Ghostsonplanets
Ghost in the Sales
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Definitely. The price of the 8 Gen 2 SoC alone is >$100
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StarTopic Future Nintendo Hardware & Technology Speculation & Discussion |ST| (Read the staff posts before commenting!)
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OP
OP
And Qualcomm thinks Nintendo and Sony want to work with Qualcomm.
On a serious note, Qualcomm's probably already working with Sony on the PlayStation Portal. But the only area where I think Qualcomm could be enticing for Nintendo is with the custom Arm based CPU cores designed by Nuvia.
lattjeful
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God I hate the super saturated look everybody goes with for ReShade. No respect to the art direction of the game.
EDIT: Just to add some semblance of substance to this discussion, I will say I'm consistently impressed by how well Switch games scale up. Really shows how modern these games - and the Switch - are. PS3 games, these are not. Contrary to what console warriors will tell you.
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D
Deleted member 887
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I don't think it's a totally meritless experiment, I just don't think it says all the things it seems to say.
Well, let's not forget we're just talking about raw power here. We're also talking about features. DLSS, a huge RAM upgrade, special compression hardware, and just (as @Concernt points out) a more modern GPU. 4k60fps for a Breath of the Wild port is entirely possible. It's just that you (probably) can't brute force it.
Yeah from a practicality standpoint it would be not great. Perhaps if you get a full fat SD Express card slot which can do 1GB/s and handle likely 95% of the game library from the card it would drastically mitigate any issues.
I am an unashamed spec maxi... even though I know what I hope for is unlikely
redmutineer75
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I like how the article completely ignored the obvious "The Switch was powered by an Nvidia chip and became one of the most successful game consoles of all time, why the hell would Nintendo go with Qualcomm for the next one?"And Qualcomm thinks Nintendo and Sony want to work with Qualcomm.
On a serious note, Qualcomm's probably already working with Sony on the PlayStation Portal. But the only area where I think Qualcomm could be enticing for Nintendo is with the custom Arm based CPU cores designed by Nuvia.
ertaboy356b
Resident Troll
Subsidized with what exactly? They had other products and the price did not go up that high, maybe more or less $60.
redmutineer75
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11.52 times, specifically.
ItWasMeantToBe19
Manakete
TotK runs at 600p handheld, 900p docked 30 FPS (dropping to 20 if a lot of stuff is happening on screen).
I do wonder how much more computational power 540p internal (DLSS'd to 1080p) handheld and 810p docked (DLSS'd to 4K) 60 FPS would cost here.
I don't know if the tensor cores are enough to run DLSS alone? When there's not enough tensor cores to run the neural network, does it offload the rest to the CPU or the GPU or a combination? I don't know how many CPU or GPU (non-tensor core) resources it would take up actually.
There could be enough processing power left over to improve LOD and texture quality.
I do wonder how much more computational power 540p internal (DLSS'd to 1080p) handheld and 810p docked (DLSS'd to 4K) 60 FPS would cost here.
I don't know if the tensor cores are enough to run DLSS alone? When there's not enough tensor cores to run the neural network, does it offload the rest to the CPU or the GPU or a combination? I don't know how many CPU or GPU (non-tensor core) resources it would take up actually.
There could be enough processing power left over to improve LOD and texture quality.
redmutineer75
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So, we're assuming different DLSS modes in handheld compared to docked, with handheld using Performance mode and docked using Ultra Performance mode? Seems odd that they'd use the more quality-focused mode for a smaller screen where it matters less. I'd personally either do both of them on Ultra Performance (360p to 1080p handheld, 720p to 4K docked) or swap the modes (360p to 1080p handheld, 1080p to 4K docked)
BDGAME
Shriekbat
Xbox Series S is barely 3 times more powerful than a XBOX One S, when talked about FLOPS alone, but Crysis Remastered on quality mode runs at 1080p on One S and at 4K on Serie S (that is 4 times more). The brute force alone is not the only factor here.
You say that, at 3.4 Tfops, a Switch 2 is 8.8x stronger than switch 1. Zelda runs at 900p on 1. That from 4K is less than 6 times the difference. So, with 3.4 Tflops switch 2 has enough power to run Zelda at 4K easy. Suns the extra resource from CPU, memory and bandwidth and I can see Zelda runs 4K 60 FPS native on switch 2. Or am i missing some calcs here?
About the sub 720p games, it necessary see why they run that low. For example, the same hardware with a fast memory can make a better output?
And about the backwards compatibility, I believe it will be native for the new hardware, not emulated. Like any new version of IOS or Android can run games and software of preview version even on new and stronger hardwares, the new OS will be able to play games came from the old one.
