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StarTopic Future Nintendo Hardware & Technology Speculation & Discussion |ST| (Read the staff posts before commenting!)

The cameras in the ds and 3ds didn't add much to videogames. The 3d camera was a silly novelty that wore off pretty quickly, even quicker than the console's whole silly gimmick of 3d.

The big problem with cameras is also that they would be terrible compared to the one in your pocket. Even if they picked a decent one today, it would look terrible by mid generation. AR hasn't even found particular success in smartphones outside of Pokemon GO (and even then, the big draw of the game was "catch pokemon on your smartphone with friends, which could have been achieved using gps without ar").

AR and VR constantly get depicted as the next big thing, but while VR makes sense but is still severely limited by today's tech, I never understood AR fans.

The only reason I can see for the camera in the console is a better kinect for Just Dance and party games. Maybe a mode in Mario Kart where you mime driving a wheel and that's it, it's a feature that requires a lot more space than traditional gaming and is very shallow, like most gimmicks. On this very note, I own two psvita and I still don't understand what the point of the rear touch screen was.
Maybe some higher resolution cameras with stereo will give some better depth calculation. Esp with some nvidia AI on board. Or the Depth sensors can make for a far more stable AR. Maybe move the the joycons cameras to the back or have them pivot, as well as being more Hi-res.I The 3DS AR was fun for what it was. I don't think that cpu was best suited for those applications. But something like a switch successor should be able to kill it in this dpt. I wont dwell on the Autostereo screen, since there has been no hint of this in the successor but I do believe that would make for great immersion in regards to Ar.

Some great looking games on 3DS/N3DS as well to justify that hardware imo. Resident evil revelations looked fantastic.
 
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Given that drake likely still has some kind of OFA, but not enough performance for frame gen, something to do with cameras and computer vision would make sense. The main problem I'm having is that all the ways of using it that I can think (motion tracking, AR, maybe eye tracking) of would only really work in portable mode.

This is my biggest sticking point. Where I’m landing is that maybe the feature isn’t core to ongoing gameplay, but something the player needs to engage with on occasion. Like it will stop and ask you to use handheld mode to scan something into the game.
 
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The IR sensor in the joy cons is one of the most useless things they added just to drive cost up for no reason. The best thing they could do for the new switch is to gut all the unnecessary features. Knowing Nintendo, they’ll probably add more sh!t that no one uses.
Wasn't the IR camera used for Ring Fit Adventure which ended up being a top 10 seller on Switch until ToTK knocked it out?
 
There is some nuance there, but yeah. To vastly oversimplify you can think of the Switch as like 1/5th of a PS4 in terms of GPU performance, and the NG as, like, 1/3rd of a PS5. That's a very silly way of thinking of things, but it does help you sort of see that the gap is closing, but the gap isn't tiny.

On the other hand, if we look at the CPU, the story inverts. The gap between NG and current gen is larger than it was between Switch and last gen.


I think it's multi-layered. Ultimately, the bottleneck for a port will always be cash and time. Randy Linden put Quake on the GBA for goodness sake. The number of miracle ports will not just be about hardware, it will be about number of Switch NG sold. Better hardware makes port costs go down. But higher sales makes expensive ports profitable. So don't consider any of these problems "insurmountable".

I tend to think that CPU is going to be an issue. Not the only issue, and not an issue for every game, but Starfield and A Plague Tale: Requiem are both games that tax next gen CPUs to their limit to enable the core gameplay.

Then there are games like Gotham Knights - a game that doesn't so much stress the CPU for gameplay reasons, as use it as a crutch. I'm not defending that game, but there will be more of those. And there will be games like the Life is Strange series - games that aren't impossible on smaller hardware, but are only economically viable because a small team can just use Unreal Engine defaults for everything, and throw lots of CPU power at mocap'ed animation, and not pay a dozen programmers to optimize the engine.

I also think the GPU will start becoming more and more of an issue. We're coming out of the long cross-gen period, we're going to see more and more 30fps games, more and more low-res/high reconstruction games. We're going to see more games skip Xbox because of Series S + Weak Sales, and we're going to see nigh-unplayable Series S versions.

