StarTopic Future Nintendo Hardware & Technology Speculation & Discussion |ST| (Read the staff posts before commenting!)

[Dekuman]

Digital Foundry talk about the possible Switch sucessor techinal/graphical perfomance

This is more or less where i think it lands.
RAW flops is around 8th gen, but actual 'rendering power' as Oliver puts it, will be well above them, not based on hopes on dreams, but actual leaks info. Granted the caveat here is we're hearing 2nd/3rd hand info and DF nor anyone directly talking about it publicly has actually seen it's performance.

A lot of people online hear 8th gen and immediately assume it's a portable PS4, just as Switch was assumed to be a potable 360. Switch ended up punching well above its weight only on the backs of nvidia's APIs and a much more modern architecture and a lot more RAM. Many of Switch's impossible ports would not and could not run on 360/PS3 because of RAM alone.

I suspect Switch 2 will be just like that, but even more so as the leaked specs suggest a much closer gap to the 9th gen than Switch was to the 8th gen brick consoles and Ampere is a fundamentally superior and more modern architecture.

 

[Rokka]

The point of using hardware-assisted AI upscaling is because it’s better. If FSR3 can bring Xenoblade 4 to 30 fps, then DLSS 3.5 should bring it to 40 fps with even better image quality. In almost every single test, DLSS is better than FSR.

The only reason these devices use FSR is because they have no other option. This circles back to the discussion of Nintendo “having no choice”. They chose DLSS, which is the better solution.

You know that DLSS 3.5 doesn't include Frame Generation in it requirments (DLSS 3 ≠ DLSS 3.5)

 

[Deleted member 1978]

I'm arguing that it should be Switch 2. I'm also arguing that Nintendo doesn't really do that for inexplicable reasons.

The Wii U is over a decade old at this point, and that shouldn't be used as a suitable basis for determining what Nintendo does next when those predictions are contradicted by their more recent actions.

Breath of the Wild was an abandonment of many notable Zelda conventions that was built over the franchise's history in favor of far more successful reinvention. It is a demonstration that has continued on in Nintendo's later Switch releases that shows Nintendo is not afraid to let go of their previous practices if doing so is ultimately more successful. Naming is an especially important thing to get right since it's how the product is recognized, and there isn't any practical reason for Nintendo to use a different naming convention.

 

[Semi Lazy Gamer]

This is more or less where i think it lands.
RAW flops is around 8th gen, but actual 'rendering power' as Oliver puts it, will be well above them, not based on hopes on dreams, but actual leaks info. Granted the caveat here is we're hearing 2nd/3rd hand info and DF nor anyone directly talking about it publicly has actually seen it's performance.

A lot of people online hear 8th gen and immediately assume it's a portable PS4, just as Switch was assumed to be a potable 360. Switch ended up punching well above its weight only on the backs of nvidia's APIs and a much more modern architecture and a lot more RAM. Many of Switch's impossible ports would not and could not run on 360/PS3 because of RAM alone.

I suspect Switch 2 will be just like that, but even more so as the leaked specs suggest a much closer gap to the 9th gen than Switch was to the 8th gen brick consoles

I think the best way to think of it is to think of portable mode being a portable PS4/XBO. Docked can only go up.

 

[bmfrosty]

The Wii U is over a decade old at this point, and that shouldn't be used as a suitable basis for determining what Nintendo does next when those predictions are contradicted by their more recent actions.

Breath of the Wild was an abandonment of many notable Zelda conventions that was built over the franchise's history in favor of far more successful reinvention. It is a demonstration that has continued on in Nintendo's later Switch releases that shows Nintendo is not afraid to let go of their previous practices if doing so is ultimately more successful. Naming is an especially important thing to get right since it's how the product is recognized, and there isn't any practical reason for Nintendo to use a different naming convention.

That's the joke!

 

[Machrider]

Has Nintendo ever put a 2 in a hardware product name except for the 2DS? Yes I'm being facetious, except at a small level where it appears that just putting a 2 after the name hasn't ever been something that Nintendo has done, even when it would have made an insane amount of sense like with calling it the Wii 2 instead of the Wii U.

Starting with the NES, no.

That said, we also have to consider Nintendo has a new president and even the head of their hardware division from the NES/SNES/N64/GCN/Wii/Wii U eras has officially retired.

Maybe the newer generation of Nintendo execs will be OK with the name Switch 2. I dunno, they don't pay me to be part of their marketing division, so that's their paid people in charge of that to get it right.

 

[Machrider]

This is more or less where i think it lands.
RAW flops is around 8th gen, but actual 'rendering power' as Oliver puts it, will be well above them, not based on hopes on dreams, but actual leaks info. Granted the caveat here is we're hearing 2nd/3rd hand info and DF nor anyone directly talking about it publicly has actually seen it's performance.

