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StarTopic Future Nintendo Hardware & Technology Speculation & Discussion |ST| (Read the staff posts before commenting!)

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Machrider said:
Are we totally sure Samsung 5nm is out of the question? If that was the choice it would kind of mirror Tegra X1 being 20nm Maxwell while all other Maxwell GPUs were 28nm.
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Nvidia usually secures process node capacity to fabricate multiple products. (One example is that Nvidia secured capacity for TSMC's 7 nm* process node for fabricating A100, BlueField-3, Quantum-2, and ConnectX-7.)
I believe TSMC's 20 nm* process node was the exception where the Tegra X1 was the only product from Nvidia fabricated using that process node.

And I haven't heard any rumours of Nvidia securing process node capacity for Samsung's 5 nm* process node.

* → a marketing nomenclature used by all foundry companies
 
omniryu said:
That's the first and likely theory. I think they will have multiple if not all regions in gen 10.
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GF will never
EVER
make an all regions game.
Multiple regions can happen (already happened, multiple times if you include old gb/ds games and the SV DLC).
But all regions in a single game is never gonna happen, ever.
 
pelusilla6 said:
Ssd from the Steam Deck LCD (s:resetera)

Screenshot-20220328-213705.png


There is still a big difference but i guess a x8 is really good. Anyway, its better using the internal storage if it ends using ufs 3.1.
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On paper, that SSD is 23 times faster than a micro SD can be on the Deck. In practice, there are bottlenecks preventing games from using that full speed. If you look up for Deck loading times benchmarks in google, the SSD often times doesn't even halves the loading times.

Consoles doesn't have one of the bottlenecks (copying from the general RAM to the GPU's RAM, as they have a unified RAM) and the PS5 and XBS solved another (CPU not being fast enough to decompress game files) using a dedicated hardware for decompression. And the T239 has a decompression hardware too, so chances are that the next Switch would load most games faster than the Deck even with the eMMC being used on the current Switch, let alone with 800 MB/s.
 
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Danny said:
How likely is it that Nintendo is delaying Switch 2 due to emulation and piracy concerns?
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Well, we might see something like Dolphin GCN->Wii emulator where the code are cross compatible to each other. Maybe they are trying to prevent that. Who knows, maybe they are redoing the Lotus module to prevent another Mig Switch.
 
ertaboy356b said:
Well, we might see something like Dolphin GCN->Wii emulator where the code are cross compatible to each other. Maybe they are trying to prevent that. Who knows, maybe they are redoing the Lotus module to prevent another Mig Switch.
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They should just bite the bullet and force always online gaming to verify all users every time they play Nintendo games. Sure gamers would hate that but it would kill off the growing piracy scene entirely.
 
heyonme said:
https://news.samsung.com/global/sam...ce-ai?utm_source=nr_twitter&utm_medium=social



Now just who is this mysterious customer...
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Somehow, MicroSDe returned.

You know what? Good. If MicroSDe is possible, that is to say, not being a dead format, it's definitely the most practical choice from a design perspective. No extra reader, no lacking backwards compatibility with MicroSD, just a plain upgrade in the same formfactor.

If, and that was once a big if, and is now a small if, MicroSDe is available it's probably the best choice they could go with. It would certainly be my choice.
 
Danny said:
They should just bite the bullet and force always online gaming to verify all users every time they play Nintendo games. Sure gamers would hate that but it would kill off the growing piracy scene entirely.
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That would be tolerable on a home console (at least for me, very rarely have connection issues at home).

But on a portable, it would kill a lot of the appeal.
 
RennanNT said:
On paper, that SSD is 23 times faster than a micro SD can be on the Deck. In practice, there are bottlenecks preventing games from using that full speed. If you look up for Deck loading times benchmarks in google, the SSD often times doesn't even halves the loading times.

Consoles doesn't have one of the bottlenecks (copying from the general RAM to the GPU's RAM, as they have a unified RAM) and the PS5 and XBS solved another (CPU not being fast enough to decompress game files) using a dedicated hardware for decompression. And the T329 has a decompression hardware too, so chances are that the next Switch would load most games faster than the Deck even with the eMMC being used on the current Switch, let alone with 800 MB/s.
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*T239
 
Danny said:
They should just bite the bullet and force always online gaming to verify all users every time they play Nintendo games. Sure gamers would hate that but it would kill off the growing piracy scene entirely.
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If Nintendo loses the lawsuit, I can imagine they would do so. If you want to solve a problem, you need to go far.
 
fwd-bwd said:
A quick refresher on the microSD Express standard:

emJsRTa.png


On paper, microSD Express may support either PCIe Gen 3 x1 lane (SD7.1) or Gen 4 x1 lane (SD8.0), for the max speed of 985MB/s or 1969MB/s.

