StarTopic Future Nintendo Hardware & Technology Speculation & Discussion |ST| (Read the staff posts before commenting!)

[Νεφέλωμα]

M series MacBooks are getting thinner

False. The last time they redesigned it, Apple actually made them bulkier.

They (Nintendo) are way smarter than that.

Are they so smart as to be immune to the heating of comupter components? Or to ignore the trend of increasing the size of screens, that has been dominating the whole mobile space since the last decade?

Steam Deck didn’t penetrate mainstream consciousness. It was a bomb

What other PC gaming component has sold 2 million copies? I can only think of GPUs. Steam Deck has probably outsold many PC gaming laptops, which I repeat, are its main competitor today in mobile PC gaming until more companies start to do handheld PCs

 

[Deleted member 887]

Thanks for the context. I had assumed 8 inch 1080 screens would be common for GPS and small tablets, i guess not!

I had too, till I started digging! Tablets at that size are basically all 720p, except for the iPad Mini which is an absurd 1488 x 2266. You can check out Innolux's product list here.

The only things that match the rumored NG screen are the sixth entry here and the third one here. These are both 15.6 inch 4k laptop panels. LCD screens are made in big sheets of mother glass that are then cut down to size, so whatever big sheet is being made for these screens could instead be cut into smaller 7.8in 1080p screens.

But check out the tablet and phone listings - they have a column for the built in touch tech. Those laptop screens aren't built for touch. The nicer of Innolux's two touch screen technologies actually puts the touch in the LCD sandwich (TID - touch in display) and requires you alter how the screen is made. Their cheaper tech lets you just slap a touch screen on top (TOD - touch on display), but Innolux would still need to make the touch panels the appropriate size.

If this is the screen we're getting, ideally we'd get TID, which is a step up from the "optically bonded" screen that the Steam Deck uses, and was a tech designed for Apple before they moved to OLED. The Switch uses an "air gap" bonded touch screen - that means there is a tiny film of air between the touch screen and the LCD, which is otherwise bonded at the edges.

The Steam Deck uses an "optically bonded" screen, meaning layers have clear adhesive edge to edge. The adhesive is designed to have similar optical properties to the touchscreen, so light comes through sharper and brighter.

TID appears to be an Innolux tech to build touch into the underlying thin-film-transistors that the LCD uses for display. That means there is no separate touch panel, period.

isn't that only at low clocks? (Which is what Nintendo will use).

It's perf per watt across multiple clocks. Peak performance may/may not be higher, it's just the wattage it takes to get there that is clearly inferior

If it was worse period, it woudnt really have a reason to exist.

Well, ARM makes chip revisions annually, part of which is just to follow new node revisions so the constant cellphone arms* race can continue. They're bound to make a dud every now and then. In this case, the chip was supposed to be a pure 64-bit chip, but enough mobile manufacturers said they weren't ready to move, so ARM added 32-bit compat back into it at the last minute. It was also the first ARMv9 chip - if you wanted those ARMv9 features you had to move over. ARM designs these cores in tandem with the major SOC and phone companies. So one group is pushing for v9 features, and are building their OS around that, while another group is saying they need another year of 32 bit support, and you wind up with a core that kinda sucks.

ARM claimed huge efficiency wins on the follow up, the A720, probably because they were finally able to kick the 32 bit support to the curb.

* heh

 

[Multiverse]

I'd argue against that with multiple points,
Bigger = bulkier and less portable
Bigger screen = less ppi
Bigger screen = bigger battery which makes it heavier and less portable

That is exactly my point. The bigger and better trend is also dying with phone manufacturers. I blame Samsung for starting it (the note line). Then Apple followed with the plus and pro series. They all hit a ceiling. Thank GOD.

 

[YolkFolk]

Prediction - The Joy Con 2 will be two parts of a controller that click together to form a single controller for TV play. They’ll be ergonomic with triggers and full size buttons.

Mock up

 

[Semi Lazy Gamer]

Even Arlo is team late 2024

 

[Cybergatuno]

If 8 inches is real, have we discussed why would Nintendo do it? Is it because users want a bigger screen? Bigger joycons and buttons? Redacted needs to be bigger because of cooling? Sorry if that was discussed, thread moved way fast this week.