A lot of people online hear 8th gen and immediately assume it's a portable PS4, just as Switch was assumed to be a potable 360. Switch ended up punching well above its weight only on the backs of nvidia's APIs and a much more modern architecture and a lot more RAM. Many of Switch's impossible ports would not and could not run on 360/PS3 because of RAM alone.

I suspect Switch 2 will be just like that, but even more so as the leaked specs suggest a much closer gap to the 9th gen than Switch was to the 8th gen brick consoles and Ampere is a fundamentally superior and more modern architecture.

We can already see this with Steam Deck. It's "only 1.6 teraflops" yet it can run a fairly reasonable version of Ratchet & Clank Rift Apart which the PS4 can't (or well Sony doesn't want it to anyway) as the Digital Foundry video points out.

And keep in mind this PC port of Rift Apart isn't that great (has some issues, think Sony is just fine with the PC versions being not quite as good as the PS5 version). It's not optimized for that hardware really either.

If you had a dedicated dev team sit down and port the game with good optimization specific for Steam Deck hardware, it probably could run at 40+ fps at medium settings on Steam Deck without much fuss, if it had DLSS, well take that 720p resolution all the way up to 1440p or even 4K.

 

[Caladbolg]

Now many are starting to call it Nintendo Switch 2, coincidence or something more?

Coincidence I say. Earlier in the year it was “Switch Pro” before DF said it had been cancelled in favor of just going forward with a next gen system.

 

[Deleted member 1978]

That's the joke!

This punchline has been repeated many times in similar discussions with absolute sincerity, so I apologize if I didn't consider your comment as a joke. The notion that "Nintendo does weird things that nobody can explain" hasn't actually been true for some time now, but an impression built over years of Wii/DS (and I'd argue that most decisions not named the Wii U made sense) is admittedly difficult to let go.

 

[Serif]

Nintendo learned many hard lessons from the Wii U. The Switch marketing has been a complete 180. There hasn't been any real confusion surrounding existing Switch products. I doubt there is some mandate at Nintendo to not use numbers.

Names are a form of creative expression, sure, but it won't matter if people are confused and as a result, don't buy the product. This isn't some value judgment - if you don't follow video games, you're not going to be immediately sure about details like whether or not Switch games work on the Switch Lite, or if the current Switch supports 4K, both real questions I've heard. Consider that Nintendo didn't give the OLED model a name like 'Switch Vivid' or whatever, the name is clear as day.

Especially when this new device is meant to be the driving force for the next generation of Nintendo, and there is no other device to fall back on. Doesn't seem worth risking just to have some wacky name that people think Nintendo would go for when it doesn't reflect their recent decision making.

 

[Thraktor]

people have been bigging up nurbs back in the ps2 days and that shit never panned out

NURBS never made sense in rasterised graphics pipelines. If you have to tesselate it into triangles before rendering, then you may as well just store the triangles.

That said, I wonder if we're going to see hardware acceleration of ray tracing intersection for curved primitives at any point in the coming years. Ray tracing, in theory, can work with arbitrarily complex shapes, but if you want to run it in real time, you need to be able to design dedicated hardware to test "does this ray intersect with this surface". For all current hardware, the only surface type they support are triangles, in part because accelerated computer graphics is already built around triangles, but also because it's possible to design a small, fast circuit that tells you if a ray intersects with a triangle, so you can perform a very large number of tests a second.

There's no rule that intersection tests can only be performed against triangles, though. Highly flexible spline-based surfaces like NURBS aren't a good fit here, as calculating intersection tests against them is extremely complex. Simpler primitives make more sense, as they would be easier to test against, and you could break up more complex shapes into several simple primitives. Spheres are another shape that are easy to calculate ray intersection against (hence why all those early ray tracing demos used spheres), so spherical sections (ie pieces of a sphere) might be a good option.

One potential issue there, though, is the join between adjacent primitives. For triangles, this is simple, as each side of a triangle is a straight line, so you can easily achieve a clean join with no gaps between adjacent triangles. For spherical sections, they will only line up precisely if they're part of the same sphere, so you may need to resort to awkward compromises like having the primitives overlap with each other to prevent gaps. Making sure your curved surface primitive is capable of aligning seamlessly with other curved surface primitives (and flat triangles too) likely rules out most shapes that are easy to perform intersection testing against, though, like spheres, cones and cylinders.

The ideal solution would probably be something like 2nd order (quadratic) Bezier triangles, which have the benefit of being a generalisation of the existing triangle primitive (a first order Bezier triangle is a flat triangle). Even though these are probably the simplest form of spline-based surface primitive, ray intersection tests against them are likely still far too complex to perform in real-time for a large number of rays.