NVIDIA’s AGX Orin and Orin NX support PCIe Gen 4, and the Orin Nano supports PCIe Gen 3. I don’t recall if the L4T commit revealed what T239 will support; my money is on Gen 3 though, for power and thermal reasons.

According to the Samsung PR, this new microSD Express card only interfaces with Gen 3, hence the 800MB/s sequential read speed. I’d think that it leaves the door open for a future upgrade to Gen 4 to double the bandwidth.

As already identified by others, the PR made an interesting disclosure that “the development was the result of a successful collaboration with a customer to create a custom product”. I do wonder what could make a product built to an industry standard “custom”?

The answer might lie further down the article: “Dynamic Thermal Guard (DTG) technology maintains the optimum temperature for the SD Express microSD card, even during long usage sessions.” AFAIK, thermal management for SD Express wasn’t introduced until SD9.1. The combination of SD7.1 speed and SD9.1 thermal management just might be the customization that Samsung tailored for this mystery customer.
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I don't think "Dynamic Thermal Guard" is a reference to any SD thermal management spec. It seems to be something Samsung advertise for many/all of their NVMe SSDs, so likely got carried over to their microSD Express controller. I feel like it's custom just by virtue of being something Samsung wouldn't have bothered making without a customer lined up.

It's quite possible that this is for Nintendo, but two things give me a bit of a pause. Firstly, if Switch 2 is launching in March next year, then it would be odd for Samsung to start shipping "custom" microSD Express cards this year, leaving them on the market for months before the only device which supports them launches. It's also a little strange that they've only announced a single capacity. If Switch 2 were launching with a new storage standard, I'd expect there to be enough demand to have a range of capacities available at launch. Having only a single capacity on the market makes me think they might be intended for a product with lower sales expectations, like a drone.

Also, I fully expect T239 to support PCIe 4. Nvidia have supported it in their SoCs since Xavier (Orin Nano is limited to PCIe 3 for binning/product segmentation reasons, but it's the same silicon as Orin), and they were taping out products with PCIe 5 support (Grace) alongside T239, so there'd be very little reason for them to revert back to the PCIe 3 controller they last used on Parker. Particularly so when there are areas, like external storage, where Nintendo could benefit from PCIe 4 speeds.
 
Concernt said:
It's a LOT more complicated than that. But yeah, big companies doing legal stuff is always scary.
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Oh, I’m just responding to the suggestion that Nintendo should go full NYC mayor and quash piracy By Any Means Necessary. It’s certainly more complicated than that in a more general sense, yeah.
 
Thraktor said:
I don't think "Dynamic Thermal Guard" is a reference to any SD thermal management spec. It seems to be something Samsung advertise for many/all of their NVMe SSDs, so likely got carried over to their microSD Express controller. I feel like it's custom just by virtue of being something Samsung wouldn't have bothered making without a customer lined up.

It's quite possible that this is for Nintendo, but two things give me a bit of a pause. Firstly, if Switch 2 is launching in March next year, then it would be odd for Samsung to start shipping "custom" microSD Express cards this year, leaving them on the market for months before the only device which supports them launches. It's also a little strange that they've only announced a single capacity. If Switch 2 were launching with a new storage standard, I'd expect there to be enough demand to have a range of capacities available at launch. Having only a single capacity on the market makes me think they might be intended for a product with lower sales expectations, like a drone.

Also, I fully expect T239 to support PCIe 4. Nvidia have supported it in their SoCs since Xavier (Orin Nano is limited to PCIe 3 for binning/product segmentation reasons, but it's the same silicon as Orin), and they were taping out products with PCIe 5 support (Grace) alongside T239, so there'd be very little reason for them to revert back to the PCIe 3 controller they last used on Parker. Particularly so when there are areas, like external storage, where Nintendo could benefit from PCIe 4 speeds.
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They could be working with Samsung to get the hardware out sooner rather than later. MS is using a standard based interface for their expansion card, but the cost is still high but dropping. Nintendo could be looking to avoid the higher costs that came with the Xbox expansion cards.
 
