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StarTopic Future Nintendo Hardware & Technology Speculation & Discussion |ST| (Read the staff posts before commenting!)

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lemonfresh said:
Compared to switch 1 how long do you guys think it will take switch 2 to get emulated on pc? I think with emulators for switch 1 there was one running like less than a year after switch's release with Mario odyssey. Wonder if it will take longer if switch 2 is more advanced.
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It'll take forever, probably as long as it took for PS4 to get a functional, rudimentary emulator that can't even run commercial games.
 
Lancelot said:
It'll take forever, probably as long as it took for PS4 to get a functional, rudimentary emulator that can't even run commercial games.
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There is much less of a demand to emulate PlayStation than there is for Nintendo consoles. We don't have Xbox One or Series emulators and OG Xbox and Xbox 360 emulators took ages to be developed for the same reason.
 
Individualised said:
There is much less of a demand to emulate PlayStation than there is for Nintendo consoles. We don't have Xbox One or Series emulators and OG Xbox and Xbox 360 emulators took ages to be developed for the same reason.
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Sure, but PS4 still can't be reliably emulated with the tech we have today, the lack of interest is far from being the biggest issue. Like mentioned, Switch 2 will inherit a PSC and lots of custom hardware that every single game will utilize uniquely and differently, and that's without considering the fact it's a superior console to PS4 in every regard. This isn't getting an emulator, if it even does.
 
Lancelot said:
Sure, but PS4 still can't be reliably emulated with the tech we have today, the lack of interest is far from being the biggest issue. Like mentioned, Switch 2 will inherit a PSC and lots of custom hardware that every single game will utilize uniquely and differently, and that's without considering the fact it's a superior console to PS4 in every regard. This isn't getting an emulator, if it even does.
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I'm interested in the exact issues preventing development of PS4 emulation so far, is there a technical write-up or anything like that I can look at?
 
Goodtwin said:
Question for you guys, is VRR something that requires specific hardware in order to be supported? It is a feature that has become more and more common in TV's, even bargain TV's, but the game console must support VRR in order for it to work. Switch does not support VRR, but could it if Nintendo wanted to include support it through a firmware update? Or does it need to be built into the hardware?
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The DisplayPort and HDMI versions supported by the Switch hardware predate VRR, so no way to add it via firmware update. AMD's Free-Sync technology I think might be supportable, but both it and G-Synch are dying out so I doubt it would be worth the technology investment.
 
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lemonfresh said:
Compared to switch 1 how long do you guys think it will take switch 2 to get emulated on pc? I think with emulators for switch 1 there was one running like less than a year after switch's release with Mario odyssey. Wonder if it will take longer if switch 2 is more advanced.
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I think that they will be able to get the base games running slightly later than the Switch (lifespan wise). The difficulty will come in implementing DLSS, however, they could try to replace it with FSR 2 injection if that was ever possible.
 
Individualised said:
I'm interested in the exact issues preventing development of PS4 emulation so far, is there a technical write-up or anything like that I can look at?
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As far as I know, PS4 is a modern device inheriting modern shaders and a modern architecture (x86), which means modders are naturally having a hard time to find the right instructions the CPU uses. The GPU relies on a lot of propietary Sony microcode and API which nobody has managed to crack to date, either. At this point of complexity, emulation becomes next to (if not) impossible and virtualization becomes sensible in theory, just what it is.
 
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Pokemaniac said:
github.com

ncm: update for new 17.0.0 apis · Atmosphere-NX/Atmosphere@13ee9a8

Atmosphère is a work-in-progress customized firmware for the Nintendo Switch. - ncm: update for new 17.0.0 apis · Atmosphere-NX/Atmosphere@13ee9a8
github.com github.com

CNMT - Nintendo Switch Brew

switchbrew.org switchbrew.org

This atmosphere commit would seem to suggest that a previously reserved byte is being used as a platform indicator as of 17.0.0.

That is... not very ambiguous.
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It could have always been a platform ID, just with the value of 0 = NX making it look like an empty field. Until now, where obviously out there in the world there are some packages being built with platform 1 = [REDACTED], so the firmware has gained the ability to actually inspect that platform field.

I wonder if the Switch 1 is actually checking that field now, though. Platform ID 0 packages should be all it ever has to worry about it. If it's not using it for anything, but the methods for checking have shown up now in 17.0.0 anyway, that could lend some credence to the idea that most or all Switch 2 work is merged into the main branch now. The Switch 2 firmware has probably needed to use this method for some time now, in order to roll out devkits using platform ID 1 packages.
 
LiC said:
It could have always been a platform ID, just with the value of 0 = NX making it look like an empty field. Until now, where obviously out there in the world there are some packages being built with platform 1 = [REDACTED], so the firmware has gained the ability to actually inspect that platform field.

