absolutely crushed graphics. N64 is just on the border between "you could demake a game for this with the same gameplay" and "you could demake a game for this, but it would have to be totally overhauled with core mechanics removed".
That said, I think Breath of the Wild would have been a bridge too far for the poor Wii, we simply don't have evidence of games of that scale, and the thing with BOTW is the hugely increased RAM, faster GPU and CPU compared to the Wii is what ENABLES a lot of its CORE mechanics, like the persistent state of the world, the physics, the wind and weather, etc. While Nintendo made poor use of it, Wii U was definitely a case of a console so much more powerful it opened up new gameplay opportunities.
But Wii U something like 10x as powerful as Wii, Drake is "only" 3-6x powerful, we won't see quite the same "generation defining" leaps like BOTW or Sunshine. I think the focus will be mainly on having it run Switch games better, with every game they can conceivably squeeze onto the original Switch going to both for years to come, until Switch becomes too outdated to function, like the 3DS and Wii U's security features being too weak for modern payment methods or the DS too old to support modern modems.
That’s ridiculous imo, there’s no way.
there is no way the n64 would do Galaxy’s physics justice imo.
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Spork4000
Tektite
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Yeah, that’s what I meant when I said “everyone who can divide was skeptical,” but I didn’t type it all out.
Kise Ryota
Bob-omb
I believe most first party games for Drake (if not all) will be cross-gen. That's better for transitioning between hardwares. No shortages of software for those with the older hardware (and Iwata talked exactly about this in 2014).
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D
Deleted member 1324
Guest
That's not really how modern engines or modern business thinking with return on investments work though. As you've seen with Switch and certain third party titles like The Witcher 3, DOOM, Wolfenstein II, DOOM Eternal, NieR Automata and No Mans Sky - absolutely every game can be scaled back to run on lower powered (or even prior generation) level hardware. If it can't be then whole assets or effects can be remade or redone to work on the lower powered device if there's a budget to do so.
With current info I foresee Nintendo marketing this device as yet another part of the current Switch family and as the premium level device for people who value the best possible visuals, image quality and stable framerates priced at $399. For the first 2-3 years of the devices life I expect EVERY first party game to also run on the original Switch then we'll see either another line of console entirely or simply a 'Switch 2'. I also expect it to launch with Tears of the Kingdom next May.
I do know that the new device is the exact same size and supports all the same joycons and peripherals as the original Switch. It was seen (at least at the time I got the info) as another part of the current Switch line up and not a 'next generation' Switch system. Of course I got that info in the summer and things can change based on chip availability and ongoing shifting strategies etc.
RealUncleNintendo
Chain Chomp
Anyone think there is a chance of a teaser (this year) for the new console/ successor that will be fully revealed the following year?
don't think they'll do a teaser this time. just announce they'll have a special presentation for upcoming hardware
RealUncleNintendo
Chain Chomp
Yea I can’t remember but I think the switch (nx) was announced in a similar aspect. That being a presentation was announced slated for a few months later.
Imo, no.
RealUncleNintendo
Chain Chomp
Just so much smoke and speculation but I guess they Will reveal it whenever they want. Nintendo always beats to its own drum. But even a tease at the game awards could work to drum up hype for next year reveal.
The amount of speculation has absolutely zero bearing on announce timing lol.
And there isn’t that much smoke, imo.
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There’s never any smoke. This is all a lie. Pack it up folks, show’s over.
mariodk18
Install Base Forum Namer
After the past few weeks in the Seattle area, I’m good on smoke for a while, thank you.
ShaunSwitch
Moblin
I agree with this with the exception that they aren't dropping yet another switch in 2-3 years that has another leap in performance. The gap between the drake and the supposed new chip, let's call it Atlan, wouldn't be very large in comparison to the move from erista to Drake.
It would also be a bad move for developers, they have been told to develop for drake so their work in progress titles are being optimised for a78c and ampere and then potentially mid way through their project Nintendo drops a new chip with another new architecture. It's not enough time for devs to settle into the new hardware. It would also be too short of a time frame to get a good return on investment for the development of this chip.
If the plan was for drake to be a short term stop gap they would have just shrunk mariko again and boosted GPU cores.
IMO Drake is marketed as the best way to play switch games for two years and then Nintendo just stops releasing games for tx1 based devices and announces drake to be the only model they are manufacturing and the future of the platform.
OP
OP
And of course, how Nintendo presents the new hardware to third party developers isn't necessarily how Nintendo's going to present the new hardware to consumers.
