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StarTopic Future Nintendo Hardware & Technology Speculation & Discussion |ST| (Read the staff posts before commenting!)

not 100% relevant, but it does get the "imagine" juices flowing

Tower of Fantasy is getting ray tracing support. I knew it was getting DLSS3, but I wasn't expecting RT. and this game is animu-as-fuck-boi, so it's an interesting case of how RT can work with such styles (even though we know there was never a problem)


… no problem with anime, but this to me looks really clean and steryle and ugly … the RTX cant improve this to me.
everything looks so static…

RTX can be great, irrelevant of artstyle, its not just for realism, thats for shure. But just tech and resolution does not make a good looking game.
 
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I just want RTX pikmin and RTX Luigi’s mansion

And xenoblde
And pokemon


And maybe Mario kart







And tears of the kingdom
I still believe Zelda will get RT support in some way. same with Pikmin

Pokemon, I wish,, but maybe with the next game. but that's asking GF to do a lot of progressing
 
I dug up the actual quote, what I wrote earlier was somewhat badly remembered. He is referencing the game he is working on, using Nanite.

I know you clarified, but just to be super clear, I was referring to my project. I'm sure plenty of devs don't need that much.

That being said, if you're using Nanite, I imagine you're doing it to render high fidelity geometry, and if that is the case, your going to need ample speed to transfer that data, data which scale proportionately with resolution.
 
I just want RTX pikmin and RTX Luigi’s mansion

And xenoblde
And pokemon


And maybe Mario kart







And tears of the kingdom
Gf might start to use ray tracing in the switch 3, and it will tank fps so much that it will be barely usable.


Please make mp4 with rt on the switch 2 retro ok thx
 
Gf might start to use ray tracing in the switch 3, and it will tank fps so much that it will be barely usable
FPS being tanked so much the game is barely playable was a staple throughout the entire 3DS lifespan of Pokemon games.
 
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Sorry if this was talked about but do we think nintendo with this new console will offer more storage in some way (like the steam deck with options or just like 256gb out right). I just think that with all of the games out there there should be more storage, im struggling out here with a 64gb sd card.
 
Sorry if this was talked about but do we think nintendo with this new console will offer more storage in some way (like the steam deck with options or just like 256gb out right). I just think that with all of the games out there there should be more storage, im struggling out here with a 64gb sd card.
I expect 128GB simply because it's more than the oled switch and Drake will cost more.

But if you're struggling with a 64GB card, just move up to a larger one. A 256GB SD card can cost lower that a full priced game most of the time in America
 
Sorry if this was talked about but do we think nintendo with this new console will offer more storage in some way (like the steam deck with options or just like 256gb out right). I just think that with all of the games out there there should be more storage, im struggling out here with a 64gb sd card.
Probably but to my knowledge there's not evidence of that. Thraktor reported yesterday evidence that there could be dedicated hardware for a File Decompression Engine, which would also help with storage. II don't see Nintendo upgrading to an SSD since a MicroSD card won't be able to keep up with the read speeds, but having larger onboard storage is on the table considering Nintendo, even early on, started bundling MicroSD cards with the console. Nintendo also has branded MicroSD cards up to 128GB.

But the comparison of storage needs between Switch and SteamDeck isn't really apt, since SteamDeck downloads PC games with PC textures and assets. In that case there's many games that exceed 100GB on their own, while the largest Switch game to my knowledge is NBA 2K21 at 39.4 GB.
 
Probably but to my knowledge there's not evidence of that. Thraktor reported yesterday evidence that there could be dedicated hardware for a File Decompression Engine, which would also help with storage. II don't see Nintendo upgrading to an SSD since a MicroSD card won't be able to keep up with the read speeds, but having larger onboard storage is on the table considering Nintendo, even early on, started bundling MicroSD cards with the console. Nintendo also has branded MicroSD cards up to 128GB.

But the comparison of storage needs between Switch and SteamDeck isn't really apt, since SteamDeck downloads PC games with PC textures and assets. In that case there's many games that exceed 100GB on their own, while the largest Switch game to my knowledge is NBA 2K21 at 39.4 GB.
Theoretically if the FDE can decompress as fast as it reads, that would increase throughput from storage to ram. Imagine if you can read a 100mb file and decompress it to 300mb at the same time, that would be a 3x increase in throughput as long as the ram can support it. Not sure if textures and models can go up to 300% compression ratio though. Modern lossless compression does exists like zstd which is currently being use in NSZ file format.

Historically, nintendo had graphic decompression chip on the SNES like the S-DD1 and SPC7110 which gave us PS1 quality 2d games like Tengai Makyou Zero, Street Fighter Alpha/Zero, and the original Star Ocean.
 