ItWasMeantToBe19
Manakete
Yes, I assume that 540p internal handheld performance and 810p internal docked ultra performance will be the standard Switch 2 games try to hit.
redmutineer75
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As said before, it seems odd that they'd use the more quality-focused mode for a smaller screen where it matters less. Also, 810p to 4K isn't a thing on current DLSS. It'd either be 720p to 4K in Ultra Performance mode or 1080p to 4K in Performance mode.
SoldierDelta
Designated Xenoblade Loremaster
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I'm curious as to if Nintendo would offer Quality and Performance modes based on the Ult. Performance and Performance DLSS modes plus some settings tweaks for Switch 2 games. It's a good option to have at least.
Probably a case where "It'll happen when we actually see it".
ItWasMeantToBe19
Manakete
I'm pretty sure devs could edit it to allow 810p to 4K.
If Ultra performance takes a lot of resources to run the neural network, then they could do 720p to 4K and use GPU cycles to run the neural network itself I guess.
Also, I'm just assuming 540p to 1080p as 360p to 1080p kind of sucks and so does 540p to 4K.
If you can only do an internal resolution jump of 1.5x (vertical and horizontal) when going from handheld to docked (as it generally was for the Switch 1), then you will have to go to a more extreme performance mode docked pretty obviously. You're getting 2.25x more internal pixels but you need to display 4x as many pixels (going from a 1080p handheld screen to a 4K TV).
KeijiKG
Moblin
"Realistic" is such a tainted word in online discussion. It's thrown around so authoritatively as if to shut down alternative ideas rather than to be factual or logical in general. I get so sick of people saying "realistic" when really they're just trying to say "I don't see it that way" or "I don't like that version of that idea" and just gives off the illusion like it's coming from a place on high, beyond the speaker's viewpoint.
Objectively would be realistic for Nintendo to satisfy a bottom line, which leaves a lot to the imagination on the "how" since concepts change with time. Like, backwards compatibility with the GBA didn't hurt the DS' initial run nor did 3DS hurt the DS. The guard changed eventually but I still think Switch games can sell even when the new hardware is out. Now whether those sales will be as strong after said hardware launches is a different story but that's just how console cycles get. All the same, it's not like any new titles won't sell is all I'm getting at.
From my calculations, Switch to Drake (assuming 1.1GHz docked) is an 8.6x difference. 900p/30 to 2160/60 is an 11.52x difference. You still have to double the amount of pixels per second, which is 2x gpu utilization assuming no bottleneck and perfect scaling
ItWasMeantToBe19
Manakete
Sorry, but I now require UFS 4.0 on the Switch 2 (with mandatory installs for open world games)
(this speed probably wouldn't be possible even with UFS 4.0 due to the Switch 2's likely lowish RAM bandwidth speed I would guess)
(this speed probably wouldn't be possible even with UFS 4.0 due to the Switch 2's likely lowish RAM bandwidth speed I would guess)
SoldierDelta
Designated Xenoblade Loremaster
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I had this big discussion before, but it's worth pointing out the rendering scales that Nvidia currently uses. If Nintendo wants every game to target 4K docked, here's the render scales at each DLSS preset.
| Native | Render Scale (100%) | 4K (to the nearest integer) |
| Quality | 66.6% | 1440p |
| Balanced | 58% | 1253p |
| Performance | 50% | 1080p |
| Ultra Performance | 33.3% | 720p |
I don't think Nintendo can achieve 540p to 4K and I don't think they need to. What that suggests is a render scale of 25%. That's an insane request for the hardware to pull off.
Have people even crunched numbers on power consumption for peak ufs 4.0? Or even 3.1 for that matter?
redmutineer75
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Here is a video by Alovon of Cyberpunk on DLSS 3.5 Ultra Performance (360p to 1080p), so you can be the judge of that.
TLZ
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Ugh. I hope that's not the case for Switch 2.
RennanNT
Bob-omb
Because termal and bandwidth constraints means docked mode is most likely going to be 2~2.5x more powerful than handheld mode. But TVs are 4K and the device screen is 1080p, 4x more pixels. The options are to compensate that with DLSS, or use DLSS to get to 1440p~1800p and add another upscaling on top or hold the handheld back for no reason. Looking at Switch 1st party games like TotK and Bowser Fury, they're absolutely not doing the later.
If you double the FPS, you also double the number of pixels being rendered per second. 3.4TF is more than enough for BotW 4K30 if there's no other bottleneck, but you will need a 11.5x jump if you want 60fps too.
SoldierDelta
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I can only speak from the time that I've used DLSS myself, but you can see the small cracks in the upscaling in this video.
Keyword: small
I doubt many people will notice/care about a few issues on a handheld screen. So I'd say that's pretty damn ideal.
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It's probable that the speed gap won't be as large as the resolution gap, and DLSS to 4K will be about 4x as costly as DLSS to 1080p, so it makes some sense that in general the undocked mode native resolution will be a higher percentage of 1080p than docked mode will be of 4K. Starting with 360 on handheld vs 1080 on docked is what you'd do if the docked mode was 9x as fast as undocked.
