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StarTopic Future Nintendo Hardware & Technology Speculation & Discussion |ST| (Read the staff posts before commenting!)

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Are there devices with 60 watt hour batteries that could comfortably handle a 22W system.

The Steam Deck at 40 watt hours only can do 22W gaming for like ~80 to 90 minutes.

How huge would a 60-70 watt battery be.
 
ItWasMeantToBe19 said:
Has anyone given an estimated wattage range for the chip given near optimal clocks and given Samsung 8nm.

Is the Switch 2 going to be a 22W (in handheld) freakzoid.
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Thraktor did one based on Orin:
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Future Nintendo Hardware & Technology Speculation & Discussion |ST| (Read the staff posts before commenting!)

It's surely intermediate frames rather than future ones, or else there would be horrible issues any time you panned/rotated the camera quickly, right? It is 100% future frames.
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Coincidentally this was exactly 1 year ago.
 
Kise Ryota said:
I don't know about optimal clocks, but from the Orin power tool we saw a power consumption of 11w (only CPU+GPU at high load) for these clocks:
GPU - 522.75 MHz (6.5w)
CPU - 1728 MHz (4.5w)
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15 watts for the APU for the Steam Deck causes 22 watts in consumption overall.

Guess this also depends a lot on

1. How strong the fan is to cool this Frankenstein's monster down
2. Resolution and brightness of the screen
3. How fast the UFS memory is running at and what version it is
4. How advanced the haptics are
5. How advanced the wi-fi is

I could see this ending up as some 18 to 22 watt thing.
 
GigaUltraMoon said:
You're peddling a thought floated by Miyamoto years ago to investors as evidence that 7+ years will now be the norm going forward when in reality we're coming up to the 7 year mark with the knowledge the successor is likely to be out by that point, in addition to the knowledge that there were plans a year or two ago for an advanced model to have been released that were then derailed and subsequently changed with news of dev kit recalls and a scrapped chipset coming to light at some point in early 2022, so had that progressed as planned then there was every intention of moving on from the Switch within their usual timeline - going this long between generations is something Nintendo seem to have not anticipated with Furukawa himself describing the situation as 'unchartered territory' a few months ago
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You’re dismissing the statement directed at shareholders and evidence of them planning and executing the extended lifespan as “a thought floated by Miyamoto.” They reinforced the notion in the years the followed that the Switch was early or in the middle of its lifecycle. The uncharted territory comments can just as easily be attributed to the fact that Nintendo was and is operating outside of their modus operandi - five to six years - not that they didn’t anticipate it. It exceedingly uncharted in that they’re navigating this time without a second console on market. That was always my read on it.

And once again, we don’t have an ounce of solid evidence that any advanced model was going to hit the market. It remains plausible that a Pro never existed, even if “advanced kits” were out in the wild. I’ve been here the whole time as well. We have what was reported by individuals multiple times removed from the source-of-truth, subject to interpretation at each layer past the first. In the most recent account with Nate/MVG/John discussing the “cancelled” hardware, MVG even proposed that it might have been a very routine recall of interim kits, and everything is right on schedule. Neither Nate or John dismissed the idea as a possibility. That alone is telling.

This has been you projecting on Nintendo as some sort of authority about how things went down. You were never interested in humouring alternatives or other interpretations. We’re just proposing that 7 or more years is likely going to be a goal again, and why wouldn’t it be? What’s changed where longer generations suddenly aren’t something to aspire to? More so than any plan or precedent that’s being debated above, this is what dictates the decision going forward.
 
ItWasMeantToBe19 said:
15 watts for the APU for the Steam Deck causes 22 watts in consumption overall.

