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StarTopic Future Nintendo Hardware & Technology Speculation & Discussion |ST| (Read the staff posts before commenting!)

This is one of the reasons the backwards compat discussion interests me.



IIUC Bluetooth 5 is only backwards compatible with Bluetooth 4.x. While Switch has BT 4.1 hardware, I believe Joy-Cons and Pro Controller are BT 3 devices. So to get the range benefits, controllers would need to be updated. Those updated controllers would need to still support at least 4.1 to be compatible with classic hardware. Dane would still need 4.1 (which is itself compatible with 3) hardware to support Classic Switch controllers.

Looking at Broadcom Wifi/BT chipsets (like the one in the Switch) that support BT5, spec sheets make no mention of BT3/BT4 support, and may only support backwards compat inasmuch as BT 5 does. If so, that looks like a barrier for BT5 adoption.

My personal question is whether or not they'll abandon USB-C to get a faster bus to the dock - network speeds over the OLED's ethernet are already limited by what bandwidth is left after power/HDMI are going over the same connection - MVG found that the network bandwidth was the same for wired ethernet vs the wireless, making transferring your digital library a bitch (though obviously latency was improved). If Dane is pushing 4k numbers of pixels...

Can existing joycons be updated to bluetooth 4,1 via firmware?
 
Can existing joycons be updated to bluetooth 4,1 via firmware?
Well iirc they do have joycon updates so it can take in software updates so maybe?
So I may have spoken out of turn - I did a little digging, it looks like the joycons at least ship with 4.1 hardware, they just negotiate down to 3.0. So it looks like mutual compatibility with up to 5 is possible.
 
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IIUC Bluetooth 5 is only backwards compatible with Bluetooth 4.x. While Switch has BT 4.1 hardware, I believe Joy-Cons and Pro Controller are BT 3 devices. So to get the range benefits, controllers would need to be updated.
Can existing joycons be updated to bluetooth 4,1 via firmware?
The Joy-Cons and the Nintendo Switch Pro Controller also use a Bluetooth 4.1 chip.

My personal question is whether or not they'll abandon USB-C to get a faster bus to the dock - network speeds over the OLED's ethernet are already limited by what bandwidth is left after power/HDMI are going over the same connection - MVG found that the network bandwidth was the same for wired ethernet vs the wireless, making transferring your digital library a bitch (though obviously latency was improved). If Dane is pushing 4k numbers of pixels...
Assuming the EU considers the dock as part of the handheld video game console category, where the EU mandates the use of the USB-C port, probably not. Nintendo's also likely to be forced to be fully compliant with USB-PD standards, considering the EU's also mandating that all devices with a USB-C port use USB-PD standards for fast charging, and assuming the DLSS model* itself is considered as a tablet device, the DLSS model* itself would need to support a power range of 27-45 W to be fully compliant with USB-PD standards. However, I don't know if USB-PD standards compliance would necessarily help with faster bandwidth through the USB-C port. But there are at least newer USB standards that offers faster bandwidth through the USB-C port (SuperSpeed USB 10Gbps, SuperSpeed USB 20Gbps, USB4 20Gbps, USB4 40Gbps, etc.)
 
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what myth??, you literally cant sell what you dont have. how are you gonna sell Switch 2 if you cant manufacture Switch 2 enough??


Lol, I totally forgot this

If you’re selling records numbers and selling out because you’re struggling to meet demand, that’s literally one of the greatest positions any company can be in. It symbolises incredible success.

You seem to be struggling with the concept that to sell out you need to sell amazing numbers in the first place.
 
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I think it's important to consider that stock shortage is a function of two variables: supply and demand. For PS5, it's more about demand rather than stock, since it is selling faster than PS4 launch-aligned. Combining this with what we know about Dane so far (likely higher yield due to smaller die size + made on Samsung 8nm litho), I think it is still more beneficial to Nintendo to avoid holding back its release, since an early release can also re-ignite the player base sooner.
 
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How fast could they reasonably make the Switch 4K game cards? The load times I get playing games on Xbox Series X are a game changer for me and I really don’t want the Switch 4K to suffer from the same slow load times of the base Switch, and that’s not even getting into the kind of game design opened up by fast storage or the potential 3rd party support they could miss out on by not having fast speeds.
Even if they don't change anything about the storage, a better CPU will help a bunch with the loading times.

There is almost certainly some room to boost the game card speeds, but there will probably be some cost associated with that.
Asked in the general thread, thought I'd ask here as well: Is there any indication that there might be a new Lite or Lite-equivalent model coming?
It's not impossible that Dane could release with both the hybrid and Lite at the same time, but we've seen absolutely no indication of any sort of new Lite. My guess at this point is we'll see a Dane version of the Lite (possibly not literally using Dane) a couple years after the hybrid launches, similar to how it played out with Switch 1.
 
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IIUC Bluetooth 5 is only backwards compatible with Bluetooth 4.x. While Switch has BT 4.1 hardware, I believe Joy-Cons and Pro Controller are BT 3 devices. So to get the range benefits, controllers would need to be updated. Those updated controllers would need to still support at least 4.1 to be compatible with classic hardware. Dane would still need 4.1 (which is itself compatible with 3) hardware to support Classic Switch controllers.