Probably but to my knowledge there's not evidence of that. Thraktor reported yesterday evidence that there could be dedicated hardware for a File Decompression Engine, which would also help with storage.
I don’t think it will, actually. Most games are heavily compressed as is, because they’re constrained by the relatively limited storage created by game cards. It’s just how much performance is lost without hardware accelerated decompression

Even if games more aggressively compress data, native Drake games want UHD textures. That’s likely the driver for the FDE in fact, is just how BIG 4K textures are. Games will expand to fill their container, and the FDE won’t make games smaller it will just allow them to do more at the same size.
 
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I mentioned this elsewhere on Install Base, but Series S is basically the first non-Nintendo rebuttal of the idea that highly-performant cutting-edge hardware can continue to drive the industry forward, as that business model is basically like dancing on the edge of a knife and only serves hardware makers when they're at the top of the heap. Series S strikes a good balance for what it sets out to do, not highly-performant but still utilizing many of the design ideas of the Series X. While I'm not surprised there's grumbling from some devs, considering (as the article notes) Series S is grossly outselling the Series X at the moment, if they want software that makes them money, they're in no position for complaint.
If there is this requirement for 500mbps for asset streaming, what combination of cartridge, internal and external storage medium could realistically achieve that and be mass adopted by the consumer?

This is where I struggle to see Nintendo moving away from simple micro sdxc. If asset streaming is such a big deal then they need to be able to achieve it on internal storage, carts and removable storage.

UFS 2.1 is fine for internal but what about removable? Only options I can see that are cost effective is NVME and UFS Card but as far as I can see UFS Card is a dead format.

Carts, there really is nothing that can be cost effective and read at that speed.

I simply think they won't prioritise it. Cost effectiveness of storage options and simple user experience are more important to Nintendo I feel.
UFS Card has not seen much activity in the retail market, but it has begun to attract a lot of attention in the automotive market, among others, with the introduction of UFS Card 3.0, meaning that the manufacture of them is all but assured, even if not commonly sold at retail. I know some phone manufacturers are looking into UFS Card 3.0 due to its speed enabling bootable external storage on par with internal storage, meaning they can offer phone models with no internal storage and save on costs by offering small UFS Cards and leaving larger storage capacity to the consumer to upgrade to meet their own needs, but no one has gone ahead with that just yet.

And as for cartridges, ROM's theoretical read speeds are beyond anything else, so the ROM chips aren't the issue, it ultimately comes down to the I/O, the card reader and the means with which it extracts data, which are pretty much entirely within Nintendo's control to optimize in conjunction with Macronix as they need. And, as far as storage density, there is still room for these ROM chips to be manufactured on a smaller non-FinFET process node, which will inherently increase storage while maintaining similar costs to existing chips but with larger capacities. The ROM chips used in Game Cards were manufactured at 45-48nm at launch (and maybe still are), but they can go as low as 28nm without raising costs, meaning a potential 71% density improvement at the same price they're paying for the current chips at their current available storage sizes (and also meaning, if a game does not require more storage, an incredibly significant cost savings per Game Card). COVID slowed down such a transition to a smaller process node for the ROM chips but I expect should be ready to go for 2023, lest Macronix find its more-than-substantial business with Nintendo (a business manufacturing ROM chips for cartridges they've been reaping rewards from for at least 18 years since the DS) at risk while they look for a ROM manufacturer who can give them what they need.

In other words, there's nothing holding Nintendo back in this area except Nintendo, and I've yet to see any evidence of them getting in their own way regarding how this new hardware is being engineered.
I personally like UFS cards, as being based on the embedded UFS standard they're power efficient, and should be reasonably cheap to manufacture (as they can leverage the economies of scale of eUFS production). Current cards only go to 550MB/s, but the UFS Card 3.0 spec supports 1200MB/s, and as it's based on a single-lane version of the existing embedded UFS 3 interface, it should be achievable to scale up manufacturing relatively quickly.

Anything other than plain old UHS-I microSD would require Nintendo to basically drive adoption of the standard themselves, working with manufacturers to make sure a range of capacities are available at a reasonable price at launch. They're likely big enough to do so (Nintendo ship far more Switch units a year than the entire camera industry ship dedicated cameras), but I'm not sure if there'll be a willingness to do that.
It's all going to depend on what Nintendo wants to do. They could, in fact, opt for microSD as storage only and force games to be run from internal storage as the only way around this issue entirely, but we're not talking about Vita memory cards here, it's a inexpensive industry standard that benefits from economies of scale as you suggest, driving retail adoption of an industry standard right before it comes into its own (since it will see adoption in non-retail settings at the VERY least) should not be much of a herculean effort, especially when we're talking about a standard with better speeds and cost per GB than what has come before.
Qhile that is true, external storage cards is basically a requirement for a dedicated camera. I reckon a large percentage of switch users get by with the onboard storage. I don't know the percentage, but I bet Nintendo does.
I'd bet SanDisk does too, considering they keep releasing Nintendo-licensed microSD cards at greater and greater capacities. Almost makes you think they're making a ton of money off of them. And they'd make a good partner to help drive retail adoption of UFS Cards for Drake, if they opt to go that route.
 