My guess is that, with the ability to push triangle counts higher, and the existence of techniques like virtualised geometry which can efficiently manage LoD, the industry will probably stick with triangles almost exclusively even after rasterisation is dropped altogether. That said, I'd be very curious to see if one of the GPU design teams out there takes a chance on some kind of new curved primitive type in the next decade or so.

 

[Machrider]

I think Super Switch will work as the successor's name.

I doesn't have to be just Switch 2.

They will have to market it well, but that's a given no matter what the name is. You have to put in work on the marketing side every new generation, just is what it is. No short cuts.

 

[VagrantValmar]

This is a sound argument, but the real issue lies in the long term. What happens when a system's respective storefront shuts down permanently? We've already seen examples with the Wii Shop, PSN, and the upcoming 360 store. We have no guarantee that these current storefronts will stick around for years to come. Perhaps this all-digital future will ensure that they don't shutdown after a decade and they stick around and form an ecosystem that transcends console generations. Until that becomes a guaranteed reality, I wouldn't put too stick to digital only, regardless of how enticing it may be.

At least there's still a market for physical and I don't see that going away anytime soon.

Stores closing down doesn't mean you can't re-download your games. You can still download wii shop games.
However, that does mean future gamers won't have the option to get the game at all (unless you sail the high seas which is honestly already a necessity even without an all digital future)

 

[ILikeFeet]

NURBS never made sense in rasterised graphics pipelines. If you have to tesselate it into triangles before rendering, then you may as well just store the triangles.

That said, I wonder if we're going to see hardware acceleration of ray tracing intersection for curved primitives at any point in the coming years. Ray tracing, in theory, can work with arbitrarily complex shapes, but if you want to run it in real time, you need to be able to design dedicated hardware to test "does this ray intersect with this surface". For all current hardware, the only surface type they support are triangles, in part because accelerated computer graphics is already built around triangles, but also because it's possible to design a small, fast circuit that tells you if a ray intersects with a triangle, so you can perform a very large number of tests a second.

There's no rule that intersection tests can only be performed against triangles, though. Highly flexible spline-based surfaces like NURBS aren't a good fit here, as calculating intersection tests against them is extremely complex. Simpler primitives make more sense, as they would be easier to test against, and you could break up more complex shapes into several simple primitives. Spheres are another shape that are easy to calculate ray intersection against (hence why all those early ray tracing demos used spheres), so spherical sections (ie pieces of a sphere) might be a good option.

One potential issue there, though, is the join between adjacent primitives. For triangles, this is simple, as each side of a triangle is a straight line, so you can easily achieve a clean join with no gaps between adjacent triangles. For spherical sections, they will only line up precisely if they're part of the same sphere, so you may need to resort to awkward compromises like having the primitives overlap with each other to prevent gaps. Making sure your curved surface primitive is capable of aligning seamlessly with other curved surface primitives (and flat triangles too) likely rules out most shapes that are easy to perform intersection testing against, though, like spheres, cones and cylinders.

The ideal solution would probably be something like 2nd order (quadratic) Bezier triangles, which have the benefit of being a generalisation of the existing triangle primitive (a first order Bezier triangle is a flat triangle). Even though these are probably the simplest form of spline-based surface primitive, ray intersection tests against them are likely still far too complex to perform in real-time for a large number of rays.

My guess is that, with the ability to push triangle counts higher, and the existence of techniques like virtualised geometry which can efficiently manage LoD, the industry will probably stick with triangles almost exclusively even after rasterisation is dropped altogether. That said, I'd be very curious to see if one of the GPU design teams out there takes a chance on some kind of new curved primitive type in the next decade or so.

if anything, the next step is accelerating testing for signed distance fields. it's already commonly used for non-triangle RT

 

[redmutineer75]

Maybe if they make their own proprietary DLSS version, they’ll call it something like “Super Power Resolution” as a marketing thing, e.g. “Super Nintendo Switch uses Super Power Resolution technology”. If they’re going to repeat a 90s name, they may as well repeat 90s marketing gimmicks.

 

[Raccoon]

I'm genuinely expecting some landmark court case in the next ten years that sets a precedent that once a digital copy of a game can no longer be redownloaded by legal owners it's free game for piracy

edit: god damn it I got baited into talking about not-hardware in the hardware thread

to make it more relevant: digital only is the future but if BC is technically possible on this thing I'm expecting them to keep the slot for now. lord knows they'll have enough space

 

[Giancarlo]

Maybe if they make their own proprietary DLSS version, they’ll call it something like “Super Power Resolution” as a marketing thing, e.g. “Super Nintendo Switch uses Super Power Resolution technology”. If they’re going to repeat a 90s name, they may as well repeat 90s marketing gimmicks.

