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StarTopic Future Nintendo Hardware & Technology Speculation & Discussion |ST| (Read the staff posts before commenting!)

Tons of current gen switch games needs power. Just look at SMT V, if you overclock a Mariko switch, it can run at 60FPS.
Yes, but that just requires overclocked Mariko. He asks if anything requires PS4 power + DLSS. I guess it would have to be one of the few next-gen exclusives? I'm not sure any PS4 games go as low as 720p as is, though if any of the sub-1080p ones are at 30fps then it might need a boost to reach 720p60.
It'll be interesting to see if we start to see art styles converge because of it, the same way UE has a certain "look" that it's various tools seem to push devs to. If DLSS/FSR/XeSS become essential to deliver a triple-A experience (and they will), will their various weakness/strengths be designed to, and how much will that bubble up to saminess in the visual design?
I wouldn't think much? When I think of how these methods affect visuals, it's mostly instances of where things have gone wrong. Objects with trails or obvious ghosting, things like that. But those tend to get fixed in future versions, rather than sticking around so long that games start to be designed with them in mind.
 
I also assume that they’re forking things for 3.0? With 2.X being far more ubiquitous for the foreseeable future its probably still going to have plenty of work done on it - no?

I’m not fussed about the lack of a 3.0. If any meaningful improvements can happen to 2.X, they will.
it won't be a fork. super resolution is the same in 3.0 as it is in 2.0. 3.0 adds new steps for frame generation. hardware that doesn't support frame generation will just not do those extra steps
 
Question for thread:

This piece has been mentioned as an indication that the SoC is in production or very near it.

Were it to start being produced let’s say, next week, would that be any sort of indicator for Nintendo’s release date? ie. They wouldn’t stockpile for more than X months.

Or is it possible that it’s being produced for non-Nintendo devices initially, and we cannot infer anything about Nintendo’s own timelines here?
 
Why, does it require Lovelace?

Yes. More specifically, it's dependent on Lovelace's Optical Flow Accelerator (OFA), which tracks changes between frames to feed into the algorithm. As far as I can tell the rest of the hardware requirements would be the same as DLSS 2.

Edit: As pointed out by @ILikeFeet below, other Nvidia GPUs have actually had OFAs for a while, so this isn't specific for Orin or Drake. Ignore the rest of this post!

However, there's another Nvidia chip already shipping with an OFA: Orin. It's a useful tool in computer vision, so it's relatively unsurprising to see it in a chip designed for automotive and robotic use-cases.

Here's the thing, though: I think Drake has an Optical Flow Accelerator too. Taking a look through some of the L4T source code posted above, let's take a look at hardware_t23x.h and hardware_t239.h, which are header files for the T234 and T239 respectively, containing register definitions for hardware blocks the video driver interacts with. Before diving into them, I should note that they're over a year old now. The T239 file is from last summer, and was removed from the public repo shortly after.

Here's a block from the T239 header file:

Code:
/* sync registers */
#define NV_HOST1X_SYNCPT_NB_PTS 1024
#define NV_HOST1X_NB_MLOCKS     24

#define NV_HOST1X_MLOCK_ID_NVCSI    9
#define NV_HOST1X_MLOCK_ID_ISP        10
#define NV_HOST1X_MLOCK_ID_ISP_THI    11
#define NV_HOST1X_MLOCK_ID_VI        17
#define NV_HOST1X_MLOCK_ID_VI_THI    7
#define NV_HOST1X_MLOCK_ID_VI2        13
#define NV_HOST1X_MLOCK_ID_VI2_THI    14
#define NV_HOST1X_MLOCK_ID_VIC        18
#define NV_HOST1X_MLOCK_ID_NVENC    19
#define NV_HOST1X_MLOCK_ID_NVDEC    20
#define NV_HOST1X_MLOCK_ID_NVJPG    21
#define NV_HOST1X_MLOCK_ID_NVJPG1    16
#define NV_HOST1X_MLOCK_ID_TSEC        22
#define NV_HOST1X_MLOCK_ID_OFA        8

