antonz
Cappy
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That and honestly outside of his executive-to-executive talks he probably doesn't have much more info even if studios are developing for it. Thats not the day-to-day info the CEO worries about
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StarTopic Future Nintendo Hardware & Technology Speculation & Discussion |ST| (Read the staff posts before commenting!)
- Thread starter Dakhil
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D
Deleted member 887
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Kotick doesn't know his ass from realistic ass physics. Trying to go from a high level C-Suite executive's explanation of horsepower to something as fine grained as the difference between the PS4 Pro and the Series S is a fool's errand.
In the usual gamer shorthand, the PS4 Pro and the Series S are identical in terms of performance. You've got to get into the weeds a bit to understand the differences between the two systems. If the PS 4 Pro is an Apple, the Series S is a Honeycrisp Apple, and Drake is a yuzu.
Yes, and the fans are half right, half wrong. Nuance is nuanced, unfortunately. But Kotick's offhand description matches the machine we expect.
TomNookYankees
Koopa
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Series S GPU performance and RAM size is closer to PS4 Pro, but the CPU and featureset is much closer to XSX and PS5, which is why so many Series X games can (usually) easily be ported to Series S by just reducing resolution and/or framerate.
True, that is good to bear in mind with his comments
Angel Whispers
Follow me at @angelpagecdlmhq
Well, they’re definitely smart, but SHOULD IT? I mean, the Switch has had the success it’s had, and is still on track to eclipse the PS2 without it. Their portable line, for the main part, has been successful without it. It wasn’t a game changer on the Wii, although they had a community there before abandoning it. They’ll be consulted, and will be among the first partners to have kits, anyway, as that’s been part of the their process of product development… But getting COD on their platform again isn’t that high of a priority. They’re the only current console hosts not to have had exclusivity deals for COD DLC before, and the proposal of a decade’s support doesn’t allude to the inclusion of that. It would be welcome for fans of those games, and for the Switch library to have the option, but it’s not that critical.
ShaunSwitch
Moblin
It's important to remember when discussing Bobby Koticks comments that he is Satan and cannot be trusted.
P4bl0
Project Oz H2 2024
It's important to remember when discussing Bobby Koticks comments that he is Satan and cannot be trusted.
It’s from emails publicly leaked between him and Nintendo..
Bobby-satan is a running gag.
robertman2
Chain Chomp
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yes, it should.
Angel Whispers
Follow me at @angelpagecdlmhq
It will be better than the PS4 Pro, and have a better GPU than the XSS (this gets downplayed a lot, but the facts don’t care about keeping expectations in check). A prospective docked 3-4TF system is still “closer to Gen 8” in raw numbers and “closer to Gen 9” in real-world performance terms. It has a more modern architecture than the latest consoles, a better CPU than the Pro/X variants, and DLSS gives it a hardware-specific advantage over the PS5/XS systems. There’s also the general view that Nvidia RT is better than AMD’s RT. Ultimately, it will be beyond the capacities of the 8th Gen and their Pro/X models, but too many fixate on raw grunt when smarter engineering will be the more important element here. Lack of power won’t be the reason why games don’t come to the successor - It will be because of industry politics, bad calls by parasites like Kotick and Wilson, continued misreading and miscalculations of Nintendo fans, and/or because developers and publishers don’t want them there.
Concernt
Optimism is non-negotiable
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Yeah, he's a right- SKELETON WARRIORS Bow-wow-wow-wow-wooow.It's important to remember when discussing Bobby Koticks comments that he is Satan and cannot be trusted.
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Sounds like an assumption. For it not to be vaguely in the PS4 level in GPU strength if not features (say, from 0.5x to 2x), you have to be especially pessimistic or optimistic.
D
Deleted member 887
Guest
Neither. Cross posting my description of this damn tweet from another thread...
It seems like literally everyone is misunderstanding this damn tweet, which might not even be an accurate representation of the damn email. To summarize
FTC has an email between Armin Zerza, then Chief Commercial Officer of ActiBlizz and "The Head of Nintendo". That is probably Doug Bowser in context. This email happened over 2 years ago, as Zerza was promoted to CFO in April of 2021.
That email contained referenced an executive summary of "Switch NG".
Zerza responds that, considering how close the PS4/Xbone versions of Call of Duty are to their Series S|X/PS5 versions, and based on the executive summary, it should be possible to deliver a good version of CoD.
Kotick has said in court that today, two+ years later, they are still unfamiliar with the detailed specs.
There have been reports of a cancelled device in that timeframe, so it's not even clear if the very vague high level "executive summary" is actually applicable to any hardware that is actually coming out.
These are all interesting details but on their own they don't mean anything except "one time, a C-suite exec talked to another C-suite exec"
D
Deleted member 887
Guest
Couple things worth noting from this.