Nintendo Switch sucessor now you playing with hybrid, hybrid power

 

[AngryAlchemist]

I'd like to ask credibility of this guy

I'm so tired of seeing this dude's chest

 

[VagrantValmar]

Are we back to discussing the name of the device yet again?

 

[Machrider]

Another test case of FSR3 on Rog Ally basically doing what I've been asking for (15-20 fps boost). If there is a latency problem this guy doesn't seem to mention it.

I'm guessing on Nvidia cards, FSR 3.0 doesn't use the Tensor cores at all? That's why I wonder if Nintendo or Nvidia could make a comparable or better alternative to this specifically for the Switch 2 hardware. It doesn't have to be 40-series GPU DLSS 3.5 levels of good, but this does to me look significantly smoother both times when he turned on FSR3 versus the native frame rate.

 

[KeijiKG]

so FF7R aside, what could Square port to NG Switch be it an old game or a new game?

I'm personally thinking of a native version KH1-3, Nier Replicant, FF14 (yes, serious here) & Stranger of Paradise complete edition

No idea if those are actually happening or not, or whether or not they're likely but i think those would a good step if Square wants to port something there (for the record i'm aware Nate & Necro said 7R isn't happening right now, but no idea if they know some other stuff (minus DQ) is happening there)

The 3rd Birthday

FF13 as a trilogy

Star Ocean 3-6

HD2D Treasure Conflix

 

[RailWays]

I'd like to ask credibility of this guy

Has he gotten any scoops since PSASBR?

 

[ILikeFeet]

Maybe if they make their own proprietary DLSS version, they’ll call it something like “Super Power Resolution” as a marketing thing, e.g. “Super Nintendo Switch uses Super Power Resolution technology”. If they’re going to repeat a 90s name, they may as well repeat 90s marketing gimmicks.

I can't see them calling it anything. Nintendo doesn't advertise techniques like that

 

[LiC]

Just vaguely referring back to things said on previous page, there is a possibility that Nintendo's marketing and scheduling will have to adapt to an increased number of notable third-party releases -- but also even their own releases, as they scale up their development capacity, which we've heard a lot about. So that marketing and planning adaptation may happen regardless.

Also, I generally don't care or have strong opinions about the name, but one reason it could be neat if it were named Switch 2 is, they could update the logo so it clicks twice. First a lower version of the original click sound, then a higher pitched one following it, like someone saying "Switch 2." Click-clack!

 

[Hermii]

Another test case of FSR3 on Rog Ally basically doing what I've been asking for (15-20 fps boost). If there is a latency problem this guy doesn't seem to mention it.

I'm guessing on Nvidia cards, FSR 3.0 doesn't use the Tensor cores at all? That's why I wonder if Nintendo or Nvidia could make a comparable or better alternative to this specifically for the Switch 2 hardware. It doesn't have to be 40-series GPU DLSS 3.5 levels of good, but this does to me look significantly smoother both times when he turned on FSR3 versus the native frame rate.

1. Making a comparable version of it would be a waste of time. Devs can just use fsr3, it's open source. They can even use it in combination with dlss. As far as I know, FsR doesn't have some inherent advantage on AMD gpus. Nvidia wants to sell Lovelace Gpus.

2. The way the technology works, it does add latency even though this guy doesn't focus on it.

 

[ILikeFeet]

Some of the latency tests I've seen, there's not much added, but the quality is shot

And the reaction to fsr fg is just more evidence of people not being able to tell bad IQ to save their lives

 

[Deleted member 887]

Another test case of FSR3 on Rog Ally basically doing what I've been asking for (15-20 fps boost). If there is a latency problem this guy doesn't seem to mention it.

I'm guessing on Nvidia cards, FSR 3.0 doesn't use the Tensor cores at all? That's why I wonder if Nintendo or Nvidia could make a comparable or better alternative to this specifically for the Switch 2 hardware. It doesn't have to be 40-series GPU DLSS 3.5 levels of good, but this does to me look significantly smoother both times when he turned on FSR3 versus the native frame rate

Rog Ally is 2 pieces of hardware, and this video doesn't say which they're using. The one that is twice as powerful as the NG, or the one that is 6 times as powerful.

Yes, a good frame gen solution on a handheld would be great. The current version of the technology isn't usable on Switch NG. I get that you want it, but it is beyond the technology at this moment, and likely will be for a while.

 

[Machrider]

1. Making a comparable version of it would be a waste of time. Devs can just use fsr3, it's open source. They can even use it in combination with dlss. As far as I know, FsR doesn't have some inherent advantage on AMD gpus. Nvidia wants to sell Lovelace Gpus.