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Thanks everyone for your input on the storage side of things. I guess all it really comes down to is if there is a will to push a new standard.

Ultimately the industry cannot stay with micro sd forever, if there is a device that can push a new storage standard, it's the switch. It's just down to the memory industry and Nintendo to move forward with a new standard, and it really is about time. My hesitation comes from the memory industry milking the microsdxc standard.

I agree UFS Card would probably be the best option for external, it seems pretty decent price wise despite low adoption rates so if it goes into mass production for the switch I can see it being priced competitively vs things like NVME drives.
 
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I really don’t want to install and uninstall games on the main storage. If it’s mandatory to install games on the main storage because Drake uses MicroSD cards then it’s going to be a lot of wear and tear on the storage
 
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not 100% relevant, but it does get the "imagine" juices flowing

Tower of Fantasy is getting ray tracing support. I knew it was getting DLSS3, but I wasn't expecting RT. and this game is animu-as-fuck-boi, so it's an interesting case of how RT can work with such styles (even though we know there was never a problem)


You mean the game that stole genshin impact's positive reviews on google play and used bots to spam them on their own game's review page?

Or that one game that had a group of hackers exploit the inventory system and made players lose their items - an issue that the company tried to sweep under the rug instead of acknowledging it?

Or the game that stole an artist's animation idea/flow nearly entirely for their own ad whilst not even crediting the original creator?

I could simply say "gacha lol skip" but this game goes beyond even genshin, fgo etc... on being despicable.
They could add lifelike AI for all I care and I still wouldn't play it.
 
I can understand this kind of complaint coming from a switch developer working on a heavy title as the console's CPU and memory are way below standard for current and even past gen's (Xbox one/PS4) hardware.
But the series S? the GPU alone on that console is better than the average PC gamer's*

*I know the steam hardware survey isn't that reliable as many people opt out of it - realistically speaking, considering things like pricing of GPUs nowadays and how most PC users won't upgrade theirs before a couple years, that average is possibly even lower (Like a 1050ti or 1650). Hell, I remember back just a couple years ago (like ~2017) the average gpu on that survey was the GTX 750 iirc and the second one was like what? an intel iGPU...

Being a developer, I can understand things like burnout and frustrating salaries that many gamedevs struggle with and how better hardware can help alleviate this issue as you won't have to optimize as much.
One thing that I learned quickly after getting a job was that if a software isn't optimized enough (i.e not quite dipping below 26/50 FPS but not consistently hitting that either) it's likely because the person who worked on it isn't being paid enough to actually care.

When capitalism doesn't (realistically) reward effort why bother? you're not getting a raise for those 3-4 frames anyways.
 
So what feature hasn’t been discussed? missing for a device like this.

I think we exhausted the discussion about what the silicon can have.

Has a way of dealing with compressed data on the fly, has a very big cpu upgrade and features for it, has a very modern GPU with advanced feature sets, what feature is actually missing here?

Maybe I’m drawing a blank but I guess we have to move to talking about the rest of the console… and I already brought up newer Bluetooth and newer Wifi.



I guess… internal storage?



How good is Nvidia’s decompression btw?
 
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So what feature hasn’t been discussed? missing for a device like this.

I think we exhausted the discussion about what the silicon can have.

Has a way of dealing with compressed data on the fly, has a very big cpu upgrade and features for it, has a very modern GPU with advanced feature sets, what feature is actually missing here?

Maybe I’m drawing a blank but I guess we have to move to talking about the rest of the console… and I already brought up newer Bluetooth and newer Wifi.



I guess… internal storage?



How good is Nvidia’s decompression btw?
Not really a feature but the battery life itself. By of course, making assumptions on what the capacity could possibly be and peak current.
I think that nintendo definitely doesn't skimp on batteries when it comes to their portables. The new 3ds itself (base model) has a ~1700mAh battery.
I know this may not sound like a lot considering the smartphone market perspective, when even in 2015 many (cheap) phones were above the 2000mAh range. However, if you've seen the size of a base 3ds battery, you know how it's smaller than most of these phones.

The switch's ~4300mAh battery isn't that big either (as in, the unit itself) specially for it's capacity.

I'd like to propose a discussion on clock speeds x peak current on drake assuming a range between 4300 and 6000mAh for the battery (which imo is the reasonable range to be expected on a new switch).
 
So what feature hasn’t been discussed? missing for a device like this.

