StarTopic Future Nintendo Hardware & Technology Speculation & Discussion |ST| (Read the staff posts before commenting!)

[Foltzie]

I was thinking Macronix and Nintendo could do something similar to SD Express 8.0 (Figure 4, p. 6), where there's an additional row (row 3) for PCIe Gen 4.

Assuming no issues with a third row sitting above the voltage, ground, etc pins, then Nintendo could get 11 more pin in a third row.

 

[Estew]

Finally finish.

So, what do you think?

I don't love the idea of NINF-CARDs, but other than that honestly pretty cool. Really love the Joy-Con idea.

 

[RennanNT]

Your rationale holds up, I'm just not sure how they do it. Presumably replacing the NAND used inside the existing Game Cards doesn't require waiting for the new console. So if they're waiting for the new console, that implies a change to the existing physical bus, for speed. Usually the solution there is a second set of data pins, but the Game Card already has second row.

Even in the case they need more pins and don't have enough space, they can still make it wider and make a little dent to make sure you can't fit OG cards in the wrong place. Kinda like Micro USB 3.0:

And how the port looks like:

Wider, BC and you can't plug the micro USB 2.0 wrong.

 

[Giancarlo]

Finally finish.

So, what do you think?

is a good concept for Nintendo next hardware, the only downsize i see is Nintendo doing this proproietary discs, that remind me UMD PS Vita

 

[Foltzie]

Even in the case they need more pins and don't have enough space, they can still make it wider and make a little dent to make sure you can't fit OG cards in the wrong place. Kinda like Micro USB 3.0:

And how the port looks like:

Wider, BC and you can't plug the micro USB 2.0 wrong.

MicroUSB3 Kill it with FIRE!

 

[Dekuman]

It was already posted above.

I dunno why people are posting about this obvious fake in hide tags.

This is very bad in general (aesthetically, for sure, but especially in terms of it being an obvious hodgepodge of wishlist items expressed in the most inept way), but my favorite details are the search box, and the way they got what should have been "Staff Roll (Super Mario 64)" backwards.

Edit: Backup non-direct link

The original leak was in hide tags so I just responded to that and added thr hide tags when the screenshot showed up this AM in an obviously joke sub about it. I even said as much. No need signal boosting obvious disinformation which is why I suspect the original was In hide as well as that post got nuked by the mods on reddit

 

[Deleted member 887]

Are the touch-screen functions though tied to the individual profiles, or is it more to do with how the game is designed on the hardware itself?

if the idea is to tell a game it’s in docked mode in order to get 1080p resolution, there is no way to do that while also telling the game it’s not in docked mode for the purposes of controls.

Great example would be Mario Galaxy in 3D All Stars. Curser expects the Joy Cons pointed at the screen to collect star bits, but uses the touchscreen in handheld mode. The curser would be going out of it’s mind in handheld.

Or Super Mario Party that changes what mini games are available if it’s docked vs handheld. Touchscreen games would never be available.

 

[Giancarlo]

It was already posted above.

I dunno why people are posting about this obvious fake in hide tags.

This is very bad in general (aesthetically, for sure, but especially in terms of it being an obvious hodgepodge of wishlist items expressed in the most inept way), but my favorite details are the search box, and the way they got what should have been "Staff Roll (Super Mario 64)" backwards.

Edit: Backup non-direct link

why this fake Switch sucessor UI, make me think of Super Smash Bros Ultimate menu design? oh right is the same design phisophy in that game

 

[ILikeFeet]

I was thinking Macronix and Nintendo could do something similar to SD Express 8.0 (Figure 4, p. 6), where there's an additional row (row 3) for PCIe Gen 4.

The chip design would have to be a bit different then as some game cards have the pins on the chips. Maybe an elongated design for two rows of pins?

 

[Deleted member 887]

Couldn't there just be a faster way to load data and the card just supports several speeds? Maybe dedicated hardware that allows this to some extent?

The amount of data you can move is the literal amount of electricity you can run. The route taken in most storage cards is to add pins which are effectively just additional data lanes, and slower cards just use the existing lanes.

I’m not sure of the feasibility of running the existing lanes hotter. I think the danger would be that there would need to be a way to negotiate that, but Game Cards weren’t built to do that. Running the card hotter by default would likely fry old game cards plugged in.

