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StarTopic Future Nintendo Hardware & Technology Speculation & Discussion |ST| (Read the staff posts before commenting!)

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Thraktor said:
DLSS takes some amount of time to run, and the longer it takes to run the less viable it is at higher framerates. In an extreme example, if DLSS took 20ms to output a 4K image on T239, then it simply wouldn't be possible to run any game at 4K 60fps using DLSS on the hardware, even if there are some games which could run at 4K 60fps natively. I don't think DLSS will literally take longer than a full frame to run, but it's entirely possible that a 4K DLSS pass would eat into the frame time so much that it isn't really viable at 60fps, and devs will more likely drop down to ~1440p DLSS output resolution in 60fps games to free up resources.

Fair point on the game card slot being required for testing, but I would expect that in pre-release devkits like this it wouldn't necessarily have any relationship to the size and shape of a real game card reader, and it would more likely be some kind of breakout board with the necessary prototype hardware on it. Of course this may be the case, and they're just misinterpreting it as representative of the final game card design.
Click to expand...
Pre-release Dev Kits for the Switch had real Game Card Readers.

DLSS' frame time probably isn't extremely severe, especially since we see 4K60DLSS running in tests in the Nvidia leak, but some games might be demanding to the point that their frame time PLUS DLSS' makes DLSS at 60FPS impossible. I don't think it's likely to be an issue for EVERY game, however, and DLSS in some other games may reduce frame time overall by reducing render resolution.
 
Concernt said:
What throws me off about the "leak" image is:

4K30 (Some games should absolutely hit 4K60, like Mario Kart 8 Deluxe).

"CCDs" (Sounds very Nintendo but honestly kind of absurdist. What, our save files live on our phones now?)

10GB of RAM for games but 16 in the system? If this is in any way true, I imagine what's happening here is that 10GB for games and 2GB for the OS (seems like a lot for the OS) points to 12GB in the final system but 16GB in the dev kits.
Click to expand...
Don't devkits usually have twice the RAM as the retail units?
 
Nintendojitsu said:
Don't devkits usually have twice the RAM as the retail units?
Click to expand...
No, Nintendo Switch, except ADEV (Aula/OLED Model), all had 6GB. ADEV had 8GB and was an addition to the dev kit ecosystem made in 2021. 16GB for a 12GB system would make a lot of sense, especially since it would be difficult if not impossible to make a 24GB system with dual channel, 128bit memory with LPDDR5.
 
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kvetcha said:
The leak makes it seem like they are trying to revisit the asymmetrical play idea of the Wii U the way the original Switch revisited the off-screen play idea.

The 'CCD' idea seems like it represents a controller with on-board memory and a screen, a la the Dreamcast controller + VMU combo. On-board memory would allow people to bring their user profiles and saves to friends' houses, tracking progress, using their profiles in multiplayer games, maybe even picking up their saves on a friend's system, without necessarily having to bring a whole console along. Assuming the CCD is cheaper and more compact than the console itself, this might be an appealing option, especially for younger players; if you have several children sharing a console, the CCD gives them the option to go to a friend's house and play there with their own profiles.
Click to expand...
This reminds me of Miis on Wii Remotes and trained bots on Smash amiibos. It certainly does sound like Nintendo
 
kvetcha said:
The leak makes it seem like they are trying to revisit the asymmetrical play idea of the Wii U the way the original Switch revisited the off-screen play idea.

The 'CCD' idea seems like it represents a controller with on-board memory and a screen, a la the Dreamcast controller + VMU combo. On-board memory would allow people to bring their user profiles and saves to friends' houses, tracking progress, using their profiles in multiplayer games, maybe even picking up their saves on a friend's system, without necessarily having to bring a whole console along. Assuming the CCD is cheaper and more compact than the console itself, this might be an appealing option, especially for younger players; if you have several children sharing a console, the CCD gives them the option to go to a friend's house and play there with their own profiles.
Click to expand...
tbh i have no idea what "CCD" stands for but im guessing from this is that some part of saving chip or something.... if this is true, if im not wrong there is a patent/rumor/whatever some pages ago about a controller that could save profiles... i know i read something about that
 
toki98 said:
i've followed silently this thread for the last 300-350 pages, maybe more. First of all i want to thanks all of you, the thread sometimes goes nuts but it is fun and informative most of the times.
i have found this post on 4chan that went mostly ignored:



i know that 4chan leaks are unreliable and most of these infos can be derived by what we already knew and some patents but maybe there is something interesting?