I think we exhausted the discussion about what the silicon can have.

Has a way of dealing with compressed data on the fly, has a very big cpu upgrade and features for it, has a very modern GPU with advanced feature sets, what feature is actually missing here?

We haven't confirmed that Drake has an HDA. That seems highly likely but not confirmed - that would allow hardware decoding of compressed audio. Does the GPU support sampler feedback? I'm unclear if this comes for "free" with Ampere, or not, and what level of support Nintendo needs to provide in the API.

Fundamentally, it's a modern chip, built on a modern GPU/CPU design, customized for Nintendo's use. Architecturally, it's hard to beat.

Maybe I’m drawing a blank but I guess we have to move to talking about the rest of the console… and I already brought up newer Bluetooth and newer Wifi.
@Pokemaniac has convinced me that I want a 1080p screen. I won't consider it a failure if it doesn't, but I see the value. Yes, would love connectivity improvements.

I guess… internal storage?
Would love to see how they're approaching storage in general. PS5 just made a blazingly fast SSD. Microsoft used a slower SSD and some other hardware tricks to increase IO performance. The FDE is an indication that Hovi is really thinking about these things, so curious what the final stack will look like.

How good is Nvidia’s decompression btw?
The FDE is new hardware, so it's hard to say, but their CUDA implementations are pretty excellent.

As for the rest of the hardware - would love to see some rethinking on the Joy-Cons. The short sticks are hard to move short distances, and I know a lot of us are TV players with pro controllers, I personally am not. Would love it if Nintendo took this moment to make radically different (though rail compatible) joy-cons. While I rarely play games where it matters, I know a contingent would really like analogue triggers. Touch interfaces on the joy-cons also seem like smart moves - right now touch screen controls in handheld mode usually turn into motion controls, but it's not a perfect match.

Open questions about a microphone or camera setup. I've dug through the Linux drivers and it's unclear to me how much camera support is left from Orin in Drake. Will Nintendo throw a new control scheme in the mix?

I suspect that whatever else Nintendo does this iteration will be conservative, as the SOC clearly isn't.
 
I would love to see what they could do in the AR space now with more power
It was impressive what they accomplished on 3DS
Perhaps some spatial stuff and eliminate the need for AR cards.
Even if they kept the cards I think they could vastly improve on the experience now
 
I would love to see what they could do in the AR space now with more power
It was impressive what they accomplished on 3DS
Perhaps some spatial stuff and eliminate the need for AR cards.
Even if they kept the cards I think they could vastly improve on the experience now
It’s not even about raw power, machine learning + AR is a match made in heaven. Tensor cores are great for dlss but that’s not the only potential use for them.
 
ok? I know about all of that and I never said "play the game"
I didn't explicitly say "don't play the game" either.
shrug-emoji.gif

Just a heads up for anyone who might have been interested in it.
 
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Not really a feature but the battery life itself. By of course, making assumptions on what the capacity could possibly be and peak current.
I think that nintendo definitely doesn't skimp on batteries when it comes to their portables. The new 3ds itself (base model) has a ~1700mAh battery.
I know this may not sound like a lot considering the smartphone market perspective, when even in 2015 many (cheap) phones were above the 2000mAh range. However, if you've seen the size of a base 3ds battery, you know how it's smaller than most of these phones.

The switch's ~4300mAh battery isn't that big either (as in, the unit itself) specially for it's capacity.

I'd like to propose a discussion on clock speeds x peak current on drake assuming a range between 4300 and 6000mAh for the battery (which imo is the reasonable range to be expected on a new switch).
I think a 5000mAh battery is possible if they see it, or if they see the current one as fine we can expect that too.

We haven't confirmed that Drake has an HDA. That seems highly likely but not confirmed - that would allow hardware decoding of compressed audio. Does the GPU support sampler feedback? I'm unclear if this comes for "free" with Ampere, or not, and what level of support Nintendo needs to provide in the API.

Fundamentally, it's a modern chip, built on a modern GPU/CPU design, customized for Nintendo's use. Architecturally, it's hard to beat.

VRS, Sampler Feedback, Mesh Shaders, HDR “for free”, etc are hardware based features. Also, what’s HDA? The High-Definition Audio I mentioned previously?


It probably does have it since it is part of the audio engine for the system and can carry over. Whether they’ll use it to the fullest is up to anyone’s guess and it’s an industry standard anyway. But that doesn’t confirm 100%.

@Pokemaniac has convinced me that I want a 1080p screen. I won't consider it a failure if it doesn't, but I see the value. Yes, would love connectivity improvements.
I will not be convinced 😛, there is a benefit in having a native 720 or 540 to 720 via DLSS in a light way than to have 1080p or 720 to 1080p with DLSS.