My guess is they believe users prefer a bigger screen. The OLED model has comfortably outsold the base Switch since its introduction, whereas the Switch Lite has remained relatively niche. Of course there are many more differences between these models, but my guess is that Nintendo's done a lot of market research and found that having a bigger screen has been a major factor in people choosing the OLED over the regular Switch and the regular model over the Lite. Hence a bigger ~8" screen on the standard model this time around, and then presumably something around 6.2" on the Switch 2 Lite.

Product differentiation maybe. This screen will likely be a downgrade in quality from the Oled, so they make it bigger and higher res.

There's many possible reasons:

• Some breakthrough occurred which made 8 inch 1080p LCD screens absurdly cheap, which is why not just nintendo, but sony are also spending money on these 8 inch screens
• Switch NG's size had to increase significantly anyway due to the power consumption required for the desired performance, so may as well go for a bigger screen
• Switch NG's size had to increase due to inclusion of new hardware features such as camera, microphone, new kickstand, and/or additional joycon attachment points
• Nintendo is planning for this thing to have more media tablet functionality (streaming apps, social media apps, etc.) and figure that making the screen bigger like a traditional tablet would be preferable

There are good arguments there for a bigger screen. Tabletop and media consumption would certainly benefit.
Youtube, Hulu, etc would look way better and benefit from 4K on the TV.
Netflix, Disney+ etc could bring more revenue to Nintendo.

One of my guesses is that they really want to target 1080p in handlheld, so 4K docked isn't too far out in terms of performance requirements.
Too big of a resolution gap between modes and a simple GPU upclock could not be enough and require devs to target 2 very different machines at that point.

Personally, I'm all for a bigger screen/console, as long as it's not too heavy.
I always use a carrying case, so fitting my pocket is not a requirement.

 

[Multiverse]

False. The last time they redesigned it, Apple actually made them bulkier.

I didn‘t know they increased the size? Anyway, that was an exaggeration on my part (already edited). I knew those laptops stayed around the same size. My point was more of how the battery and power increased exponentially without them making it way bulkier esp compared to their intel counterparts.

 

[Angel Whispers]

Hmmm… 8-inch screen would be the same as an Amazon Fire HD8 tablet, which has roughly 1cm bezels around it. With controls added to it, it would feel like a slimmer Wii U GamePad. In a wallet case, the tablet would be similar to carrying an A5 journal, for an idea of how portable it is.

ayo that sounds like the infamous Wii U demo

What we had in the end was infinitely better, and I liked that demo at the time. But ultimately, I feel that had they gone with that demo’s direction, we would’ve had more of the same, but bigger and more of it, and that would’ve been disappointing. “Realistic” LOZ would look awful, indistinguishable from other games, and devoid of imagination, unless the equivalent of a live-action horror film is your thing. What would a realistic Goron, Rito, or Zora look like? Or Wizzrobes and Redeads? Rejecting photorealistic art direction is imperative, so much that it’s one of the staples of the series, and the LOZ team has no desire to imitate the real world - We went from cel-shading to Impressionism to a blend of gouache paintings and Studio Ghibli-inspired presentation. They might well stick with this direction, but change the appearance, use different colour shades and combinations from their palette, and create new areas, maps, etc..

 

[Cybergatuno]

I'd argue against that with multiple points,
Bigger = bulkier and less portable
Bigger screen = less ppi
Bigger screen = bigger battery which makes it heavier and less portable

That is exactly my point. The bigger and better trend is also dying with phone manufacturers. I blame Samsung for starting it (the note line). Then apple followed with the plus and pro series. They all hit a ceiling. Thank GOD.

Phones are not comparable. They're everyday companions and mostly used for calls, emails and a little browsing.
Bigger is cumbersome.
People that consume a lot of media on their phone tend to prefer bigger screens.

A dedicated gaming device has a very distinct use case.
You're not supposed to fit it in your pocket anymore but use carrying cases.

Anyway, if NX2 has indeed a 8'' screen and if the bezels are thin, the console itself won't be that much bigger.

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

I always use a carrying case, so fitting my pocket is not a requirement.