Here's the equivalent block from the T239 header file:

Code:
/* sync registers */
#define NV_HOST1X_SYNCPT_NB_PTS         512
#define NV_HOST1X_NB_MLOCKS             14

#define NV_HOST1X_MLOCK_ID_VIC          8
#define NV_HOST1X_MLOCK_ID_NVENC        9
#define NV_HOST1X_MLOCK_ID_NVDEC        10
#define NV_HOST1X_MLOCK_ID_TSEC         11
#define NV_HOST1X_MLOCK_ID_FDE          12
#define NV_HOST1X_MLOCK_ID_OFA          13

Unsurprisingly, the T239 code is defining far fewer blocks here, as a lot of the automotive-focussed hardware has been removed. We still have NVENC and NVDEC, the Nvidia video encoder and decoder blocks. We also have VIC, which is the video image compositor, which performs various 2D image processing and compositing tasks. There's the TSEC, which I assume is the Tegra security co-processor, and the FDE, which from the acronym I assume is a full-disk encryption block.

Then, at the end, the OFA, or the Optical Flow Accelerator. Still there on T239, even with other components removed.

There are a whole host of reasons this doesn't mean DLSS 3 support, though. Firstly, this is year-old pre-silicon code. Secondly, we have no reason to believe that the OFA in Orin is even comparable to the one in Lovelace, it may not have either the performance or functionality to produce the inputs required for DLSS 3 frame generation. Finally, even if Drake had a compatible OFA, I'm not sure if DLSS 3 would even be feasible on the chip.

More specifically, it seems to me that DLSS 3 is likely to be quite memory and bandwidth intensive. Assuming you're scaling from 1080p to 4K, you have to keep two full 4K frames in memory, feed them into the OFA, write the result back out to memory, and then feed all three of those into the frame generation part of the algorithm, along with motion vectors, depth buffers, etc. Then another 4K frame gets written back into memory. For an RTX 4090 with 1TB/s of bandwidth moving all this data back and forth probably isn't that big of a deal, but for Drake with ~100GB/s of bandwidth it may not even be feasible at all.

Bonus content: It looks like T239 might support SD Express cards, if this commit message is anything to go by. Of course the same seems to be true for both T194 (Xavier) and T234, so it likely has no bearing on Nintendo's decision on what kind of removable storage to use in the new model, but I thought it was interesting nonetheless.
 
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Can’t wait to see RDR2 on Switch Drake. Just thinking how huge news this will be when announced. Never had a Red Dead game on a Nintendo system.

I’d be happy if they followed the same pattern as Switch. Trailer drop in October and big presentation in January.
 
Can’t wait to see RDR2 on Switch Drake. Just thinking how huge news this will be when announced. Never had a Red Dead game on a Nintendo system.

I’d be happy if they followed the same pattern as Switch. Trailer drop in October and big presentation in January.

I still think about how I bought RDR2 for PS4 Pro, opened the case up and never put the disc in. I was overwhelmed at the prospect of tackling the game entirely on TV and never even started it.

Very much looking forward to it on Drake, assuming it happens. Can finally give it a fair shake. I’d be lying if I said some of the discussions about it being boring and tedious from friends didn’t impact my decision to start it the first go around
 
Found this on Github:

Mention of "LPDDR4 8ch" for the "pre silicon" of t239, seems to be from last december so not sure if this is outdated or anything.
As others mentioned, this doesn't reflect final hardware (or even any physical hardware). It also mentions Orin which ultimately used LPDDR5. We don't have explicit confirmation of the RAM type used by Drake*, but LPDDR5 is likely.

* One location in the hack notes that LPDDR5 is used by "T234 and later" which would include Drake, but the way in which it's written isn't definitively specifying so. LPDDR4/5 and LPDDR4X/5X are also generally not distinguished from each other in the hack.

all RTX cards has OFA, but Turing and Ampere's isn't designed for real time gaming, just video
What video capabilities is it actually used for? If it's not useful for either a dedicated console or a Shield TV, then I don't see why it would be kept on T239.