Nintendo contacted external developers with an executive summary of their next console as early as 2019. This should be unsurprising to anyone who hangs around here, but let this be lesson about not reading too much into anything. Everyone pounced on damn Yves Guillemot talking about updating Mario + Rabbids for a next gen machine, but odds are he received this same summary years ago. Knowing there is a next gen device coming and it's vague performance goals doesn't imply anything about the system being imminent.
The performance gap here is massive. The Xbox One was a 1.3 TFLOPS machine, the Series S is 4 TFLOPS. But it's worse that that. Imagine the following executive level description:
That description would fit Zerza's response, while offering an amount of power potentially much lower than even the base Xbox One. There is no "there" there.
MadMechanic
Yee diddly
Thraktor
"[✄]. [✄]. [✄]. [✄]." -Microsoft
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RTX 4060 reviews have appeared today, and they provide some useful insight into how DLSS 3's frame generation feature runs on mid-range GPUs. Unfortunately not that many reviews have actually focussed on DLSS FG, but Ars Technica's review has comparisons between DLSS off and DLSS with and without frame generation across 4 games, all at 1440p resolution, which gives us something to work with.
One interesting thing about the numbers is that the performance with frame generation enabled doesn't increase much as the baseline performance of the game increases. Here's Cyberpunk 2077, the best case scenario for DLSS FG:
The game gets almost a 2x speedup from frame generation over standard DLSS, along the lines of what Nvidia advertised. Here's Forza Horizon 5:
Despite running at a much higher base frame rate, the benefits of turning on frame generation are almost non-existent. The performance with DLSS FG seems to plateau around 80-90 FPS, with the highest frame rate of 92 FPS on Hitman 3.
The key thing here is that DLSS 3's frame generation isn't free. If it could instantaneously generate a new frame every time, then the frame rate with frame generation would always be double the frame rate without. The more cost to generating the frame (ie the more time it takes to generate) the lower the benefits of DLSS FG, up to the point where it takes longer than rendering a frame does, and it would actually harm performance. We're obviously not getting a uniform doubling of the frame rate, and in some cases not even a 10% boost in performance, which gives us a hint about the cost of frame generation.
There are obviously quite a few potential bottlenecks which could be impacting the performance here, the key ones being the tensor core performance, memory bandwidth and the OFA. I don't think the OFA is the bottleneck in this case, as it appears to be identical across the Ada lineup and the RTX 4090 can achieve much higher frame rates with FG. The bandwidth could well be a significant bottleneck, as there's a lot of data being accessed, but taking the cache into account it would be hard to quantify. That leaves tensor core performance, which is easy enough to quantify, and likely a bottleneck in at least some cases.
Let's say, for simplicity, that DLSS 3's FG algorithm is purely bottlenecked by tensor core performance. At 1440p on an RTX 4060, there seems to be enough tensor core performance to produce around 46 generated frames a second for an output of 92 FPS. Maybe it could squeeze a bit more out in certain circumstances, so let's just say 50 generated frames a second for 100 FPS. I'm not quite sure whether they're generated concurrently with the regular frames or sequentially, but it doesn't really matter that much, as the same would be true on any other hardware.
The RTX 4060 is twice the size of T239's GPU, and runs at around 2.5x the speed I'd expect in docked mode, so it has around 5x the overall tensor core performance. If the RTX 4060 is limited by tensor core performance to 100 FPS using frame generation at 1440p, then on hardware with 1/5th the performance it would be limited to around 20 FPS. Outputting at 4K, we might get as little as 10 FPS.
Obviously this is an over-simplified extrapolation based on limited data, but I'd be surprised if it was that far from the truth. I've seen a lot of discussion over whether T239 could have enough OFA performance for DLSS frame generation, but honestly that was never going to be the bottleneck and the the overall level of performance (and memory bandwidth) required to generate a frame quickly enough is a much bigger issue. In fact, from what I can tell even the RTX 4060 might struggle with hitting 60 FPS at 4K using frame generation. Unfortunately I can't find any reviews which compare 4K performance with frame generation to DLSS without frame generation, and the reviews which do test frame generation at 4K (see here and here) show results which are pretty much what you'd expect from regular DLSS 2. I wouldn't be surprised if the Nvidia drivers turn frame generation off at higher frame rates when it detects that it wouldn't improve performance.
One interesting thing about the numbers is that the performance with frame generation enabled doesn't increase much as the baseline performance of the game increases. Here's Cyberpunk 2077, the best case scenario for DLSS FG:
The game gets almost a 2x speedup from frame generation over standard DLSS, along the lines of what Nvidia advertised. Here's Forza Horizon 5:
Despite running at a much higher base frame rate, the benefits of turning on frame generation are almost non-existent. The performance with DLSS FG seems to plateau around 80-90 FPS, with the highest frame rate of 92 FPS on Hitman 3.