Yeah, the pocket ship sailed long ago, unless you have a Lite and kinda big pockets. So I don't think a slightly bigger unit than OLED would hurt portability much, though added weight hurting comfortability is still possible.

 

[ReddDreadtheLead]

If it’s custom, I expect maybe some VRR, people argue that Nintendo’s audience wouldn’t care for that but have people ever thought of Nintendo’s perspective and if wanted it to deliver a perceivably smoother experience? A LCD display lets them do that in this case, which the OLED wouldn’t.

Would be in a similar way to the Steam Deck and its variable screen that they control for.

 

[Mekanos]

An underrated consideration for a Switch 2 launch title as a casual multiplayer game is Switch Sports 2

Despite people's complaints the first one was a big success and I don't see Nintendo stopping

 

[radbirb]

 

[MrBones]

Hmmm… 8-inch screen would be the same as an Amazon Fire HD8 tablet, which has roughly 1cm bezels around it. With controls added to it, it would feel like a slimmer Wii U GamePad. In a wallet case, the tablet would be similar to carrying an A5 journal, for an idea of how portable it is.

What we had in the end was infinitely better, and I liked that demo at the time. But ultimately, I feels that had they gone with that demo’s direction, we would’ve had more of the same, but bigger and more of it, and that would’ve been disappointing. “Realistic” LOZ would look awful, indistinguishable from other games, and devoid of imagination, unless the equivalent of a live-action horror film is your thing. What would a realistic Goron, Rito, or Zora look like? Or Wizzrobes and Redeads? Rejecting photorealistic art direction is imperative, so much that it’s one of the staples of the series, and the LOZ team has no desire to imitate the real world - We went from cel-shading to Impressionism to a blend of gouache paintings and Studio Ghibli-inspired presentation. They might well stick with this direction, but change the appearance, use different colour shades and combinations from their palette, and create new areas, maps, etc..

That demo's artstyle isn't photorealism. I can easily imagine Gorons/Zoros and the like in the style (not that they need to be in every Zelda game)

 

[ILikeFeet]

Probably more akin to Tales of Arise, which would feel like the natural evolution of that Xeno anime aesthetic and rich world design, and shouldn't be a problem to run on the next generation hardware

Tales of Arise isn't that different from Xenoblade once you get past the overly filtered fake-ink look. there's not much there for Xenoblade to take than it's not already doing

That demo's artstyle isn't photorealism. I can easily imagine Gorons/Zoros and the like in the style (not that they need to be in every Zelda game)

the gorons in this style would have to be censored, lol. TP's Goron's had some strange rock nipples

 

[chocolate_supra]

unless the equivalent of a live-action horror film is your thing. What would a realistic Goron, Rito, or Zora look like?

Retro actually had concepts done for a realistic Zelda and yeah, the Goron and Zora looked more like something Guillermo DelToro woulda dreamed up

 

[Hermii]

If it’s custom, I expect maybe some VRR, people argue that Nintendo’s audience wouldn’t care for that but have people ever thought of Nintendo’s perspective and if wanted it to deliver a perceivably smoother experience? A LCD display lets them do that in this case, which the OLED wouldn’t.

Would be in a similar way to the Steam Deck and its variable screen that they control for.

Nintendos audience wouldn't care for that, in the same way your average Joe wouldn't care for 60fps.

They don't know and don't care what's going on behind the scenes, but they know Mario games looks and play very smooth.

 

[chocolate_supra]

* Hidden text: cannot be quoted. *

Good idea hiding that. That scoop woulda been splattered all over reddit and youtube by morning had you not

 

[PokéPersona]

Xenoblade Chronicles 4 will problaby look like Hi-fi Rush or the action RPG Monolith Soft is working since 2017, imagine a Legend of Zelda/Xenoblade Chronicles with this art style

I feel like FF7R and Hi-Fi Rush are two extremely opposite ends on this comparison line. It'll probably look like something in-between lol.

 

[Shoulder]

On the subject of new game card formats, I've done a little bit of digging and found what I believe to be the prime candidate for the tech behind the next gen game cards; single-gate vertical channel (SGVC) 3D NAND. In 2017 Macronix published a paper on the technology, including results on a test chip they had manufactured. I don't have access to the paper itself, but the abstract is pretty informative:



There are a few important things here. It's got very long data retention (40+ years), is described as "very suitable for read-intensive memory", and achieves high capacities at low cost. The sample chip they manufactured was 128Gb (16GB) on a 16-layer process, and they claim that 1Tb (128GB) chips would be possible on a 48-layer process at low cost. It could presumably scale even further in capacity with additional layers.