2. The way the technology works, it does add latency even though this guy doesn't focus on it.

I think we shouldn't be naive enough to think that isn't a major factor (probably the major factor). Nvidia needs to lock features behind successive hardware generations, otherwise why bother buying a new GPU every 2 years.

The 40 series even as is, even with frame generation locked out of 20/30 series cards are selling poorly. GPU sales have really gone downwards since the crypto bubble burst, luckily for Nvidia they just jumped on the AI bubble.

It just seems to me like fine you can use FSR3, open source all that. Great. It just seems like a waste of hardware though to have those tensor cores just sitting there doing nothing if FSR3 doesn't utilize that hardware. Perhaps Nintendo or Nvidia could come up with some kind of even better version of that and incorporate it together with the DLSS and/or whatever Nintendo's proprietary DLSS fork is.

 

[Deleted member 887]

I think we shouldn't be naive enough to think that isn't a major factor. Nvidia needs to lock features behind successive hardware generations, otherwise why bother buying a new GPU.

I don't think you're wrong exactly, but it's been tested. You can force DLSS FG to run on RTX 30 series hardware, it just falls apart. It really does need the OFA in the 40 series to run well.

 

[Serif]

Shower thought related to names... the Game Boy Advance could have been called either Super Game Boy or Game Boy 2, but the Super Game Boy and the Super Game Boy 2 already existed.

I'd say they ended up with a much cooler name, though.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

The point of using hardware-assisted AI upscaling is because it’s better. If FSR3 can bring Xenoblade 4 to 30 fps, then DLSS 3.5 should bring it to 40 fps with much better image quality. In almost every single test, DLSS is better than FSR.

The only reason these devices use FSR is because they have no other option. This circles back to the discussion of Nintendo “having no choice”. They chose DLSS, which is the better solution.

...... DLSS frame generation requires hardware the Switch 2 likely does not have.

 

[9-Volt]

A lot of people online hear 8th gen and immediately assume it's a portable PS4, just as Switch was assumed to be a potable 360. Switch ended up punching well above its weight only on the backs of nvidia's APIs and a much more modern architecture and a lot more RAM. Many of Switch's impossible ports would not and could not run on 360/PS3 because of RAM alone.

But the important thing here is how easy, fast and cheap the porting process will be. While Switch got some miracle ports from western publishers, Japanese ones hardly bothered. Square only did two (DQ11 was Nintendo's special request), Namco never ported in house titles, none of the PS4 Capcom titles made to Switch natively and Sega was incredibly picky.

The successor needs to allow porting of the games without the need of an external studio. It needs to be instantaneous, like XSS gets its own version of games. If a PS4 level console with DLSS manages to do that, that's gonna be a massive win.

 

[Hermii]

It just seems to me like fine you can use FSR3, open source all that. Great. It just seems like a waste of hardware though to have those tensor cores just sitting there doing nothing if FSR3 doesn't utilize that hardware. Perhaps Nintendo or Nvidia could come up with some kind of even better version of that and incorporate it together with the DLSS and/or whatever Nintendo's proprietary DLSS fork is.

Did you read what I said? Devs can use FSR frame generation in combination with DLSS upscaling. The tensor cores woudnt be doing nothing, they would be doing DLSS. Best of both worlds.

There is little reason to think Nvidia frame generation without the Lovelace OFA would be significantly better than what FSR 3 offers.

 

[kvetcha]

Shower thought related to names... the Game Boy Advance could have been called either Super Game Boy or Game Boy 2, but the Super Game Boy and the Super Game Boy 2 already existed.

I'd say they ended up with a much cooler name, though.

#TeamSwitchAdvance

 

[Dekuman]

But the important thing here is how easy, fast and cheap the porting process will be. While Switch got some miracle ports from western publishers, Japanese ones hardly bothered. Square only did two (DQ11 was Nintendo's special request), Namco never ported in house titles, none of the PS4 Capcom titles made to Switch natively and Sega was incredibly picky.

The successor needs to allow porting of the games without the need of an external studio. It needs to be instantaneous, like XSS gets its own version of games. If a PS4 level console with DLSS manages to do that, that's gonna be a massive win.

yeah if it is NVN2 and nvidia is handling the dev tools i think it will be smooth if not smoother than Switch development.

 

[Machrider]

Did you read what I said? Devs can use FSR frame generation in combination with DLSS upscaling. The tensor cores woudnt be doing nothing, they would be doing DLSS. Best of both worlds.

There is little reason to think Nvidia frame generation without the Lovelace OFA would be significantly better than what FSR 3 offers.