If in portable mode, it is 720p, and it increases the performance by twice the clock speeds, it’ll be able to do around 1080p (720p->1080p needs 2.25x performance uplift). It’s from 1080p that it does DLSS to whatever target res the dev wants. The game is still rendering internally from 1080p, that’s the true resolution.

Yes the game to the end user is 1440p or 2160p, and looks like some 9x increase, but the game isn’t doing 9x the pixels. It’s doing a lot less than that.


There’s no real benefit, to me, for going above 720p for portable mode other than maybe VRR.

We focus a lot in this thread about switch docked performance but completely forget that, whether intentional or not, that in portable mode it’ll be at half of that performance.


For comparison sake, lest assume the Series S is the version games get ported from. So, it’s a 4TFLOP machine, Drake at best would be 3.2TFLOP docked and 1.6 in portable mode. If the Series S has the game at 1080p, Drake wouldn’t be doing the same thing internally. It’ll have to have other concessions done for it.

It would need to make some cut backs too due to having a lower memory bandwidth.

So, it can do say, 720p portable, and docked it doubles the performance and that can take it to 1080p or close enough, 1018p.

Of course Drake will have levels of optimization for it, but I don’t agree with the notion that 720 to 2160 is weird because the machine isn’t doing that to begin with. It’s hitting lower and using DLSS make the difference.

I’m using this methodology here as the system is stronger and devs take less opportunities to optimize when it’s stronger.

Would love to see how they're approaching storage in general. PS5 just made a blazingly fast SSD. Microsoft used a slower SSD and some other hardware tricks to increase IO performance. The FDE is an indication that Hovi is really thinking about these things, so curious what the final stack will look like.


The FDE is new hardware, so it's hard to say, but their CUDA implementations are pretty excellent.
While true, it could be based on their existing technology.

I think they’ll go with the Sony method of a hardware based method, but rely on something that exists like UFS maybe. Or just rely on microSD. Hard to say.

XBox uses the Velocity Architecture and it is limited to 100GB iirc
As for the rest of the hardware - would love to see some rethinking on the Joy-Cons. The short sticks are hard to move short distances, and I know a lot of us are TV players with pro controllers, I personally am not. Would love it if Nintendo took this moment to make radically different (though rail compatible) joy-cons. While I rarely play games where it matters, I know a contingent would really like analogue triggers. Touch interfaces on the joy-cons also seem like smart moves - right now touch screen controls in handheld mode usually turn into motion controls, but it's not a perfect match.

Open questions about a microphone or camera setup. I've dug through the Linux drivers and it's unclear to me how much camera support is left from Orin in Drake. Will Nintendo throw a new control scheme in the mix?

I suspect that whatever else Nintendo does this iteration will be conservative, as the SOC clearly isn't.
I also suspect that, more of refinement and building on the Switch than remixing it.


If Drake has a PVA, that can actually help it for the image, but the PVA would help with the DLSS believe it or not. Due to being a sort of OFA, sorta.
 
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I expect 128GB simply because it's more than the oled switch and Drake will cost more.

But if you're struggling with a 64GB card, just move up to a larger one. A 256GB SD card can cost lower that a full priced game most of the time in America
A $60 game is more comparable to a 512GB card now. But even for the person who doesn't plan on going digital in a big way, it's hard to recommend bothering with something less than 128 in the $10-15 range.
I can understand this kind of complaint coming from a switch developer working on a heavy title as the console's CPU and memory are way below standard for current and even past gen's (Xbox one/PS4) hardware.
But the series S? the GPU alone on that console is better than the average PC gamer's*
The article briefly mentions "memory constraints" being the issue, which... it'd really have to be, considering the CPU is essentially the same and by design you're supposed to work around the GPU difference by changing resolution. Still, a developer wanting to break the Series series from having total compatibility all around and losing half of their potential audience because they can't work around a few gigabytes difference in RAM... come on, guys.
 
Out of curiosity, how much is the component cost of the Bluetooth adapter/Wifi antenna from 2017? What kind of benefits could we see in modern tech that would cost the same after inflation?

Not saying I expect Nintendo to pay for the codec licensing to get better than SBC (wouldn't that be a dream), but is it reasonable to expect better wireless connectivity (on top of what I assume they'll physically adjust for the internal antennas)?
 
Out of curiosity, how much is the component cost of the Bluetooth adapter/Wifi antenna from 2017? What kind of benefits could we see in modern tech that would cost the same after inflation?

Not saying I expect Nintendo to pay for the codec licensing to get better than SBC (wouldn't that be a dream), but is it reasonable to expect better wireless connectivity (on top of what I assume they'll physically adjust for the internal antennas)?
I don’t think price is really an issue here.
The Lite uses the newer BT5 standard for example.