 

[LiC]

if the idea is to tell a game it’s in docked mode in order to get 1080p resolution, there is no way to do that while also telling the game it’s not in docked mode for the purposes of controls.

Great example would be Mario Galaxy in 3D All Stars. Curser expects the Joy Cons pointed at the screen to collect star bits, but uses the touchscreen in handheld mode. The curser would be going out of it’s mind in handheld.

Or Super Mario Party that changes what mini games are available if it’s docked vs handheld. Touchscreen games would never be available.

This wasn't specifically your point but... If Nintendo is interested in BC enhancements, I can think of more elegant approaches, but I'm never particularly convinced by the technical arguments against forcing docked mode. The vast majority of games could probably be made to work perfectly fine if the OS just lies to the game about the source of the controller input. Some specialized cases would depend on the game's actual logic (for the Mario Galaxy example, we don't know for sure whether the game is logically ignoring touch screen input in docked mode, or if it's simply not receiving it, since the Switch turns the touch screen off while docked), and games that have gameplay differences like Super Mario Party could just be opted out altogether (it's Super Mario Party; no one will care). Nintendo is no stranger to these kinds of BC quirks, either.

One could also imagine a more elegant strategy to just encourage minor patches -- not all next-gen upgrades, but simpler resolution boost-type changes -- and maybe promoting them with an eShop "release" of sorts that gets eyeballs on it and justifies the labor required for third parties to widely adopt it. Boosting a game from "just" an already-released BC game to something that's been refreshed for new hardware, without the expense of a next-gen-worthy upgrade, could be a good middle ground.

 

[ILikeFeet]

new ray tracing benchmark for PC and Phones is out by UL Benchmark (Speed Way, Port Royal, Time Spy, Firestrike)

UL Solutions Launches 3DMark Solar Bay, New Cross-Platform Ray Tracing Benchmark

Find out more at benchmarks.ul.com

benchmarks.ul.com

We ran a quick test with GeForce RTX 4090 and Samsung S23 Ultra, and assuming that ‘graphics’ and ‘overall’ scores are comparable, then RTX 4090 is 24.5x times faster

Cross-platform 3DMark Solar Bay ray tracing benchmark released, GeForce RTX 4090 is 24.5x faster than S23 Ultra - VideoCardz.com

New Ray Tracing test from 3DMark UL Solution has released a new graphics benchmark for that will work across many platforms. Solar Bay does not aim to replace existing benchmarks like Port Royal or the recently introduced Speed Way. Those benchmarks are designed for the PC platform and high-end...

videocardz.com

 

[TomNookYankees]

Finally finish.

So, what do you think?

Cool concept, I like the idea of the joycons being able to connect on both sides, only major problem is that having a dpad on one means that joycon can't be used as a single controller.

 

[YolkFolk]

Finally finish.

So, what do you think?

 

[D36]

And now that song is stuck in my head

Do you mean...... THIS??????

 

[FeiFongWong]

Nintendo Moebius, a console by Tetsuya Takahashi Brilliant, you are hired!

 

[Deleted member 887]

This wasn't specifically your point but... If Nintendo is interested in BC enhancements, I can think of more elegant approaches, but I'm never particularly convinced by the technical arguments against forcing docked mode.

It’s clear it would work, with some percentage of games breaking. I just think Nintendo would not take that percentage for a cleaner high-res picture on the screen. This is the Nintendo that defaults to stretching the SNES image in NSO.

As an engineer I would prefer the simpler BC that works more of the time, especially when I consider the sheer number of 3rd party games out there

 

[ILikeFeet]

new ray tracing benchmark for PC and Phones is out by UL Benchmark (Speed Way, Port Royal, Time Spy, Firestrike)

UL Solutions Launches 3DMark Solar Bay, New Cross-Platform Ray Tracing Benchmark

Find out more at benchmarks.ul.com

benchmarks.ul.com

Cross-platform 3DMark Solar Bay ray tracing benchmark released, GeForce RTX 4090 is 24.5x faster than S23 Ultra - VideoCardz.com

New Ray Tracing test from 3DMark UL Solution has released a new graphics benchmark for that will work across many platforms. Solar Bay does not aim to replace existing benchmarks like Port Royal or the recently introduced Speed Way. Those benchmarks are designed for the PC platform and high-end...