At some point devs will be competing with each other to deliver better and better looking experiences on the same hardware, and they will start deploying the sorts of cuts for "low end hardware" on the current gen consoles to do it. AAA game development that starts today will be targeting a 2028 release date. That will only be the 3-4th year of the Switch NG, but it will be the cross-gen period for the Playstation Six.

This all sounds like Nintendoom, and I don't mean that. I actually think I'm pretty optimistic! Last gen consoles were a little weak, relative to where technology was at the time. They had very bad CPUs, and very modest GPUs. Switch was able to capitalize on that, offering a more modern GPU despite the lack of power, and a CPU which actually started to get close to what the then-current consoles were doing. Those were the aces-in-the-hole for making games like The Witcher III possible.

The PS5 and the Series X aren't just more powerful consoles than last gen, they're more powerful relative to their era. AMD was now top-of-the-heap on CPU tech, and if you pull up any list of "best graphics cards in 2020" and compare specs, the consoles are competitive. Not to mention the forward thinking bells and whistles - SSDs, custom decompression hardware, 3D audio engines.

These consoles don't have the sorts of weaknesses that give NG as much "catchup" room as the Switch had, and yet - Nintendo seems to be delivering. The CPU gap was going to get larger, but Nintendo is keeping it from becoming massive. The GPU gap is getting smaller, despite the 10x leap that the Series X made over the Xbox One. DLSS 2 and Nvidia's RT solution are more forward thinking than the AMD counterparts. Nintendo seems to be keeping pace with storage speed and decompression hardware.
Many thanks for this, interesting, useful and thorough write up. I may not know much about hardware beyond the basics, but I am a high-performance software developer, so this isn't going over my head. Just wish I knew the details of how the different components of game engines used the hardware but anyway.

I hear you and agree, expecting every AAA multiplat to hit Switch NG is asking to be disappointed, but I do think it's going to be much better than last gen.
I think games making the most of the PS5 and Xbox Series is going to be rarer than games making the most of the PS4, it's just too expensive, and some games just don't need to by design (e.g. MK1, hence releasing on Switch).
Instead, I imagine many games, even some big ones, will, and probably already are, using the horse power to brute force through computation problems that in the past, would have required a lot of optimisation work instead. This puts Switch NG in a good position. Panic Button said it themselves once, if a game is super well optimised for the original platforms, that can make the Switch port harder, because then they have to make cuts to get the game running, instead of just making performance gains through pure programmatic optimisation.

So then it just becomes about time and money, like you said. But again, I think Switch NG will have an advantage over Switch. Switch is almost the best selling hardware ever, yet many games that could have been downgraded for it, skipped it. Why? Because even though the MK11s and Witcher 3s sold well, they didn't sell unbelievably well, because you look at those games and immediately see how butchered they were. Witcher 3 is borderline unplayable on a large TV.
But diminishing returns in graphics are 100% real, and I think it's going to help Switch NG big time. I honestly can't see the difference between Mortal Kombat 11 and Mortal Kombat 1. Would I see the difference if I put them side by side, frame by frame, yeah probably but why would I do that? As a result, I feel like it's almost inevitable that the games that DO make the effort to downgrade for Switch NG aren't going to be as obviously downgraded as Switch ports were, and therefore, they'll sell much better than the Switch ports sold, and they already did decently.

DBZ Tenkaichi 4 could have been made for Switch as the target platform, since it's by far the most popular current platform, and then upgraded for other systems - but they'd never do that because the game would be so obviously held back by that Switch target, it would look so far behind all its competitors.
But would DBZ Tenkaichi 5 primarily targeting Switch NG be such a big problem? It's subjective, but I think graphical returns are diminishing so much that that game would still look perfectly attractive to all players on all platforms even if it targets Switch NG primarily, and that means a 60fps version day 1, instead of a 30fps compromised late port like every Bandai game on Switch.
I don't expect this to happen for the AAAA Battlefields, and Assassin's Creeds of the world (though they could still get downports maybe) but I do hope that the likes of Street Fighter 7, Sonic Frontiers Successor, LEGO-whatever's-next, should be 60fps on Switch NG and arrive day 1. Maybe devs will disagree, and choose to get every ounce of graphical fidelity instead, and I'll be wrong, but I think that'll be their mistake and I think most gamers (beyond the internet bubble) won't appreciate the small graphical improvements that caused the sacrifice of a good Switch NG version.