Looking at Broadcom Wifi/BT chipsets (like the one in the Switch) that support BT5, spec sheets make no mention of BT3/BT4 support, and may only support backwards compat inasmuch as BT 5 does. If so, that looks like a barrier for BT5 adoption.
Actually, I know this, a BT I/O chip has full BC when used to pair a prior-gen BT device with it (as all Bluetooth versions are mandated to), but none of the benefits of BT5 are conferred when you use a device from before it. While I'm sure there won't be major changes to input, we can certainly see mild changes, like analog trigger buttons that might allow Gamecube emulation (if they can get an emulator that works at this spec), which would allow included Joy-Cons to benefit from these advances, while still allowing the use of standard Joy-Cons in certain games. And if these new controllers are BT5, they are usable in on devices with BT4 I/O chips, which makes them usable on the OG Switch, as well.
My personal question is whether or not they'll abandon USB-C to get a faster bus to the dock - network speeds over the OLED's ethernet are already limited by what bandwidth is left after power/HDMI are going over the same connection - MVG found that the network bandwidth was the same for wired ethernet vs the wireless, making transferring your digital library a bitch (though obviously latency was improved). If Dane is pushing 4k numbers of pixels...
The USB4 standards (which put the USB standard more in line with Intel/Apple's Thunderbolt 3 specs) should be available to them now if they need it, and that will be a serious bump to what a USB-C connection is capable of over what was available to OG Switch..
Asked in the general thread, thought I'd ask here as well: Is there any indication that there might be a new Lite or Lite-equivalent model coming?
Lite versions are usually something that comes after a device is successful in the market. I have no doubt there'll be a Lite model developed in tandem or shortly after a successor is announced, but it's likely not to be released until after the first year of Dane's lifespan at the earliest.
 
Why do people always jump to/ assume Nintendo next step is do what the competition is doing?? When they clearly have never do so in recent times
Well considering that all of these console manufacturers are moving in that direction (as a digital only Switch model would bring higher profit margins for software sold) having an option like PS5 and Series S for Switch seems like the probable solution going forward...

Nintendo's biggest problem is providing a large and fast enough internal storage on top of sustaining a digital ecosystem that's speedy with quick download speeds and cloud saves. If they could solve for all of this by maybe the Switch 3 I could definitely see many choose an all digital Switch as their version of choice, but Nintendo has a lot of ground to make up in order to get there.
 
Asked in the general thread, thought I'd ask here as well: Is there any indication that there might be a new Lite or Lite-equivalent model coming?

Lite versions are usually something that comes after a device is successful in the market. I have no doubt there'll be a Lite model developed in tandem or shortly after a successor is announced, but it's likely not to be released until after the first year of Dane's lifespan at the earliest.

Yeah, if they planned to release such a model, it probably wouldn't come until a while after the successor. As I recall, the Lite wasn't the highest of sellers, which would probably make it less of a priority.

With the next console release, I could see Nintendo positioning the OLED model more akin to where Lite is now as a more affordable option to the main thing, at least for a while, though with less guarantee new releases should work on it.

Well considering that all of these console manufacturers are moving in that direction (as a digital only Switch model would bring higher profit margins for software sold) having an option like PS5 and Series S for Switch seems like the probable solution going forward...

Nintendo's biggest problem is providing a large and fast enough internal storage on top of sustaining a digital ecosystem that's speedy with quick download speeds and cloud saves. If they could solve for all of this by maybe the Switch 3 I could definitely see many choose an all digital Switch as their version of choice, but Nintendo has a lot of ground to make up in order to get there.
There is also the consideration of many places not having the online infrastructure to support this, along with the problem of data caps and so forth.

Furthermore, Switch has the benefit of being the console that feels most like it should have releases available physically, positioning it as a prime choice for individuals who value that.

A potential separate model for people who only want digital could be a consideration, but then Nintendo has to worry about shelf space and production/supply lines.

As it stands, I would expect them to cut production of the non-OLED Switch in order to minimize those.
 
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the biggest reason for the digital systems is to make the prices of the more expensive models easier to swallow. the Lite does the same, though it comes later
 
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If they went in a direction other than physical releases, they run into the problems @Supreme Overlord mentioned, but I could theoretically see a workaround to that, albeit a super-unlikely one, which would be something similar to the Japan-only retail method of kiosks that sell games that can be loaded onto blank physical media (like they used for Super Famicom to sell games like Fire Emblem Thracia 776, Wrecking Crew '98 and Super Famicom Wars after N64 was on store shelves).

Like I said, super unlikely, but not impossible.
 
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the worst possible option Nintendo will do if physical media is a hinderance is to just let the users suffer mandatory downloads, slow load times, and possible stuttering in gameplay. there's no need to use more arcane methods to promote some kind of equality. there are probably ways to make transfer speeds on game cards faster and maybe bring the price of 64GB cards down, but Nintendo should just focus on having the internal memory and expandable storage be sufficiently fast
 
I can't see Nintendo going digital only while their internal storage can barely support owning more than a handful of games, digitally. Especially third-party titles.
 
Well considering that all of these console manufacturers are moving in that direction (as a digital only Switch model would bring higher profit margins for software sold) having an option like PS5 and Series S for Switch seems like the probable solution going forward...

Nintendo's biggest problem is providing a large and fast enough internal storage on top of sustaining a digital ecosystem that's speedy with quick download speeds and cloud saves. If they could solve for all of this by maybe the Switch 3 I could definitely see many choose an all digital Switch as their version of choice, but Nintendo has a lot of ground to make up in order to get there.
"Digital only" is a greed dream trying to maximize the platform holder profits. But not a feasible dream, Download speeds, Data Caps, Game Sizes, not everywhere in the world is suited for that Digital only future.
If anything, the most pirated/ emulated publisher has even less gains from given them more excuse to do so under the guise of "Preservation".
Maybe we will get to a point were Digital will be a higher % than physicals sales, but if Music industry has not phase out the CD, highly doubt games will lead the charge to a Digital only future without crashing into a wall
 
If they were going to introduce a digital only sku into the picture, it is likely a regional thing for places that askew more digital than physical.
 
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The succ won't release with only a digital only model, if that exists, it will release with a physical game model too, the reason is simple: Japan. We all know Japan LOVES physical media and hasn't transitioned too much to digital for games, I believe it's related to their second hand game market, thus Nintendo will appeal to Japan by releasing a model that supports game cards. They may release a digital only system at the same time or later, or they may not.