I wonder if the Switch 1 is actually checking that field now, though. Platform ID 0 packages should be all it ever has to worry about it. If it's not using it for anything, but the methods for checking have shown up now in 17.0.0 anyway, that could lend some credence to the idea that most or all Switch 2 work is merged into the main branch now. The Switch 2 firmware has probably needed to use this method for some time now, in order to roll out devkits using platform ID 1 packages.
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That's fair. It's previously considered reserved by dataminers, but this may have been its intended meaning all along.
 
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Lancelot said:
Sure, but PS4 still can't be reliably emulated with the tech we have today, the lack of interest is far from being the biggest issue. Like mentioned, Switch 2 will inherit a PSC and lots of custom hardware that every single game will utilize uniquely and differently, and that's without considering the fact it's a superior console to PS4 in every regard. This isn't getting an emulator, if it even does.
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Everything eventually will be emulated
 
I wonder if the huge changes to the OS are indicative of a system software mature enough to be flashed onto the console at production. If so, that brings our timeline forward, if they're using 17.0.0, and means finalisation of initial batch units is in progress or soon to be completed. Very compelling.
 
Lancelot said:
"Eventually" long after the console has been replaced for Switch 3, probably. For the foreseeable future, don't expect anything.
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It's also not true that everything can or will eventually be emulated. A bunch of smaller consoles and systems simply don't have any work being done. Xbox One will probably never be emulated, same for Series X, because there's zero incentive.
 
Concernt said:
It's also not true that everything can or will eventually be emulated. A bunch of smaller consoles and systems simply don't have any work being done. Xbox One will probably never be emulated, same for Series X, because there's zero incentive.
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Xbox doesn't really need to be emulated with pretty much everything coming to PC
 
Concernt said:
It's also not true that everything can or will eventually be emulated. A bunch of smaller consoles and systems simply don't have any work being done. Xbox One will probably never be emulated, same for Series X, because there's zero incentive.
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That's less incentive and more the lack of bespoke manufacturer APIs and microcode known to modders per see. Tegra X1 being such a wildly documented chip helped a lot to get those Switch emulators going as quickly as they were made, that and Nvidia messing up because of the Fusee Glee exploit.
 
Lancelot said:
That's less incentive and more the lack of bespoke manufacturer APIs and microcode known to modders per see. Tegra X1 being such a wildly documented chip helped a lot to get those Switch emulators going as quickly as they were made, that and Nvidia messing up because of the Fusee Glee exploit.
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Yeah, that and building it off 3DS, so Yuzu got off the ground quick
 
image.png


So a couple of weeks someone mentioned a MR glasses as a potential Switch switching option, and the idea kept me thinking and made this my own concept. Instead of having a screen, the handheld mode will be MR mode, where it will display a screen in the MR glasses and lets you take it everywhere, while the system without screen having more room for advanced hardware or a better battery, or both. While if you put it in the dock, you can still connect it to the TV, but if you take the Dock with you on travels, you can switch it to a projector, you and people around you can still enjoy the games while playing on projector mode on the big screen.

And then I remembered, hey, weren't there rumors of it having a LCD Screen again. So yeah, it probably isn't what is shown in the image, but I think it's a fun concept.
 
Individualised said:
I'm interested in the exact issues preventing development of PS4 emulation so far, is there a technical write-up or anything like that I can look at?
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There isn't a robust one that I am aware of, but it's all the standard problems of emulation, just dialed up to 11.

It's a Very Large, Very Complex CPU architecture to emulate, it's an undocumented GPU, it's a giant OS, and the system was relatively powerful. All of that makes it an exceptionally difficult problem.

Single threaded performance isn't growing as fast as it has in the past, and emulation tends to be very single threaded. Meaning that despite the fact that your computer feels so much more powerful than the PS4 was, it hasn't made the kind of leap necessary to make emulating an older machine "easy."

Switch emulation is easier on most levels here. It's an easier to emulate CPU architecture, which happened to have a lot of mature, open-source emulators already out in the wild. The OS is very small. The GPU is difficult to emulate, like all of them, and the microcode isn't documented, but the rest of the architecture extensively is. And most importantly, it's just a small machine (and there are still shader compilation issues).
 
oldpuck said:
There isn't a robust one that I am aware of, but it's all the standard problems of emulation, just dialed up to 11.

It's a Very Large, Very Complex CPU architecture to emulate, it's an undocumented GPU, it's a giant OS, and the system was relatively powerful. All of that makes it an exceptionally difficult problem.

Single threaded performance isn't growing as fast as it has in the past, and emulation tends to be very single threaded. Meaning that despite the fact that your computer feels so much more powerful than the PS4 was, it hasn't made the kind of leap necessary to make emulating an older machine "easy."