Guess this also depends a lot on

1. How strong the fan is to cool this Frankenstein's monster down
2. Resolution and brightness of the screen
3. How fast the UFS memory is running at and what version it is
4. How advanced the haptics are
5. How advanced the wi-fi is

I could see this ending up as some 18 to 22 watt thing.
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5nm (TSMC 4N) seems far more likely than 8nm. TSMC 4N would have been available for T239, I don't see why Nintendo didn't go that route particularly when they get more bang for buck on per-wafer cost.
 
re: Switch lifetime

I don’t know what Nintendo’s long term strategy is. But if T239 isn’t built to last a long time it’s impossible to build a long lived handheld.

Th Z1 extreme, the Most Powerful Handheld APU On The Market Today(tm) is only 768 GPU cores.

As we’ve discussed before, 1536 cores is the single most power efficient design Nvidia could have built using their current technologies. That means whatever design we get with that chip will almost certainly be the most power that is possible for Nvidia to deliver while maintaining the batter life that Nintendo believes is necessary for the product to sell.

There is no technology on the current roadmap that would allow for a later revision to significantly improve on that battery life, or increase performance and maintain battery life.

The same applies to the CPU. Multiple reports on the ancillary technology - RAM and storage - are also in the same realm.

And it’s not just about power. AI, RT, large GPU clusters - these are all forward thinking technologies that represent not only the most forward thinking handheld on the market (looking at you, Apple) but the most forward thinking console period.

If it’s not long lived, well, it wasn’t possible to make it long lived. At least from a hardware design perspective.
 
ItWasMeantToBe19 said:
Are there devices with 60 watt hour batteries that could comfortably handle a 22W system.

The Steam Deck at 40 watt hours only can do 22W gaming for like ~80 to 90 minutes.

How huge would a 60-70 watt battery be.
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How do you think those portable vacuum works? They drain battery like a glass of water.
 
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darthdiablo said:
Might as well use RR when using SR.
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According to Nvidia, currently RR quadruples the cost of super resolution. Benchmarking with Cyberpunk shows a slight drop in frame rate, which means that RR is more expensive than the denoisers that CDPR provides.

That’s why I want to see RR numbers with a small number of RT effects. Unreal and Cyberpunk both use a separate denoiser for each RT effect - one for reflections, one for shadows, one for ambient occlusion, one for direct lighting etc. Right now RR is a slight hit compared to running all those denoisers at once.

But what about one denoiser? If it is very similar in that case, then yeah, anytime you’re doing RT, it’s probably worth it to enable it.

Right now there are some cases where RR doesn’t look as good as other denoisers, but I suspect we will see rapid improvements in those areas just like we did with super resolution. I also suspect that Nvidia is working hard on performance and that’s why it’s only enabled in RT overdrive mode right now
 
oldpuck said:
Right now there are some cases where RR doesn’t look as good as other denoisers, but I suspect we will see rapid improvements in those areas just like we did with super resolution. I also suspect that Nvidia is working hard on performance and that’s why it’s only enabled in RT overdrive mode right now
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Yup. The video IAmFeet ILikeFeet shared showed a couple of parts where RR actually made things a bit worse. Like reflections off some pots. But for most part, SR+RR seem to make things look better, and at higher FPS, compared to native. But I'm sure in practice (games), it's not always quite that simple. Just gives devs more tools to work with.
 
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darthdiablo said:
Yup. The video IAmFeet shared showed a couple of parts where RR actually made things a bit worse. Like reflections off some pots. But for most part, SR+RR seem to make things look better, and at higher FPS, compared to native. But I'm sure in practice (games), it's not always quite that simple. Just gives devs more tools to work with.
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He likes feet, not that he is feet :p
 
oldpuck said:
According to Nvidia, currently RR quadruples the cost of super resolution. Benchmarking with Cyberpunk shows a slight drop in frame rate, which means that RR is more expensive than the denoisers that CDPR provides.

That’s why I want to see RR numbers with a small number of RT effects. Unreal and Cyberpunk both use a separate denoiser for each RT effect - one for reflections, one for shadows, one for ambient occlusion, one for direct lighting etc. Right now RR is a slight hit compared to running all those denoisers at once.