Sorry for how long this was, I had so much to say, I feel like this sums up my entire expectation for Switch NG and its relationship with 3rd parties.
 
This new leaker seems to know too many things in too many directions which gives me a weird feeling. If it's true they had real info in the past it's definitely notable but we're talking Sega projects, SE projects, Nintendo reveals, hardware... That's a lot at once.
This person was a regular in a community thread in Era and has shared Sega and Square stuff for month before getting caught. It's because some of the thing he said ended up true that he got some attention in the first place, so it does seems like he really is (or was at the very least) privy to some Sega/Square project for some reason. And every leaks he does relate to Sega/Square in some way so at least he is consistent.

Still, that doesn't mean everything he says is true or will happen, but I am willing to at least give him the benefit of doubt.
 
The cameras in the ds and 3ds didn't add much to videogames. The 3d camera was a silly novelty that wore off pretty quickly, even quicker than the console's whole silly gimmick of 3d.

The big problem with cameras is also that they would be terrible compared to the one in your pocket. Even if they picked a decent one today, it would look terrible by mid generation. AR hasn't even found particular success in smartphones outside of Pokemon GO (and even then, the big draw of the game was "catch pokemon on your smartphone with friends, which could have been achieved using gps without ar").

AR and VR constantly get depicted as the next big thing, but while VR makes sense but is still severely limited by today's tech, I never understood AR fans.

The only reason I can see for the camera in the console is a better kinect for Just Dance and party games. Maybe a mode in Mario Kart where you mime driving a wheel and that's it, it's a feature that requires a lot more space than traditional gaming and is very shallow, like most gimmicks. On this very note, I own two psvita and I still don't understand what the point of the rear touch screen was.
As much as I want to agree with you, Face Raiders on the 3ds was too much fun.
 
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Nate and necro are awfully quiet after the recent leaks, intriguing...
honestly thats a good thing. A lot is seemingly coming out but it feels very messy. Hero either said too much or it's a fake but that's weird cause the OP in resetera is known for relaying his info and she verified him.

But also, it's friday haha.
 
Honestly, I don’t buy the whole camera thing. I could maybe get behind the idea of an AR camera, but the question then becomes how is it utilized, and could it be utilized in both docked, and handheld configurations? Something just seems off given it’s meant to be a hybrid system.

That makes me wonder if Nintendo will be prioritizing handheld gaming this time around as the forefront of the device while docked is mainly a secondary method of gaming. Honestly, that would make more sense given Nintendo's own history in the handheld gaming realm.

That said, it is clear the Switch 1, while still a hybrid system, is technically focused as a handheld device that can dock. But for the most part, there's parity between the profiles being used, and how games are played. Maybe Nintendo's own internal data suggests gamers are more about handheld gaming than docked (say 67% handheld, 33% docked), but in order to maintain parity, will offer both configs as standard.

Adding more fuel to this fire is the lack of a docked only Switch. We have two hybrid Switch systems, and the Switch Lite, but no TV-only version. We’ve talked on this thread before concerning the lack of one, so maybe there is some truth to this. A camera built into the system I don’t believe would work properly outside of playing handheld.

What I’m worried about is how Nintendo is planning to handle this sequel of a system. What we want is Terminator 2, not Highlander 2.
 
Honestly, I don’t buy the whole camera thing. I could maybe get behind the idea of an AR camera, but the question then becomes how is it utilized, and could it be utilized in both docked, and handheld configurations? Something just seems off given it’s meant to be a hybrid system.

That makes me wonder if Nintendo will be prioritizing handheld gaming this time around as the forefront of the device while docked is mainly a secondary method of gaming. Honestly, that would make more sense given Nintendo's own history in the handheld gaming realm.