Danny said:
They don't have any options, it seems they are panicked about Switch 2 getting emulation year 1 so tries to stop it happening before release, if that isn't possible and they lose the lawsuit all bets are off.
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There's zero indication from anywhere that they're pushing the launch date out because they're panicked about switch 2 emulation
 
ertaboy356b said:
Well, we might see something like Dolphin GCN->Wii emulator where the code are cross compatible to each other. Maybe they are trying to prevent that. Who knows, maybe they are redoing the Lotus module to prevent another Mig Switch.
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The Wii's CPU and GPU were essentially slightly upgraded versions of the GC ones - similar to the difference between T210 and T214. The Switch 2 is almost completely different from the Switch 1. That's why backwards compatibility is such a controversial topic. This won't happen.
 
darthdiablo said:
And if I recall correctly, the security flaw was due to them adding something that’s supposed to make T210 more secure? Kinda ironic
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Well i don't know the details of the fuck-up with the OG Switch's components.

But what i do believe is that Nintendo made it very clear to nVidia that this better not happen again if they want to keep up that long-term contract with them.

Jensen prolly told his folks at nVidia that if this would happen again, the people responsible would have to wash and take care of his leatherjackets for the rest of their working life.
 
darthdiablo said:
You mean see if Furukawa lied to shareholders when he said those exact words?

"Furthermore, concerning the preparation of new hardware which takes a long time, it is something that we want to properly plan and proceed with, thus our other businesses (Nintendo Switch, mobile, etc) do not affect our plans for new hardware."
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If you want to take his words literally that's on you. We will see.
 
0
Bonejack said:
I think some of you read too many things into that Yuzu lawsuit.



As long as nVidia doesn't do an "Oooops" again.
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It's still too powerful and different compared to the TX1 either way. Yuzu could reach full speed on stuff as old as 2013 Intel quad-core processors, sure as hell this won't happen with 8 A78 with beefed up caches and that's just the cpu, the easiest part to emulate.
 
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Smash Kirby said:
They could be working with Samsung to get the hardware out sooner rather than later. MS is using a standard based interface for their expansion card, but the cost is still high but dropping. Nintendo could be looking to avoid the higher costs that came with the Xbox expansion cards.
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who knows, maybe Samsung got some camera maker roped in on this as well
 
Danny said:
They should just bite the bullet and force always online gaming to verify all users every time they play Nintendo games. Sure gamers would hate that but it would kill off the growing piracy scene entirely.
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Given that they're selling in countries like Brazil, Nigeria, and South Africa where internet access isn't a given, that would be a huge mistake, especially for a device sold chiefly on its portability. A Tuareg tribesman migrating on camelback from oasis to oasis should be just as capable of getting hit by a bullshit green shell as the rest of us.
 
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oldpuck said:
IPC varies based on clock speed and workload, so it's not apples to apples. But for video game purposes, you can expect A78C to operate about the same as a Zen 2 core at the same clock speed
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But is another point that Switch 2 won’t have any problems with 3P AAA ports but that we know
 
Lancelot said:
It's still too powerful and different compared to the TX1 either way. Yuzu could reach full speed on stuff as old as 2013 Intel quad-core processors, sure as hell this won't happen with 8 A78 with beefed up caches and that's just the cpu, the easiest part to emulate.
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On twitter everyone is arguing that Switch 2 will be so similar to Switch 1 in architecture that it will be so easy for them to move over into Switch 2 emulation, that seems to be why Nintendo is moving against Yuzu now when they have already lost millions in sales to Yuzu over the entire Switch 1 era. It seems most people think Switch 2 emulation will happen even faster than it did with Switch 1. Making a clean break with Switch seems more logical for Nintendo to be honest, don't make Switch 2 backwards compatible with Switch or you will face the same problem the Switch did with emulation.
 
Danny said:
On twitter everyone is arguing that Switch 2 will be so similar to Switch 1 in architecture that it will be so easy for them to move over into Switch 2 emulation, that seems to be why Nintendo is moving against Yuzu now when they have already lost millions in sales to Yuzu over the entire Switch 1 era. It seems most people think Switch 2 emulation will happen even faster than it did with Switch 1. Making a clean break with Switch seems more logical for Nintendo to be honest, don't make Switch 2 backwards compatible with Switch or you will face the same problem the Switch did with emulation.
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That's not how this works.