But what about one denoiser? If it is very similar in that case, then yeah, anytime you’re doing RT, it’s probably worth it to enable it.

Right now there are some cases where RR doesn’t look as good as other denoisers, but I suspect we will see rapid improvements in those areas just like we did with super resolution. I also suspect that Nvidia is working hard on performance and that’s why it’s only enabled in RT overdrive mode right now
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I thought one of the selling points of RR was that it actually slightly improved performance. Digital Foundry and AnalistaDeBits showed minor gains in performance and so did Nvidia’s own video
 
kvetcha said:
It was announced at the January 2017 Switch event and didn't release on the console until May 2019, which is crazy since it came out on PC in 2016. I just remember the tail on that game being so long that they completely missed the early Switch software lull where they probably could have sold a million units.
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Ah yes, I thought you were refering to it being announced in the same way Rise was.
Nicalis was a huge early supporter of the Switch and had a lot of succesful games early on but al - this one definitely missed that period. Could have made a mark for sure.

I remember Redout had a messy development story on Switch. The final product looks very different from the other versions, completely different style.
 
Machrider said:
Question: Could you even clock a 8nm 1536 CUDA core Orin-derived chip at 550 MHz without heating issues in something the size of a Switch? What in the world would even be the undocked clock on this thing? 250 MHz? Taking it back to 1999?
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I think 300 mhz is the lower limit, which is I suppose what they would go for.

550mhz is definitely off the table
 
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Interesting. (Skip to 17:35 but watch the whole video later, it's worth it)

The iPhone 15 can outperform the Steam Deck... before throttling 5 minutes later. But it also has AI upscaling. Strangely enough, TSMC's 3nm process didn't seem to give it any efficiency advantage, and it consumes more power than its predecessor.

If Apple can surpass a Steam Deck with passive cooling and get close to it after throttling even on a node that, for some reason, didn't seem to give it an efficiency advantage, it would be easy for Nintendo to destroy the Steam Deck performance-wise at 4nm.

Hopefully it's not actually Samsung's crappy 8nm node. If it is, I expect either a disappointing battery life or a bulky console with sub-par performance. :( For context, the Steam Deck uses TSMC's 7nm node.
 
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Raploz said:


Interesting. (Skip to 17:35)

The iPhone 15 can outperform the Steam Deck... before throttling 5 minutes later. But it also has AI upscaling. Strangely enough, TSMC's 3nm process didn't seem to give it any efficiency advantage, and it consumes more power than its predecessor.

If Apple can surpass a Steam Deck with passive cooling and get close to it after throttling even on a node that, for some reason, didn't seem to give it an efficiency advantage, it would be easy for Nintendo to destroy the Steam Deck performance-wise at 4nm.

Hopefully it's not actually 8nm, if it is I expect either a disappointing battery life or a bulky console with sub-par performance. For context, the Steam Deck uses TSMC's 7nm node. :(
Click to expand...

Destroy the SD docked possible. Might be at a similar level to a maxed out SD in handheld mode.
 
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Raploz said:


Interesting. (Skip to 17:35 but watch the whole video later, it's worth it)

The iPhone 15 can outperform the Steam Deck... before throttling 5 minutes later. But it also has AI upscaling. Strangely enough, TSMC's 3nm process didn't seem to give it any efficiency advantage, and it consumes more power than its predecessor.

If Apple can surpass a Steam Deck with passive cooling and get close to it after throttling even on a node that, for some reason, didn't seem to give it an efficiency advantage, it would be easy for Nintendo to destroy the Steam Deck performance-wise at 4nm.

Hopefully it's not actually Samsung's crappy 8nm node. If it is, I expect either a disappointing battery life or a bulky console with sub-par performance. :( For context, the Steam Deck uses TSMC's 7nm node.
Click to expand...

What's the battery life like though at around SD performance? That's the most important question...

I kinda skimmed the video.