That seems like a technology pretty much perfectly designed for Nintendo. In fact this article about it stated it was "suitable for read-intensive applications such as game-grade memory". I don't know if this is a quote from Macronix or the author's addition, but it would be surprising if Macronix didn't see this as something they could provide to Nintendo.

In 2019, this article stated that Macronix planned to introduce SGVC after their ordinary (GAA-based) 3D NAND business is established. That's taken a bit longer than expected, but they started mass production of 48-layer GAA 3D NAND in 2021 and 96-layer in 2022. Which would put the introduction of SGVC 3D NAND at right around the right time to be used for Nintendo's new console.

Incidentally, it appears that Macronix have been using a mix of XtraROM and NAND in Switch game cards all along. Thanks to @LiC who passed the info along to me. Game cards up to 4GB seem to use XtraROM, while cards 8GB and up use NAND. No specifics on the NAND, but presumably it's tweaked in some way to provide better longevity in a write-once use-case. I don't know whether they're using any 3D NAND, but that's only been available from Macronix recently, so anything prior to last year would have to be planar NAND.

This also explains why development on XtraROM ceased after they hit 32nm in 2014, as they switched to a NAND variant. The 4GB capacity of the largest XtraROM parts is the same as the largest 3DS games (although they claimed 8GB, I don't think any games actually used 8GB cards), so it seems like 4GB is the limit of capacity on 32nm XtraROM.

No headphone jack

“Courage”

So I've learned that there are only two types of gamers.
1.Nintendo fans who adore cuteness, hate "edgy" (Kirby good, Kratos bad) and love low resolution gaming .
2. Gamers on PC/other consoles who own their platforms for "prestige", don't care about games but love sharp edges and pixel counting.


That's gaming covered it seems.

Based on those two choices, I fall primarily on the first one. #2 only pertains to me in that I appreciate sharp edges, and pixel counting where it counts.

It’s the pixel peeping wars all over again that we’re all the rage for Digital Photography; probably still happening, though I think for smartphone cameras these days.

 

[Dakhil]

ARM claimed huge efficiency wins on the follow up, the A720, probably because they were finally able to kick the 32 bit support to the curb.

Arm removed 32-bit support from the Cortex-A715. Although Arm has significantly improved performance/W with the Cortex-A715 compared to the Cortex-A710, the Cortex-A715 still can't quite match the Cortex-A78 in terms of performance/W at lower watts, based on Geekerwan's review.

 

[iag]

* Hidden text: cannot be quoted. *

 

[ReddDreadtheLead]

Phones are not comparable. They're everyday companions and mostly used for calls, emails and a little browsing.
Bigger is cumbersome.
People that consume a lot of media on their phone tend to prefer bigger screens.

A dedicated gaming device has a very distinct use case.
You're not supposed to fit it in your pocket anymore but use carrying cases.

Anyway, if NX2 has indeed a 8'' screen and if the bezels are thin, the console itself won't be that much bigger.

While they are no longer small, I do hope they introduce a small clam shell portable only device down the line.

 

[ReddDreadtheLead]

Nintendos audience wouldn't care for that, in the same way your average Joe wouldn't care for 60fps.

They don't know and don't care what's going on behind the scenes, but they know Mario games looks and play very smooth.

I feel like you misread the point of my post.

 

[Kazuyamishima]

Just an FYI about point #2: If the rumored 8” display is indeed 1080p, then the ppi will be higher than OLED. (210 vs 275)

Yes, of course but my point is bigger isn't always better. I wasn't saying in this case it's worse

 

[Hermii]

I feel like you misread the point of my post.

It was meant more as building on it.

 

[BloodMoon]

Retro actually had concepts done for a realistic Zelda and yeah, the Goron and Zora looked more like something Guillermo DelToro woulda dreamed up

A Del Toro stylised Zelda game? Now that’s a concept I can back

 

[Kise Ryota]

An underrated consideration for a Switch 2 launch title as a casual multiplayer game is Switch Sports 2

I really like the concept of these motion controlled games, but I gave up after the latest game. The controls are so bad that even my casual friends/family couldn't understand how to play (because the controllers wouldn't behave the way they were expecting).