I hope ItWasMeantToBe19 is wrong, though, in forecasting that top tier Switch 2 games will choose to start with a pre-DLSS resolution lower than their Switch 1 counterparts.
ItWasMeantToBe19
Manakete
The only numbers I can see are UFS 4.0 is 6.0MB/s per mA and that it's 46% more power efficient than UFS 3.1... According to Samsung.
Most phones and cars this year are starting to use UFS 3.1 whereas UFS 4.0 is largely unusued so UFS 4.0 is very unlikely to be clear.
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DLSS can do any resolution to any other resolution. They just pick a few percentages to give specific names to to make settings less complicated for the average person. Kind of like how there might be default settings for Low, Medium, High, Ultra. They can do 540p to 4K if they want to, it just won't look nearly as close to "real" 4K as it would starting from 720 or 810 or 1080.
Alovon11
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And Qualcomm thinks Nintendo and Sony want to work with Qualcomm.
On a serious note, Qualcomm's probably already working with Sony on the PlayStation Portal. But the only area where I think Qualcomm could be enticing for Nintendo is with the custom Arm based CPU cores designed by Nuvia.
Umm..they stated the post-crowdfunding price though?
8G2 is still way cheaper than 100$ or the rest of this thing is super cheap despite how well built it is.
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At the risk of going off hardware... what does one even do with a super-powered Android handheld other than emulation? Play mobile version of Genshin Impact and Fortnite at slightly higher quality, rather than using a handheld PC and PC versions?
OP
OP
Micron mentioned that Micron's UFS 3.1 modules have a max active-mode power consumption of 960 mW.
And Micron mentioned that Micron's UFS 4.0 modules are up to 25% more power efficient compared to Micron's UFS 3.1 modules. So I assume in the absolute best case scenario, Micron's UFS 4.0 modules consume up to 720 mW at the same sequential speeds as the Micron's UFS 3.1 modules' max sequential speeds.
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Deleted member 887
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No. I don't have time to go through every game you bring up, by Crysis Remastered doesn't use the same visual settings between the One S and the Series S.
The conversation that you initially replied to was "can NG run Breath of the Wild at 4k60 without any customization." The answer is "probably not." You posted a video of a PC running 4k20 in emulation. That didn't change the answer.
You're right, brute force alone isn't the only factor here, engine changes, settings changes, optimizations are all possible. Could Breath of the Wild run at 4k60 on NG? Yes. Can it do it with just brute force, without DLSS or engine optimizations? No.
That's the conversation we're having. I'm not sure which of us is misunderstanding the other, but I think we're talking past each other.
You're missing doubling the frame rate. The number of pixels that the GPU has to push is 12x. Just because a game might be CPU limited, doesn't mean that the CPU is the only barrier.
Yes, this is exactly what I said. That's why I said "GPU limited games." But it's also why engine optimizations matter. We're only talking about brute force solutions. Again, this was a converation about whether or not the BotW demo was running in backwards compatibility mode or not. I'm not talking about what's possible for a native app on NG, I'm talking about what's achievable through a BC layer.
We know this is almost certainly not true. Sorry.
Nintendo Switch is built for speed - it doesn't use the sorts of technologies that make this possible, because they kill performance. The situation you are describing isn't technically feasible.
Goodtwin
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Im far more optimistic and believe that most games will render at 1080p on SNG and then use DLSS to scale to 4K or 1440p depending on how expensive DLSS ends up being on T239. Many of the most popular games on PS5/X are rendering at a native 4K resolution. Take COD MW2, it renders at 4K on PS5 and Series X and 1440p on Series S. With what we know about T239, it seems very likely that it should be able to render that game at 1080p. We have also seen 120fps performance modes become fairly common on the PS5 and Series consoles, so in a way, a less demanding mode for many games is already in in play. Basically, games that have a 120fps mode will scale nicely down SNG, but will run at 60fps instead. There are numerous ways to reduce how demanding a game is beyond just pixel count.
each UFS generation has improved on power consumption and as I understand it UFS 2.0 is lower power compared to eMMC
UFS 3.1 was in the Galaxy S21 & is common now in budget smartphones
UFS 4.0 is in the S23 & can be expected in most Android flagships going forward
eMMC was last updated in 2019.. its only advantage is cost but this is an area Nintendo has tried to save historically
I personally struggle with how 250 MB/s from eMMC is compatible with the current development landscape let alone next gen AAA games
I don't see why Nintendo would opt for blazing fast 3D NAND carts and keep eMMC... but I am not a computer engineer or developer
ItWasMeantToBe19
Manakete
Not bad at all for our 15 W to 22 W nightmare boy
The pro with 256GB of UFS 4.0 & 12GB of LPDDR5X @ $440 retail is incredibly interesting. We have to assume Nintendo has much better economies of scale when negotiating pricing for parts to the successor of one of the best selling consoles of all time compared to a crowd funded niche productUmm..they stated the post-crowdfunding price though?