To be clear, I also highly doubt DLSS 3 will be available on the new Switch model, and even if it was technically possible, it will the very at least not support it at launch.
 
Question for thread:

This piece has been mentioned as an indication that the SoC is in production or very near it.

Were it to start being produced let’s say, next week, would that be any sort of indicator for Nintendo’s release date? ie. They wouldn’t stockpile for more than X months.
If they're producing them next week we can probably safely say next October is too late, but right now most people seem to be guessing "between March and May 12", which is a narrow enough time I think it would be hard to read such a hint so specifically. No "They'd definitely be doing this 4 months before launch... 5 is ridiculous!"
 
Just spitballing here but what are the chances that Drake Switch shares somethings in common with Lovelace similar to how both Series X and PS5 carried on RDNA2 features before that was officially on the market. I only ask this because yes the hacked code in the data breach referred to Ampere as the GPU used in T239, but Nvidia themselves also referred to future GPU architectures in the charts as Ampere Next...
roadmapa-nvidia-1.jpg
 
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With this new info confirming a better CPU, does that change anyone‘s opinion on what the screen resolution will be? Maybe 800p like Steam Deck or 900p? It really seems like, based on leaked info, Nintendo really is going for cutting edge tech this time.
for some time I've entertained the thought of a 1080p screen
especially if DLSS runs in handheld mode (this would give a 540 native resolution in handheld mode, which seems like a nice base)
Though sticking to 720 would be fine in my eyes... at this point I bet they go with whatever hits their goals the cheapest
 
Question for thread:

This piece has been mentioned as an indication that the SoC is in production or very near it.

Were it to start being produced let’s say, next week, would that be any sort of indicator for Nintendo’s release date? ie. They wouldn’t stockpile for more than X months.

Or is it possible that it’s being produced for non-Nintendo devices initially, and we cannot infer anything about Nintendo’s own timelines here?
It certainly suggests a 3-4 month timeline, but it's not definitive. We would also want to know how far along the rest of the manufacturing process - the shell itself - was, or what the yields for the SOC are, and what percentage of them are being purchased for Nintendo.
Just spitballing here but what are the chances that Drake Switch shares somethings in common with Lovelace similar to how both Series X and PS5 carried on RDNA2 features before that was officially on the market. I only ask this because yes the hacked code in the data breach referred to Ampere as the GPU used in T239, but Nvidia themselves also referred to future GPU architectures in the charts as Ampere Next...
BlahBlah-Next is how Nvidia tends to refer to "the architecture after BlahBlah" when they're not ready to give it a name.

It's certainly possible that Drake has some Lovelace-ish features, there have been rumors about that for Orin as well, but every indication is that Drake is desktop Ampere B, basically the version of Ampere that was updated for Samsung 8NM.
With this new info confirming a better CPU, does that change anyone‘s opinion on what the screen resolution will be? Maybe 800p like Steam Deck or 900p? It really seems like, based on leaked info, Nintendo really is going for cutting edge tech this time.
I suspect it will be driven by cost. Phones are driving OLED screen manufacturing. I doubt Nintendo would shell out for a custom screen. If they can get a 1080p screen for cheaper or the same as the current 720p screens, that's what they'll use, or if they're worried about supplies of the 720p panels drying up.
 
What video capabilities is it actually used for? If it's not useful for either a dedicated console or a Shield TV, then I don't see why it would be kept on T239.

To be clear, I also highly doubt DLSS 3 will be available on the new Switch model, and even if it was technically possible, it will the very at least not support it at launch.
according to nvidia, frame interpolation, and assisting in object identification

Wait so Drake has OFA technically?