Well that might be interesting, no? Tensor cores doing DLSS upscaling and there being a frame generation set up on top of that?

I mean I don't think such a potential setup is necessarily insignificant.

Because from the video posted there, the frame rate, while I'm not saying it's perfect or as good as the Nvidia OFA frame generation by any means, both games looked significantly smoother in frame rate both times the guy applied it.

 

[redmutineer75]

Rog Ally is 2 pieces of hardware, and this video doesn't say which they're using. The one that is twice as powerful as the NG, or the one that is 6 times as powerful.

Yes, a good frame gen solution on a handheld would be great. The current version of the technology isn't usable on Switch NG. I get that you want it, but it is beyond the technology at this moment, and likely will be for a while.

How do we know that the ROG Ally is twice as powerful (Z1 model) or 6 times as powerful (Z1 Extreme model) as the NG? Just as an example, T239 has twice as many shader cores as the Z1 Extreme and 6 times as many as the Z1. I'm not sure why the gap should be that large between them.

 

[Machrider]

How do we know that the ROG Ally is twice as powerful (Z1 model) or 6 times as powerful (Z1 Extreme model) as the NG? Just as an example, T239 has twice as many shader cores as the Z1 Extreme and 6 times as many as the Z1. I'm not sure why the gap should be that large between them.

I believe the guy in the video I posted has the lower end ROG model.

This guy seems to have the higher end model, he's getting a frame boost into the 70s which is better than what that other guy was getting, the game also looks like its running at 900p while the other version I think was 720p.

 

[Rogue Agent]

Also, I generally don't care or have strong opinions about the name, but one reason it could be neat if it were named Switch 2 is, they could update the logo so it clicks twice. First a lower version of the original click sound, then a higher pitched one following it, like someone saying "Switch 2." Click-clack!

That's a great idea.

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

I think we shouldn't be naive enough to think that isn't a major factor (probably the major factor). Nvidia needs to lock features behind successive hardware generations, otherwise why bother buying a new GPU every 2 years.

So why not continue that with Ray Reconstruction? If it worked well enough to be viable on 20/30 cards, wouldn't it have been a waste of resources to boost the Optical Flow Accelerator so much for the 40 cards?

It just seems to me like fine you can use FSR3, open source all that. Great. It just seems like a waste of hardware though to have those tensor cores just sitting there doing nothing if FSR3 doesn't utilize that hardware. Perhaps Nintendo or Nvidia could come up with some kind of even better version of that and incorporate it together with the DLSS and/or whatever Nintendo's proprietary DLSS fork is.

I've heard people suggest similar things before. Like, when FSR2 was a new thing, people wondering if it could be made even faster on RTX cards through the tensor cores. But either FSR was already fast enough it wouldn't have produced any humanly noticeable speed advantage, or it just doesn't make much sense to force tensor cores to do work that wasn't designed around tensor cores.

 

[Multiverse]

You know that DLSS 3.5 doesn't include Frame Generation in it requirments (DLSS 3 ≠ DLSS 3.5)

...... DLSS frame generation requires hardware the Switch 2 likely does not have.

I wasn’t talking about Frame Generation. DLSS is superior. Nothing will change my mind (or Nintendo’s).

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

I wasn’t talking about Frame Generation. DLSS is superior. Nothing will change my mind (or Nintendo’s).

You were talking about FSR with frame generation getting to 30 fps, and expecting DLSS without frame generation to reach 40?

 

[Multiverse]

You were talking about FSR with frame generation getting to 30 fps, and expecting DLSS without frame generation to reach 40?

Make it 60 with better image quality and ray tracing, well yes.

 

[Maxrunner]

Rog Ally is 2 pieces of hardware, and this video doesn't say which they're using. The one that is twice as powerful as the NG, or the one that is 6 times as powerful.

Yes, a good frame gen solution on a handheld would be great. The current version of the technology isn't usable on Switch NG. I get that you want it, but it is beyond the technology at this moment, and likely will be for a while.

I doubt there's any portable device that is 6 time as powerful as Ng.

 

[justanotherperson]

What do you guys think of Nintendo adopting a neumorphic design (like macOS, apparently), instead of the flat design on current iterations, for the successor's UI, being a middle-ground in between the Wii U and the current approach to UI design? What do you guys want to see in the next iteration of Horizon OS (that has not been said already)? I think it would be neat if the unused buttons were used as shortcuts to pages like the eShop, and if the UI was more 3D, had more depth in general.



*Mockups by me

 

[KeijiKG]

Maybe if they make their own proprietary DLSS version, they’ll call it something like “Super Power Resolution” as a marketing thing, e.g. “Super Nintendo Switch uses Super Power Resolution technology”. If they’re going to repeat a 90s name, they may as well repeat 90s marketing gimmicks.