-CPU performance uses up to 14 watts at peak performance and 9.5 for power performance efficiency

-CPU is surpassed by snap dragon 8 gen 2

A17 Pro power efficiency to average fps (59.1) is better than snap dragon 8 gen 2. 4 watts vs +6 watts
-RE Village requires 6GB of RAM. The A14 iPhone (vs current A17/iPhone Pro 15)can run it. iPhone 14 can run it at 6GB, but it will crash on iPhone 13 (has 3GB)

-Re Village runs at 720p 30fps with metal fx enabled by default, likely to save on thermals

-RE Village games config file can change resolution 1080p

-When compared to SD. For RE village... the power consumption is way better at 720p. SD can hold sub 40fps using 15 watts for the APU alone, while iPhone 15 Pro Max above 30fps using only 4 watts. Can do up to 44 fps , but will throttle soon after
-iphonr 15 pro's heat dissipation is worse than last years pro max variant and Red Magic 8 Pro+ and Xiaomi 13 Pro
 
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ArchedThunder said:
Why are people talking about 8nm again? I thought we were long past the idea that it could be that.
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To a few replies above, I think ArchedThunder was wondering why 8nm talk resurfaced recently again tonight, after we already talked about Kopite's SEC8N tweet nearly a week ago.

It was this comment, ItWasMeantToBe19 was wondering what battery would be like if it's 8nm. It's not "given" that it's 8nm though.
 
ArchedThunder said:
Didn’t he already say some stuff about it that was wrong? 8nm doesn’t really make sense.
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darthdiablo said:
To a few replies above, I think ArchedThunder was wondering why 8nm talk resurfaced recently again tonight, after we already talked about Kopite's SEC8N tweet nearly a week ago.

It was this comment, ItWasMeantToBe19 was wondering what battery would be like if it's 8nm. It's not "given" that it's 8nm though.
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Hermii said:
He did, but it doesn't mean he is wrong about this. We know Drake will be more efficient than Orin no matter the node, maybe we just underestimate by how much. Shouldn't completely be discounted.
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I want to dismiss Kopite‘s words, but remember “Aula”? People were very dismissive of the thought of Nintendo releasing just a screen-updated Switch. “There’s no way they would do that”, “There’s no point” only for it to be true, and the Switch Pro dream crashed.
 
Raploz said:


Interesting. (Skip to 17:35 but watch the whole video later, it's worth it)

The iPhone 15 can outperform the Steam Deck... before throttling 5 minutes later. But it also has AI upscaling. Strangely enough, TSMC's 3nm process didn't seem to give it any efficiency advantage, and it consumes more power than its predecessor.

If Apple can surpass a Steam Deck with passive cooling and get close to it after throttling even on a node that, for some reason, didn't seem to give it an efficiency advantage, it would be easy for Nintendo to destroy the Steam Deck performance-wise at 4nm.

Hopefully it's not actually Samsung's crappy 8nm node. If it is, I expect either a disappointing battery life or a bulky console with sub-par performance. :( For context, the Steam Deck uses TSMC's 7nm node.
Click to expand...


That's pretty crazy that a phone can run a game like that and even go up to 1080p medium settings.

Imagine what an iPhone 2-3 generations from now will be doing, also an iPad with an even better chip than that (M3?).
 
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If it’s 8N, 1) I wouldn’t be surprised and 2) that has to mean this has those other RT features from later architectures


Proving the report is accurate of course
 
From TGS here is Resident Evil Village on an iPad Pro with an M2 (?) chip. As expected it looks a lot closer to the PC/PS5 version than the iPhone version.



I think Switch 2 will be great, but I think Nintendo better not be resting on their laurels and hopefully their hardware is up to snuff because if they were expecting a generation with no competition, that might not turn out to be true. If iOS is going to start getting a bunch of these AAA games that run and look like that and even better as the years go on, it could become a credible gaming platform for console style games for sure.
 