Switch emulation is easier on most levels here. It's an easier to emulate CPU architecture, which happened to have a lot of mature, open-source emulators already out in the wild. The OS is very small. The GPU is difficult to emulate, like all of them, and the microcode isn't documented, but the rest of the architecture extensively is. And most importantly, it's just a small machine (and there are still shader compilation issues).
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Nice, great analysis as always. Just a question, regarding the "small machine" part... Considering T239's GPU does have more cores than PS4's (1536 vs 1152) and it's massively more complex in every way imaginable, are we really looking at a titanic problem (ignoring for a second how long it may take)?
 
Lancelot said:
Nice, great analysis as always. Just a question, regarding the "small machine" part... Considering T239's GPU does have more cores than PS4's (1536 vs 1152) and it's massively more complex in every way imaginable, are we really looking at a titanic problem (ignoring for a second how long it may take)?
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I don't think the size of the GPU is really the bottleneck. It's more about how modern and customized it is.
 
A few pages late, but I’d welcome the return of asymmetric gameplay via Handheld casting to TV via the Dock.

It was pretty fun but underutilized on Wii U. I suspect it would once again be pretty fun and underutilized.
 
karmitt said:
A few pages late, but I’d welcome the return of asymmetric gameplay via Handheld casting to TV via the Dock.

It was pretty fun but underutilized on Wii U. I suspect it would once again be pretty fun and underutilized.
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It would also allow for perfect DS emulation!
 
Dakhil said:
I think much longer than with the Nintendo Switch. I think Drake's likely to inherit the Platform Security Controller (PSC) from Orin (p. 19), which interestingly uses a RISC-V core (p. 3). And LiC found mentions of PSC on system update 17.0.0.

Therefore, I think Nintendo's new hardware can't be hacked without resorting to hardware modding. And even so, hardware modding Nintendo's new hardware doesn't guarantee being easily able to hack Nintendo's new hardware afterwards thanks to the PSC.
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Thank fuck. I hope it does end up being never.
 
epicmartin7 said:
Y'know, dumb thing. To save money, what if Nintendo includes the dock inside the switch itself. And just relies on the kickstand to prop stuff up. 🤔
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They could, but in my opinion that really takes the ease of “switching” out of the equation.

One extremely minor gripe i have with the steam deck and ally is that i have to plug in a cable rather than slide it into a dock.

Really doesn’t change much, but the slight convenience makes the switch feel so much better as a hybrid console
 
redmutineer75 said:
The idea of modular d-pads, face buttons, and analog sticks are definitely interesting, even if I personally think such a design would create way more problems than it would solve. Also, why is the right stick and button placement swapped from the original? The reason why it did that was for parity between joycons when controlling with a single one, suboptimal though it may be.
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The idea is that there would not be a distinct left or right Joy-con. They can attach to either side of the tablet which would also allow parity for multiplayer. Arguably preferable because currently the two Joy-cons are slightly different.

I agree with you on the potential difficulties with modularity. It seemed like the best compromise to allow for full-size controller buttons/components within the limited usable surface area on a portable controller.
 
Lancelot said:
Nice, great analysis as always. Just a question, regarding the "small machine" part... Considering T239's GPU does have more cores than PS4's (1536 vs 1152) and it's massively more complex in every way imaginable, are we really looking at a titanic problem (ignoring for a second how long it may take)?
Click to expand...
Pokemaniac said:
I don't think the size of the GPU is really the bottleneck. It's more about how modern and customized it is.
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The "modern and customized" aspect is what makes getting a correct emulator so difficult. Lots of reverse engineering, just painful memory poking and documenting and trial and error.

The "size" is what makes a performant emulator so difficult. The bigger the base machine, the more horsepower you need to get it up and running. And these two things - correctness and performance - exacerbate each other. The smaller the gap between the original machine and your machine, the more clever (and hacky) optimization tricks you need. But the more of those tricks, the harder and harder it is to guarantee that the emulation is accurate - and if the system is complex, the harder it is to make accurate, and the more that accurate matters.

Switch NG emulation will have a significant leg up, just because so much of existing emulation will still be usable - the CPU, the GPU, and the OS will all be descended from what's in Switch, so the existing emulators can be used as a base. And despite the huge leap in power, it's still a tablet, so throwing 12 core CPUs with RTX 5090s at the problem for the first few years is still a little viable.

But a lot comes down to how rapidly the system is cracked. If system security holds up for a while, it can slow initial emulator development down a lot. Emulators kind of need to hit a critical mass. With enough functional games, people start using them and uncovering bugs and edge cases, which feeds back into improving the emulator, which brings in more users (and developers). Because Switch emulation was very good during the Switch generation itself, it brought in a lot of eyeballs. Yuzu was getting to partially playable state within 18 months of Switch launch

If Switch NG is uncracked for years, needs Nvidia hardware to run, etc - it won't stop emulation from getting there, but it could keep it a decade out. Which is likely Nintendo's goal, to prevent emulation from making commercial games playable on the day they're released.
 
oldpuck said:
The "modern and customized" aspect is what makes getting a correct emulator so difficult. Lots of reverse engineering, just painful memory poking and documenting and trial and error.