The most we'd see is a developer confirming its usage or even a mention in a splash screen. It's not that much of a selling point to common folk.

 

[Concernt]

What do you guys think of Nintendo adopting a neumorphic design (like macOS, apparently), instead of the flat design on current iterations, for the successor's UI, being a middle-ground in between the Wii U and the current approach to UI design? What do you guys want to see in the next iteration of Horizon OS (that has not been said already)? I think it would be neat if the unused buttons were used as shortcuts to pages like the eShop, and if the UI was more 3D, had more depth in general.



*Mockups by me

I'd hate it! But those are some high quality mock-ups.

 

[ns156]

What do you guys think of Nintendo adopting a neumorphic design (like macOS, apparently), instead of the flat design on current iterations, for the successor's UI, being a middle-ground in between the Wii U and the current approach to UI design? What do you guys want to see in the next iteration of Horizon OS (that has not been said already)? I think it would be neat if the unused buttons were used as shortcuts to pages like the eShop, and if the UI was more 3D, had more depth in general.



*Mockups by me

I hate this stupid flat trend to everything that Google created.

Bring back the gradients. The Wii interface was sick.

 

[LiC]

Here are the relevant things I could find in the court document, with some attempt at identifying at least what other documents are being referenced. Thank you @P4bl0 for pointing some of these out. I want to organize them here because I've seen various screenshots bouncing around without context or links to the source.

One thing to note is that this document was written and submitted by Microsoft's lawyers, not the judge as I've seen one post incorrectly state. The judge's last statement was the order denying the FTC's injunction. This document comes after the order and is Microsoft's proposed findings and conclusions.

Page 57: Microsoft and Nintendo's agreement is described as bringing CoD "to Switch (and any successor Nintendo consoles)". Note that RX1212, or defendant exhibit 1212, is the contract which they signed. This submission was entirely sealed/redacted, as you'd expect.

Page 87: Microsoft cites an expectation that Nintendo will release a Switch successor "as early as next year." The only reference is to a transcript of testimony from Phil Spencer on June 23, which I don't have access to. I feel like if he said this at some point in court, it would/should have already been reported on? Not sure whether that happened.

Page 91: Microsoft states an expectation that Nintendo's next generation console will be released "in the near future." There is a reference to testimony from Bobby Kotick on June 28, as well as a reference to redacted plaintiff exhibit PX2421, a document from Activision which was also sealed. I was able to track down that this exhibit is likely the executive summary e-mail about "Switch NG" made for Kotick, which was referenced in an earlier hearing.

Here's a reference which seems to confirm that on page 147 of another document:

Okay, back to the current Microsoft document.

Page 104: Another reference to the Microsoft-Nintendo CoD agreement, but this time it's described as an agreement to provide CoD to "[Nintendo's] Switch console and its upcoming console upgrade." This is interesting because it implies the agreement was specific about certain upcoming hardware that would receive CoD. Previous references to the agreement only mention the Switch, or Nintendo hardware in general, or at best are vague about future hardware like the previous "Switch (and any successor Nintendo consoles)" quote in this document.

Page 129: This footnote also indicates that the CoD agreement had specificity about future Nintendo hardware, and goes one step further by describing it as "an in-development Switch model." Taken together with the previous concrete reference to an "upcoming console upgrade," this may confirm that Nintendo's new hardware is positioned/branded as a Switch model.

Note that the cited Docket 1 (footnotes 1-2) is the FTC's original complaint, but I couldn't find any footnotes in that document, nor could I find a section about the "Unanticipated and Unforeseeable Future Events" provisions. My assumption is that these were references in the FTC's complaint to the text of the Microsoft-Nintendo agreement, which were redacted because the agreement itself was redacted/sealed. I think it's strange I can't find where those redactions and redacted footnotes would be in the complaint, though.

I think it's entirely possible that this is just Microsoft's lawyers using "Switch" as synecdoche for current and future hardware, as many people do. If my interpretation is correct and this is indirectly referencing the text of the actual agreement, that somewhat increases the possibility that "in-development Switch model" is a concrete reference to something from that agreement, and not just synecdoche. Though, if that's the case, why wasn't this redacted?

Page 142: Lastly, we have a reference to a different contract, this one between Microsoft and Activision, which included language about "Nintendo's next generation console." This also seems to imply a concrete reference to a specific product and not just future Nintendo hardware in general, although that's not necessarily the case; it could be general. I don't know what "FTC Pretrial FOF" is referring to here, but it's likely another reference to a transcript.