My dream is Nintendo going for something like this; I'm more interested in this than in the SoC's performance.

 

[Smile]

I wonder when Stephan Totilo is going to publish his article on what he's heard.

 

[Dark Cloud]

I wonder when Stephan Totilo is going to publish his article on what he's heard.

I’m waiting too, especially if he has an update on Red Dead Redemption 2 coming to Switch 2.

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

If it’s custom, I expect maybe some VRR, people argue that Nintendo’s audience wouldn’t care for that but have people ever thought of Nintendo’s perspective and if wanted it to deliver a perceivably smoother experience? A LCD display lets them do that in this case, which the OLED wouldn’t.

At least for base Switch, Nintendo has gone for frame rate parity between modes. Since modes beyond the standard aren't... well, standard for TVs yet, it starts getting a bit awkward if you dock your game and the frame rate drops from 40 to 30.

 

[Concernt]

At least for base Switch, Nintendo has gone for frame rate parity between modes. Since modes beyond the standard aren't... well, standard for TVs yet, it starts getting a bit awkward if you dock your game and the frame rate drops from 40 to 30.

While broadly true, Super Mario Odyssey uses interlacing in handheld mode, and so produces an effective 30 frames per second, Vs 60FPS with no tricks in TV Mode, and Bowser's Fury targets 60FPS in TV mode and 30FPS in Handheld (and Tabletop) mode.

 

[Sin Drive]

but a 8 inch display for Switch sucessor will look confortable for players that play in handheld mode 90/100% or have big hand, that a consideration Nintendo need to consider, imagine you playing a console with a huge display, after a period of time, they will start feeling uncomfortable

But that already happens with the current Switch, for some individuals. Weight'll go up but it doesn't have to be distributed in a way that become more uncomfortable for the average individual. I also don't see how a bigger device would be worse for individuals with bigger hands but maybe that's a mistype.

 

[karmitt]

.

If it’s custom, I expect maybe some VRR, people argue that Nintendo’s audience wouldn’t care for that but have people ever thought of Nintendo’s perspective and if wanted it to deliver a perceivably smoother experience? A LCD display lets them do that in this case, which the OLED wouldn’t.

Would be in a similar way to the Steam Deck and its variable screen that they control for.

OLED doesn’t allow VRR? Or just that such a screen would be notably more expensive? Asking cause my TV is OLED and was 99% positive it had VRR

 

[Hermii]

At least for base Switch, Nintendo has gone for frame rate parity between modes. Since modes beyond the standard aren't... well, standard for TVs yet, it starts getting a bit awkward if you dock your game and the frame rate drops from 40 to 30.

handheld mode should be Nintendos main focus, because it's the common denominator. Ideally the only thing docked mode should do, is touch up resolution/ image quality for a larger higher res screen.

VRR would be a really good for handheld mode, because it would make framerate fluctuations less noticeable and give them the ability to target non standard framerates. If it doesn't work for docked mode, so be it that's beyond Nintendos control.

 

[Dakhil]

OLED doesn’t allow VRR? Or just that such a screen would be notably more expensive?

Mobile OLED displays don't support seamless VRR. Although mobile OLED displays do support VRR, mobile OLED displays only change refresh rates using pre-determined refresh rate values.

 

[Concernt]

.


OLED doesn’t allow VRR? Or just that such a screen would be notably more expensive? Asking cause my TV is OLED and was 99% positive it had VRR

Yes, OLED displays can absolutely support VRR. With that said!

I don't actually expect NG Switch to use it myself. HDMI 2.1 might be just a touch out of the ballpark for them. 2.0b features like ALLM and 12 bit HDR are definitely a possibility, though.

 

[karmitt]

Mobile OLED displays don't support seamless VRR. Although mobile OLED displays do support VRR, mobile OLED displays only change refresh rates using pre-determined refresh rate values.

Yes, OLED displays can absolutely support VRR. With that said!