That said, it is clear the Switch 1, while still a hybrid system, is technically focused as a handheld device that can dock. But for the most part, there's parity between the profiles being used, and how games are played. Maybe Nintendo's own internal data suggests gamers are more about handheld gaming than docked (say 67% handheld, 33% docked), but in order to maintain parity, will offer both configs as standard.

Adding more fuel to this fire is the lack of a docked only Switch. We have two hybrid Switch systems, and the Switch Lite, but no TV-only version. We’ve talked on this thread before concerning the lack of one, so maybe there is some truth to this. A camera built into the system I don’t believe would work properly outside of playing handheld.

What I’m worried about is how Nintendo is planning to handle this sequel of a system. What we want is Terminator 2, not Highlander 2.
Yeah, I'm looking for an Xbox Series X type upgrade, not a Wii.
 
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My god, were the Jaguar really that bad?
That bad yet still ran incredibly looking games like God of War, Uncharted, The Order, Last of Us, Ratchet, Spiderman etc.

I know there are other components involved of course, but Switch 2 should do well.
 

SoftBank Group Corp. has lined up some of Arm Ltd.'s biggest customers as strategic investors for the chip company's initial public offering, including Apple Inc., Nvidia Corp., Intel Corp. and Samsung Electronics Co., according to people familiar with the situation.

The investors also include Advanced Micro Devices Inc., Cadence Design Systems Inc., Alphabet Inc.'s Google, Synopsys Inc., among others, said the people, who asked not to identified because the details haven't been announced. SoftBank has been in discussions with Arm customers and partners for months, but the plans are just being finalized now. Still, details could change as the company gets closer to the IPO, which is expected to have its investor roadshow underway by next week.

The investors will put in amounts ranging from $25 million to $100 million, according to the people.

The show of support from some of the tech industry's biggest names will help bolster the offering, which is expected to raise $5 billion to $7 billion. SoftBank, which acquired Arm in 2016, was previously aiming to value the chip business at $60 billion to $70 billion, but the figure could be more in the $50 billion to $60 billion range, Bloomberg has reported.

Arm is considering pricing its shares on Sept. 13, and the stock will start trading the next day, Bloomberg reported earlier this week. The roadshow to promote the offering is expected to come after the Labor Day holiday on Monday.

Representatives from Arm, Google, Nvidia and Synopsys declined to comment. AMD, Apple, Cadence, Intel and Samsung didn't immediately respond to requests for comment.
 
Maybe Nintendo's own internal data suggests gamers are more about handheld gaming than docked (say 67% handheld, 33% docked)
I think I read somewhere it's the other way around. Maybe 80/20 even. I can't remember where. It's been quite a while.
 
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Nate and necro are awfully quiet after the recent leaks, intriguing...
The recent leaks barely even qualify as leaks. I don't understand why they've got everyone in a huff.

New game card was expected, BC was expected, FF7R, a PS4 game looking closer to PS5 level was expected (by many of us). Devkits have been out for a while, we know this.

Nothing here is interesting or new. And the source probably isn't even legit.
 
I'll be honest, as someone who has been lurking for a while without an account, I'm not sure if I get the recent hype that's happened over the last few days. It seems that someone mentioned that they were an insider, but didn't really give any new details, and then a lot of hype spawned from that? Even more than when whatever Nintendo showed at Gamescom was called "impressive". Could someone explain why the recent stuff is a big deal to a newcomer?
 
better to stay quiet, then risking Nintendo ninja on you

Now that the alleged leaker & their post have been ninja'ed, I believe in it a little more now.

o27g4dc.png
 
Not really too keen on the AR/camera stuff for Switch 2, given that the system is likely to follow the Switch with having a docked and portable setting.
 