videocardz.com

some (PC) scores that I've searched

6500XT avg - 20339
680M avg - 10186

1060 avg - 11351
2060S avg - 38559
3050 avg - 31412

Galaxy S23 Ultra (SD 8Gen2) from Videocardz - 5539

 

[Alovon11]

And it is not the bottleneck for DLSS for Drake

Yeah, for those not on the discord server adjacent to this. we investigated and found that despite my worries. DLSS/FSR2/XeSS actually side-step ROP/Pixel fill Rate. So Drake can upscale to 4K fine beyond GPU Cost.

 

[D36]

Functionally we know that Team 1 and Team 2 were wholly focused on Xeno3/FC, and TotK respectively. And we know from Takahashi, Nintendo hadn't been approving their pitches outside of Xenoblade.

If the action game does exist, which was seemingly attached to Team 2, then I would guess that it's something that was shelved for a while, or held in pre-production, until they completed their work on Zelda, and/or was something devs shifted over to slowly during TotK's development. COVID would have been a big monkey wrench for Xeno3 and Zelda both.

Team 1 is definitely on Xeno-Next, presumably with Koh Kojima having already been in planning while FC was being worked on. Team 2 theoretically has a window to work on something as the next Zelda will take a while to get out of the pre-production phase. So maybe you get that action game in the next couple years, before they are pulled into Zelda dev again? The fact that they've continued to keep that separate hiring page up probably indicates something, so maybe it's still happening. I'm just doubtful it would be ready for Switch 2 launch window.

I don't think that the team working on the action game is the one that worked on Zelda. There were two recruitment pages by Monolith Soft in regards to the topic at hand.

1. The one recruiting for an action game that was outside of the studio's brand image from 2017 that's still up today.

急募アクションゲーム開発経験者スタッフ積極採用中！｜採用情報｜株式会社モノリスソフト

モノリスソフトのブランドイメージとは異なる意欲的なプロジェクト。アクションゲーム開発経験者を募集しております。

www.monolithsoft.co.jp

2. The one recruiting for a Zelda (three months before TotK was revealed), which is also still up.

「ゼルダの伝説」シリーズ開発スタッフ大募集！ | RECRUIT | モノリスソフト

現在モノリスソフトが募集中の採用情報をご案内します。

www.monolithsoft.co.jp

The former may very well have been shelved, but I doubt these two projects could have overlapped, at least not to any significant degree.

 

[TLZ]

Otherwise, Nintendo would need to release two SKUs for the same game; the partners and retailers certainly would balk at that, and some consumers probably would be confused by two packages of the same game too.

But why? This has always been the case. Same game for different consoles is very normal.

 

[D36]

I still want capacitive pressure sensitive shoulder buttons. (Rather than analogue triggers or scroll wheels.)

Shhhhhhh

Don't let @Bonejack hear you........

 

[Giancarlo]

I don't think that the team working on the action game is the one that worked on Zelda. There were two recruitment pages by Monolith Soft in regards to the topic at hand.

1. The one recruiting for an action game that was outside of the studio's brand image from 2017 that's still up today.

急募アクションゲーム開発経験者スタッフ積極採用中！｜採用情報｜株式会社モノリスソフト

モノリスソフトのブランドイメージとは異なる意欲的なプロジェクト。アクションゲーム開発経験者を募集しております。

www.monolithsoft.co.jp

2. The one recruiting for a Zelda (three months before TotK was revealed), which is also still up.

「ゼルダの伝説」シリーズ開発スタッフ大募集！ | RECRUIT | モノリスソフト

現在モノリスソフトが募集中の採用情報をご案内します。

www.monolithsoft.co.jp

The former may very well have been shelved, but I doubt these two projects could have overlapped, at least not to any significant degree.

i have a feeling this action RPG Monolith Soft is suposedly working since 2017, will be Xenoblade Chronicles 4 or a Xenoblade Chronicles X sequel, i dont see Nintendo aproving Monolith Soft to do a new IP, but Xenoblade Chronicles 4 or a Xenoblade Chronicles X sequel would be more intereting in Nintendo eyes

 

[TLZ]

Finally finish.

So, what do you think?