And that’s the cheapest meme er of the family.

The rest use BT4


As for audio codec, it seems like BT has something that reduces audio latency to 20-30ms rather than 100-200ms if I understand it right:

LE Audio that is built on top of the new 5.2 features. BT LE Audio was announced in January 2020 at CES by the Bluetooth SIG. Compared to regular Bluetooth Audio, Bluetooth Low Energy Audio makes lower battery consumption possible and creates a standardized way of transmitting audio over BT LE. Bluetooth LE Audio also allows one-to-many and many-to-one broadcasts, allowing multiple receivers from one source or one receiver for multiple sources, known as Auracast.[118][119] It uses a new LC3 codec. BLE Audio will also add support for hearing aids.[120] On July 12, 2022, the Bluetooth SIG announced the completion of Bluetooth LE Audio. The standard has a lower minimum latency claim of 20-30 ms vs Bluetooth Classic audio of 100-200 ms

So fingers crossed that they do use this and they do allow for us to use it with headphones/earbuds.
 
A $60 game is more comparable to a 512GB card now. But even for the person who doesn't plan on going digital in a big way, it's hard to recommend bothering with something less than 128 in the $10-15 range.

The article briefly mentions "memory constraints" being the issue, which... it'd really have to be, considering the CPU is essentially the same and by design you're supposed to work around the GPU difference by changing resolution. Still, a developer wanting to break the Series series from having total compatibility all around and losing half of their potential audience because they can't work around a few gigabytes difference in RAM... come on, guys.
The Series S is more memory constrained than it looks on paper. Moore's law has slowed down for RAM, and both consoles were designed around the idea that there wouldn't be a generational leap for memory performance. The PS5 solution was expensive, and brute force - cram as much expensive, high speed RAM as possible into the device, and then make a blazingly fast custom SSD to keep it fed, so that nothing needs to be preloaded and assets can be streamed on demand from disk

The Series S|X solution is more complicated. Yes, they use an SSD but it's only half as fast as the PS5. Then they have two pools of memory instead of one, an ultra fast game pool, and a much slower "system" pool. Their software architecture takes advantage of this, letting developers pick between three tiers. Along with some software magic, they can get IO throughput that is effectively comparable to the PS5, at a smaller cost per unit.

The Series S compromises this design on every level, however. The "fast" pool is slightly smaller, but is only half as fast as it is on Series X. The "slow" pool is tiny and is 90% slower on Series S than Series X. The slow pool is basically useless to games, and is eaten up almost entirely by the OS anyway. Series X effectively has 14GB of game useable RAM. Series S has 8GB, running at less than half the Series X speeds, forcing them to go to SSD all the time - without the PS5's blazing fast SSD to keep up

I think most dev houses would continue to support the Series S, they just want to stop having to, day and date.. Being allowed to, say, delay the Series S versions instead of requiring them day 1, then farm out the port to a partner studio, leaving the main development team to focus on two consoles of similar power (PS5 XBSX) instead of three with wildly different levels.

I'm also fairly certain that there are strong numbers showing that Series X is more profitable. Series X gamers are almost definitely more likely to buy games at full price, and likely more of them. But the ulterior motive is to kill the Series S outright. Letting Series X have actual exclusives would sound the death knell for Series S, and devs know it. So does MS. For devs, they don't care. Let the S die, and MS find another way to hit that market niche, perhaps a GamePass branded digital only Series X, where MS takes a big cut on the hardware in order to make money on their subscription service which many devs see as competition anyway.
 
So what feature hasn’t been discussed? missing for a device like this.

I think we exhausted the discussion about what the silicon can have.

Has a way of dealing with compressed data on the fly, has a very big cpu upgrade and features for it, has a very modern GPU with advanced feature sets, what feature is actually missing here?

Maybe I’m drawing a blank but I guess we have to move to talking about the rest of the console… and I already brought up newer Bluetooth and newer Wifi.



I guess… internal storage?



How good is Nvidia’s decompression btw?
The madness that is Nintendo controllers could be a good topic, they'll probably launch it with controllers with new features, but what will those be?
 
The Series S is more memory constrained than it looks on paper. Moore's law has slowed down for RAM, and both consoles were designed around the idea that there wouldn't be a generational leap for memory performance. The PS5 solution was expensive, and brute force - cram as much expensive, high speed RAM as possible into the device, and then make a blazingly fast custom SSD to keep it fed, so that nothing needs to be preloaded and assets can be streamed on demand from disk

The Series S|X solution is more complicated. Yes, they use an SSD but it's only half as fast as the PS5. Then they have two pools of memory instead of one, an ultra fast game pool, and a much slower "system" pool. Their software architecture takes advantage of this, letting developers pick between three tiers. Along with some software magic, they can get IO throughput that is effectively comparable to the PS5, at a smaller cost per unit.