Is this like how Maxwell has Asynch compute but it is really for gaming?
I suspect Drake's optical flow capabilities are no different than Orin or desktop ampere's and is only good for stuff like GeForce Now
 
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Unsurprisingly, the T239 code is defining far fewer blocks here, as a lot of the automotive-focussed hardware has been removed. We still have NVENC and NVDEC, the Nvidia video encoder and decoder blocks.
tfw a console which will likely be marked up @ ~half the price of my laptop has NVENC support but my MX250 dGPU doesn't.
NVIDIA momento...

Speaking of, I mentioned earlier how the current switch's screen recording encodes video footage to h264 (iirc just like recordings on pc using NVENC). Does the switch actually support NVENC or does it use a different technology?
 
It certainly suggests a 3-4 month timeline, but it's not definitive. We would also want to know how far along the rest of the manufacturing process - the shell itself - was, or what the yields for the SOC are, and what percentage of them are being purchased for Nintendo.

BlahBlah-Next is how Nvidia tends to refer to "the architecture after BlahBlah" when they're not ready to give it a name.

It's certainly possible that Drake has some Lovelace-ish features, there have been rumors about that for Orin as well, but every indication is that Drake is desktop Ampere B, basically the version of Ampere that was updated for Samsung 8NM.

I suspect it will be driven by cost. Phones are driving OLED screen manufacturing. I doubt Nintendo would shell out for a custom screen. If they can get a 1080p screen for cheaper or the same as the current 720p screens, that's what they'll use, or if they're worried about supplies of the 720p panels drying up.

I definitely agree that is how they operate in referencing future technologies but considering if T239 is on TSMC's 4nm, would it make sense to just utilize the Lovelace architecture that is already designed on 4N or by bringing over Ampere from Samsung just for this use purpose...
 
There's a 0% chance Nintendo announces the new system this year only to jeopardize Switch sales during the key holiday period.

Stop saying this. Please, it's tiring.

If it's all you're going to contribute in this thread is a drive-by 'it's not happening' then just don't bother.
 
I definitely agree that is how they operate in referencing future technologies but considering if T239 is on TSMC's 4nm, would it make sense to just utilize the Lovelace architecture that is already designed on 4N or by bringing over Ampere from Samsung just for this use purpose...
if they found that it was cost effective or if the gains were worth it, they'd do it. it's something they would have had to take into account early on
 
Stop saying this. Please, it's tiring.

If it's all you're going to contribute in this thread is a drive-by 'it's not happening' then just don't bother.

I'm certainly not saying it's not happening. By all indications it's happening in the spring.

But Nintendo isn't risking holiday sales by announcing it this year.
 
if they found that it was cost effective or if the gains were worth it, they'd do it. it's something they would have had to take into account early on

I've mentioned this before but Nintendo landing into a win win situation where Nvidia are locked into allocated manufacturing volume could benefit this new device. Everyone looking into the EVGA fallout and the overstock of Ampere GPUs + used hardware flooding the market, seems like Nvidia would be in a difficult position to just prefab Lovelace cards and stockpile them (which would probably piss off more AIB partners further vs actually selling product by Nintendo using such volume)...
 
Don't Drake and drive or you'll end up at your ex's house.

More like: don't Drake and drive or you'll end up with a new Switch Pro rumor video on YouTube.
 
tfw a console which will likely be marked up @ ~half the price of my laptop has NVENC support but my MX250 dGPU doesn't.
NVIDIA momento...

Speaking of, I mentioned earlier how the current switch's screen recording encodes video footage to h264 (iirc just like recordings on pc using NVENC). Does the switch actually support NVENC or does it use a different technology?
Most likely the NVENC is what's being used. I haven't heard of any other hardware block for video encoding on the TX1? And using software/the CPU to encode... IMO, not a chance with that CPU.

-

Oh, hey, news of that commit asserting 8 cores/1 cluster was a pleasure to hear. And we're about a month and a half away from the 2 year anniversary of Arm announcing the A78C. I've been trying to will 8 A78C in the next Switch into existence practically since that announcement; today merely emboldens me.
 