If physical cards are too slow, I can see Nintendo giving the option of optional installs of part of, or the entire game, to speed things up. Leaving the decision to the user may be the best thing they could do in that scenario, but they should provide more than 128GB then, otherwise it'll be a headache and we know that many games haven't come to the Switch not due to it's power, but it's small storage size and large game cards being too expensive (I guess a 64GB one will never materialize for the OG Switch).

Also, does anyone know why the ethernet speeds of the Switch are so low? Is it Nintendo servers that cap it or is it the Switch itself that cannot bear higher speeds due to some bottleneck? I remember MVG complaining about Nintendo's servers not being updated to be faster, but is that truly the case? Or is it something that a faster system would solve by removing said bottleneck?
 
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The succ won't release with only a digital only model, if that exists, it will release with a physical game model too, the reason is simple: Japan. We all know Japan LOVES physical media and hasn't transitioned too much to digital for games, I believe it's related to their second hand game market, thus Nintendo will appeal to Japan by releasing a model that supports game cards. They may release a digital only system at the same time or later, or they may not.

If physical cards are too slow, I can see Nintendo giving the option of optional installs of part of, or the entire game, to speed things up. Leaving the decision to the user may be the best thing they could do in that scenario, but they should provide more than 128GB then, otherwise it'll be a headache and we know that many games haven't come to the Switch not due to it's power, but it's small storage size and large game cards being too expensive (I guess a 64GB one will never materialize for the OG Switch).

Also, does anyone know why the ethernet speeds of the Switch are so low? Is it Nintendo servers that cap it or is it the Switch itself that cannot bear higher speeds due to some bottleneck? I remember MVG complaining about Nintendo's servers not being updated to be faster, but is that truly the case? Or is it something that a faster system would solve by removing said bottleneck?
I believe Nintendo caps the speed, but also it could generate a bit more heat than you would want When the heat of the system docked tends to come from the SOC and the switch has such a tiny fan.
 
I believe Nintendo caps the speed, but also it could generate a bit more heat than you would want When the heat of the system docked tends to come from the SOC and the switch has such a tiny fan.
I hope this isn't an issue with the succ then, because games will certainly be larger and so will DLC, maybe not 100GB large, but I could see 64GB~ downloads, and doing so at 40mbps would take a long time. Allowing it to reach at least 1gbps would make many people happy I think.

Edit: That aside, I wonder when we will hear about devs asking for some specific things about the Dane, like with Capcom and the Switch? I imagine it'll be some time after the SoC has been taped out, or after the console releases, but it'd be interesting if we heard something by the end of the year or the beginning of next one.
 
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So on 19 October 2021, Parade Technologies formally introduced the PS8830, a USB4, DisplayPort 2.0, and Thunderbolt 3.0 retimer chip that supports USB 3.2 tunnelling and DisplayPort 1.4a tunnelling, as well as support DisplayPort Alt Mode 2.0, which Parade Technologies said is sampling now.

One advantage of DisplayPort Alt Mode 2.0 is that DisplayPort Alt Mode 2.0 can support up to 40 Gbps using two lanes, with the remaining two lanes available for USB 3.2 data, or up to 80 Gbps using all four lanes. And Parade Technologies announced on 3 August 2021 that the PS195 and the PS196 DisplayPort 2.0 to HDMI 2.1 converters are sampling now, which means that in terms of 4K 60 Hz, 12-bit 4:4:4 (RGB) chroma is fully supported. And in terms of 4K 120 Hz, 8-bit 4:4:4 (RGB) is the highest chroma supported if the amount of available bandwidth is 40 Gbps, or 12-bit 4:4:4 (RGB) chroma is fully supported if the amount of available bandwidth is 80 Gbps.

Anyway, I highly doubt that the DLSS model* is going to support USB4, considering that a USB4 controller chip, a DisplayPort 2.0 to HDMI 2.1 converter chip, and a USB4, DisplayPort 2,0, and Thunderbolt 3.0 retimer chip, are probably still very expensive and/or are likely to be very expensive, especially with the consumer electronics market being slow to fully adopt new standards.

However, if Nintendo plans for the DLSS model* to support HDMI 2.1 for TV mode (via a RTD2173 chip, a DisplayPort 1.4 to HDMI 2.1 converter chip, from Realtek, in the DLSS model*'s dock), especially if Nintendo wants support for VRR for TV mode (and handheld mode), I think there's a possibility that the USB-C port on the DLSS model* itself, as well as the USC-C port on the DLSS model*'s dock, supports SuperSpeed USB 10Gbps (or USB 3.2 Gen 2x1 or USB 3.1 Gen 2 or USB 3.1) via a PI3USB31532 chip, a USB 3.2 Gen 2(x1)/DisplayPort 1.4 crossbar switch for USB-C, which offers double the bandwidth from the USB-C port on the Nintendo Switch, as well as the USB-C port on the Nintendo Switch's dock, which supports SuperSpeed USB 5Gbps (or USB 3.2 Gen 1x1 or USB 3.1 Gen 1 or USB 3.0) via a PI3USB31532 chip, a USB 3.2 Gen 1(x1)/DisplayPort 1.2 crossbar switch for USB-C.

In the scenario where a PI3USB31532 chip and a RTD2173 chip are used, in terms of 4K 60 Hz, 12-bit 4:2:0 is the highest supported chroma if two channels of DisplayPort 1.4 signals (~16 Gbps) and one lane of USB 3.2 Gen 2x1 signal (10 Gbps) are being used, or 12-bit 4:4:4 (RGB) chroma is fully supported if four channels of DisplayPort 1.4 signals (~32 Gbps) are being used. However, 4K 120 Hz is only possible if four channels of DisplayPort 1.4 signals (~32 Gbps) are being used, where 8-bit 4:4:4 (RGB) is the highest supported chroma.
 