RealUncleNintendo
Chain Chomp
LiC
Member
The physics engine (or at least, the extent of it) in BotW is a good example of something that new hardware enabled. And things like that are and will continue to be made possible -- or at least expanded in scope -- by new hardware. But that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about gameplay concepts that can move a franchise like 3D Mario forward. "Lots of physics objects" is not a new gameplay concept, and the fact that Link has momentum and ragdolls around in BotW isn't what makes the game what it is.
D
Deleted member 1324
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Definitely, especially considering the info will be almost a year old when TotK launches.
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I know this back-and-forth on positioning has happened countless times before... but here's my two cents. Even if Nintendo isn’t trying to pull off some long term ‘iterative successor’ model like some speculated or hoped, I cannot see this device being anything other than a successor. And by successor, I mean a device meant to replace the current Switch down the line, not a hard generational cut-off (Sony and Microsoft aren't even willing to pull that move). Unless we're saying that this new hardware is only going to be sold for a scant few years, the alternative would imply that the current Switch model is expected to be marketed and selling for another 6(+) years. If sales aren't already slowing down, they probably will later into 2023 - I'd be surprised if current Switch had a pulse by 2028.
Them being told that it's 'part of the current Switch line up' does not necessarily mean 'not a next generation Switch system' - the two statements need not be mutually exclusive. Switch 2, if largely marketed alongside the current Switch for another 24-48 months, would absolutely meet the requirements of being both. All the peripheral compatibility stuff just sounds like a sensible way to pass the baton when they’re not trying to innovate on the feature set and design as drastically. Sony didn't have to create the DualSense, or could have fully supported DualShock. Xbox One controllers work on Series X, etc.
I do wonder if they are quite so agile or flexible that something they propagated to developers in June-Augst (?) 2022 would have been invalidated by now. And as said above, that statement may only mean to them 'we aren't going to stop marketing the existing Switch, consider that when developing your new title'.
D
Deleted member 1324
Guest
I agree, just passing on what I heard.
If they decide to make it their 'next gen' system all they would have to do is call it 'Switch 2' instead of 'Switch Pro/X/4k' etc. Nintendo like to have a unique selling point for a new generation though so it would need something on top of it being a hybrid console which was the Switch USP.
If they really see this as a massive leap in tech and want to differentiate it from other Switch variants I do wonder if they would call it something totally different despite the Switch brand being so strong. It doesn't make any sense though... which is why it's something Nintendo would do.
There is another possibility which is something I rarely say because it generates toxicity. This device could be far weaker than we expect which would make sense with it being part of the current Switch line up and then saving the giant leap in tech for the full next gen successor around Winter '25. Theoretically I have no idea how 'weak' they could make it by finding the sweet spot of targeting 4k DLSS and a huge battery life from the off.
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I mean I personally set my expectations of it being relatively weak or limited in it's purpose (Switch games in 4K) a while back, but this thread has done it's damnedest to make the point that it's improbable with what’s been seen in the NVN2 leak. I'll be happy enough with either outcome, but it would be an absolute joy to have something on the level of Elden Ring running flawlessly in handheld - or better yet a TotK that's been spruced up for the new tech.
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Gotdatmoneyy
Boo
We were all expecting a much weaker chip until the Nvidia leak. Most of the excitement that's been born is because a huge data breach basically said "you guys arguing between 4, 6 or 8 shader units are all incorrect, it's actually 12".
Basically, unless that leak is just plain wrong and the 8 A78 cores is also being seriously misinterpreted, even my lowest original estimate are still met pretty damn easily. I original though something like 6 A78s at 1.2GHz and 768 shader cores at 768Mhz for 1.18 TFlops docked was by far the best case scenario and unlikely. It would be really hard for me to be let down by this device
They'd have to cancel it lol.
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My Tulpa
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As a PC gamer, new hardware is purchased to play games with better graphics IQ and better performance.
You are still playing the same kind of games you were 7 years ago. The new games still run on 7 year old hardware. All interesting games!
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Original expectations was lower even when you remember back, CPU cores like 4 A75 or 76, 4-6SM, with this being “maybe pascal but if Nintendo is nice enough, Turing for DLSS, are they gonna even use this??” type of commentary. 64-bit memory but more of it, LPDDR4X or 5 memory.
That’s what the expectation was set to.