X1 and the T329 might have the same architecture (ARM), but they're different products.

This is why quite a few people, not neccessarily here, were so bullish on BC. It required a solution to make Switch 1 games compatible.
If they were so "similar / 1:1" that emulation was this compatible, it wouldn't have needed something like this for BC.
 
Danny said:
On twitter everyone is arguing that Switch 2 will be so similar to Switch 1 in architecture that it will be so easy for them to move over into Switch 2 emulation, that seems to be why Nintendo is moving against Yuzu now when they have already lost millions in sales to Yuzu over the entire Switch 1 era. It seems most people think Switch 2 emulation will happen even faster than it did with Switch 1.
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Good thing Twitter represents nothing in terms of real life. They do not have access to the hardware of switch 2 yet, also do not forget switch 1 had the security flaw. So don't fret for now.
And I'd bet my cat's favorite toy on the fact that no Nintendo is not holding the new console in fear of piracy (unless it's something really specific such as if they found a major security flaw right now).
 
Bonejack said:
That's not how this works.

X1 and the T329 might have the same architecture (ARM), but they're different products.

This is why quite a few people, not neccessarily here, were so bullish on BC. It required a solution to make Switch 1 games compatible.
If they were so "similar / 1:1" that emulation was this compatible, it wouldn't have needed something like this for BC.
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The correct term is "bearish". In finance, bullish means you think a stock is going to go up (as a bull attacks upward with its horns) and bearish means you think a stock is going to go down (as a bear attacks downward with its claws).
 
Danny said:
On twitter everyone is arguing that Switch 2 will be so similar to Switch 1 in architecture that it will be so easy for them to move over into Switch 2 emulation, that seems to be why Nintendo is moving against Yuzu now when they have already lost millions in sales to Yuzu over the entire Switch 1 era. It seems most people think Switch 2 emulation will happen even faster than it did with Switch 1. Making a clean break with Switch seems more logical for Nintendo to be honest, don't make Switch 2 backwards compatible with Switch or you will face the same problem the Switch did with emulation.
Click to expand...
The thing is, it's not that similar. Switch 2 cannot run Switch 1 games natively and needs a separate translation layer to even be able to do so, emulation won't be leapfrogged as much as one would think, not to mention the insane hardware specs and low compatibility for a long time because of the massively increased hardware complexity across the board.
 
Danny said:
On twitter everyone is arguing that Switch 2 will be so similar to Switch 1 in architecture that it will be so easy for them to move over into Switch 2 emulation, that seems to be why Nintendo is moving against Yuzu now when they have already lost millions in sales to Yuzu over the entire Switch 1 era. It seems most people think Switch 2 emulation will happen even faster than it did with Switch 1. Making a clean break with Switch seems more logical for Nintendo to be honest, don't make Switch 2 backwards compatible with Switch or you will face the same problem the Switch did with emulation.
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Random people on Twitter aren't the ones that have been pouring over leaked T239 documentation for years. If the tech heads in this thread think Switch 2 emulation ain't happening anytime soon, I believe them.
 
Danny said:
On twitter everyone is arguing that Switch 2 will be so similar to Switch 1 in architecture that it will be so easy for them to move over into Switch 2 emulation, that seems to be why Nintendo is moving against Yuzu now when they have already lost millions in sales to Yuzu over the entire Switch 1 era. It seems most people think Switch 2 emulation will happen even faster than it did with Switch 1. Making a clean break with Switch seems more logical for Nintendo to be honest, don't make Switch 2 backwards compatible with Switch or you will face the same problem the Switch did with emulation.
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Why does what Twitter say have to do with anything? You're in the hardware thread where we literally discuss these types of things and you could easily just ask us here. T239 is almost entirely different from T210 apart from CPU architecture, to the point that Switch 2 will actually have to partially emulate Switch 1 games if it wants to do backwards compatibility.

I feel like the purpose of your recent posts in this thread are to continue the whole Yuzu lawsuit discussion after the other thread was locked.
 