The key thing here is that DLSS 3's frame generation isn't free. If it could instantaneously generate a new frame every time, then the frame rate with frame generation would always be double the frame rate without. The more cost to generating the frame (ie the more time it takes to generate) the lower the benefits of DLSS FG, up to the point where it takes longer than rendering a frame does, and it would actually harm performance. We're obviously not getting a uniform doubling of the frame rate, and in some cases not even a 10% boost in performance, which gives us a hint about the cost of frame generation.
There are obviously quite a few potential bottlenecks which could be impacting the performance here, the key ones being the tensor core performance, memory bandwidth and the OFA. I don't think the OFA is the bottleneck in this case, as it appears to be identical across the Ada lineup and the RTX 4090 can achieve much higher frame rates with FG. The bandwidth could well be a significant bottleneck, as there's a lot of data being accessed, but taking the cache into account it would be hard to quantify. That leaves tensor core performance, which is easy enough to quantify, and likely a bottleneck in at least some cases.
Let's say, for simplicity, that DLSS 3's FG algorithm is purely bottlenecked by tensor core performance. At 1440p on an RTX 4060, there seems to be enough tensor core performance to produce around 46 generated frames a second for an output of 92 FPS. Maybe it could squeeze a bit more out in certain circumstances, so let's just say 50 generated frames a second for 100 FPS. I'm not quite sure whether they're generated concurrently with the regular frames or sequentially, but it doesn't really matter that much, as the same would be true on any other hardware.
The RTX 4060 is twice the size of T239's GPU, and runs at around 2.5x the speed I'd expect in docked mode, so it has around 5x the overall tensor core performance. If the RTX 4060 is limited by tensor core performance to 100 FPS using frame generation at 1440p, then on hardware with 1/5th the performance it would be limited to around 20 FPS. Outputting at 4K, we might get as little as 10 FPS.
Obviously this is an over-simplified extrapolation based on limited data, but I'd be surprised if it was that far from the truth. I've seen a lot of discussion over whether T239 could have enough OFA performance for DLSS frame generation, but honestly that was never going to be the bottleneck and the the overall level of performance (and memory bandwidth) required to generate a frame quickly enough is a much bigger issue. In fact, from what I can tell even the RTX 4060 might struggle with hitting 60 FPS at 4K using frame generation. Unfortunately I can't find any reviews which compare 4K performance with frame generation to DLSS without frame generation, and the reviews which do test frame generation at 4K (see here and here) show results which are pretty much what you'd expect from regular DLSS 2. I wouldn't be surprised if the Nvidia drivers turn frame generation off at higher frame rates when it detects that it wouldn't improve performance.
Thugstas
Bob-omb
AshiodyneFX
Tektite
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- She/Her
God discussing this thing is gonna turn into ACTUAL HELL
Lugia667
Inkling
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- He/Him
....why do people think Nintendo is suddenly going to abandon portability for no reason?
KeijiKG
Moblin
Yes, but even the Devil can cite scripture for his purpose.It's important to remember when discussing Bobby Koticks comments that he is Satan and cannot be trusted.
eye0h
"aggressively persue a multiplatform strategy"
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I think Nintendo might need to look at this and actively dismiss these claims and ideas through their marketing which would be fun. Imagine seeing "6x the power of the nintendo switch" in a keynote like they're apple LOL. These reactions are too insane to ignore not gonna lie.
D36
#WOHOYHASAWAKENED
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I wanted to see what the denizens of Twitter thought and I immediately regretted it. I know they're very likely not gonna know what we know (and even that's all theoretical), but the hot takes are straight up goofy half the time. Then again, Twitter is practically made for that type of fast-paced engagement.
D36
#WOHOYHASAWAKENED
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Sadly, I don't think they have any incentive to pay any of this any mind. Probably for the best, since I bet they want to do things on their own terms, anyway.
eye0h
"aggressively persue a multiplatform strategy"
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I disagree, there's like 1500 interactions of confused opinions which could be incredibly valuable to their market research guys when deciding how to push this thing. Sure they'll do it the 'nintendo way' but I don't think they can get away with not talking about power in any capacity. Especially because of the 4K and DLSS stuff.
NateDrake
Chain Chomp
One tweet misframed it and everyone latched on to that single tweet, despite other accounts providing further clarity on the comments -- but, for some reason, those tweets were ignored.
BowserIsMyFather
Moblin
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- He/Him
Whatever suits their narrative, I guess.
D36
#WOHOYHASAWAKENED
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That's Twitter for yah. Unless you make it a thread, certain information might go ignored.
D36
#WOHOYHASAWAKENED
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Oh, I expect them to talk about power, just not as a response to the peanut gallery.