The Series S compromises this design on every level, however. The "fast" pool is slightly smaller, but is only half as fast as it is on Series X. The "slow" pool is tiny and is 90% slower on Series S than Series X. The slow pool is basically useless to games, and is eaten up almost entirely by the OS anyway. Series X effectively has 14GB of game useable RAM. Series S has 8GB, running at less than half the Series X speeds, forcing them to go to SSD all the time - without the PS5's blazing fast SSD to keep up

I think most dev houses would continue to support the Series S, they just want to stop having to, day and date.. Being allowed to, say, delay the Series S versions instead of requiring them day 1, then farm out the port to a partner studio, leaving the main development team to focus on two consoles of similar power (PS5 XBSX) instead of three with wildly different levels.

I'm also fairly certain that there are strong numbers showing that Series X is more profitable. Series X gamers are almost definitely more likely to buy games at full price, and likely more of them. But the ulterior motive is to kill the Series S outright. Letting Series X have actual exclusives would sound the death knell for Series S, and devs know it. So does MS. For devs, they don't care. Let the S die, and MS find another way to hit that market niche, perhaps a GamePass branded digital only Series X, where MS takes a big cut on the hardware in order to make money on their subscription service which many devs see as competition anyway.
While resetera mostly focused on teraflops, it was obvious since the day it was announced that memory would be the series s big handicap imo.
 
While resetera mostly focused on teraflops, it was obvious since the day it was announced that memory would be the series s big handicap imo.
With the most likely memory configuration on Super Nintendo Switch being 12GB, and leaks and rumours strongly implying the target will be 4K, even if that's only after DLSS, Series S could end up being on the back foot for everything except CPU power this gen. I think this will make Super Switch more likely to get ports than Switch was from Xbox One and PS4, it appears it's less like behind the curve and more like mingling somewhere in the middle.

I don't think it'll matter much, the bulk of memory usage is textures and models which, while not ideal, can be crushed into submission(I mean, Crysis managed to slip and fall onto Xbox 360, for better or worse. And its remaster on Switch). When your absolute highest end device (excluding PC) is limited to 14GB for games targeting 4K, 8 should be "fine" for 720-1440p. I don't think it matters in sales at all, I'd say Series S alone is probably going to exceed every Xbox One.

As oldpuck said, Moore's Law is slowing for RAM, but there's a lot more to it than that. Game development is just more scalable than it used to be. We've reached a bit of a ceiling as regards game complexity and asset quality. Breath of the Wild, the Witcher 3 and Skyrim targeted 1.5GB, 3.5GB and 0.5GB respectively, and games bigger or more complex than them just aren't that common. Very few games NEED more than 4, MAYBE 8GB of RAM to function, but that's a stretch. Steam Deck is a PC working with slower RAM and a much weaker APU, and the number of games it straight up cannot run are vanishingly small. That's the entry level for PC games, a handheld. I'm not saying those Devs are lazy, not one bit, but I just don't see a world where No Man's Sky runs on Switch but Gotham Knights 2 doesn't run on Xbox Series S. Development is more scalable than ever, Microsoft bet the farm on it and so far, has won that bet. I don't see that scalability going down, and the lowest rung of compatibility doesn't seem to be rising very fast, if anything it's slowing down with the amount of Gen8 games happily releasing on Switch alongside Gen9 ports.
 
So what feature hasn’t been discussed? missing for a device like this.

I think we exhausted the discussion about what the silicon can have.

Has a way of dealing with compressed data on the fly, has a very big cpu upgrade and features for it, has a very modern GPU with advanced feature sets, what feature is actually missing here?

Maybe I’m drawing a blank but I guess we have to move to talking about the rest of the console… and I already brought up newer Bluetooth and newer Wifi.



I guess… internal storage?



How good is Nvidia’s decompression btw?
HDMI and USB version (I'd bet on 2.0b and 3.2 Gen 1 respectively, but with 2.0 ports on the Dock, because I expect it to ship with the existing Dock with LAN Port)

Bluetooth and WiFi I really hope are upgraded but I doubt it for some reason, not any logical reasion, even Nintendo has upgraded the WiFi on every new console and nearly every new version.

The display? I expect the exact same panel as the OLED. Same for the kickstand, same hinges, new shape.

New ventilation seems obvious, but I doubt it'll be much different. Maybe a combination of the slim bottom vents on the OLED and the slim rear vents on the Lite.

The OS, probably the same OS.

As you said we've hashed out a LOT and speculated on nearly every feature, we're almost going in circles.

As for controllers, my honest expectation is 0 change whatsoever. It ships with Black Joy-Con with a silent upgrade to stick durability. No more, no less. If they so much as move the IR motion camera I will be shocked.
 