Why do the joycons have babies?

 

[Pokemaniac]

Your rationale holds up, I'm just not sure how they do it. Presumably replacing the NAND used inside the existing Game Cards doesn't require waiting for the new console. So if they're waiting for the new console, that implies a change to the existing physical bus, for speed. Usually the solution there is a second set of data pins, but the Game Card already has second row.

You're forgetting the cart controller. Even assuming no signal integrity issues from driving the current slot harder than it was designed for, you've got an ASIC sitting between the cart and the rest of the system that has updatable firmware, but specs that are set in stone. It seems both plausible and likely that that chip isn't rated to run too much faster than what it's already doing. Presumably the new cart chips and the next gen controller needed to really take advantage of them are being developed together and there's not a lot of point in deploying one without the other.

It’s clear it would work, with some percentage of games breaking. I just think Nintendo would not take that percentage for a cleaner high-res picture on the screen. This is the Nintendo that defaults to stretching the SNES image in NSO.

As an engineer I would prefer the simpler BC that works more of the time, especially when I consider the sheer number of 3rd party games out there

Unless you want to go down the "developer intent" rabbit hole, from which there is no return, 4:3 is the correct default aspect ratio to display SNES games at. It's how the signal would be interpreted by the displays the system was built to work with.

 

[eye0h]

i have a feeling this action RPG Monolith Soft is suposedly working since 2017, will be Xenoblade Chronicles 4 or a Xenoblade Chronicles X sequel, i dont see Nintendo aproving Monolith Soft to do a new IP, but Xenoblade Chronicles 4 or a Xenoblade Chronicles X sequel would be more intereting in Nintendo eyes

Maybe it'll be Xeno-Something but they don't even acknowledge X was real and I think it's far too soon for xc4

 

[Instro]

I don't think that the team working on the action game is the one that worked on Zelda. There were two recruitment pages by Monolith Soft in regards to the topic at hand.

1. The one recruiting for an action game that was outside of the studio's brand image from 2017 that's still up today.

急募アクションゲーム開発経験者スタッフ積極採用中！｜採用情報｜株式会社モノリスソフト

モノリスソフトのブランドイメージとは異なる意欲的なプロジェクト。アクションゲーム開発経験者を募集しております。

www.monolithsoft.co.jp

2. The one recruiting for a Zelda (three months before TotK was revealed), which is also still up.

「ゼルダの伝説」シリーズ開発スタッフ大募集！ | RECRUIT | モノリスソフト

現在モノリスソフトが募集中の採用情報をご案内します。

www.monolithsoft.co.jp

The former may very well have been shelved, but I doubt these two projects could have overlapped, at least not to any significant degree.

Both pages were recruiting for the same job postings iirc, so it should both be for team 2.

 

[ILikeFeet]

I await the day Zelda has lighting like this

 

[Kazuyamishima]

I await the day Zelda has lighting like this

I await the day when RTX is the standard. I wish Nvidia did a better job of implementing it from the start

 

[D36]

i have a feeling this action RPG Monolith Soft is suposedly working since 2017, will be Xenoblade Chronicles 4 or a Xenoblade Chronicles X sequel, i dont see Nintendo aproving Monolith Soft to do a new IP, but Xenoblade Chronicles 4 or a Xenoblade Chronicles X sequel would be more intereting in Nintendo eyes

That can't be the case. The action game is supposed to be something outside of MS's usual wheelhouse, including and especially Xenoblade. I also don't see why Nintendo wouldn't greenlight a new IP from them, especially at this point.

 

[ILikeFeet]

I await the day when RTX is the standard. I wish Nvidia did a better job of implementing it from the start

kinda hard to get better than they are now. there are some theories, but we have to see how they pan out first. wouldn't look good for AMD if Nvidia was even further ahead though

but we are getting closer. two major RT only games were announced this year and I bet there will be more next year

 

[Giancarlo]

That can't be the case. The action game is supposed to be something outside of MS's usual wheelhouse, including and especially Xenoblade. I also don't see why Nintendo wouldn't greenlight a new IP from them, especially at this point.

the reason is very simple, do i spent $100 milions on Xenoblade Chronicles 4/X sequel, everyone get happy, or do i risk spending this same amount on a new IP, that is too risk and is not garantee to be a sucess/have the same pedigree as a Xenoblade Chronicles game, is obvious Nintendo is gonna spent on a franchise that bring goodwill to them not risk on the unknown.