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I'll be honest, as someone who has been lurking for a while without an account, I'm not sure if I get the recent hype that's happened over the last few days. It seems that someone mentioned that they were an insider, but didn't really give any new details, and then a lot of hype spawned from that? Even more than when whatever Nintendo showed at Gamescom was called "impressive". Could someone explain why the recent stuff is a big deal to a newcomer?
either you believe it or you don't. the gamescom stuff comes from people with some amount credibility, but it's still nothing solid. everything after that is just random people claiming they know shit
 
Now that the alleged leaker & their post have been ninja'ed, I believe in it a little more now.

o27g4dc.png
The whole current dumb saga started after they voluntarily quit their Era account in a fit of pique. They probably did the same to their Reddit account in another fit of pique. They weren't ninja'd.
 
The recent leaks barely even qualify as leaks. I don't understand why they've got everyone in a huff.

New game card was expected, BC was expected, FF7R, a PS4 game looking closer to PS5 level was expected (by many of us). Devkits have been out for a while, we know this.

Nothing here is interesting or new. And the source probably isn't even legit.
Kate McKinnon up in this thread like:
kate-mc-kinnon-kate.gif
 
The whole current dumb saga started after they voluntarily quit their Era account in a fit of pique. They probably did the same to their Reddit account in another fit of pique. They weren't ninja'd.
100% this. Reddit shows a different message when an account is suspended.

Also if the post was removed at the request of a third party it would've said something about a copyright infringement/DMCA, it just says [Removed].
 
Honestly, I don’t buy the whole camera thing. I could maybe get behind the idea of an AR camera, but the question then becomes how is it utilized, and could it be utilized in both docked, and handheld configurations? Something just seems off given it’s meant to be a hybrid system.

That makes me wonder if Nintendo will be prioritizing handheld gaming this time around as the forefront of the device while docked is mainly a secondary method of gaming. Honestly, that would make more sense given Nintendo's own history in the handheld gaming realm.
I am skeptical of a camera too, partially for parity reasons but also cause I assumed Nintendo would want to get the system to a reasonable price point, and there were rumors of up to 512 GB of internal storage and an 8 inch 1080p screen. Though I honestly don't know how much additional cost camera(s) add.

I personally think Nintendo still has a very good living room presence. They've cultivated an image of 'Mario Kart in the living room with family', 'friends huddled around the TV for Smash Bros', and 'various cute party and fitness games in front of the TV'. I think they still heavily value this perception even if they have seen more historical success with their handhelds.

If there are camera(s) on the tablet, it may very well be like the touchscreen - an additional input for developers to use as much as they want, but will most likely be an afterthought most of the time. We've seen parity breaks already - some games are docked/tabletop exclusive, some are handheld exclusive - and I expect any possible AR games to be tabletop/handheld exclusive.
 
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I hope something crazy doesn't happen again that makes this thread zoom by half a dozen pages. I wanna finish watching One Piece Live Action tonight and I'm worried I'll be way behind again. 😅
 
100% this. Reddit shows a different message when an account is suspended.

Also if the post was removed at the request of a third party it would've said something about a copyright infringement/DMCA, it just says [Removed].
For me it says "This account has been suspended." But I don't know anything about how reddit works. 🤷
 
either you believe it or you don't. the gamescom stuff comes from people with some amount credibility, but it's still nothing solid. everything after that is just random people claiming they know shit
I think I'm just out of the loop. What's this about something on Reddit?
 
Quoted by: LiC
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That bad yet still ran incredibly looking games like God of War, Uncharted, The Order, Last of Us, Ratchet, Spiderman etc.

I know there are other components involved of course, but Switch 2 should do well.
The A78s on the Switch 2 crush it so hard it's not even funny, though I must say the gap against the Zen 2s is indeed very huge. 62% in single core is massive, the true elephant in the room besides memory bandwidth.
 
For me it says "This account has been suspended." But I don't know anything about how reddit works. 🤷
If you voluntarily deactivate your account it will say "This user has deleted their account.", if your account has been (permanently) removed due to TOS violations or legal action it will just say "This account has been suspended.", if you try to search for somebody placed under a shadow ban you will get the message "Sorry, nobody on Reddit goes by that name. The person may have been banned or the username is incorrect."