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Honestly HDMI 2.1 seems kinda pointless for Switch 4K.
That's on the CPU, not the actual media read speed. A much improved CPU will massively improve load times with no other changes.
It’s both. A better CPU will only improve things so much before the game cards become a bottleneck.
 
My personal question is whether or not they'll abandon USB-C to get a faster bus to the dock - network speeds over the OLED's ethernet are already limited by what bandwidth is left after power/HDMI are going over the same connection - MVG found that the network bandwidth was the same for wired ethernet vs the wireless, making transferring your digital library a bitch (though obviously latency was improved). If Dane is pushing 4k numbers of pixels...
This still shocks me when he talked about it in Nate's latest podcast. Like...it's hard to take Nintendo seriously when they've done absolutely nothing behind the scenes to improve their online infrastructure even after all this revenue from 26m NSO subscribers.

Sorry if this is off topic, I just don't know where else to go to sus out speculation about there being any hope that they'll actually make use of their money to fund their own online beyond hardware R&D or if between this and the unused HDMI 2.0 port in the OLED dock, if they'll simply stay throttled for arbitrary reasons. (At this point I just hope I'm making sense and not just rambling.) I would have thought that with cloud games slowly gaining foothold, it would be the best way to play when the base/Dane hardware still can't support the most intensive AAA content. However, if Nintendo wouldn't even use tech to its full extent, and just be used because it's the cheapest option and more available...

Well Christ, that's just disappointing.
 
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Sorry if this is off topic, I just don't know where else to go to sus out speculation about there being any hope that they'll actually make use of their money to fund their own online beyond hardware R&D or if between this and the unused HDMI 2.0 ports in the OLED dock, if they'll simply stay throttled for arbitrary reasons.
Are you talking about the USB 2.0 ports on the OLED model's dock? There's only one HDMI 2.0b port on the OLED model's dock.
 
Are you talking about the USB 2.0 ports on the OLED model's dock? There's only one HDMI 2.0b port on the OLED model's dock.
Sorry, slip of the finger; I meant the HDMI port in the singular. I'll make that change now
 
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The succ won't release with only a digital only model, if that exists, it will release with a physical game model too, the reason is simple: Japan. We all know Japan LOVES physical media and hasn't transitioned too much to digital for games, I believe it's related to their second hand game market, thus Nintendo will appeal to Japan by releasing a model that supports game cards. They may release a digital only system at the same time or later, or they may not.

If physical cards are too slow, I can see Nintendo giving the option of optional installs of part of, or the entire game, to speed things up. Leaving the decision to the user may be the best thing they could do in that scenario, but they should provide more than 128GB then, otherwise it'll be a headache and we know that many games haven't come to the Switch not due to it's power, but it's small storage size and large game cards being too expensive (I guess a 64GB one will never materialize for the OG Switch).

Also, does anyone know why the ethernet speeds of the Switch are so low? Is it Nintendo servers that cap it or is it the Switch itself that cannot bear higher speeds due to some bottleneck? I remember MVG complaining about Nintendo's servers not being updated to be faster, but is that truly the case? Or is it something that a faster system would solve by removing said bottleneck?
Data limitations through the USB-C port they used, since that's the only physical connection to the device when docked. That's one of 2 bottlenecks, the other being write speed to the eMMC/SD cards, since there's no sense in a download speed faster than what can write to the storage. My understanding is that Nintendo caps download speeds on Switch to no faster than 50Mbps?
So on 19 October 2021, Parade Technologies formally introduced the PS8830, a USB4, DisplayPort 2.0, and Thunderbolt 3.0 retimer chip that supports USB 3.2 tunnelling and DisplayPort 1.4a tunnelling, as well as support DisplayPort Alt Mode 2.0, which Parade Technologies said is sampling now.

One advantage of DisplayPort Alt Mode 2.0 is that DisplayPort Alt Mode 2.0 can support up to 40 Gbps using two lanes, with the remaining two lanes available for USB 3.2 data, or up to 80 Gbps using all four lanes. And Parade Technologies announced on 3 August 2021 that the PS195 and the PS196 DisplayPort 2.0 to HDMI 2.1 converters are sampling now, which means that in terms of 4K 60 Hz, 12-bit 4:4:4 (RGB) chroma is fully supported. And in terms of 4K 120 Hz, 8-bit 4:4:4 (RGB) is the highest chroma supported if the amount of available bandwidth is 40 Gbps, or 12-bit 4:4:4 (RGB) chroma is fully supported if the amount of available bandwidth is 80 Gbps.

Anyway, I highly doubt that the DLSS model* is going to support USB4, considering that a USB4 controller chip, a DisplayPort 2.0 to HDMI 2.1 converter chip, and a USB4, DisplayPort 2,0, and Thunderbolt 3.0 retimer chip, are probably still very expensive and/or are likely to be very expensive, especially with the consumer electronics market being slow to fully adopt new standards.

However, if Nintendo plans for the DLSS model* to support HDMI 2.1 for TV mode (via a RTD2173 chip, a DisplayPort 1.4 to HDMI 2.1 converter chip, from Realtek, in the DLSS model*'s dock), especially if Nintendo wants support for VRR for TV mode (and handheld mode), I think there's a possibility that the USB-C port on the DLSS model* itself, as well as the USC-C port on the DLSS model*'s dock, supports SuperSpeed USB 10Gbps (or USB 3.2 Gen 2x1 or USB 3.1 Gen 2 or USB 3.1) via a PI3USB31532 chip, a USB 3.2 Gen 2(x1)/DisplayPort 1.4 crossbar switch for USB-C, which offers double the bandwidth from the USB-C port on the Nintendo Switch, as well as the USB-C port on the Nintendo Switch's dock, which supports SuperSpeed USB 5Gbps (or USB 3.2 Gen 1x1 or USB 3.1 Gen 1 or USB 3.0) via a PI3USB31532 chip, a USB 3.2 Gen 1(x1)/DisplayPort 1.2 crossbar switch for USB-C.