p.s. My english is bad. Someone can explain to me what those ccd in the leaks are meant to be?
Click to expand...


I really hope that "some small gimmicks" includes dual-trackpads. I really love their implementation on the Steam Deck, and I feel like in the hands of Nintendo, they would work really well. Nintendo's ingenuity in game design could show how dual-trackpad could become a mainstream feature of controller design.

Just off the top of my head: it'd be a perfect solution to the issue of Wii pointer functionality in handheld mode (touchscreen just isn't the same) as well as working alright for DS games. It'd also be able to offer pseudo dual analogue when using a single 'Joy-Con 2' on its side - greatly expanding the possibilities for that control scheme.

Plus trackpads don't drift ;)
 
Ashee said:
tbh i have no idea what "CCD" stands for but im guessing from this is that some part of saving chip or something.... if this is true, if im not wrong there is a patent/rumor/whatever some pages ago about a controller that could save profiles... i know i read something about that
Click to expand...
The leak/rumor says 'Communication Companion Device' and that the placeholder device used in development has been a Switch Lite.
 
toki98 said:
i've followed silently this thread for the last 300-350 pages, maybe more. First of all i want to thanks all of you, the thread sometimes goes nuts but it is fun and informative most of the times.
i have found this post on 4chan that went mostly ignored:



i know that 4chan leaks are unreliable and most of these infos can be derived by what we already knew and some patents but maybe there is something interesting?

p.s. My english is bad. Someone can explain to me what those ccd in the leaks are meant to be?
Click to expand...

I tried to find the original thread with replies, for some reason it was deleted.
 
CCD just sounds more or less like Amiibo. A device that stores a profile of yours that can be read by another console.
 
I might be totally off-base, but if I understand correctly phones could be CCDs and give us StreetPass and Play Coins
 
Thraktor said:
DLSS takes some amount of time to run, and the longer it takes to run the less viable it is at higher framerates.
Click to expand...
I was under the impression that DLSS is effectively a fixed-cost operation - that is to say, upscaling to 4K takes basically the same amount of time as upscaling to 1080p. If a game can't hit 4K60 with DLSS, I don't think it could hit 1440p60 either. The only time save would be to cut DLSS entirely.

But I could easily be wrong. In fact, I'm probably wrong - I'm not an expert at all.
 
Yeah I am reading this CCD thing as a kind of VMU from the dream cast but for Mobile.

The use case I can see is that your switch will back up your profile to your phone when you are in proximity to the switch, then you take your phone out of the house you can do street pass with other people who use the companion app to earn stuff in game, or maybe even play companion apps on mobile?

For example, your profile gets carried over, you play some mighty doom on the playstore and when you get home and wake up your switch you get some items or skins in doom eternal.

Or I get the bus to work and back, I log into monster hunter and there were a few hunters on the bus so I get a few mega demon drugs.

Something like that could be fun. I always liked street pass but didn't take my 3DS out with me everywhere, switch even less so, but my phone is always with me. This would be very Nintendo.
 
Thraktor said:
The quick loading files is kind of interesting. I'm not sure if knowledge of the FDE has extended that far outside this thread, although it's not a huge jump to speculate that Nintendo may have some kind of solution for decompression, given both Sony and MS have. The claim of a custom decompression type called HLZ is an interesting one, and I had previously speculated that Nvidia could have implemented a custom compression algorithm for texture data similar to Microsoft's BCPACK.
Click to expand...