Goodtwin
Like Like
Our optimistic outlook for Drake is close to Series S performance, but its also very possible that it ends up being less than those estimates. Even if they are close though, and Drake is a 3 Tflop chip, from a publishers perspective, that puts it closer to PS4/X1 than PS5/X. You also have to consider the fact that Switch has two performance profiles and these developers will likely be more focused on the lower performance profile rather than the higher one, because the game needs to run good in that lower performance profile. So when they look at how much performance they have to get the game running on Redated, it may make sense to more closely align it with PS4/X1 because that is very close to the performance it will have in portable mode.
eye0h
"aggressively persue a multiplatform strategy"
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Hey man a customer is a customer and they're gonna be trying to win everyone over with this thing no stone unturned. Brand equity is super important and if the idiots in that twitter thread are spreading this information around at the time of the announcement they're gonna want to shut them up in one way or another. A more covert method would be showing a bunch of next gen ports running on the thing tbh.
D36
#WOHOYHASAWAKENED
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- He/Him
You might be on to something. Nintendo did shut down that whole Bloomberg situation and, depending on how things go from here, their hand might be forced again. Iirc however, the misreporting with the 11 devs was on a different scale to what's going on now, so who knows; if anything ActiBlizz might be the ones who'll have to set the record straight.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
my first read of that Twitter thread is a lot of people that aren’t engaged with Nintendo in the first place and don’t intend to be, and are throwing their FUD into the wild.
whether they are a group Nintendo can even target is a big question mark; same for whether it’s worth the effort. im inclined to say a tiny mob of console warriors really aren’t part of their blue ocean. who knows…
Mekanos
300 Years Of Gyudon
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Boy you’re swatting at a hornet’s nest with this one
Eh, the statement is pretty vague and evasive and could cover a pretty wide range of scenarios and you're assuming Activision is interested enough in developing for the platform in the first place to commit to pre-release development (not a small commitment). As publishers go, they've show little interest in Switch.
eye0h
"aggressively persue a multiplatform strategy"
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true, twitter is like the opposite of the real world so who's to say
Link_enfant
Fashion Dreamer
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Real world is TotK’s Hyrule and Twitter is the Depths.
D
Deleted member 887
Guest
First off, I think this review is unfortunately bad. It's unclear from the review how the settings differed between the frame gen and non frame gen case.
As the article points out, DLSS 3 can generate 7 out of 8 pixels, and that is the "default" that Nvidia encourages - but that is DLSS Performance mode upscaling + Frame Gen. But the upscaling only benchmarks are Quality mode. And Forza, I believe, allows you to set the scaling factor independent of frame generation.
It's unclear if the frame gen case in these benchmarks represent moving from DLSS Quality Mode in the second bar to DLSS Quality Mode + Frame Gen, DLSS Frame Gen only, or DLSS Perf Mode + Frame gen. The last one would be the Most Wrong, but is also the one the describe in their short technical overview of Frame Gen. The second one would be Also Kinda Wrong, but is the one implied by their graph labeling. The first one would be the closest thing to Useful to An Average PC Gamer. But it's totally unclear.
Second off, Frame Gen can be a performance win even if it takes longer to generate a frame than it does to natively render, and it can be a performance loss even if it's faster. Which is fucking wild but worth pointing out. Frame Gen begins running when there are sufficient native in the buffer, and frame gen will stop if there aren't.
The ideal case for frame gen is in a heavily CPU bound game. Frame Gen buffers from 1 and frame 2 as soon as the GPU renders them. When the second frame is buffered, the CPU begins prepping frame 3, leaving the GPU idle. This lets frame gen interpolate frame 1.5 in this idle period.
If the CPU occupies more than 50% of frame time, then frame gen can be slower than native rendering and still have time to execute. If CPU time is less than 50% of frame time, then even very fast frame gen might not have enough time.
Cyberpunk is a big heavy game - we can tell because it's not even hitting 20fps native on the 4060. It's also is pretty GPU bound - we can tell both because DLSS quality mode doubles frame rate, proportional to its upscaling factor, and because the 4060 Ti, which is 33% more powerful than the 4060, gets 33% more performance.
Forza Horizon 5 is much lighter, over 60fps, and lightly CPU bound - increase GPU performance does increase frame rates, but not proportionally. So while the game might be CPU bound, the CPU chunk of frame time is almost definitely shorter than Cyberpunk's leaving less room for FG to run.
Considering that [redacted] has a GPU that is likely near last gen's performance, but a CPU much more powerful than last gen, I'm dubious frame gen can actually do anything, as framerates are most likely to be GPU bound on it, even in DLSS Performance situations.
MilkyChance
Cappy
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- they/them
Problem I’m seeing how people define power is outdated. Even if REDACTED is between 1 to 3 TFlops, does not mean it’s fallen behind. People forget that the SoC is different than Gen 8’s SoC and the memory is modern. Also with possible FSR2 and DLSS. Those features not possible with Gen 8, and faster flash memory storage.
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