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I'm certainly not saying it's not happening. By all indications it's happening in the spring.

But Nintendo isn't risking holiday sales by announcing it this year.
I think you're right but I still bookmarked in preparation to mock you if they do
 
I've mentioned this before but Nintendo landing into a win win situation where Nvidia are locked into allocated manufacturing volume could benefit this new device. Everyone looking into the EVGA fallout and the overstock of Ampere GPUs + used hardware flooding the market, seems like Nvidia would be in a difficult position to just prefab Lovelace cards and stockpile them (which would probably piss off more AIB partners further vs actually selling product by Nintendo using such volume)...
aye, that was my thinking when they made such a huge purchase of wafers. amortizing costs of Drake production in such a big purchase would allow for minimal unused stock and cost savings that AMD is probably getting out of all the 7nm products they put out
 
I'm certainly not saying it's not happening. By all indications it's happening in the spring.

But Nintendo isn't risking holiday sales by announcing it this year.

This is the part that I'm talking about - "It's not happening this year". We have plenty of posts in the thread that discuss how or why it could happen, and definitive statements about what will or won't happen that are completely from the hip just don't belong.

I think you're right but I still bookmarked in preparation to mock you if they do

Trying my hardest not to "Yeah!" this post lol
 
There's a 0% chance Nintendo announces the new system this year only to jeopardize Switch sales during the key holiday period.
I’d agree and say it’s unlikely, but posts like this are kinda funny when we‘re talking about Nintendo here. I remember so many posts saying „BOTW2 is 100% coming out this year“ since 2020.
 
I’d agree and say it’s unlikely, but posts like this are kinda funny when we‘re talking about Nintendo here. I remember so many posts saying „BOTW2 is 100% coming out this year“ since 2020.
I mean, the way I see it is that Nintendo just doesn't gain anything by announcing a new platform in October/November vs January/February, especially if it's not releasing until May anyway with TotK. I can't think of a single reason why they would announce it in a month or two.

However, doing so would put a sizable dent in Switch sales over the holiday period, especially when the Switch is poised to have a massive holiday season with a new generation of Pokemon coming out.

They did announce the Switch in October, but that was a very different situation with a console that was on its last dying breath. I would seriously be floored if Nintendo announced some kind of new platform before the end of the year.

I expect some kind of trailer or hardware themed Direct in January or February.
 
I mean, the way I see it is that Nintendo just doesn't gain anything by announcing a new platform in October/November vs January/February, especially if it's not releasing until May anyway with TotK. I can't think of a single reason why they would announce it in a month or two.

However, doing so would put a sizable dent in Switch sales over the holiday period, especially when the Switch is poised to have a massive holiday season with a new generation of Pokemon coming out.

They did announce the Switch in October, but that was a very different situation with a console that was on it's last dying breath. I would seriously be floored if Nintendo announced some kind of new platform before the end of the year.
Yeah it was definitely a completely different situation, I agree. Leaks were everywhere and the fans were really starving. I think it depends on launch timing. If they plan to release it in let’s say March, there might be a chance that we get a late 2022 reveal. A big showcase with new games, some of them coming to the OG Switch as well could also build up hype, while people that don’t know about stuff like this wouldn’t care either way this holiday and buy the current model.

But I think it’s much more likely that, as you say, they‘ll wait until the holiday period is over. It just makes too much sense, especially when it’s launching later than March. The only thing that makes me hesitant is that it could be leaked once it’s in production, but who knows how Nintendo wants to tackle this.
 
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Im way too hyped to read through all the new pages, so if someone can be so nice to tell/explain to me, do we have absolute proof that New Hardware for Nintendo should be finalized and entering production soon?
 