I don't actually expect NG Switch to use it myself. HDMI 2.1 might be just a touch out of the ballpark for them. 2.0b features like ALLM and 12 bit HDR are definitely a possibility, though.

Is there any technical reason they wouldn’t support VRR if a TV supported it? Would it break docking/undocking in some way to have to switch between them?

 

[LuigiBlood]

Even Arlo is team late 2024

I now fully believe H1 2024.
I could just say H2 2024 is too late, but I have absolutely no arguments to back that up, so I'll just say it's because I want it to be H1 2024.

 

[Plum]

Even Arlo is team late 2024

Famiboards immediately declares that they are now on Team 2025.

 

[Deleted member 887]

I don't care about resolution/screen size as long as more games run at a constant 60fps or close

I would imagine it will be identical

 

[TLZ]

ayo that sounds like the infamous Wii U demo

Ohhhh looks fantastic. I'd love a Zelda game like this.

Also, thank god they got rid of those 3ds slider sticks for the retail Wii U gamepad.

 

[Skittzo]

I now fully believe H1 2024.
I could just say H2 2024 is too late, but I have absolutely no arguments to back that up, so I'll just say it's because I want it to be H1 2024.

2023 ain't over yet either.

 

[TLZ]

* Hidden text: cannot be quoted. *

 

[Concernt]

Is there any technical reason they wouldn’t support VRR if a TV supported it? Would it break docking/undocking in some way to have to switch between them?

It would make it more difficult, yes! Part of how the dock/undock process works is that the game momentarily runs in the first while it deals with setting up the second. So for a split second, a game will run in TV Mode, displaying on the system's internal display, before it settles in. Some games (like Scarlet and Violet) are very bad at hiding this. Some games (like Pikmin 3 Deluxe) are excellent at hiding it. Switching from a VRR display to a non-VRR display and back in either direction risks a sudden apparent framerate dip and/or momentary but severe tearing. I'm sure those are things they'd like to avoid, and other than resolution I imagine they want to keep as much parity between handheld and TV mode as possible. It is possible that they get both modes to support it, but I have my doubts. More screen engineering, more work for a feature games might not even use, and of course it means engineering a new Dock again, which given they just engineered a 4K dock with extra ventilation 2 years ago, I think, though I'm not certain, they want to avoid that.

 

[Deleted member 887]

Arm removed 32-bit support from the Cortex-A715. Although Arm has significantly improved performance/W with the Cortex-A715 compared to the Cortex-A710, the Cortex-A715 still can't quite match the Cortex-A78 in terms of performance/W at lower watts, based on Geekerwan's review.

Yes! I slipped up on my numbering there.

 

[Lugia667]

I wouldn't get your hopes up for that type of Zelda, they see SS and BOTW style as the compromise to fans.

 

[Concernt]

2023 ain't over yet either.

'23 will never end.
Time itself we twist and bend.
To make our theories fit the mould.
Reality itself must we fold.


When the hurly-burly's done,
When the battle's lost and won.

 

[Deleted member 887]

I would imagine it will be identical

Just to add - I prefer frame rate over resolution, everything else being equal. Would love more 60fps experiences. But the industry loves 30fps, because it triples the amount of performance available to rendering, despite only halving the frame rate. 60fps received a nice increase when the new consoles came along, but it wasn't because of a bump in power, it was because cross-gen meant that supporting the last gen consoles at 30fps gave plenty of room on the next gen consoles for a 60fps mode.

It's not a performance question, it's a general industry target question, and the industry will continue to use 30fps. Nintendo loves their 60 fps, so I expect Mario to continue to be 30 fps. We won't get a new 3D Zelda till 2028, when the PS6 comes out, and I bet that they'll do the classic late gen, 30fps move.

 

[Cybergatuno]

While they are no longer small, I do hope they introduce a small clam shell portable only device down the line.

I don't see how decent sticks and shoulder buttons could work in a clam shell, but I definitely see the case for a Switch Mini.
Comparing to entry phones with comparable specs, some of which are $100-120, Nintendo could make a decent revision with modern tech for $149 with a healthy profit margin. It would bring new customers, specially in emergent markets.

But for a Switch 2, I'd prefer that they go bigger and higher in everything.
The device has to hold up for the next decade.