If a post has been removed for sub rule-breaking or TOS it will simply say '[Removed]' or 'Sorry, this post was removed by Reddit's Community team.', if a post has been compelled to be taken down due to legal action it will say 'Removed by Reddit in response to a copyright notice.', it's possible for a post to be taken down with the [Removed] indicator ahead of a legal notice being filed if Reddit admins are aware what they're looking at could incur one

Their account could be suspended for many reasons from previous content guideline policy violations or offences on other accounts to ban evasion and spamming, but the fact they posted a very specific leak then were shadow-banned shortly after and later suspended probably means there was a bit of fire to that smoke, or enough concern for an admin to take note and act on it

edit: the post is still live (), the user has been shadow-banned, which probably means it's because of suspicious account activity and content guideline violations rather than a reaction to a legitimate leak or a potential legal notice
 
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I'm still not understanding what they're claiming here which is anything different from current info/expectations. If they're right that doesn't mean they had inside info, it means everything they shared was safe and uncontroversial.
That's my point. I could've made the same post on Reddit cause I've been browsing this thread for years. It'd be funny if I ended up being shadowbanned or in the grasp of ninjas cause I claimed to have specific leaked details, when I didn't know anything.
 
Reveddit (and Pushshift, I assume) says that the post was removed for being spam. Though idk how accurate that is since the third party API update messed some things up. I think that Reddit's filters sometimes throw a hissy fit when a new alternate account suddenly gets a lot of engagement, so maybe that's what happened?
 
That's my point. I could've made the same post on Reddit cause I've been browsing this thread for years. It'd be funny if I ended up being shadowbanned or in the grasp of ninjas cause I claimed to have specific leaked details, when I didn't know anything.
Ahhhh didn't catch on to that. Yeah that would be kinda funny, looks like that's not why they were banned though.
 
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A binned Xbox One S APU was briefly available, with the GPU disabled. And of course, folks have installed Linux on Switches. So while both machines are overclocked, we can directly compare them

Switch vs Xbox One S: The Switch outperforms in single threading so handily, that it is likely that for most tasks, even at base clocks, it outperforms last gen. And as for multithreading, while the 8 cores of the Jaguar get ahead, they don't double the performance. Last gen games were dominated by single threaded code, this is an ideal scenario from a game's perspective.

Similarly, the PS5 APU is available to purchase with the GPU disabled, and while we don't have Switch NG, we do have Orin NX, which is a similar configuration of similar cores. Here are the two, back to back, at clock speeds that looks like the real world.

Orin vs PS5: The single threaded score has widened, exactly as you'd expect. But so has the multicore. Now, you might be right. Practically speaking, this extra horsepower might rarely be a barrier to ports. But there isn't a question that the gap is wider than last gen on both fronts.
That reminds me of an old question of mine about how Nintendo could leverage DynamIQ in their favor.

Having all 8 cores running at 2.5~3GHz would consume the power budget of the device with just the CPU. But they don't have to use the same clocks across the board anymore.

Since it's quite hard to distribute CPU load evenly, having alternative CPU profiles boosting the cores with heavier load at the expense of the ones with lighter load makes sense. At least superficially.

And if different clocks creates too much extra work to be worth it, the alternative profiles can always turn off some cores instead and boost the remaing ones with that extra power budget.

If they turn off 4 cores, for example, I think there's a good chance they could get the 3 cores for games to be as close to the PS5's in single core performance as the A57 were to the PS4's Jaguars, going by these numbers*.

Bonus: In BC mode, they could turn off some SMs, keep the cores running the game at 1GHz and boost the cores responsible for the translation layer as much as possible.
Switch score @1GHz = 144 (283×1÷1,96)
Jaguar score @1.6GHz = 169 (248×1,6÷2,34)
Thus, Switch has ~85% single score performance of the PS4.
PS5 @3.5GHz score should be 1364 (1.403×3,5÷3,6).
The A78 would need to run at 3.09GHz to match that score (1.364÷(873÷1,98)).
85% of that would be 2.63GHz.
 
Please read this staff post before posting.

Furthermore, according to this follow-up post, all off-topic chat will be moderated.
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