I think he was guessing. Launching with BOTW2 in May does make sense, but I'm not sure. I don't think we're in any position to guess a release date yet.
It'd be really neat if this whole thing worked on Game Boy Color Dual Mode or SuperGrafx rules (at least how Darius Plus worked anyway) where the game works just fine on base hardware but has hooks for the enhanced/successor version, though I know the idea was scoffed a few times in the thread. I just like the idea of Nintendo's NX idea being a continuous platform and consoles like the Switch are just part of that ecosystem.

Still would suck for early adopters or Mariko/LED adopters feeling like they got shafted but hey, if they can make it work, I'm all for it.
 
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Im way too hyped to read through all the new pages, so if someone can be so nice to tell/explain to me, do we have absolute proof that New Hardware for Nintendo should be finalized and entering production soon?

No, not yet. But things are getting spicy
 
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I've mentioned this before but Nintendo landing into a win win situation where Nvidia are locked into allocated manufacturing volume could benefit this new device. Everyone looking into the EVGA fallout and the overstock of Ampere GPUs + used hardware flooding the market, seems like Nvidia would be in a difficult position to just prefab Lovelace cards and stockpile them (which would probably piss off more AIB partners further vs actually selling product by Nintendo using such volume)...
aye, that was my thinking when they made such a huge purchase of wafers. amortizing costs of Drake production in such a big purchase would allow for minimal unused stock and cost savings that AMD is probably getting out of all the 7nm products they put out
There's a rumour about Nvidia asking TSMC to quickly mass produce more A100 and H100 GPUs for customers in China before the US sanctions take effect, which is around March of 2023 for the A100 GPUs and September of 2023 for the H100 GPUs. (And I do think there's definitely grains of truth to the rumour, especially with Nvidia being negatively affected by the US sanctions.)

So I still believe TSMC's N6 process node's still a possibility for Drake, especially if Nvidia prioritising H100 GPUs and Ada GPUs for TSMC's 4N process node, which I believe is the case.
 
are there any benefits in using 8 cores in 1 Cluster vs 8 at the same speed but in 2 Clusters as 4+4 for example ? i mean will this affect performance ? or make easier for developers to deal with ? or maybe it has any benefits in power drain ?
 
are there any benefits in using 8 cores in 1 Cluster vs 8 at the same speed but in 2 Clusters as 4+4 for example ? i mean will this affect performance ? or make easier for developers to deal with ? or maybe it has any benefits in power drain ?
I imagine having more than one CPU cluster could increase latency since I imagine more CPU clusters means more hardware components to communicate with.
 
are there any benefits in using 8 cores in 1 Cluster vs 8 at the same speed but in 2 Clusters as 4+4 for example ? i mean will this affect performance ? or make easier for developers to deal with ? or maybe it has any benefits in power drain ?
having multiple clusters mean potential latency penalties. with a uniform cache, data doesn't have to make trips to access data, nor do you need redundant data to minimize penalties
 
With this new info confirming a better CPU, does that change anyone‘s opinion on what the screen resolution will be? Maybe 800p like Steam Deck or 900p? It really seems like, based on leaked info, Nintendo really is going for cutting edge tech this time.
720p.

Those others would just be custom orders.

There's a 0% chance Nintendo announces the new system this year only to jeopardize Switch sales during the key holiday period.
So true, that’s why they announced the 3DS when the DS was selling well.

And let a whole year die.

I wouldn’t say it’s 0%, but it’s closer to it for me.

I personally think a Jan/Feb for May could work, if not a summer reveal for a Fall.

But this assumes Nintendo wants to kill the switch, which they gain nothing from it I think.

I’d agree and say it’s unlikely, but posts like this are kinda funny when we‘re talking about Nintendo here. I remember so many posts saying „BOTW2 is 100% coming out this year“ since 2020.
I remember getting yelled at when I said the game will get delayed with “nah that is not happening at all, it’s 100% this year”

And then I got yelled again when I said it wasn’t for this fiscal year and people were like “you do
nate said first half of 2023 so surely with botw2
Probably.

It really doesn't make sense to put Drake in a dock. It'd basically just be a separate console.
I don’t think that’s what they meant.
 
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