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Danny said:
On twitter everyone is arguing that Switch 2 will be so similar to Switch 1 in architecture that it will be so easy for them to move over into Switch 2 emulation, that seems to be why Nintendo is moving against Yuzu now when they have already lost millions in sales to Yuzu over the entire Switch 1 era. It seems most people think Switch 2 emulation will happen even faster than it did with Switch 1. Making a clean break with Switch seems more logical for Nintendo to be honest, don't make Switch 2 backwards compatible with Switch or you will face the same problem the Switch did with emulation.
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Ah yes Twitter, the beacon of good takes.

/s
 
redmutineer75 said:
The correct term is "bearish". In finance, bullish means you think a stock is going to go up (as a bull attacks upward with its horns) and bearish means you think a stock is going to go down (as a bear attacks downward with its claws).
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Thanks for the correction Shareholder Ch...

Wait, you're not Shareholder Chad!

;]
 
Lancelot said:
The thing is, it's not that similar. Switch 2 cannot run Switch 1 games natively and needs a separate translation layer to even be able to do so, emulation won't be leapfrogged as much as one would think, not to mention the insane hardware specs and low compatibility for a long time because of the massively increased hardware complexity across the board.
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It's actually worth constantly reminding people that we haven't even gotten PS4 emulation down pat yet. There are some games that boot on specific hardware, but they're mostly 2d titles like Undertale, Super Meat Boy, Dead Cells and Sonic Mania. Spine (a Linux emulator) has 4 playable games (Cursed Callista, Deltarune Chapter 1, Undertale and WE ARE DOOMED) with 350 that are "in game" for however much that's worth.

Even on compatibility layers, the best we have is around 259 titles that are ingame or playable, with the most interesting title on that list being Final Fantasy 9... that's the state we're in.

Switch 2 emulation is going to be a pain in the ass, even if we have insane hardware that can handle the load.
 
Danny said:
On twitter everyone is arguing that Switch 2 will be so similar to Switch 1 in architecture that it will be so easy for them to move over into Switch 2 emulation, that seems to be why Nintendo is moving against Yuzu now when they have already lost millions in sales to Yuzu over the entire Switch 1 era. It seems most people think Switch 2 emulation will happen even faster than it did with Switch 1. Making a clean break with Switch seems more logical for Nintendo to be honest, don't make Switch 2 backwards compatible with Switch or you will face the same problem the Switch did with emulation.
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The same Twitter dooming about no bc next generation. That twitter?
 
Meelow said:
Nintendo's not going to wait two months before the console releases.

And no, I don't want to hear "but Holiday!", the whole thing would get leaked.
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Nintendo liking or not, they will have to at least knowledge Switch sucessor is real, Q1 2025 everyone is saying is a target Nintendo is trying to aim to launch it next console, Switch sucessor can easily be delayed to fall 2025/spring 2026, until Nintendo knowledge the console, they can do anything with the console, even anouncing it in one months and 2/3 months later launch the console
 
Danny said:
On twitter everyone is arguing that Switch 2 will be so similar to Switch 1 in architecture that it will be so easy for them to move over into Switch 2 emulation, that seems to be why Nintendo is moving against Yuzu now when they have already lost millions in sales to Yuzu over the entire Switch 1 era. It seems most people think Switch 2 emulation will happen even faster than it did with Switch 1. Making a clean break with Switch seems more logical for Nintendo to be honest, don't make Switch 2 backwards compatible with Switch or you will face the same problem the Switch did with emulation.
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no matter how secure Switch sucessor is, people will always find a way how to emulate Switch sucessor games, this is like a Hydra, you chop some heads, and more stronger heads regrow, in this very moment, Yuzu, Ryuizi and many more emulators, are already working on ways how to emulate Switch sucessor and mod/hack the console too.
 
I think it's important to keep in mind that even if Nvidia fucked up again and some of Yuzu's background remotely applied for T239 emulation... Compatibility is the real concern here, and you can definitely expect it to suck for a long time. Yuzu literally emulating SMO right out of the gate was not a coincidence, if anyone's expecting the same for EPD Tokyo's next thing and all the other exclusives... You're in for quite the wait, especially if Nintendo is shooting for the stars with AAA development and that's why these games are taking forever. There's a lot of (basically) fixed function silicon on there and you bet they're gonna use it by all means necessary, the only thing that could make their lives easier is ModuleSystem behaving in similar ways across releases but... I don't think so.
 
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