Speaking of memory, there's potentially an interesting dichotomy in the future regarding bandwidth vs capacity, if GDDR7 doesn't hike up density by a significant amount in a couple of years. Some babbling coming up with not much to work with...
GDDR6/6X right now is offered in 1 and 2 GB per 32-bit chip, and it's up to... 16,000 MT/s at least? Density-wise, that's peaking at 1/16 a GB per bit of bus width.
LPDDR5X is up to 8,533 MT/s, but density-wise, so far it seems like it starts at 1/8 GB per bit of bus width and goes up to 1/2 GB per bit, according to Samsung's page. And Nvidia's Grace chip implies the existence of 1 GB per bit.
GDDR6 chips are probably what, at least 10$ each? There are a couple up on digi-key at above 20$ per 2 GB chip, while mouser has some at above 30$ per 2 GB chip (...holy shit, weren't they in the 10-20$ range in 2019?). But AMD surely isn't paying that much. Anyway, according to Samsung this month, GDDR7 should hit 36,000 MT/s, but they didn't mention density. And at the very least, shouldn't be cheaper than GDDR6 per chip.
As for LPDDR6... Samsung's timeline has it listed under 2026. I don't think that JEDEC has ratified it yet, but it's probably safe to assume at least 2x LPDDR5 speed, so 12,800 MT/s. And density should not regress from 5X. And naturally, economy of scale thanks to mobile devices should keep prices from getting out of control, right?

It's too early, but the question does come to mind: it's the future, and you're designing a new, mass market, dedicated game system to launch in the late 2020's. What's your approach to memory?
For a Switch-like device, it's easy, LPDDR continues to match your needs. What about a set top box? How do you balance cost, capacity, and bandwidth needs?
 
Speaking of memory, there's potentially an interesting dichotomy in the future regarding bandwidth vs capacity, if GDDR7 doesn't hike up density by a significant amount in a couple of years. Some babbling coming up with not much to work with...
GDDR6/6X right now is offered in 1 and 2 GB per 32-bit chip, and it's up to... 16,000 MT/s at least? Density-wise, that's peaking at 1/16 a GB per bit of bus width.
LPDDR5X is up to 8,533 MT/s, but density-wise, so far it seems like it starts at 1/8 GB per bit of bus width and goes up to 1/2 GB per bit, according to Samsung's page. And Nvidia's Grace chip implies the existence of 1 GB per bit.
GDDR6 chips are probably what, at least 10$ each? There are a couple up on digi-key at above 20$ per 2 GB chip, while mouser has some at above 30$ per 2 GB chip (...holy shit, weren't they in the 10-20$ range in 2019?). But AMD surely isn't paying that much. Anyway, according to Samsung this month, GDDR7 should hit 36,000 MT/s, but they didn't mention density. And at the very least, shouldn't be cheaper than GDDR6 per chip.
As for LPDDR6... Samsung's timeline has it listed under 2026. I don't think that JEDEC has ratified it yet, but it's probably safe to assume at least 2x LPDDR5 speed, so 12,800 MT/s. And density should not regress from 5X. And naturally, economy of scale thanks to mobile devices should keep prices from getting out of control, right?

It's too early, but the question does come to mind: it's the future, and you're designing a new, mass market, dedicated game system to launch in the late 2020's. What's your approach to memory?
For a Switch-like device, it's easy, LPDDR continues to match your needs. What about a set top box? How do you balance cost, capacity, and bandwidth needs?
I thought LPDDR6 was aiming for 17000MT/s?

Bluetooth and WiFi I really hope are upgraded but I doubt it for some reason, not any logical reasion, even Nintendo has upgraded the WiFi on every new console and nearly every new version.
I know you said you have no reason and this is more of a hunch but I cannot ignore this 😛, it’s also contradictory.
 
While resetera mostly focused on teraflops, it was obvious since the day it was announced that memory would be the series s big handicap imo.
Especially when your gold star feature is ray tracing.
 
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Series S should have been branded as a 1080p machine while the X as the 4k machine, imo. Rather than the 1440p machine.

I hadn’t realized it was branded as a 1440p console. I’ve not paid much attention but I thought expectations around it ahead of launch were 1080p compared to Series X’s 4K.
 
That's all well and good, yes. But is that how they marketed it?
Yes.

The primary difference between Xbox Series X and Xbox Series S is in resolution. Through talking to our customers, we found that many of our fans prioritize framerate over resolution, so we wanted to build a console that didn’t require a 4K TV. Xbox Series S delivers approximately 3x the GPU performance of Xbox One and was designed to play games at 1440p at 60 frames per second, with support for up to 120fps.
From the announcement. And the reveal trailer:

All digital
1440p at up to 120 FPS
 
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