In the scenario where a PI3USB31532 chip and a RTD2173 chip are used, in terms of 4K 60 Hz, 12-bit 4:2:0 is the highest supported chroma if two channels of DisplayPort 1.4 signals (~16 Gbps) and one lane of USB 3.2 Gen 2x1 signal (10 Gbps) are being used, or 12-bit 4:4:4 (RGB) chroma is fully supported if four channels of DisplayPort 1.4 signals (~32 Gbps) are being used. However, 4K 120 Hz is only possible if four channels of DisplayPort 1.4 signals (~32 Gbps) are being used, where 8-bit 4:4:4 (RGB) is the highest supported chroma.
I have to ask the obvious question: does Nintendo care about 4K? This might be a controversial to suggest, but the US is the largest market for 4K televisions in the world and even still, despite being on the market for close to a decade now, less than half of US households own one.
Could Nintendo forego 4K and what sort of advantages does that present for them? I know the disadvantages are that the 4K TV market will grow, at least in the US, but by how much is ultimately the question, either by the time Dane is released or 5-7 years after.
 
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Data limitations through the USB-C port they used, since that's the only physical connection to the device when docked. That's one of 2 bottlenecks, the other being write speed to the eMMC/SD cards, since there's no sense in a download speed faster than what can write to the storage. My understanding is that Nintendo caps download speeds on Switch to no faster than 50Mbps?

I have to ask the obvious question: does Nintendo care about 4K? This might be a controversial to suggest, but the US is the largest market for 4K televisions in the world and even still, despite being on the market for close to a decade now, less than half of US households own one.
Could Nintendo forego 4K and what sort of advantages does that present for them? I know the disadvantages are that the 4K TV market will grow, at least in the US, but by how much is ultimately the question, either by the time Dane is released or 5-7 years after.
What else would they sell the system on? 1440p?

The only options for a "Selling Point" for this sort of system to justify a 400$+ price would be either

"It can do 4K now"
or
"It's a next-gen switch targeting the games that the next-gen systems can run"

and even though the hardware that Nintendo would put in the thing could very well do the latter (an 8 Core, 6SM config could get right near or match the Series S after DLSS GPU wise, and 55-75% of the CPU performance of that)

They would be far more likely to advertise the former I feel, especially considering the consumer shock of "Wait, this thing can output 4k or visuals like the PS5?" which that sort of correlation would bring which likely would be more sales-prone versus "It is going against the Series S"
 
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This still shocks me when he talked about it in Nate's latest podcast. Like...it's hard to take Nintendo seriously when they've done absolutely nothing behind the scenes to improve their online infrastructure even after all this revenue from 26m NSO subscribers.

Sorry if this is off topic, I just don't know where else to go to sus out speculation about there being any hope that they'll actually make use of their money to fund their own online beyond hardware R&D or if between this and the unused HDMI 2.0 port in the OLED dock, if they'll simply stay throttled for arbitrary reasons. (At this point I just hope I'm making sense and not just rambling.) I would have thought that with cloud games slowly gaining foothold, it would be the best way to play when the base/Dane hardware still can't support the most intensive AAA content. However, if Nintendo wouldn't even use tech to its full extent, and just be used because it's the cheapest option and more available...

Well Christ, that's just disappointing.
I suspect a big part of the issue with game downloads in particular is they're probably fairly CPU and I/O bottlenecked because Nintendo doesn't seem to give them much resources to work with. This is a good thing while a game is running, but it would be nice if it expanded to use the available resources while just sitting on the Home Menu with nothing running.
Data limitations through the USB-C port they used, since that's the only physical connection to the device when docked. That's one of 2 bottlenecks, the other being write speed to the eMMC/SD cards, since there's no sense in a download speed faster than what can write to the storage. My understanding is that Nintendo caps download speeds on Switch to no faster than 50Mbps?

I have to ask the obvious question: does Nintendo care about 4K? This might be a controversial to suggest, but the US is the largest market for 4K televisions in the world and even still, despite being on the market for close to a decade now, less than half of US households own one.
Could Nintendo forego 4K and what sort of advantages does that present for them? I know the disadvantages are that the 4K TV market will grow, at least in the US, but by how much is ultimately the question, either by the time Dane is released or 5-7 years after.
4k support, is like, probably the most consistent detail that we've gotten in rumors about this system. Even more than DLSS, which is how said 4k will most likely be achieved in practice most of the time. It's to the point where "Switch 4k" is one of the names people use to avoid the Pro vs 2 debate.

Aside from maybe being able to cheap out on a few of the components (though as the Switch OLED dock kind of demonstrates, it's debatable if trying to go for sub-4k-capable chips is really even worth it at this point), the only real benefit is that they could in theory, push additional fidelity at lower resolutions, but fancy upscaling techniques like DLSS also let them do that, so it's kind of a wash.

Also I think Nintendo realizes that they kind of waited too long to move to HD output, and do not want to repeat that.
 
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The succ won't release with only a digital only model, if that exists, it will release with a physical game model too, the reason is simple: Japan. We all know Japan LOVES physical media and hasn't transitioned too much to digital for games, I believe it's related to their second hand game market, thus Nintendo will appeal to Japan by releasing a model that supports game cards. They may release a digital only system at the same time or later, or they may not.

Nintendo is a toy company, that's basically the main reason why digital won't go away, physical devices that you can market are the basics necessary in this market, that's at the core of Nintendo's business strategy and is why they are the only video game maker left with a hardware-software integrated strategy.
Given that premise which is validated to this day with things like Nintendo Labo, the Switch Lite or even Game Garage, IMO it's impossible for Nintendo to go digital only.