Hypothetically, if a compression algorithm was called HLZ, my guess is it stands for Hierarchical Lempel-Ziv. Almost all common lossless compression algorithms are based on Lempel-Ziv (and many of them have LZ in their name), and a hierarchical implementation that explicitly accounts for the block structure of texture data would make some degree of sense for a games console.

Again, I think this is almost certainly fake, but whoever made it up has at least put in a little bit of homework, and avoided common mistakes like pretending to know about every title Nintendo has in development, so I'm giving it a bit more time than I probably should. It's likely that they just searched for compression algorithms, found most of them contain the letters LZ, and just added a random letter on the start that I'm over-analysing.

kvetcha said:
The leak makes it seem like they are trying to revisit the asymmetrical play idea of the Wii U the way the original Switch revisited the off-screen play idea.

The 'CCD' idea seems like it represents a controller with on-board memory and a screen, a la the Dreamcast controller + VMU combo. On-board memory would allow people to bring their user profiles and saves to friends' houses, tracking progress, using their profiles in multiplayer games, maybe even picking up their saves on a friend's system, without necessarily having to bring a whole console along. Assuming the CCD is cheaper and more compact than the console itself, this might be an appealing option, especially for younger players; if you have several children sharing a console, the CCD gives them the option to go to a friend's house and play there with their own profiles.
Click to expand...

Revisiting any aspect of the Wii U seems like a poor idea, but you might be right. Might be easier than dealing with cloud saves for kids.

Concernt said:
Pre-release Dev Kits for the Switch had real Game Card Readers.

DLSS' frame time probably isn't extremely severe, especially since we see 4K60DLSS running in tests in the Nvidia leak, but some games might be demanding to the point that their frame time PLUS DLSS' makes DLSS at 60FPS impossible. I don't think it's likely to be an issue for EVERY game, however, and DLSS in some other games may reduce frame time overall by reducing render resolution.
Click to expand...

Yeah, the bolded is what I was getting at. I could see it being the case that, at 60fps, 4K DLSS simply eats too much into the frame time to be viable, or that heavily reducing rendering resolution to squeeze in alongside 4K DLSS could result in worse image quality than dropping to 1440p DLSS and rendering at a higher internal res.
 
Kise Ryota said:
Are you talking about an IMU with magnetometer? Because that can't make the tracking perfect; you still need to reset it many times. I did on wii u playing splatoon. I had to reset the camera like every 15 seconds.

The only way to have this (almost) perfect tracking is with a 6DoF solution.

Also:


If you're talking about positional tracking, that's another thing you can't do with a 3DoF system (like switch or wii u)
Click to expand...
I’ve been had, my life is a lie.
 
Thraktor said:
Yeah, the bolded is what I was getting at. I could see it being the case that, at 60fps, 4K DLSS simply eats too much into the frame time to be viable, or that heavily reducing rendering resolution to squeeze in alongside 4K DLSS could result in worse image quality than dropping to 1440p DLSS and rendering at a higher internal res.
Click to expand...


Depending on the game, though, it wouldn't be true across the board.
 
0
So, most of the talk is around Switch's power and SoC and graphics and stuff like that.

But how about other lesser but equally important details?

For example:

  • Are we expecting Nintendo/NVIDIA to use HDMI 2.1?
  • How about Bluetooth version? Maybe something similar to aptX Low Latency for headphones?
  • How about WiFi version? Are we expecting WiFi 6/6E?
  • Any information on the kind of RAM Nintendo will use?
 
Thraktor said:
heavily reducing rendering resolution to squeeze in alongside 4K DLSS could result in worse image quality than dropping to 1440p DLSS and rendering at a higher internal res.
Click to expand...
Upscaling to 4K from, say, 540p would undoubtedly look worse than upscaling to 1440p from 720p, but 540->4K would probably be quicker to compute than 720->1440p, based on my understanding of how DLSS works, because the bottleneck in that situation would likely be the time taken to produce the internal render, rather than the upscale.
 
alfiehicks said:
I was under the impression that DLSS is effectively a fixed-cost operation - that is to say, upscaling to 4K takes basically the same amount of time as upscaling to 1080p. If a game can't hit 4K60 with DLSS, I don't think it could hit 1440p60 either. The only time save would be to cut DLSS entirely.