Machrider said:
From TGS here is Resident Evil Village on an iPad Pro with an M2 (?) chip. As expected it looks a lot closer to the PC/PS5 version than the iPhone version.



I think Switch 2 will be great, but I think Nintendo better not be resting on their laurels and hopefully their hardware is up to snuff because if they were expecting a generation with no competition, that might not turn out to be true. If iOS is going to start getting a bunch of these AAA games that run and look like that and even better as the years go on, it could become a credible gaming platform for console style games for sure.
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On the flip side if mobile and tablet devices gain more traction for gaming, Super Switch could have cross-play on some newer current-gen third-party multiplayer games on launch with mobile, PC, and other consoles - would be a watershed moment in AAA multiplayer gaming.
 
RumHamRigRunner said:
On the flip side if mobile and tablet devices gain more traction for gaming, Super Switch could have cross-play on some newer current-gen third-party multiplayer games on launch with mobile, PC, and other consoles - would be a watershed moment in AAA multiplayer gaming.
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True, this could help Switch 2 actually get some 3rd party games it may not otherwise get (because the combined install base of iOS devices + Switch 2 could tilt some publishers over the edge). So that is an upside.

The other side of that street though is this could be pretty dangerous competition if people start to get used to having AAA games with loosely "comparable" quality to a PS5 on their iPad and/or a 720p version that is in their pocket at all times on their iPhone.

Nintendo should not be coming into this next gen in a lackadaisical way, hopefully the Switch 2 is not a heavily compromised piece of hardware. The CUDA core number looks real good, but it really has to be on a good node (5nm) to really mean a whole lot.
 
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OniLgnd said:
It won't. Apple paid for these games to be ported, and they aren't going to sell. Nobody pays more than $1 at a time on mobile, let alone $60.
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I wouldn't pay money for a mobile game either.

But an actual modern AAA Resident Evil game? Or a Final Fantasy game? Or NBA 2K with PS5 tier graphics? On that nice big iPad screen?

Well maybe not even $60 then ... but at $20 on sale? $25?

And I'm getting an iPhone version too that's always available in my pocket?

Well sure you might have a sale then.

Anyways, competition is good. Nintendo can't have expected to just have the entire hybrid console sector to themselves forever and ever and only with maybe niche competitors like Steam Deck. If iOS AAA gaming starts to gradually build momentum over the years and it means that Nintendo feels compelled to release an actual Switch 2 Pro with improved performance for example ... hey great.
 
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korok said:
In fact, you don't need to go very far in order to find a clear example. Switch was delayed from Holiday 2016 to March 2017 only because the software wasn't ready. This was a short delay, just 4-5 months, but it it is ilustrative to show how hardware and software are dependant of each other.
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Source or you lie :ROFLMAO:

This is the first time I hear this.
 
the iphone audience doesn't pay for premium games, it's that simple

this has been proven time and time again and I don't see why we need to concern over that
 
ArchedThunder said:
I thought one of the selling points of RR was that it actually slightly improved performance. Digital Foundry and AnalistaDeBits showed minor gains in performance and so did Nvidia’s own video
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It's not. Nvidia warned that the performance improvements won't always be the case and shouldn't be taken as a guarantee
 
Machrider said:
I wouldn't pay money for a mobile game either.

But an actual modern AAA Resident Evil game? Or a Final Fantasy game? Or NBA 2K with PS5 tier graphics? On that nice big iPad screen?

Well maybe not even $60 then ... but at $20 on sale? $25?

And I'm getting an iPhone version too that's always available in my pocket?

Well sure you might have a sale then.

Anyways, competition is good. Nintendo can't have expected to just have the entire hybrid console sector to themselves forever and ever and only with maybe niche competitors like Steam Deck. If iOS AAA gaming starts to gradually build momentum over the years and it means that Nintendo feels compelled to release an actual Switch 2 Pro with improved performance for example ... hey great.
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I swear 2011 never ended huh
 
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