Since the quote in question is from the deposition of Nintendo of America's Steve Singer, it would appear that Microsoft shared with Nintendo some of the details of their intended contract with Activision, presumably as part of the negotiations over the contract Microsoft wanted to sign with Nintendo, which concerned Activision's plan for future Nintendo support.

Another thing to note here is that the redaction after "Nintendo's next generation console" is probably not that interesting. It likely creates a sentence along the lines of "The FTC misleadingly implies Steve Singer thought that certain language in the contract with Activision concerning Nintendo's next generation console was inadequate for ensuring future support on Nintendo hardware," rather than the redactions containing any information relevant to us about the next generation hardware itself.

Edit: Here's a link to all the documents in this case's docket.

Follow-ups from some newly released transcripts:

The statements that "Nintendo is expected to release the successor to the Switch as early as next year" and "Nintendo is expected to release its next generation console in the near future" are not directly backed up by the cited testimony. The latter citation to Kotick's testimony is about future Nintendo hardware, and is somewhat relevant to us, but it doesn't include any information about timing.

The Kotick testimony is relevant, though, because it provides a little bit of insight into the 99% redacted Switch NG executive summary e-mail. I'll quote that section of testimony here.

Spoiler

MS. CIRINCIONE: It's PX2421.

(Pause in proceedings.)

MS. CIRINCIONE: It's a document that's been marked
entirely as confidential except for one part actually, and I
can get to that, if that's helpful to you, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Go ahead.

BY MS. CIRINCIONE:

Q. Mr. Kotick, this is an executive briefing that your CFO
Armin Zerza sent to you on December 14th, 2022; right?

A. Yes.

Q. The executive briefing is for your call with Furukawa-San
the following day?

A. Yes.

Q. And Furukawa-San is the head of Nintendo; right?

A. Yes, he is.

MS. CIRINCIONE: Your Honor, I move to admit PX2421
into the record, please.

THE COURT: Admitted.

(Trial Exhibit 2421 received in evidence.)

MS. CIRINCIONE: The paragraph, Your Honor, that we've
agreed with Defendants would not be confidential is on the last
page of the document PX2421-009.

(Pause in proceedings.)

THE COURT: The next steps?

MS. CIRINCIONE: It's a header at the top that reads
"Conclusion" and the next paragraph says -- the paragraph that
I'm referencing is "Given the closer alignment."

THE COURT: All right. That will not be under seal?

MS. CIRINCIONE: Correct, unless you obviously --
unless you feel like more should be open.

THE COURT: If no one wants it, then I'm okay with
that.

BY MS. CIRINCIONE:

Q. I think, Mr. Kotick, at the end of the executive briefing
on page 007, there's something called "Switch NG Exec Summary";
correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And on the following page 008 at the very bottom of the
page there's a paragraph that starts "This," and that sheds
some clarity on what "NG" means; correct?

A. (Witness examines document.) Okay. I'm sorry. I didn't
hear the question.

Q. I just want to give the Court the benefit of understanding
what "NG" means so that it's clear.

A. Oh. I think it means next generation.

Q. Thank you.
And then on the next page where I was referencing
previously there's a conclusion section?

A. Yes.

Q. And the third paragraph down, do you see that?

A. It starts "However"?

Q. Yeah, it starts "Given" -- "Given."

A. I see, uh-huh.

Q. Do you see that?

A. I do.

Q. Okay. I'll read this because we can read it out loud (as
read):
"Given the closer alignment to Gen 8 platforms in
terms of performance and our previous offerings on
PS4/Xbox 1 it is reasonable to assume that we could make
something compelling for NG Switch as well."
Is that correct, Mr. Kotick?

A. That's what it says.

IMO this excerpt is another point of evidence that "NG" is not a codename, but just a shorthand for "next generation" used by the Activision employee who wrote this document. Generally, the overall context of this document and the way it's cited to make the lawyers' points (on both sides) very much indicate it was about Activision's own plans and expectations for new hardware which they wanted to discuss, and maybe even communicate requests/feedback about, in their upcoming call with Nintendo -- not a summary of information they had already received from Nintendo. If NG were a codename, I think Nintendo would not have allowed it to go unredacted and read into the public record in open court. Ditto the one unredacted paragraph which was quoted and caused all the consternation, actually.

This probably ends the saga of information from the FTC case. The administrative action is still ongoing, but that has nowhere near the same amount of publicly available documents or testimony. They seem to only publish the main arguments or opinions, which have largely the same content as the case for the preliminary injunction.

 

[AlexMBush]

Like what, Luke & Kimberly Amiibos to correspond with the Collector’s Edition of the other versions?

More like some form of a limited time voucher for getting DLC fighters to be caught up to speed with the other players more like.