If physical cards are too slow, I can see Nintendo giving the option of optional installs of part of, or the entire game, to speed things up. Leaving the decision to the user may be the best thing they could do in that scenario, but they should provide more than 128GB then, otherwise it'll be a headache and we know that many games haven't come to the Switch not due to it's power, but it's small storage size and large game cards being too expensive (I guess a 64GB one will never materialize for the OG Switch).

Nintendo won't let the user decide on technical matters without putting a coat of user-friendliness around it, and they won't do it either if that means more cost just for that. Like always and already said, games don't come usually because the publisher doesn't see enough ROI with the level of proficiency (good programmers) available to make a console version.

Also, does anyone know why the ethernet speeds of the Switch are so low? Is it Nintendo servers that cap it or is it the Switch itself that cannot bear higher speeds due to some bottleneck? I remember MVG complaining about Nintendo's servers not being updated to be faster, but is that truly the case? Or is it something that a faster system would solve by removing said bottleneck?

MVG is a programmer that have no understanding of network architecture or system engineering. What he measured is not the Ethernet speed of the Switch, and he should have understood that from the start the bandwidth is capped at the CDN level, usually by design as at these levels bandwidth costs money even if you don't use it and it was the most cost effective solution for Nintendo. Nintendo do not make digital-only consoles and the digital ratio is always around 30 %, they have the numbers and the Wii U experience from which they derived the most cost-effective solution.

This still shocks me when he talked about it in Nate's latest podcast. Like...it's hard to take Nintendo seriously when they've done absolutely nothing behind the scenes to improve their online infrastructure even after all this revenue from 26m NSO subscribers.
Nintendo doesn't need to improve anything about its online infrastructure, bandwidth capping at the CDN level is actually pretty advanced network solution that involve QoS and all kind of high availability. Not capping anything is the most basic thing to do and costs more. Also, Nintendo is only one small company that only use its CDN for games related content and has to scale for that specifically, Sony is a huge company that has movies and all kind of other content to deliver and can subsidize the game delivery part with its other contracts, Microsoft has Azure of which their CDN is just a part of.
That's because Nintendo scaled its CDN contracts correctly that they can both offer a robust Online service (which is the primary goal of your CDN, being available) and a cheap price. They have no need to provide higher download speeds like 1 Gbps, I think even going the full 100 Mbps in the future will be enough.
Again, they have the numbers, and I guess most of their customers do not have a home network capable of taking advantage of higher than 100 Mbps speeds.
The video content providers bandwidth for movies or series know that too.
Sony is actually the unique provider that can maximize my download bandwidth (~800 Mbps measured) and I believe that's because they have edge nodes at the ISP, my ISP being the only other provider able to do that, and the test option on the PS5 showing ridiculously low bandwidths.
 
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I have to ask the obvious question: does Nintendo care about 4K? This might be a controversial to suggest, but the US is the largest market for 4K televisions in the world and even still, despite being on the market for close to a decade now, less than half of US households own one.
Could Nintendo forego 4K and what sort of advantages does that present for them? I know the disadvantages are that the 4K TV market will grow, at least in the US, but by how much is ultimately the question, either by the time Dane is released or 5-7 years after.
Nintendo understood since the Gamecube days that most people are tech illiterate when they saw that people could be fooled (specifically by Sony) by comparing things that are not the same but that only tech proficient people can see as obvious. TV tech are no different. Since these days, Nintendo then stopped providing tech details that people couldn't understand anyway. And it was a good decision, for example, one of the latest metric that most people can't understand and used without understanding are flops.
Sony based its console business from the start on the synergy with its multimedia business, the goal was to put the console in the living room. So since the first PlayStation, their consoles always had video and music related functions (from CD+SVCD to streaming now). Nintendo can't copy that strategy and it has never been their goal anyway, and Nintendo correctly analyzed with the Wii that the market was not ready for HDTV at the replacement rate going on back then.
Nintendo has among the most competent engineers and they know very well that 4K as usually used is a marketing term and that the market is now ready for Ultra HD TV at the replacement rate going on now. Like I said already and that Nintendo knows too, (DCI) 4K (4 K being 4 Ki which is 4096, as the 4K resolution is 4096x2160, not a 16:9 ratio like on HDTV and UHD TV, like 2K most used in theaters is 2048x1080, not a 16:9 ratio like HDTV) is a theater resolution not available on TV, which are Ultra HD, abbreviated UHD-4K for 2160p and UHD-8K for 4320p.
I don't know if Nintendo will put the marketing 4K in their successor console name, IMO they won't do that, that has zero benefit to them as they don't base their strategy on multimedia but only on games, my gut feeling is that they have more chance to put Ultra or UHD in the name than 4K.
 
Nintendo understood since the Gamecube days that most people are tech illiterate when they saw that people could be fooled (specifically by Sony) by comparing things that are not the same but that only tech proficient people can see as obvious. TV tech are no different. Since these days, Nintendo then stopped providing tech details that people couldn't understand anyway. And it was a good decision, for example, one of the latest metric that most people can't understand and used without understanding are flops.
Sony based its console business from the start on the synergy with its multimedia business, the goal was to put the console in the living room. So since the first PlayStation, their consoles always had video and music related functions (from CD+SVCD to streaming now). Nintendo can't copy that strategy and it has never been their goal anyway, and Nintendo correctly analyzed with the Wii that the market was not ready for HDTV at the replacement rate going on back then.
Nintendo has among the most competent engineers and they know very well that 4K as usually used is a marketing term and that the market is now ready for Ultra HD TV at the replacement rate going on now. Like I said already and that Nintendo knows too, (DCI) 4K (4 K being 4 Ki which is 4096, as the 4K resolution is 4096x2160, not a 16:9 ratio like on HDTV and UHD TV, like 2K most used in theaters is 2048x1080, not a 16:9 ratio like HDTV) is a theater resolution not available on TV, which are Ultra HD, abbreviated UHD-4K for 2160p and UHD-8K for 4320p.
I don't know if Nintendo will put the marketing 4K in their successor console name, IMO they won't do that, that has zero benefit to them as they don't base their strategy on multimedia but only on games, my gut feeling is that they have more chance to put Ultra or UHD in the name than 4K.
Forgive me for using the imprecise terminology. That being said, UHD TV adoption is still under 50% after 10 years (the first UHD TV was available for sale in 2012), just like I said.
4k support, is like, probably the most consistent detail that we've gotten in rumors about this system. Even more than DLSS, which is how said 4k will most likely be achieved in practice most of the time. It's to the point where "Switch 4k" is one of the names people use to avoid the Pro vs 2 debate.