But I could easily be wrong. In fact, I'm probably wrong - I'm not an expert at all.
Click to expand...
It's fixed for input resolution but scales with output resolution.
 
FernandoRocker said:
So, most of the talk is around Switch's power and SoC and graphics and stuff like that.

But how about other lesser but equally important details?

For example:

  • Are we expecting Nintendo/NVIDIA to use HDMI 2.1?
Click to expand...
no
FernandoRocker said:
  • How about Bluetooth version? Maybe something similar to aptX Low Latency for headphones?
  • How about WiFi version? Are we expecting WiFi 6/6E?
Click to expand...
We don’t know about this, I expect a newer BT version but I don’t know about newer Wi-Fi standards as they aren’t really commonplace I think.

That, or they get a good deal on a soc that combines the latest Wi-Fi and BT standard for a nice price.
FernandoRocker said:
  • Any information on the kind of RAM Nintendo will use?
Click to expand...
We know it’ll be LPDDR5 because that’s what ORIN used, and it’s based on ORIN
 
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FernandoRocker said:
So, most of the talk is around Switch's power and SoC and graphics and stuff like that.

But how about other lesser but equally important details?

For example:

  • Are we expecting Nintendo/NVIDIA to use HDMI 2.1?
  • How about Bluetooth version? Maybe something similar to aptX Low Latency for headphones?
  • How about WiFi version? Are we expecting WiFi 6/6E?
  • Any information on the kind of RAM Nintendo will use?
Click to expand...
-HDMI will probably be the same as the Dock with LAN Port, so 2.0b, 4K 60 HDR, maybe with subsampling. This is supported by the presence of DisplayPort in T239.
-Bluetooth could adopt AAC or otherwise, but AptX Low Latency is deprecated and licenced by Qualcomm, who doesn't make the SOC for Nintendo.
-WiFi 6 adoption has been poor, but I wouldn't rule it out.
-RAM will be 8-16GB (probably 12) of LPDDR5(or 5X).
 
Concernt said:
Bluetooth could adopt AAC or otherwise, but AptX Low Latency is deprecated and licenced by Qualcomm, who doesn't make the SOC for Nintendo.
Click to expand...
They said similar, not the same :p.


It would be something like what BT5.2 supports for low latency audio


They have their own low latency codec which is supported on that.
 
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Concernt said:
It's fixed for input resolution but scales with output resolution
Click to expand...
What do you mean? Are you saying that it always takes the same amount of time to generate, for example, a 4K frame, regardless of what the input resolution is?

If so, yeah, that makes more sense than what I had in my head. Still, though, I believe that it is still usually more optimal to reduce the internal resolution than to reduce the DLSS output resolution, especially if you're relying on DLSS to provide anti-aliasing - which is likely, given how Nintendo has basically been allergic to AA despite making it mainstream with the N64.
 
alfiehicks said:
I really hope that "some small gimmicks" includes dual-trackpads. I really love their implementation on the Steam Deck, and I feel like in the hands of Nintendo, they would work really well. Nintendo's ingenuity in game design could show how dual-trackpad could become a mainstream feature of controller design.

Just off the top of my head: it'd be a perfect solution to the issue of Wii pointer functionality in handheld mode (touchscreen just isn't the same) as well as working alright for DS games. It'd also be able to offer pseudo dual analogue when using a single 'Joy-Con 2' on its side - greatly expanding the possibilities for that control scheme.

Plus trackpads don't drift ;)
Click to expand...
It would allow kid Icarus uprising style control too
 
Nintendo finally adopting any kind of licensed low latency Bluetooth codec would be an absolute dream and I earnestly would use it so much more as a result, even while docked
 
alfiehicks said:
What do you mean? Are you saying that it always takes the same amount of time to generate, for example, a 4K frame, regardless of what the input resolution is?