The "size" is what makes a performant emulator so difficult. The bigger the base machine, the more horsepower you need to get it up and running. And these two things - correctness and performance - exacerbate each other. The smaller the gap between the original machine and your machine, the more clever (and hacky) optimization tricks you need. But the more of those tricks, the harder and harder it is to guarantee that the emulation is accurate - and if the system is complex, the harder it is to make accurate, and the more that accurate matters.

Switch NG emulation will have a significant leg up, just because so much of existing emulation will still be usable - the CPU, the GPU, and the OS will all be descended from what's in Switch, so the existing emulators can be used as a base. And despite the huge leap in power, it's still a tablet, so throwing 12 core CPUs with RTX 5090s at the problem for the first few years is still a little viable.

But a lot comes down to how rapidly the system is cracked. If system security holds up for a while, it can slow initial emulator development down a lot. Emulators kind of need to hit a critical mass. With enough functional games, people start using them and uncovering bugs and edge cases, which feeds back into improving the emulator, which brings in more users (and developers). Because Switch emulation was very good during the Switch generation itself, it brought in a lot of eyeballs. Yuzu was getting to partially playable state within 18 months of Switch launch

If Switch NG is uncracked for years, needs Nvidia hardware to run, etc - it won't stop emulation from getting there, but it could keep it a decade out. Which is likely Nintendo's goal, to prevent emulation from making commercial games playable on the day they're released.
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I see... So it's the actual size of the device rather than the size of any component in particular, I get it. I assume the others did as well, your explanations are awesome to read, to the surprise of no one.
 
Mobius said:
Software security seems to be on top here, even when you consider that every big updates always fix a thing or two.
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There hasn't been a single software vulnerability, which is impressive. Every single one has depended on hardware.

While I'm a huge advocate for people deserving to own their own devices and do what they want with them, I can't lie that it's impressive what Nintendo has done.
 
InsaneZero said:
Early adopters of any new product generally don't fall under the "broader audience" category, and the original Switch is a great demonstration of this concept. It launched with Breath of the Wild and Mario Kart 8 Deluxe came a month afterwards. The major "broad audience" titles like Pokemon and Animal Crossing also took a while to see a Switch entry, and the original reveal presentation was focused on titles like Skyrim and SMTV instead.
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"Broader audience" was how Nintendo Switch managed to have legs despite not have a definitive Switch-only "launch title". Breath of the Wild was a WiiU port.

You don't see the Switch version of BotW have one of its marketing points be "Now runs at 900p!". It wasn't the tech, but the practicality of the Switch which sold it.
 
eye0h said:
It would be insanely funny if NG got cracked in like the first 2 weeks
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Funny, albeit very very very very unlikely.

Modders will find a way though. Isn't there an internet law saying that the harder that someone tries to hide or prevent something, the harder people will work to make it happen? Yeah...
 
I think a key difference with Nintendo hardware compared to Sony and MS is that there's financial incentive for homebrew and Hackers to look around at solutions for cracking the system due to Nintendo being the last system with exclusive software. That being said, Switch 2 increased specs, robust and more modern security and lack of hardware flaws will make it so that it will take quite some time for it to be done. Nintendo and Nvidia will also have looked at what happened with TX1 and Switch and will make sure that it doesn't repeat again.
 
Ghostsonplanets said:
I think a key difference with Nintendo hardware compared to Sony and MS is that there's financial incentive for homebrew and Hackers to look around at solutions for cracking the system due to Nintendo being the last system with exclusive software. That being said, Switch 2 increased specs, robust and more modern security and lack of hardware flaws will make it so that it will take quite some time for it to be done. Nintendo and Nvidia will also have looked at what happened with TX1 and Switch and will make sure that it doesn't repeat again.
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the main reason, people want to emulate/pirate Nintendo hardware/software is because Nintendo refuse to lower the price of it hardware/software, it absurd you have to pay $60(R$300) in games that released nearly 7 years ago, that very concering in countries with terrible GDP like Brazil, where everything you paid half is taxes
 
Giancarlo said:
the main reason, people want to emulate/pirate Nintendo hardware/software is because Nintendo refuse to lower the price of it hardware/software
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I don’t think there is any indication that emulation is more popular for Nintendo consoles.

People wanna pirate, and I don’t think Nintendo’s specific choices have a lot to do with that, relative to the rest of the industry
 
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