Aside from maybe being able to cheap out on a few of the components (though as the Switch OLED dock kind of demonstrates, it's debatable if trying to go for sub-4k-capable chips is really even worth it at this point), the only real benefit is that they could in theory, push additional fidelity at lower resolutions, but fancy upscaling techniques like DLSS also let them do that, so it's kind of a wash.

Also I think Nintendo realizes that they kind of waited too long to move to HD output, and do not want to repeat that.
Well, if it's a wash either way, then I guess there's no reason for it not to be present then.
 
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One of the things about 4K (and increasing resolutions in general) is that it benefits all comsumers, even if their TV doesn’t support that resolution. 4K games downscaled on 1080p TVs look really clean.
 
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Data limitations through the USB-C port they used, since that's the only physical connection to the device when docked. That's one of 2 bottlenecks, the other being write speed to the eMMC/SD cards, since there's no sense in a download speed faster than what can write to the storage. My understanding is that Nintendo caps download speeds on Switch to no faster than 50Mbps?

I have to ask the obvious question: does Nintendo care about 4K? This might be a controversial to suggest, but the US is the largest market for 4K televisions in the world and even still, despite being on the market for close to a decade now, less than half of US households own one.
Could Nintendo forego 4K and what sort of advantages does that present for them? I know the disadvantages are that the 4K TV market will grow, at least in the US, but by how much is ultimately the question, either by the time Dane is released or 5-7 years after.
Do they care about it? I think they do, just in their own way. Back then when the Wii U was out, Miyamoto went on the record saying that he regrets not touching HD sooner such as during the Wii days. With access to a 4K UHD TV becomes more affordable (not necessarily a good 4K UHD TV mind you, but those people didn’t care anyway), it seems like a slower from the outside as we are living in it, but It’s a quicker transition to the 2160p era. I’ll get to that on my following post to this link below.


HD being a thing in the 90s and then catching on really quickly in the mid to late 2000s. So around a 15-20 year time frame? With 4K it’s been around in consumer products for a little over a decade now I think, and they are still in the growing phase which makes an easier marketing check mark for the mass market.




“On October 25, 2012, LG Electronics began selling the first flat panel Ultra HD display in the United States with a resolution of 3840 × 2160.”

So we definitely are transitioning fairly fast into this 4K era despite it seeming like we aren’t.

Nintendo basically went into HD at the very tail end of it. Consumer HD that is. The 16:9 AR.


But also, it could be a byproduct that they didn’t necessarily expect to go into so soon, but “stumbled” upon a solution that allows them to still be lower power yet offer acceptable results.

On top of that they don’t really go for powerful products per se, just more so power efficient products. No joke they’ve went the way of being very low power over the last 20 years is astonishing. (This is also a byproduct though)



It’s different from Sony and Microsoft, with the former doing so to deter the PC space and the latter doing it to not lose the former in the console space and make their move in gaming more attractive.

Sony also has direct data into the TV market considering they are a TV manufacturer.
 
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The 3ds was them trying to get ahead of trends. Can't blame Nintendo for it faltering, everyone tried and it didn't work out
They figured that their best bet isn’t to get their early or late, but to aim for the midway.

But that itself is a whole challenge in an of itself.
 
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I have to ask the obvious question: does Nintendo care about 4K? This might be a controversial to suggest, but the US is the largest market for 4K televisions in the world and even still, despite being on the market for close to a decade now, less than half of US households own one.
Could Nintendo forego 4K and what sort of advantages does that present for them? I know the disadvantages are that the 4K TV market will grow, at least in the US, but by how much is ultimately the question, either by the time Dane is released or 5-7 years after.
Considering Shigeru Miyamoto mentions Nintendo regretting not adopting HD sooner for the Wii, I think Nintendo does care about 4K, but probably not for the same reasons Microsoft and Sony care about 4K.

Speaking about 4K, outside of Nintendo games developed by Nintendo Entertainment Planning & Development (EPD), I don't expect most games to run at 4K with DLSS enabled. I expect most games to run at a range of ~1440p ~ 1800p with DLSS enabled.

~

Anyway, a developer who worked on the Yuzu emulator apparently agrees with SciresM that without a Maxwell GPU, backwards compatibility is not viable. I assume that developer is talking about 100% backwards compatibility, which I feel like emulation developers can be way too fixated on. I think the scenario that NateDrake mentioned about Nintendo talking to Nvidia about including support for Maxwell GPU drivers when designing Dane to achieve 99.9% backwards compatibility is the most viable option to achieve backwards compatibility. And I believe that's what Microsoft and Sony did with the Xbox Series X|S and the PlayStation 5. In other words, backwards compatibility is very far from the most problematic issue with Dane.
 
Considering Shigeru Miyamoto mentions Nintendo regretting not adopting HD sooner for the Wii, I think Nintendo does care about 4K, but probably not for the same reasons Microsoft and Sony care about 4K.

Speaking about 4K, outside of Nintendo games developed by Nintendo Entertainment Planning & Development (EPD), I don't expect most games to run at 4K with DLSS enabled. I expect most games to run at a range of ~1440p ~ 1800p with DLSS enabled.