 

[Terrell]

I was thinking Macronix and Nintendo could do something similar to SD Express 8.0 (Figure 4, p. 6), where there's an additional row (row 3) for PCIe Gen 4.

Fun fact I learned: the UFS Card standard was designed to work with ANY kind of chip inside it to communicate data through the standard and isn’t even limited to the current form factor of the currently available NAND storage that was available for sale, so this published standard could include use with this custom ASIC package being made by Macronix. So with eUFS being used internally, it could make sense to use the UFS Card pin out and M-PHY physical layer on a PCIe bus that standard is built on to unify I/O to a single method.

 

[D36]

the reason is very simple, do i spent $100 milions on Xenoblade Chronicles 4/X sequel, everyone get happy, or do i risk spending this same amount on a new IP, that is too risk and is not garantee to be a sucess/have the same pedigree as a Xenoblade Chronicles game, is obvious Nintendo is gonna spent on a franchise that bring goodwill to them not risk on the unknown.

Can't you make the same case for a lot of Nintendo's more recent IPs? Granted, most of them aren't from subsidiaries, but I doubt the risk factor is as great as you're making it out to be. This is even more apparent, when MS's currently ongoing original IP has consistently sold over 1 million units since 2017; if we're talking about goodwill, then surely this new IP could do those numbers based on Monolith's reputation and whatever appeal it'll have, right?

 

[Starbreaker]

I'd rather see nee IP from Nintendo in general.

 

[fwd-bwd]

But why? This has always been the case. Same game for different consoles is very normal.

Good question. That is normal when there’s a clear generational break between consoles (e.g., SF6 for PS4 and PS5). IMHO that wouldn’t be Nintendo’s software strategy though. The company’s software revenues are anchored by their evergreen titles—such as MK8D, BotW, ACNH, SSBU, RFA, and more—that continue to sell without a price drop despite being long in the tooth. The clean break model seems antithesis of that longevity play; I think it’s unlikely that Nintendo would release a repackaged ACNH or MK8D for Switch 2 (which likely would devalue the Switch 1 SKUs).

The hardware strategy of multiple-units-per-household would also be better supported by a common software library. The company probably doesn’t want a parent to not purchase a SMB Wonder game card for Switch 2 because they are uncertain whether it can be played on their kid’s Switch Lite. For the non-enthusiast market, simplicity is a virtue.

Edit: Forgot to add that the game card is costlier to produce than a disc. For a publisher, carrying two SKUs of the same Switch game would require a higher financial commitment (and thus inventory risk) than having two PS discs.

 

[Dekuman]

So bets on when we first hear something official about this device?

 

[Shoulder]

if the idea is to tell a game it’s in docked mode in order to get 1080p resolution, there is no way to do that while also telling the game it’s not in docked mode for the purposes of controls.

Great example would be Mario Galaxy in 3D All Stars. Curser expects the Joy Cons pointed at the screen to collect star bits, but uses the touchscreen in handheld mode. The curser would be going out of it’s mind in handheld.

Or Super Mario Party that changes what mini games are available if it’s docked vs handheld. Touchscreen games would never be available.

That sounds fair. As a follow up though, can’t you do the same while in tabletop mode, which is still the handheld profile?

 

[LinkURL]

i have a feeling this action RPG Monolith Soft is suposedly working since 2017, will be Xenoblade Chronicles 4 or a Xenoblade Chronicles X sequel, i dont see Nintendo aproving Monolith Soft to do a new IP, but Xenoblade Chronicles 4 or a Xenoblade Chronicles X sequel would be more intereting in Nintendo eyes

I think it's just the opposite, Monolith is an extremely talented and capable studio, it doesn't make sense to lock them up with a franchise that has clearly reached a sales ceiling.

 

[Deleted member 887]

I also don't see why Nintendo wouldn't greenlight a new IP from them, especially at this point.

the reason is very simple, do i spent $100 milions on Xenoblade Chronicles 4/X sequel, everyone get happy, or do i risk spending this same amount on a new IP,

Takahashi Tetsuya can make any game he wants to make. Period.