Then we had info it likely being Ampere-based because of job listings and Nvidia Tegra ORIN being thrown into the fray, the CPU config was raised to A78 but this 4b+4L, so A55 was on the table. LPDDR5 memory because ORIN had it. But still 64-bit.
Then it was raised further due to the Nvidia breach that indicates it is Ampere-based, has 12 SMs, has a 128-bit interface. So, even faster with LPDDR5. However, CPU expectations were set to 6 big cores now, and maybe 2 little cores, or 4b+4L, or just 6 cores, or a few I saw had it at 4 cores.
And then the September Linux commit implied 8 cores, and it’s likely the A78 because it already exists in that configuration.
So each and every time, the expectation has been surpassed. A ride for the ages. While WUST was about taking down expectations, SUST (Switch’s Ultimate Successor Thread) was about having those expectations blown out of the water.
Edit: how can I forget? The FDE, dedicated decompression engine for games to make use of, frees up CPU cycles and may imply a faster storage. But even if it doesn’t use 1GB/s, the FDE is a nice addition.
That’s what the expectation was set to.
Then we had info it likely being Ampere-based because of job listings and Nvidia Tegra ORIN being thrown into the fray, the CPU config was raised to A78 but this 4b+4L, so A55 was on the table. LPDDR5 memory because ORIN had it. But still 64-bit.
Then it was raised further due to the Nvidia breach that indicates it is Ampere-based, has 12 SMs, has a 128-bit interface. So, even faster with LPDDR5. However, CPU expectations were set to 6 big cores now, and maybe 2 little cores, or 4b+4L, or just 6 cores, or a few I saw had it at 4 cores.
And then the September Linux commit implied 8 cores, and it’s likely the A78 because it already exists in that configuration.
So each and every time, the expectation has been surpassed. A ride for the ages. While WUST was about taking down expectations, SUST (Switch’s Ultimate Successor Thread) was about having those expectations blown out of the water.
Edit: how can I forget? The FDE, dedicated decompression engine for games to make use of, frees up CPU cycles and may imply a faster storage. But even if it doesn’t use 1GB/s, the FDE is a nice addition.
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Indeed, @ReddDreadtheLead is right, everything we learn about this new SoC, even it being a custom design no less, exceeded our low expectations. I know I came into this thread a year or so ago expecting an Xavier SoC variant. And if the goal was an iteration on Switch, IMO, an Xavier variant would have made a lot more sense. The only potential major disappointments left at this point are are clock speeds, I/O and maybe battery life.
I mean… have we not been talking about how Drake is looking to be the biggest leap in hardware from a prior hardware cycle since the N64-GameCube transition rather frequently ITT?
LiC
Member
All generational leaps have yielded diminishing returns since N64 to GameCube, so even if that were true of the upcoming jump, it wouldn't be comparable in practical impact on games. But I think Wii to Wii U will still beat it out, both in terms of practical difference (most obvious in going from SD to HD) and even raw numbers (such as going from 80 MB of RAM to 1 GB available for games).
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But does that leap improve what developers are capable of making on the same level? I feel like technology is only really being challenged with seamless open worlds / increases in world scale.
Kise Ryota
Bob-omb
Was there any solid leak (and by solid I mean kinda like the Nvidia hack in march) about potential SoC's that Nvidia would be working on for Nintendo before the T239? I never believed on a Switch Pro, and because the pandemic I was sure Nintendo would only release a Switch 2 from 2023 forward, so I never read any rumor about it.
I'm wondering if they had anything before and it got upgraded to the T239.
I'm wondering if they had anything before and it got upgraded to the T239.
nothing. there was hearsay about an overclocked TX1, but it was just that, nothing solid
TonyBaduy
Moblin
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Drake to be made on 8nm and release after the PS6/Xbox Next release, you heard it here first folks!
D
Deleted member 887
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There are a couple ways to think of a generational leap. The "classic" definition is 6x-8x performance. This somewhat depends on clocks, but Drake is certainly in that ballpark. The other way to think of generational leap is "major new feature afforded by new architecture." Drake is also in that realm, with it's RT and Tensor cores.
When it comes to what innovations are possible - well, that's hard to predict, because by definition innovation is surprising. But in the case of Nintendo, as powerful as Drake is, it's still behind other consoles due to being a handheld. It will be Nintendo's first stab at that level of power, and god knows what they will do with it, but it's not unexplored territory for the industry.
In terms of other things that are challenges to the industry - NPC AI remains a constant are for improvement, as does procedural generation.
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