~

Anyway, a developer who worked on the Yuzu emulator apparently agrees with SciresM that without a Maxwell GPU, backwards compatibility is not viable. I assume that developer is talking about 100% backwards compatibility, which I feel like emulation developers can be way too fixated on. I think the scenario that NateDrake mentioned about Nintendo talking to Nvidia about including support for Maxwell GPU drivers when designing Dane to achieve 99.9% backwards compatibility is the most viable option to achieve backwards compatibility. And I believe that's what Microsoft and Sony did with the Xbox Series X|S and the PlayStation 5. In other words, backwards compatibility is very far from the most problematic issue with Dane.
Not sure exactly what he means by that quite but ;

"There'd still be tons of duplication or redundant logic built into the chip if you want to be at native speed."

Why would they possible want to run at native speed? Does overclocking a current switch cause any problems at all? Cause my impressions is that running at faster than native speed, is nothing but advantageous.
 
Not sure exactly what he means by that quite but ;

"There'd still be tons of duplication or redundant logic built into the chip if you want to be at native speed."

Why would they possible want to run at native speed? Does overclocking a current switch cause any problems at all? Cause my impressions is that running at faster than native speed, is nothing but advantageous.
Nope, no issues outside of heat and battery life if you overclock in portable.
 
Grigorenko shared the following with Nintendo Everything when asked if there's anything he'd like to see out of an upgraded Switch:
"The obvious answer would be overall better hardware with less build and patch size limitations, but I don't think the Switch needs a more powerful version that badly. Saber and many other talented studios have already proven that there is no such thing as an impossible port. Nintendo consoles were never about hardware, they were always about something that boosts your gameplay experience, and I can’t wait to see what they come up with next."
During the same interview, we asked Grigorenko if he believes there's more that can be extracted from Switch when it comes to hardware. In response, he said:

"Each game we release on Switch pushes the hardware more than before. World War Z was a bigger challenge than our previous projects, and I am sure our next projects will also stand out, but it all depends on the game. Sometimes in the video game industry the things that look incredibly complex from an outside perspective are actually easy to implement during development. Most of the time it's the other way around though; the simplest things can take an immense amount of time and effort to get working. At Saber, I feel we reached a great balance in all our Switch ports by delivering amazing gameplay and keeping the games looking great."
 
I'm pretty sure their devs would love to deal with more memory/bandwidth and a better cpu while doing ports, even if it's not needed
 
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Considering Shigeru Miyamoto mentions Nintendo regretting not adopting HD sooner for the Wii, I think Nintendo does care about 4K, but probably not for the same reasons Microsoft and Sony care about 4K.

Speaking about 4K, outside of Nintendo games developed by Nintendo Entertainment Planning & Development (EPD), I don't expect most games to run at 4K with DLSS enabled. I expect most games to run at a range of ~1440p ~ 1800p with DLSS enabled.

~

Anyway, a developer who worked on the Yuzu emulator apparently agrees with SciresM that without a Maxwell GPU, backwards compatibility is not viable. I assume that developer is talking about 100% backwards compatibility, which I feel like emulation developers can be way too fixated on. I think the scenario that NateDrake mentioned about Nintendo talking to Nvidia about including support for Maxwell GPU drivers when designing Dane to achieve 99.9% backwards compatibility is the most viable option to achieve backwards compatibility. And I believe that's what Microsoft and Sony did with the Xbox Series X|S and the PlayStation 5. In other words, backwards compatibility is very far from the most problematic issue with Dane.

The thing that separates Switch from many other platforms I believe is that tbe Maxwell driver stack is included in every single piece of software. I do not believe MS and Sony is the same in this regard. Not sure why Nintendo would take this approach.

I do not believe its and unsolvable issue by any means though.
 
Considering Shigeru Miyamoto mentions Nintendo regretting not adopting HD sooner for the Wii, I think Nintendo does care about 4K, but probably not for the same reasons Microsoft and Sony care about 4K.

Speaking about 4K, outside of Nintendo games developed by Nintendo Entertainment Planning & Development (EPD), I don't expect most games to run at 4K with DLSS enabled. I expect most games to run at a range of ~1440p ~ 1800p with DLSS enabled.

~

Anyway, a developer who worked on the Yuzu emulator apparently agrees with SciresM that without a Maxwell GPU, backwards compatibility is not viable. I assume that developer is talking about 100% backwards compatibility, which I feel like emulation developers can be way too fixated on. I think the scenario that NateDrake mentioned about Nintendo talking to Nvidia about including support for Maxwell GPU drivers when designing Dane to achieve 99.9% backwards compatibility is the most viable option to achieve backwards compatibility. And I believe that's what Microsoft and Sony did with the Xbox Series X|S and the PlayStation 5. In other words, backwards compatibility is very far from the most problematic issue with Dane.
I'd sure like to see a source on their claim that the Wii U included a Wii GPU on die, because I don't recall that really being considered back in the NeoGAF thread where the die photo was analyzed.
The thing that separates Switch from many other platforms I believe is that tbe Maxwell driver stack is included in every single piece of software. I do not believe MS and Sony is the same in this regard. Not sure why Nintendo would take this approach.

I do not believe its and unsolvable issue by any means though.
As far as I can tell, it's not the full driver. The part with actual hardware access seems to be part of the OS as one would expect.

Also, if games are shipping precompiled shaders, it's probably not going to make much difference if the non-precompiled ones are also Maxwell.
 
I'd sure like to see a source on their claim that the Wii U included a Wii GPU on die, because I don't recall that really being considered back in the NeoGAF thread where the die photo was analyzed.
there isn't, it was the wii gpu was compatible with the Wii U's gpu
 
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This seems to just be informed speculation:
Why is the GX a separate block and not a compatibility mode of the GX2? To be fair, I don’t have hard evidence that they do not share absolutely any hardware, but this goes back to common sense.
Not sure it really matches the die photo analysis. The Wii U hardware is also generally not a very "common sense" design.
 
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