If so, yeah, that makes more sense than what I had in my head. Still, though, I believe that it is still usually more optimal to reduce the internal resolution than to reduce the DLSS output resolution, especially if you're relying on DLSS to provide anti-aliasing - which is likely, given how Nintendo has basically been allergic to AA despite making it mainstream with the N64.
Click to expand...
the larger the gap you have to span, the longer dlss takes. going from 720p to 2160p takes longer than 1440p to 2160p (just in upscaling time, not the time it takes to render the input resolution)
 
Brofield said:
Nintendo finally adopting any kind of licensed low latency Bluetooth codec would be an absolute dream and I earnestly would use it so much more as a result, even while docked
Click to expand...
No I mean that BT has their own low latency Codec for audio that is supported on BT5.2 and later:

  • LE Audio that is built on top of the new 5.2 features. BT LE Audio was announced in January 2020 at CES by the Bluetooth SIG. Compared to regular Bluetooth Audio, Bluetooth Low Energy Audio makes lower battery consumption possible and creates a standardized way of transmitting audio over BT LE. Bluetooth LE Audio also allows one-to-many and many-to-one broadcasts, allowing multiple receivers from one source or one receiver for multiple sources, known as Auracast.[122][123] It uses a new LC3 codec. BLE Audio will also add support for hearing aids.[124] On 12 July 2022, the Bluetooth SIG announced the completion of Bluetooth LE Audio. The standard has a lower minimum latency claim of 20-30 ms vs Bluetooth Classic audio of 100-200 ms.[125]

Bluetooth - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org en.m.wikipedia.org

They can use that and be fine I think.
 
toki98 said:
i've followed silently this thread for the last 300-350 pages, maybe more. First of all i want to thanks all of you, the thread sometimes goes nuts but it is fun and informative most of the times.
i have found this post on 4chan that went mostly ignored:



i know that 4chan leaks are unreliable and most of these infos can be derived by what we already knew and some patents but maybe there is something interesting?

p.s. My english is bad. Someone can explain to me what those ccd in the leaks are meant to be?
Click to expand...

The part with „wider cartridges” makes this whole thing sound like a fake to me. Assuming his friend worked with a devkit, how could he know about cartridge size? Why would a devkit require a card slot, or why would catridge size measurments be included in devkit files?
I call shade
 
Bnois said:
The part with „wider cartridges” makes this whole thing sound like a fake to me. Assuming his friend worked with a devkit, how could he know about cartridge size? Why would a devkit require a card slot, or why would catridge size measurments be included in devkit files?
I call shade
Click to expand...
Nintendo Switch dev kits, and DS Dev kits, have Game Card slots. Debug carts, testing how a game runs with Game Card speeds, etc. They'd know it's "wider" because the slot on their Dev kit could be, well, wider.
 
0
ReddDreadtheLead said:
No I mean that BT has their own low latency Codec for audio that is supported on BT5.2 and later:

  • LE Audio that is built on top of the new 5.2 features. BT LE Audio was announced in January 2020 at CES by the Bluetooth SIG. Compared to regular Bluetooth Audio, Bluetooth Low Energy Audio makes lower battery consumption possible and creates a standardized way of transmitting audio over BT LE. Bluetooth LE Audio also allows one-to-many and many-to-one broadcasts, allowing multiple receivers from one source or one receiver for multiple sources, known as Auracast.[122][123] It uses a new LC3 codec. BLE Audio will also add support for hearing aids.[124] On 12 July 2022, the Bluetooth SIG announced the completion of Bluetooth LE Audio. The standard has a lower minimum latency claim of 20-30 ms vs Bluetooth Classic audio of 100-200 ms.[125]

Bluetooth - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org en.m.wikipedia.org

They can use that and be fine I think.
Click to expand...
Oh, well that's good then. How come the Switch currently uses SBC codec then? Does it not have BT5.0+?
 