8G2 is still way cheaper than 100$ or the rest of this thing is super cheap despite how well built it is.
Ghostsonplanets
Ghost in the Sales
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Then they probably got a heck of a deal or QCOM have dropped prices of 8G2. If so, that's quite interesting because the price points are basically what we expect from the Switch 2 and shows that it's very feasible for Nintendo to have a profitable device at $399.Umm..they stated the post-crowdfunding price though?
8G2 is still way cheaper than 100$ or the rest of this thing is super cheap despite how well built it is.
they'd make great indie game platforms, but users aren't too keen on spending money in the app stores. I'd want one to make games for. they feel like the successors to the PSP/Vita/DS/3DS in a way of not trying to be "full console games on the go", but bit sized experiences
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Where are you getting 11 times? As in where is the post, I can’t find it
pelusilla6
Bob-omb
Next years we are going to see a lot of mobile ports. In Asia its a biiiig market.
Concernt
Optimism is non-negotiable
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I don't think 16GB LPDDR5/512GB UFS 3.1 is off the table for Nintendo, but I think 12GB/256GB is more likely. Nintendo has a lot more money being spent on the device in other areas, like coming with two wireless controllers, a dock, etc.
Ghostsonplanets
Ghost in the Sales
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Most of people buy it for emulation. There are some interesting AAA Mobile games coming, but a lot of games lack controller support on Android or lock you to play with only the controller users playerbase (A minority). Most people who want to play Android games just a buy a phone. So these Android Handhelds are a niche of a niche.
robertman2
Chain Chomp
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Nah, those iphone ports aren't a sign of things to come, it'll be those and nothing else.
Mobile gamers won't pay ten bucks for a Mario game, they're not paying fucking 60 or 70 bucks for one
RennanNT
Bob-omb
Where are you getting 11 times? As in where is the post, I can’t find it
- 2160 / 900 = 2.4x taller
- Same aspect ratio means it will be 2.4x wider as well
- Therefore, 2.4 x 2.4 = 5.76x the number of pixels per second for 4K30
- Double the fps and you also double the pixels per second, for a total of 11.52x, for 4k60.
Lancelot
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That's one of the coolest showcases I've seen for the PS5's SSD, tbh. Can't wait for the other SIE studios to put out their real deals.
D
Deleted member 887
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Can't find my own post, either, but it was just this bare bones calc:Where are you getting 11 times? As in where is the post, I can’t find it
Code:
900p = 1,440,000 pixels per frame,
@30fps = 43,200,000 pixels per second
2160p = 8,294,400 pixels per frame
@60fps = 43,200,000
43,200,000 / 43,200,000 = 11.52xConcernt
Optimism is non-negotiable
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The "map" is sort of hiding the loading, with the "loading" screen being the map with the little bar filling up. Since this still takes a few seconds (albeit very few), it's honestly not that far off from the Breath of the Wild tech demo at Gamescom, which had a fade-out-fade-in without so much as a loading icon. I wonder if they can load the whole world that fast, if fast travel couldn't be even faster, since a lot of things would already be loaded in.
Of course there's a huge difference in asset size and asset density between the two games, but still, this hidden, super fast loading screen should be entirely possible on NG Switch, if reports are to be believed.
D
Deleted member 887
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Quick add on. I went to look at Switch overclocking more deeply, just to see how much GPU overclocking makes a difference and realistically, if big leaps in frame rate could be made without big leaps in GPU power.
The answer is that overclocking the RAM is necessary but not sufficient for a higher frame rate experience. Because BotW uses dynamic resolution scaling, where the bandwidth becomes the limiting factor, and the frame rate drops before the res drops to compensate. Upping the memory bandwidth just lets the GPU stay working, so that resolution scaling doesn't kick in as often, and the frame rate stays smooth.
Handheld can get to a stable 60fps update, but it requires a GPU overclock of 2.46x. Which happens to be very close to the 2.5x pixel difference (648p30 to 720p60). This very consistent with the idea that while the base game is GPU limited by design, but it's failure conditions are around keeping the GPU fed.
robertman2
Chain Chomp
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There's a few setpieces showing that off in the Digital Foundry video
Lancelot
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I was going to mention the huge difference in asset density but yeah, that should be totally possible if PS4-tier assets will be the average for Switch NG. It might still be important to consider the load could very much be instantaneous, they're just dressing it up to not seem like the world's materializing from thin air. Spiderman 1 was already utilized before the release of PS5 to show off load times of roughly... 0.415 seconds, wouldn't surprise me at all.
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