Takahashi founded Monolith to make the games he wanted to make. Bandai wanted to control what Monolith made, so he broke away from Bandai. Hatano Shinji told Takahashi he should keep making weird games, and arranged Nintendo to buy them in order to lock Takahashi’s output.

Nintendo wants to keep Takahashi, Takahashi will leave, possibly taking Monolith with him, or at least the core talent, the moment he feels like he can’t make the game he wants. And as long as they keep selling a million units and being the robust support studio it is, they’ll green light whatever he wants.

 

[ILikeFeet]

Good question. That is normal when there’s a clear generational break between consoles (e.g., SF6 for PS4 and PS5). IMHO that wouldn’t be Nintendo’s software strategy though. The company’s software revenues are anchored by their evergreen titles—such as MK8D, BotW, ACNH, SSBU, RFA, and more—that continue to sell without a price drop despite being long in the tooth. The clean break model seems antithesis of that longevity play; I think it’s unlikely that Nintendo would release a repackaged ACNH or MK8D for Switch 2 (which likely would devalue the Switch 1 SKUs).

The hardware strategy of multiple-units-per-household would also be better supported by a common software library. The company probably doesn’t want a parent to not purchase a SMB Wonder game card for Switch 2 because they are uncertain whether it can be played on their kid’s Switch Lite. For the non-enthusiast market, simplicity is a virtue.

a better solution, I think is to just repackage the game onto a Drake card. as long as the marketing is clear, you won't have people buying the game again (not that I think there will be many)

 

[MP!]

I really hope the next monolithsoft hame is the action game or something else

IP fatigue is real

Unless it was xcx2 then I’d be so down

I think it’s too soon for x4 though give it some time to breathe

 

[Concernt]

a better solution, I think is to just repackage the game onto a Drake card. as long as the marketing is clear, you won't have people buying the game again (not that I think there will be many)

That is better in... Exactly zero ways.

 

[Concernt]

So bets on when we first hear something official about this device?

By end of (Astronomical, Northern Hemisphere) Summer (September 22nd)?

 

[iag]

If NG is capable of ray tracing, do we expect a new game (or IP) focused only on solving puzzles with shadow/lighting? Or it could be an ability for the next Zelda game.

 

[Deleted member 887]

That sounds fair. As a follow up though, can’t you do the same while in tabletop mode, which is still the handheld profile?

My understanding is that games can query if they are docked or not, and receive an event if the game docs or undocked, and they can query about the controllers - if they're attached to the unit, if they're in sideways mode, or if it's a pro controller.

You can obviously lie about any of those things to the game. The issue of course is that games can individually choose how to respond to any of those pieces of information. In theory, games could do some wild tuning - for example they could, conceivably alter hit boxes and speeds on enemies depending on if the user had Joy-Cons enabled (Prime Trilogy would apparently do this in response to motion controls). But in practice, nothing like that seems common. But no way Nintendo can test every game. So it comes down to how much breakage Nintendo is willing to accept, and how much customization they're willing to offer.

I think the only thing likely to reliably break is touchscreen versus motion controls, and that some Visual Novels apparently alter text size for readability based on TV versus handheld. I think Nintendo would opt to make the default "work maximally reliably, even if visually less than ideal". My hope is that Nintendo would offer options for something like "run in docked mode" or "pixel perfect mode and stretch mode". But again, I think Nintendo would prefer to let devs patch games to take care of extra power, rather than try to create a bunch of user driven options.

 

[MrBones]

The distance between Xenoblade Chronicles 2 and 3 was 5 years and you're stating that a sequel running on 8th gen hardware is going to be a launch title. Ngl, I'm going to have to pull a "Get Real" on this one chief.

Monolith Soft almost certainly has something within the launch year of the Switch 2 (presuming that the Switch 2 is H2 2024 release), but I have heavy doubts it's going to be a Xenoblade 4. Is XC4 in pre-production/Alpha stages? Almost certainly, but saying it'll be a launch title is a lol and a half.

X->2 was only 2.5 years

 

[Dmax3901]

I'd rather see nee IP from Nintendo in general.

Knee IP? like a sequel to ARMS?

 

[eye0h]

Knee IP? like a sequel to ARMS?

KNEES

 

[lemonfresh]

This Is now a mockup thread