Raccoon said:
I wonder if wider carts means no physical backwards compatibility
Click to expand...
I assume it would be similar to 3DS.carts vs DS carts

Not knowing how much wider though its just a guess but makes good sense as it makes Switch 2 carts physically too large for the OG Switch but the slot could still accept Switch cards
 
ILikeFeet said:
the larger the gap you have to span, the longer dlss takes. going from 720p to 2160p takes longer than 1440p to 2160p (just in upscaling time, not the time it takes to render the input resolution)
Click to expand...
So which is it, then? Does the time cost depend on the output resolution or the input resolution? Because I've now received two conflicting answers. Or is DLSS just not a fixed-cost at all? But I could have sworn that NVIDIA said that it is.

In any case, it should still be faster than native rendering, so my point still stands about it generally being preferable to save compute time by lowering the input resolution versus lowering the DLSS output resolution.
 
toki98 said:
i've followed silently this thread for the last 300-350 pages, maybe more. First of all i want to thanks all of you, the thread sometimes goes nuts but it is fun and informative most of the times.
i have found this post on 4chan that went mostly ignored:



i know that 4chan leaks are unreliable and most of these infos can be derived by what we already knew and some patents but maybe there is something interesting?

p.s. My english is bad. Someone can explain to me what those ccd in the leaks are meant to be?
Click to expand...

I can see them doing something akin to the DS -> 3DS cartridges:
Same exact dimensions, but 3DS cartridges have a tip at the side that prevents them from being inserted into regular DS consoles.
 
Raccoon said:
I wonder if wider carts means no physical backwards compatibility
Click to expand...
I very much doubt it would. However, if it isn't physically backwards compatible, I wonder how they'd even tackle digital-only BC. Would they just put up a middle finger and force people to buy the digital versions for $60? That would be a disaster, but I almost wouldn't put it past them.
 
0
alfiehicks said:
So which is it, then? Does the time cost depend on the output resolution or the input resolution? Because I've now received two conflicting answers. Or is DLSS just not a fixed-cost at all? But I could have sworn that NVIDIA said that it is.

In any case, it should still be faster than native rendering, so my point still stands about it generally being preferable to save compute time by lowering the input resolution versus lowering the DLSS output resolution.
Click to expand...
it depends on the output resolution. it is a fixed cost based on your input and output ratio
 
deletarek said:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/paulta...-kingdom-gameplay-sounds-great-looks-bad/amp/

And so it begins! (This is about the graphics btw)
Click to expand...
Let's not react like Nintendo fanboys and accept the truth: when it was released, the Nintendo Switch was indeed already technologically outdated compared to other HD hybrid game consoles available on the market. The very relevant Forbes journalist is also right to mention the games from 10 years ago. Everyone knows that the HD hybrid consoles available in 2013 were already at least as technically good.
 
ertaboy356b said:
Not sure if this has been posted but Wood from Beatemups managed to snag a Zelda Edition Switch. The surprising part is that the firmware is quite old.

Click to expand...


The only part of the tablet part of the Switch OLED TotK Edition that is different than the standard edition would be the back panel. Nintendo would easily be sitting on stock pile of Switch OLED tablets that either haven't had the back plates on them yet, or are easily swapped out when they decide to do a special edition. With that said, I would be curious to know what firmware is one Switch units being sold today? It seems that the Zelda TotK delay was indeed needed for game development and not to coincide with new hardware like I originally expected, so it is very well possible that they started to manufacture these special editions far ahead of time and seeing as how this firmware dates back to June of 2022, maybe Nintendo didn't expect the delay to be quite so hefty. A March 2023 release date could have been the original intent when they first announced the delay.

Since we are entertaining the 4Chan "leak", I find it hard to gloss over the whole "PS4 Performance" claim. If this leak were to end up being true and Drake is closer in performance to the PS4 than the Xbox Series S, then this would put 8nm back on the table, would it not? Seems like clock speeds of of the original Switch would be line up here. It would still be better than PS4, but just like Switch is a lot closer to PS3 than PS4, Switch Redacted would sit in a similar spot.
 
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